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12 battles of "(King) Arthur"

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    Posted: 23 Nov 2016 at 11:58
I was having this debate about the 12 battles of Arthur on Historum again in the last few weeks and they have just now unfairly banned ("suspended") me again ("for multiple accounts", because they refused to answer me when i asked whether i could come back or not after they unfairly suspended me over a year ago), so i have to find some other forum/s to post the evidences on the 9 battle sites of Arthur. (There are not anymuch very good history forums on the net/web.)

(I haven't searched past posts here on this but i doubt any/many topics already on this.)

Our discovery was that the 12 battles 9 battle sites of Arthur in the 'Historia Britonum' of "Nennius" match 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore forts of the Notita Dignitatum from Yarmouth to Portsmouth (plus 1 site in between). We also found that the Pa Gur's 9 battle sites also match the same HB & ND/SS & modern sites, plus the battle list of Gwallawg in Taliesin also seemingly maybe matches.

Table:
# HB/Nennius - ND/SS - modern sites - PG - Gwallawg/Taliesin?
1 Glein - Garianonum - Burgh - Tribruit 1 - Lleenawg?
2 Dubglas - Othona - Bradwell - Eidyn 1 - Eidyn?
3/4 Bassas - Regulbium - Reculver - Afarnach - Aeron?
4/3 Celidon - n.a. - Coldrum - Celli - wood Beit?
5/6 Guinnion - Dubris - Dover - Eidyn 2 - Arddunion?
6/5 Legions - Rutupi - Richborough - Dissethach - Gwensteri?
7 Tribruit - Lemanis - Lympne - Tribruit 2 - marsh Terra?
8 Agned/Bregion - Anderida - Pevensey - Ystawinguin - Agathes/Brewyn?
9 Badon - Adurni - Portchester - Mon(a) - Oleddyfein?

Map:
http://2rbetterthan1.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/map-12battleska-9fortsss2.png

Rough ebook thesis paper:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1600
(I once tried to post this and other ebooks here but the ebooks here doesn't work when i tried it.)

----------

Recently i had posted in my Historum blog a list of possible synonyms for each of the 9 sites.
http://historum.com/blogs/gold+heart/31698-candidate-synonyms-9-battlesites-arthur.html
I had then got the idea that a table for each of the 9 sits would be better way for people to see the many interconnections between matching sites of different Welsh/etc sources/lists which are not easy to show in lists or writing.

This is one on 3rd/4th battle/site Bassas / Reculver which i had intended to post but found been unfairly banned. (Hope the table comes out alright.)


Source

Bassas

Reculver (&/or near Rutupi)

Avalon

church

cross

ford

number/order

HB

Bassas



[see Wonders]

[see Wonders]

river, "shallow" / "ford"

3rd/6th

ASC 669

Bassa the priest

Reculver (near Rutupi)


(priest)


Wantsum-Stour


Reculver inscription

Basilica

Reculver (near Rutupi)


Basilica


Wantsum-Stour


ND/SS

Baetasiorum (from Baetasii)

Regulbium




(Wantsum-Stour)

4th/3rd

modern / historical


Reculver



Reculver Cross

Wantsum-Stour

4th/3rd

PG



Afarnach's

Hall



4th/3rd

12 Monasteries


Raglan


(monastery)



#

11 Consuls

Boso?

Rico/Ridoc?




"Oxford"

#

ASC 571

Bensington







Gwallawg



Aeron [or Gafran?]

[retreat?]



#

Children of Brychan



Afallach?

(Ilud?) or Marham church?

(Ilud?)


3rd or 6th?

DEB, HRB



St Aaron

(church?)



(in set of 2/3/4)

ASC/Ethelwerd 519



Avene?



Cerdicsford?


Wonders



Appled Ash? [Mysterious body of Levitating Altar may be Arthur]

(Levitating altar)

Levitating altar

Swelling ford/shallows?

10th

Triads



Afallach [Avalon]

Hall



10th/13th

Boron



Avaron




10th/13th

HRB


Riculf/Raculf






HRB



Akalon



(river)


24 Ks & 33 Cities

Caer Bosso?

Rhydycheu






Local Baschurch tradition

Baschurch


[Arthur's resting place]

Baschurch



[10th/13th]

?

Eglwysau Bassa "churches of Bassa"



Eglwysau "churches"




Canu Heleydd

Bassalig

[Campus Electi]








(If the table doesn't come out okay then you see it in similar post at
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36994&PID=717523 unless the thread disappears as a couple/few others have there occasionally.)
 
(Historum forum have me mad unfairly banning me, so i am posting this in a few forums.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2016 at 16:39
We shall also do a table on matches of all 9 sites between all the major sources now that we have got open office and pdf back.

Here is table for 8th battle site Agned/Breguoin / Pevensey/Anderida:

source

Agned /

Andred

(Cat)Bregion

Pevensey

Ystawinguin

Abulcorum

Downs

sorrows

fort

number/order

HB

Agned

(Cat)Bregion




(mt) "(white) hills/uplands"

"sorrow(s)" "death, massacre"


8th

ASC / Ethelwerd 477/491 / 756 / 893

(caer/coid) Andred


(Pevensey)

(Ashdown)


(South Downs / Ashdown)

massacre

(caer)


stamps/tiles

((H)on) Avg Ndr


(Pevensey)


(Abulcorum)

(South Downs)


(fort)


ND/SS

Anderida


(Pevensey)

(Hastings?)

Abulcorum

(South Downs)

(massacre)

fort

8th

stamps/tiles

(Anderida)

Cl Br

(Pevensey)



(South Downs)


fort


modern/historical

(Anderida)


Pevensey

(Ashdown?) (Hastings?)


South Downs


fort

8th

PG




Ystawinguin


uplands



8th

Gwallawg/Taliesin

Agathes?

Bretrewyn?




bre- "hill(s)"?

(defence?) "virgin martyr"?



HRB

Agned




Puellarum

(mount(ain) (Albani)

sorrow, maidens?

castle

[8th]

Bede



Peanfahel?


Abercorn / Abercurnig?

(Alcluith?)




Children of Brychan

Egloskerry / Egloshayle?

Berwyn?







#

Bergion brother to Albion


Bergion




Albion





The 12 battles ebook has more matches for Agned & for Breguoin/Bregion in Anderida/Pevensey area. (It is only possible to show so much in a table.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2016 at 16:41

Not sure if this table for 6th/5th battle/site city of the legion (Rutupi/Richborough) will fit in here or come out all right?

Source

Legion / Caerleon (&/or Locrin / Logres)

city

Rutupi / Triputiensis (&/or near Reculver)

Julius

number / order

Padarn

capital

river

Cross

Round Table / Amphi-theatre

Ceretic

oysters

wave

Camelot

HB

city of the legion (car-lion)

city of the legion (car-lion)



6th/9th


(city)








ND/SS

Legio 2 Augusta


Rutupiae

(Julius Caesar)

5th



(Stour)


Rutupi "red top"? Amphitheatre

(Caractacus)




Bede


city of Rutubi

city of Rutupi












Orosius / Lucan


civtas, orbs

Rutupiae












Ptolemy


town

Rutupiae












Juvenal?

[Lucrinum?]


Rutupi?












German inscriptions



Triputiensis












"Richard of Cirencester"


metropolis, city

Rutupi


(primary)


primary station, metropolis, of such celebrity that





oysters



modern / historical

(legio Augusta)

(borough)

Richborough

(Julius Caesar)

5th/6th



Stour

large cruciform platform

amphitheatre

(Caractacus)

oysters

(Ebbsfleet?)


PaGur


dwellings of Dissethach



5th


(dwellings)






fastness of Dissethach


11 Consuls HRB

Legecester

(cester)


Jugein?

5th










(11 Consuls)



(Rico/ Ridoc / Richiden?)


#










12 Monasteries

Leominster




7th/6th








Lann Llieni


ASC 571

Lygeanburg / Liganburh

"city", (burh)













Gwallawg / Taliesin





#


Lloegyr








Children of Brychan




Juliana?











DEB, HRB

"Caerleon"

city/caer


St Julius

(set of 3)





amphitheatre , Amphibalus?



(amphi-balus?)


ASC 540




calends of Julius 540











3 Solemnities Padarn




calends of July

(set of 3)

Padarn









3 Churches Padarn





middle or last?

Padarn



Again's Cross?






3 renowned cities / Beroul

Cuerlion

cuer / renowned cities



(set of 3)


(renowned cities)








HRB

Locrin(us)




set of 3


(Lloegria)








Wonders

Lynn Liuan (army)?

former rustic



6th




Cruc Mawr

Circling rock/mount

Cereticiaun


Lynn Liuan (ebbs), (omitted in Irish HB?)

?

Arthurian





9th

(Peryddon?)

(Peryddon?)


(Gawain's grave?)




9th wave Peryddon


24 Ks & 33 Cities

"Caerleon"

caer, 2nd Rome, chief city





2nd Rome, chief city of GB

"(up)on Usk"


?





Sts Lives


metropolis



set of 3

Padarn

metropolis







Campus Heli

Pa Halgan

Legeceastre

(ceastre), (burge)




St Paerburge?









Legend

city of Lions / Lyonesse

city







?




sunken / submerged


HRB

Tremounus of Legions


Tremounus




(archbishop/ metropolitan)


(Tremounus?)






Great Victory Arthur 540/640




540











Wace / [Beroul]

?

?



?


?



Round Table rotates like world




?

Arthurian

#?






?

...


?




Camelot

Irish HB Wonders

omitted








omitted

omitted

omitted

Limpets of Ceoil?

omitted


A source



Rocabarraigh?










Rocabarraigh


(St Patrick)

soldiers of Corocticus?

"father of citizens"?




Patrick?



Cruc...?


Coroticus?




[Ardrey]

[city of the legion]


Trimontium?






Trimontium?





?

Stephen of Bourbon

Lyon?




set of 2










Breton

Leon

Carhaix













Galician




Sant-Iago?



?







Compostela?

584

"Chester"

town



?

white stone?


(valley?)

(white stone?)




(valley?)



(The table is not quite complete, but it starts to show the many inter-connections vertically and horizontally.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 04:27

Here is a table on correspondences of all 9 battle sites between different sources.

source

1st

2nd

3rd/4th

4th/3rd

5th/middle / 6th

6th / 5th/middle

7th

8th

9th/last

12 battles, 9 battle-sites HB/Nennius, Irish HB, Liber Floridus, Higden

1 *aber/ ostium fluminis Glein/Gleni/Gleuy "mouth river Glein"

2/2-5 Dubglas "black water" (Linnuis "pools") [near Mersee] [Wygan /Witham?]

3/6 Bassas

4/7 silva Caledonis (cat coit Celidon) (Guinnoin in)

5/8 castellum Guinnion / *Alborum "fort(let)" + "white" (vs pagans / Saxons) (Mary, Cross, shoulder / shield) (in Caledon wood)

6/9 urbs/city of the Legion (Carlion)

7/10 (Trat)Tribruit / Ribroit / Arderit

8/11 Mt Agned / (Cat-)Bregion/Breuoin "(white) hills"

9/12 Badon hill/mt

9 ND/SS forts

2/1 Gariannonum

3/2 Othona (Limen fortenses)

4/3 Regulbium (cohors Baetasiorum [from Baetasii]

n.a. (in between)

6 Dubris (white)

5 Rutupiae "red top" (Legio 2 Augusta from Caerleon), Triputiensis, "city/civtas/orbs", [Lucrinum?]

7 Lemanis

8 Anderida (Abulcorum) ((H)on Avg_Ndr), (Cl Br), (Andred)

9 portus Adurni "height" (&/or Clausentum)

9 modern / historical actual sites

1 Burgh, Great Yar-mouth, Breydon Water. Garieni. Gar[ienno]. Gerne-mwa. (Spong Hill?Grimes Graves?)

2 Bradwell, Maldon, Ithancester, Lu(n)dan-byrig, river Blackwater, Witham, river Ei-du-mannia "element du black", Dengie Marshes, Mersea Island

4 Reculver, monastery-church, Reculver Cross, 'Basilica', Bassa the priest, Wantsum-Stour

3 Kit's Coty "battle + wood" & Coldrum, Pilgrims Way, Medway, Weald, Sylva Caledonia of Caesar, Sylva Eaglis. Countless Stones(can't be counted), Beult

6 Dover, white, Albion, St Mary in Castro, St Martin le Grand, Edinburgh Hill, Braddon, North Downs, W & E Heights, Colton, not far from a Snowdown

5 Richborough, large cruciform platform, amphitheatre, (Julius Caesar) (Caractacus), oysters

7 Stutfall, Lympne, Romney, Lliff Menai

8 Pevensey, South Downs, (Ashdown?), (Hastings?), ('(H)on Avg_Ndr'), (Andred)

9 (Bere by) Portchester, Portsdown Hill, Meon, &/or Bitterne, Southampton (geothermal)

"7"/9 PG battles/sites

1 Tribruit 1

2 Eidyn 1

4/3 Afarnach's Hall

3/4 Celli "grove"

6 Mynydd Eidyn, Eidyn 2 (vs Cynbyn)

5 fastness /dwellings of Dissethach

7 Tribruit 2

8 uplands of Ystawinguin

9 Mon(a) /"Anglesey"

# Gwallawg battles (Taliesin)

1 plain of Lleeawg [&/or Agathes?]

2 Maw & Eidyn [&/or region Bretrewyn?]

Aeron [& retreat Brecheinawc, Gafran?]

wood Beit & hunter Mabon

Arddunion "fortress height" [& Eidyn?]

Gwensteri, Lloegyr

marsh Terra

Agathes & region Bretrewyn?

end of wood of Oleddyfein? [&/or Eidyn?]

12 Monasteries

Glyn Rosin?

Martrun? Hodnant?

Raglan?

Colguan?

Glasgwin?

7/6 Leominster, Lann Llieni

Repetun?

Croyland?

Bathonia

11 Consuls

Morvid of Gloucester?


... [&/or Boso of Rico/Ridoc/Richiden /"Oxford"?]


Cursalen of Kaicester?

5 Jugein of Legecester, [Rico/Ridoc /Richiden?]



Urgennius of Bath

13 Wonders of Britain



Levitating Altar, Swelling ford? Appled Ash?

Amrs Tomb (can't be measured), Archen-field; Cabal's Cairn, Buelt? [Swelling ford?]

Sealess shore? DurRig Habren? [Pictish Palace?]

Cruc Mawr, Returning Plank, Lynn Liuan (army, ebbs), Circling Mount, omitted in Irish, [limpets of Ceoil?

loch Lumonoy


Hot Lake, Salt fountain, river Trahannon?

15 Children of Brychan

St Ive /Johannes

St Endellion /Endelient? Dyfnan / Duban?

Afallach? Minver /Menfre? or Marham? Ilud?

Mabyn /Mabon? Clether / Cleder?

7 St Wenn? Dyfrig? Iona?

Juliana?


Egloskerry? Egloshayle? Berwyn? Brynach?

14 Adwen /Advent (or Lanent?)

10 Glywys?

1 Gwynlliw /Gwynllyw? or 6 Gwrhai/Gurai/Gurinid

2 Etelic /Etelicchion/Edelygion

Margam? 4/3 Penychen?

3/4 Pedrog (no part)? Kidwely?

1 Gwynlliw/Gwynllyw or 6 Gwrhai/Gurai/Gurinid

principal seat? Crucmetil? Serugunid? Pedrog?

Margam?

Penychen?

Crucmetil?

7 servants of the Porter

1 Grynn




5 Gwrdnei cat's eyes




7 Clust(veinyd)?

ASC /Ethelwerd 571 (later re/taking by Saxons)



Bensington?

Aylesbury?

Egonesham /Ignesham?

"city" Lygeanburg /Liganburh




ASC 577?







Glewancester?


Bath?

ASC (no gains gap 519-552)

Cerdicsshore?

"London"

Avene / Cerdicsford?

Cerdicsleag?

Wiht-garas-burh?calends Martii 538?

calends Julius 540?



Sarum & Beranbury? Wibbandune?

Scilly / Lyonesse (analogousnamesakes)




Hoary rock in the Wood

Hoary Rock in the wood

city of Lions /Lyonesse?


St Agnes?


3 several battles, HRB/Geoff


Dubglas, "Lincoln", London


"Caledonian", London

"Bath"? "Alclud"?

?

"3 several battles"? "Lomond".

"Totness"? "Alclud"?

"Severn" & "Bath"?

W Saxons (Sayles) (ASC)(GYAM)

Wash, (Cerdics-shore?)








Solent, (Cerdic-shore?)

3 HRB




Kamber?

Albanact

Locrin(us)




2/3/4 Sts DEB/HRB



St Aaron


St Alban('s), "Verulam" / Uerolam-iensem

St Julius. Amphibalus?




3 battles Triads




Cad Godeu / Cad Achren

Arthuret?

Camlan?




3 Renowned Cities / Beroul





Isneldone /"Snowdon" "snow hill"

Cuerlion




3 solemnities Padarn





calends May?

calends July ; metropolis of Padarn / campus Heli




3 churches Padarn

maritime?


martime, or Again's Cross / middle?


Again's Cross / middle, or Great/last

Again's Cross / middle, or Great/last ; metropolis of Padarn / campus Heli



Great/last?

DEB/Gildas, AC/WA, Tysilio, HRB/Geoff, EH/Bede, Taliesin





siege Mt Badon (near "Win-chester") (feasts)?




Mt Badon (near Winchester) (feasts) / Baddesdown-hill / "Bath". (Posentesburh?)

Prophecy of Merlin





Guintonhi /"Winchester" (earth shall swallow)




Baths of Badon?

HRB





Alclud, Albani



Agned, castle of maiens, castellum Puellarum


PaHalgan





Martinus, Doferum. (Eafe?)

St Paerburge, Legeceastre

Limmingce?



Earls





Doorn?


Limours?



lai of Ywenec

Carwent?

Doglas?



Carwent? "Doglas"?

Carlion




Taliesin

gravel bank Garanwyn(yon)?




Dubriactus?





Avalon sources



10/13 Hall on isle of Afallach, Avalon (in North Sea), Avaron







Canu Heleydd



Bassalig



Campus Electi?




Galician (analogous)





Santa Maria de Bretona? Tower of Hercules?

Sant-iago de Compstela?




Breton (analogous)





Gwenedeg/Vannes?

Leon?




Vulgate cycle




fine hunting grounds Arestal

fortress on a lofty Saxon Rock in region of Arestal nearby narrows of Godalente





24 Ks & 33 Cities / HRB/Geoff




Green Shield

White Shield, Darian Las? Marsia /Martia & 'Caer Baris' / "Dorchester" "by the sea"? Castell y Morwynion / Mynydd y Tristydd? Gwenwissa/ Genuissa dtr of Caesar / Claudius? "Jerusalem"

"Caerleon"


?

Bladud/Bath /Badon?





Celidoine

Galafort (sign of cross)





Stephen de Bourbon (analogous)





St Guinefort (cyno-cephali)

Lyon?




584




green woodland

(white town / "Chester"?)

white town in valley - town of white stone / "Chester"?








wood-clad rock

Lofty wood-clad rock dinas Emrys? Vast insulated rock dinas Emrys?





Merlin sources



Merlin Avellenaw

Merlin Wylt, Merlin Caledonensis, MerlinSilverstris

[Car-marthen?]

[Car-marthen?] "Merlin's town Caerleon"




Fife (analogous)




Culdees?

St Mary on the Rock





St Patrick






soldiers of Corocticus? Patrick "father of citizens"? Cruc?









Camelot (marble, yellow)?

Camelot (marble, yellow)?




HRB, AC





St Dyfrig/ Dubricius (of Legions)

(Dubricius of) Legions, Tremounus of Legions




Landavensis






[urbs legionum or Caerlleon]




[Will of Worcester?]




se nemus

"Stirling"?

"Stirling"?




Sts Lives





Do(c)guinnus / Llanddyfrwyr





Round Table (Wace, Beroul)





Round Table rotates like world, siege perilous, at castle Snowdon "snow hill", at castle "Windsor"

Round Table rotates like world, at city of the legion / caer-leon




Tristan & Yseut




Coed Celyddon

Castle Dore? Castle of Snowdon? Castle of "Windsor"?

city of Lions / Lyonesse




Modena Archivoilt





"Guinevere", tower/castle, Galvarium





Urien (Taliesin)

Aberioed?


Aeron? ford? Inver?

underwood of Cadleu? (al-Clud?)Affair at head of wood?

Ulph? "ford" of Al-clud?Affair at head of wood?

Llwyvenydd?


Brewyn?

Cludvein? Affair at head of wood?

8 labours Turein /Turenn?





4th two steeds Dobar?







I will also do tables on each of the 9 battle sites showing correspondences of the details of each site as given in Nennius/HB and the matches with/in the ND/SS and actual sites. (2 columns: 1 the HB site details, and 2 the SS/actual site matching details.)

A few rows/entries may be wrong, but there are quality & quantity enough ones to be sure it is right.
So you can see that it is not just a "hobby horse" as someone on historum said a few days ago. There is no doubt about Dover being the major site in "Welsh"/Arthurian, and that the 9 battle sites of Arthur match the 9 Saxon Shore sites, as seen by vertical and horizontal matches in the table.

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Edited by truthsetsfree - 24 Nov 2016 at 15:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2016 at 13:05
From the table in last post we can see that it is not "no one knows" as another person there asserted days ago. (They think they know it all (and that they think they see there is no genuine history to the 12 battles list), and that everyone else doesn't know as much as them, and that they know better than us? Or perhaps it is a lie and it suits them to keep it "not known"?) Fact is they can't say "no one knows", because i know, though they think i know wrong, they can only say they don't know and that they think no one knows.
Btw Dover and Richborough seem analogous to prehistorical centre Salisbury (high) and a.d. capital London (low)?

Below: Table for details matches of first battle site Glein (Gariannonum/Burgh/Yarmouth).

“Primum bellum fuit in ostium fluminis quod dicitur Glein/Gleuy.”
Or,
“His/The 1st battle (in which he was engaged,) was at/[above/totheeastof] the mouth of the river ((which is) called) Glein/Gleni/Gleuy.”
(- "Nennius" 'HB', &/or Irish 'HB', &/or 'Liber Floridus'.)

(I put them in the table in the order of the quoted HB/Nennius verse. We see that "Nennnis" did not give so "scanty" details as some have asserted.)

Details of 1st battle site of Arthur (Glein) in HB of Nennius & other sources

Matching details of the actual modern/historical site (Great Yarmouth)

("his/he",) (dux bellorum) Arthur, and kings & military force of Britain/Britons.

Evidences for Britons in the area may include: History Files and wiki articles mention evidences of late British presence at Caerlerion, Caerwent, Colchester, Walton. Some say the fens were a refuge for Britons. [Ursicinus of Hoxne hoard?] Count Theodosius the brown bear? Caerwent of lai of Ywenec? St Leonard's on Mousehold Heath [cp Llwyn-arth]? "Norfolk has more large Anglo-Saxon cemeteries than the neighbouring East Anglian county of Suffolk". Modern genetic map posted on Apricity forum showed East Anglia less Germanic. "The dolichocephali, or long-skulled type of men, who, in part, preceded the English, have been found abundantly in the Suffolk region of the Littus Saxonicum, where the Celt and Saxon [Englishman] are not known to have met as enemies when East Anglia became a kingdom." "510-555 emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent". East Anglia "must have been loosely organised" "not enough to make the north folk and south folk forget their differences ... became separate shires...." (Yarmouth is near dividing line of Norfolk & Suffolk.)

1st (of 9)

2nd, but 1st excluding omitted 1st ND fort Branodunum. Ours is not just one isolated site but 9 sites all matching and all in order/numbers with an attested set of 9 sites.

battle

Possible evidences for battle there include the SS fort with possible traces of battle(s) there. Saxon Shore is strategic. Spong Hill graves? The name of Grime's Graves? Cerdicshore battle (ASC, GYAM)? Granfelden 675? St Mary in the Field? [One of the two sites (Burgh / Caistor) had some Saxon/Briton religious associations which may connect with battle there?]

at / above / to east of

Caistor is on north side of estuary? "on western edge of Caistor"? Burgh is on opp side of estuary, on eastern bank of southernmost part of Breydon water, few miles sw of Caistor, "w of Burgh Castle"? "Burgh Castle (Norfolk) near the mouth of the river Yare". .... The Yare flows from west to east and the mouth of the Yare is to/in the east

ostium/*aber/mouth. Ostium can mean either "vicinity to the embouchure of a river" or "door/entrance/mouth", or "confluence". "Nennius used ostium not aestuarium". Some scholar's proposed original *Aber can mean either "estuary" &/or "confluence, a river's confluence with another" &/or "(river) mouth, the mouth of a river at the coast".

Garien(n)i fluvii ostia / ost Gariennus flumen / Gerne-mwa / Great Yar-mouth. This site has a mouth, and a confluence, and an estuary. Burgh/Caistor is at mouths of 4 rivers. "Burgh Castle (Norfolk) near the mouth of the river Yare".

fluminis/river. "Nennius says/uses fluminis/fluvium not rivius". Fluminis/fluvium can mean "running water" and/or "river/stream".

Garien(n)i fluvii ostia / ost Gariennus flumen / river Yare (or Waveney or ...). One of the proposed meaning of Gariannonum is "babbling".

Glein/Gleni/Gleuy (name)

Garieni/Garienus / Gar[ienno] / Gariannonum / Gerne / Yare.

Some people scathingly adamantly assertingly "authoritatively" claim that Glein and Garieni are different roots (or that they are not able to say they agree because they and/or i are not certified linguists. However there is such quantity and quality evidences that all the 9 sites definitely match, and it must be 1 of these 4 certainly-possible solutions: Either Glein and Garieni are same/related name/origin (their linguistics are demonstrably only theory and not definite fact), or else "unreliable" Nennius did a clever pun (there are known/possible examples of such elsewhere in HB and in world history), or only the meaning matches the site not the actual name (and name is only Nennius'), or else we got wrong local name match and there is some other local name that matches. (Other names in wider area include Peter Gleane, Grime's graves, St Giles, and i think i saw a Glynde near there in Norfolk/Suffolk?)

meaning of name: The linguistic root and meaning of the name Glein is not necessarily definite, proposed meanings include: gleno "holy", or *glan/glen/glem/gem "pure (river)/clear/clean/bright/brilliant/gem", or glain "glass/crystal/gem", or glen/glyn/gleann/glin/*glinn "a glen, valley (of the river)/(river of the) valley, dale, head of the hollar, where a valley butts up against the mountain, usually with a spring" (related to klettr "cliff") or "mountain valley", or dyn Glan "man alive", or glind "fence, enclosure".

the linguistic root and meaning of the name Garieni is not necessarily definite, proposed "probable" meanings include: gar "ash", “shout, babble/babbling (river)”, or “rough”, or ear "gravel(ly)". Some of the meanings of Glein may match our site. There is a glass vessel at Burgh castle (as there also is at Dover) re the "holy", "glass" or "clear/pure" meaning. There is a cliff at this site, and the fort "underlying hillside, on summit of ground sloping steeply towards estuary of river Waveney, overlooking estuary/marsh. (Grandval 675?)

ostium fluminis Glein/Gleni "mouth of the river Glein"

Garien(n)i fluvii ostia / ost Gariennus flumen "mouth of the Garienus"

against Saxons

Saxons ranged from Wash to Solent. The "Saxon Shore". Spong Hill graves. Some say Cerdicsshore may have been at Yarmouth? One of the othodox theoretical criticisms of our thesis is that they think the s.e. quarter of Britain was all Anglo-Saxon. "Jews Way" (& "Jews Lane") (meaning enigmatic people). "Norfolk has more large Anglo-Saxon cemeteries than the neighbouring East Anglian county of Suffolk". "Roman and Saxon integration" in Saxon Shore fort(s) area. "British strategy seems to have been to allow Saxon landings and to then contain them, there." Of the SS forts "There has been no consensus amongst those who write about the transition from the Romans to the Anglo-Saxons." ....

before Ida c 547

.... (The dates of Burgh would seem to fit better than dates of Caistor.)

HB/Nennius (including Wonders)

Some wonders of Britain match a number of the 9 battle sites. Not sure if any Wonders do or don't match this site. Some possible Wonders that might match are ....

history

true historical actual site match. Haven't yet any certain historical chronicle matches but some possible candidates may include Theodosius? Germanus? Cerdicshore battle (ASC, GYAM)?

(island of) Britain

is in Great Britain

Indirect matches via intermediate: 9 HB battle sites match 9 PG battles. 1st battle Glein of HB matches 1st battle Tribruit of PG. Glein 1st battle of HB may match Grynn 1st servant of the Porter. Plain of Lleenawg of Taliesin may link with Glein?

Indirect matches: 9 PG battle sites also match 9 actual SS sites. The Breydon water at this 1st actual SS site also matches 1st battle Tribruit of PG. 1st servant ofthe Porter Grynn may offer intermediate between Glein/Gleni and Garieni/Gariannonum? Plain of Lleenawg of Taliesin may link with fields of Burgh site? Gravel bank of Garanyn(yon)of Taliesin may link with Gariannonum? Glass vessel at Burgh might link with Igraine?

Others not just me: Some others have also located an HB battle(site) at Gariannonum/Norwich (but Guinnion not Glein). No one has disproven our 9 sites match(es), they only reject it for 1 reason for each site (ignoring all the quantity and quality of our site(s) matches evidences). Prof Fields locates the 12 battles "up and down the east coast".

Others not just me: Some others have also located an HB battle(site) at Gariannonum/Norwich (but Guinnion not Glein).



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2016 at 13:50
Personally I would stop wasting the effort. No-one can pinpoint these battles because firstly the names are not linked to actual locations or with any linguistic connection that makes sense, and secondly, because there's no guaranatee they ever took place. Without secondary confirmation from period sources, investigating this blind alley is largely pointless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2016 at 05:46

That's the spirit, we'll never prove it (even more than already proven) if we don't look objectively/openly.

Yes i have since stopped wating the time and effort, but not because of lack of evidences/proofs, but because everyone refuses to fairly consider all our evidences, and because i have other things i need/want to do rather than waste "life" on this one thing that is not worth it. (And also, as you saw, historum unfairly banned me 3 times now (the last two really just the first ban redone).) But the truth is the truth, and i will not remove them from the net/web just because some people do not want the truth known (about the 9 battle sites, about me, about the establishment).

It is not true that "no one can pinpoint the battle sites". We have. It is everyone else who admit they can't and thus assume/assert we can't.

There is more to locating the battle sites than just "linguistic". We have good linguistic evidences for them, but people reject them for merely for Only one over-rigid wrong-theoretical reason for each site.

In the 9 battle sites table we gave heaps of secondary sources that seem to agree with each other.

Pick any of the first 6 battle sites and let us see whether the names really are or are not connected wiuth the locations, esp the middle 3. Guinnion "white" (and "Alban" and "Snow-don" and "white shield") suits Dover better than anyother site in Britain.

It doesn't matter whether they really took place or not. We have given quality and quantity evidences that the 2 (or 3 or 4) sets of 9 sites match at least literarily.
In our 12 battles ebook paper (link in first post) we gave some possible evidences of actual battles fought there then. Surely Welsh wouldn't have preserved imaginary heroic battles.

Once we can for sure identifiy the right date for each battle site then we will surelyfind even more evidences/proofs in more secular historical chronicles.

I don't want to antagonistically argue (esp mere words) with you/people. Why not pick a site (like say Guinnion) and discuss it? Don't you even want to give it a chance to see if might be true/right? (Not to just the couple/few more difficult ones though.)

Surely it is only fair the acknowledge the good/right points not just the seeming/supposed weak points. To tally up a list of good points and "weak" points".

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Edited by truthsetsfree - 02 Dec 2016 at 05:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2016 at 12:51
I'm not wasting anymore time on this except for answering any peoples questions. But i couldn't stop the need and urge to do a brief summary table just on the briefest 9 sites matches to try to show how it can not be coincidence that all 9 sites have quantity and quality matches all in order. But remember the table is only brief and doesn't anywhere near include all evidences and explanations in our 12 battles paper/ebook and posts and tables. I just can not understand how people can't see or accept any of the evidences, but as i said i have been forced to let it go and accept that people refuse to consider or admit.


12 Battles / 9 Battle-sites of "Arthur" in 'Historia Britonum' of "Nennius", Irish HB, 'Liber Floridus' of Omer, Higden.

The historically verified set of 9 actual historical/modern Saxon Shore sites (as in the 'Notita Dignitatum', etc).

1. ostium fluminis Glein/Glenii "the mouth of the river ((which is) called) Glein/Gleni"

2/1. Garianonum / Burgh/Caister / Great Yarmouth : 'Garien(n)i fluvii ostia' / 'ost. Gariennus flumen' "the mouth of the Garienus" / 'Gariannus Fluvius' / 'Gar[ienno]'. (Peter Glean? Glynde? Grime's graves? Iceni?)

2 (2-5). river Dub-glas ["black-water" / "blue-black"] (+ region Linnuis/Linnius ["region/district /polity /people/inhabitants (of) pools/lakes/ponds"]) (Near Mersee (Higden).)

3/2. Othona / Bradwell / Maldon : river Blackwater &/or river Ei-du-mannia/Eidumanis "element du "black"". (+ "Five Lakes near the coastal town of Maldon", "60 acres of beautiful parkland and lakes", "The Mid-Essex Coast Special Protection Area is of International importance as a wetland ..... means over millions of years, resulting in a landscape where lakes or ponds tend ...", "consisting of numerous lakes, ponds, boggy areas, willow swamp, scrub and", "Dengie Marshes". Lindsell/Lyndesele/Lindeseles/Lindezel, and Linford in Essex, and a Linford road East Tilbury? Lindsey in Suffolk? Limen Forteneses at Othona? Lu(n)dan-byrig? London?) [Two rivers Tamar & Limar?] Mersea Island.

3 (6). river Bassas ["shallow", or "ford", or "forehead"?]

4/3. Regulbium/Reculver : 'Basilicia' in Reculver inscirption. Cohors i Baetasiorum (from Baetasii) at Regulbium in ND. 'Bassa the priest' at Reculver in 669 (ASC). Regulbium/Reculver name means "at the promontory / great headland", and the fort "entrance faced north / on north side, facing the eponymous promontory". Episford/Ebissa? river Wantsum-Stour. [Two streams Rheidiol and Paith?]

4 (7). silua Caledonis ["wood Caledon"] (+ cat coit Celidon ["battle wood Celidon"])

0/3. The Weald (forest/wood) : 'sylva Caledonia' / 'Caledonia sylva' of Caesar's invasion (in Florus etc). 'Sylva Eegalis'. 'Anderida Silva'. Kit's Coty ("The Kit element has been interpreted as Categern or Battle and Coty as Wood, Coits or Stones and Small Cottage", or Keiton) & Coldrum, which 2 nearby sites are connected in Tradition and by Pilgrims Way. ["Green Shield"?]

5 (8). castellum ["fort(let)"] Guinnion/*Alborum ["white, fair, holy"] (Arthur's shoulder/s / shield", St Mary). ["Guinevere" in Modena Archivolt?] = Badon of AC/WA.

6. Dubris/Dover. White Cliffs. Albion. North Downs (chalk). Lighthouse. 'St Mary in Castro'. Glass Vessel. ["Guinevere" in Modena Archivolt? Y-Bryn-gwyn / Gwyn-fryn "White Hill/Tower" "facing France" of Bran story? Guintonhi/"Winchester" which "the earth shall swallow up" of HRB? Gwenwisa dtr of Caesar/Claudius in '24 kings & 33 cities'? "White Shield"? Guiderius? Kent is linked with Christ and St Mary in 694.] At Dover is "lost village of Braddon within Drop Redoubt on Dover Western Heights", "the ancient name of Braddon", "I would suspect that Bradden would more likely be on the highest point of the hill".

6 (9). 'urbe/urbs Legionis' "city of the legion" (+ Cairlion). [Lygeanburg/Liganburh in ASC?]

5. Rutupiae/Richborough. 'orbs'/'civitas' (Orosius/Lucan), "city" (Bede). Legio 2 Augusta (from Caerleon) (ND). A civil(ian settlement) and commercial town; "metropolis". [St Paerburge of Leg(e)ceastre in Pa Halgan? Lygeanburg/Liganburh in ASC? Synod 'Urbs/Urbis Legionum/Legion(is)/ligionis'/"Chester" 601/602 (different to battle 'Caer Legion'/"Chester" 613/614) (AC) ~ St Augustine synod at "Chester" ~ 'Augustine's Ac' "Augustine's Oak" "on the borders of the Hwiccas" c603?]

7 (10). (Trat/Traeth [“road/shore/bank(s)”, or “river + wider geographical context like a bay” / “not properly a river but an inlet of the sea, a tract of marsh, or other shallow and sandy place usually covered with water… such as… a quagmire”?]) Tribruit/Ribroit/Arderit [“tidal estuary + 3/crossing + rushing [river]”, or “a place where three rivers empty into an estuary”, [or bruit "brook"?], or “a strand or stretch of beach beside the sea at a place where three rivers come together”, or brwydr “(piercing/pierced (through)/(through-)pierced,) battle” / “broken through” / ”(strand of the pierced or) broken (place)” / [beach], “((the) pierced or) broken (through) shore”, or brisare “press out”?] [“the frith, or marshy channel, of the open or unenclosed habitation”].

7. Lemanis / Stutfall / Lympne / Romney / Lliff Menai. "Stutfall Castle seems to have occupied a broad point of land forming the north shore of a strait separated by a wide tract of marsh and sandbank from the mainland. This sea channel gradually disappeared to become part of Romney Marsh but excavation has demonstrated that the shoreline was originally 1.8 meters below the present level of the marsh. The siting of the fort and its Classis Britannica predecessor, with the command of this narrow estuary, made good strategic sense enabling it to control all shipping entering the harbour…." Rye harbour/bay; Denge marsh; Romney marsh (from aet_thaere_ruman_e “broad river”); Sandtun (tidal inlet); Rother(bridge) river/banks (tidal estuary); Tidebrook; Brede (tidal channel); Lemanis (intertidal areas); Lymne (banks). 3 rivers (Brede being one). 3 pronged inlet of sea in Roman times (maps). (Atrebates (border there)? Bibroci (border there)? 'Cl Br'? 'thetis_Rhutupinaque_littora'/"Rutupian shore"/Triputiensis? Ypres Tower (Rye)? 'Ripp (Wood)'? Trebeurden?)

8 (11). Mt Breguoin ["(white) hills/uplands"] / Agned ["massacre", or "sorrows", or "pure, virgins, lamb" [virgin martyr], or "pasture + headland"?] / Cat Bregion. ('castellum puellarum' "Castle of Maidens", 'montem dolorosum' "Mountain of Sorrow", near 'Albani' "white" (HRB).)

8. Anderida (fort) / Pevensey. 'caer/coid Andred' (477/491/756/893)? '((H)on) Avg-Ndr' tiles/stamps? Massacre here in 477/488/491. (Montague nw of Pevensey? Lower Agney? Mountney Level?) 'Cl Br' tiles/stamps? (Mt Caburn? Boulogne? Bre Regin? Bre Gwoden?) South Downs (chalk). Abulcorum.

9 (12). penetrated to Mt/Hill Badon, or Baddesdown-hill (Bede). (Most severe contest. 940/960/470 fell.) (Hot lake, bath(s).) ("Solsbury".)

9. portus Adurni/Adiuni/Ardaoni/Ardaoneon (fort) "fort/port of the height", Portsdown Hill, Portchester. [Mantuantonis/Mutu-antonis (Ravenna cosmo. # 69)?] B(i)eda son of Port 501 (ASC)? "After participating in crucial early battles on the rivers Medway and Thames, he [Vespasian] was sent to reduce the south west, penetrating through the modern counties of Hampshire, Wiltshire, Dorset, Somerset, Devon and Cornwallf". [Natanleod (slain with 5000 in 508) ~ gwledig Naw Cant Lliwed “ruler of 900 (warrior) companies”?] Southampton geothermal. Solent.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2016 at 14:27
Quote It is not true that "no one can pinpoint the battle sites". We have. It is everyone else who admit they can't and thus assume/assert we can't.

There is more to locating the battle sites than just "linguistic". We have good linguistic evidences for them, but people reject them for merely for Only one over-rigid wrong-theoretical reason for each site.


Rubbish. This is merely playing with ignorance by asserting lots of links that are dubious to begin with and trumpeting that you know better than anyone else. That's exactly the antiquarian style nonsense that has kept the Arthurian mythos alive in historical circles when it really does not deserve the attention it gets - one writer mentions that Arthur has wasted more words than any other subject.

The simple fact is each of those battles is described by no more than it's name - it is not possible to 'pinpoint' a battle by trying to play word games. treating this as a sort of puzzle is becoming typical of modern society and although it can fun, it also leads to incredible blind alleys and fallacies, such as the 'Blood Royale', the 'Holy Grail' or whether Adolf Hitler survived in Argentina.

IF you want to persist that's up to you, but inherently your arguments are not plausible to rational thinking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2016 at 17:41
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:


Rubbish. This is merely playing with ignorance by asserting lots of links that are dubious to begin with and trumpeting that you know better than anyone else. That's exactly the antiquarian style nonsense that has kept the Arthurian mythos alive in historical circles when it really does not deserve the attention it gets - one writer mentions that Arthur has wasted more words than any other subject.


Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:


The simple fact is each of those battles is described by no more than it's name - it is not possible to 'pinpoint' a battle by trying to play word games. treating this as a sort of puzzle is becoming typical of modern society and although it can fun, it also leads to incredible blind alleys and fallacies, such as the 'Blood Royale', the 'Holy Grail' or whether Adolf Hitler survived in Argentina.


Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:


IF you want to persist that's up to you, but inherently your arguments are not plausible to rational thinking.


I am going to try to post two replies. This first reply is mere words reply (like your post is Mere Words untrue assertion/accusation).
2nd reply (if able since i am in very bad situation & condition, and since pisses me off having to yet again for umpteeth time rewrite everything when people are too Lazy to read what we already hard-workingly wrote and/or just dismiss it anyway) i will actually pick one/some site(s) and try to show you that your points are not true by posting actual details contrary to your statement.

Ok fine its all just dumb wrong crap and i am just a dumb "irrational" "unplausible" "antiquarian" "nonsense" dog "playing on ingnorance" "asserting lots of dubious" links and "trumpeting i know better than. Just because you  say/assert so. Happy?

Stuff it i do not have the time and health and situation to refute such utter MERE WORDS untrue assertions (typical tactics the opposition always keep playing) yet again for the umpteenth time.

You orthodox Arthurians/academics/sceptics/graduates are the one trumpeting you know better than anyone else (me). I was merely trying to get fair consideration of our discovered matches evidences. Surely the more stuck up and closed minded are the ones who think they are all right gods and we are just all wrong dogs. No doubt if some academic had discovered it you[s] would all be falling over them in praise. But because a common dog like me did.... The record of the last 3 years shows everyone has constantly refused to give our case a fair hearing before dismissing it as supposed crap. I almost had a heart attack striving to meet the ridiculous unfair excessive demands all your type demanded, and when i did it was for nothing but that same old mere words assertions and silences/ignoring etc. Most of my time and effort in last couple of years has been wasted replying to such Mere Words lying assertions.

The tables, and the 12 battles and Wonders theses/papers/ebooks, etc have our evidences. Why should i waste my time Yet Again rewriting it all over again for nothing forthe umtpeenth time? No matter what i show it is all just ignored/evaded/dismissed/denied/covered-up.

If you think i and it are just crap thats your opinion only.

Some supporting links may possibly be dubious, but there are plenty enough quality ones, and the basic 9 battle sites match is certainly right.

Just because you assert  that the HB details are scanty and "impossible" doesn't mean they really are scanty or impossible. We onthe contrary show the details are not so scanty and are not impossible.

By your logic the 3 lists of disciples/apostles in the 3 gospels (or the zodiacal signs or 9/7 planets in different cultures) don't match because it is mere "word games" and only scanty details and impossible to match. And if we claimed we found the 3 lists match you would say we and it are "irrational" "unplausible" "antiquarian" "know better than anyone else". Thats what it is like, we have plenty of quality evidences that the 2/3/4/5 lists/sets of 9 sites match but everyone asserts/assumes we are just dumb wrong dog.

The HB/Nennius gives us a set of 9 sites not just 1 site. Each site he gives more details than just 1 name. The names also have very precise meanings. He also gives the Wonders too.

Your orthodox Arthurians on one hand tried to criticise us that we supposedly did not match the very precise technical meanings of the names, now you claim there is only one or scanty vague thing for each site.

Moreover the matches are not just one thing of one site, but many things of each site of 9 sites. The match is with another set of 9 sites that all match in order.

The only thing that matters is that actual matches evidences details. I am only interested in genuine intelligent fair objective discussion of the actual 9 sites matches evidences details not this sort of typical opposition mere words assertions/accusations/name-callings.

So you don't think Cruc Mawr can match the large cruciform platform at Richborough better than any other possible site in the world?
You don't think Silua Caledonis of Nennius/HB can match Sylva Caledonia of Caesar's invasion?
You don't think the meanings of Tribruit amazingly match our site?

I do not want to persist in wasting time answering these types of mere words lying accusations like you and others always doing.
The fact is you people force me to have to because you post unfair untrue mere words accusations/assertions that falsely make us out to be supposedly wrong. (If i have no unfair untrue to reply to then i don't have to.)

Holy Grail or Hitler had nothing to do with this. Don't blame others stuff on me. Don't just assume/assert we are that same as them.

You can not just assume/assert that it is not like a puzzle that may have a solution. What if you are wrong? Moreover our discovery was pretty much accidental and wholly objective, and the discovered match was stark.

I don't believe you even read the tables etc we posted.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2016 at 21:19
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:


Rubbish. This is merely playing with ignorance by asserting lots of links that are dubious to begin with and trumpeting that you know better than anyone else. That's exactly the antiquarian style nonsense that has kept the Arthurian mythos alive in historical circles when it really does not deserve the attention it gets - one writer mentions that Arthur has wasted more words than any other subject.

The simple fact is each of those battles is described by no more than it's name - it is not possible to 'pinpoint' a battle by trying to play word games. treating this as a sort of puzzle is becoming typical of modern society and although it can fun, it also leads to incredible blind alleys and fallacies, such as the 'Blood Royale', the 'Holy Grail' or whether Adolf Hitler survived in Argentina.

IF you want to persist that's up to you, but inherently your arguments are not plausible to rational thinking.


One wonders if its still the same old Saxons/Normans/Romans versus Britons/Saxons/Plebs, why are people so fighting against "Arthur" history?

Now here is Part/Post reply number two:

Here is a list of all the main details that the HB/Nennius & other sources give for the first 7 battle sites, which shows there is not only just one name for each, and shows that they are not all so "scanty" or impossible as claimed.

(Firstly :
There are more sources than just HB/Nennius (eg HB/Nennius, PG, AC/WA, HRB, LF, DEB, Taliesin, etc).
There are also the Wonders of Birtain in the HB, not just the 9 battle sites of HB.
First 3 literary and actual sites are all rivers sites; Middle 2 or 3 are settlements (and forest); Last 2 or 3 are all hills/mountains sites.
There are 9 connected sites not just individual 1 sites.
Each site has more details than just "1 name".
The odds/probability/chances are too incredible that so many details and sites and sources all matching (esp all 9 sites all in numerical/geographical order) is only coincidence or mistake/wrong or forced.)

For the 1st battle site Glein the HB/Nennius/Irish/LF gives us c13 details not "just 1 name"/"too scanty":
i - fought by "Arthur/Britons"
ii - number "1/1st" in a set of "9" sites.
iii -  a "battle" there (~ strategic, works/defenses/fortification) (British won.)
iv - "at/above/east of"
v - "mouth/confluence/ostium/*aber"
vi - "river/fluminis"
vii - (which is called) name "Glein"
viii - meaning of the name
ix - all 3 words "ostium fluminis Gleni/Gleni"
x - "against Saxons"
xi - date "before Ida" ["c 547"]
xii - in "HB/Nennius" (which also has the Wonders)
xiii - is "history"
xiv - in "(island of) Britain"
[xv - surely must also be in other Latin/Welsh/Saxon sources too.]

For the 2nd battlesite Dubglas the HB/Nennius/Irish/LF/Higden/HRB gives us c15 details not "just 1 name"/"too scanty":
i - fought/called by "Arthur/Britons"
ii - number "2/2nd" in a set of "9" sites.
iii - 4 battles there (~ strategic, works/defenses/fortification) (British won.)
iv - "on/above/east of"
v - river (like the first battle site)
vi - called/name Dubglas
vii meaning "black water" / "blue black"
viii - region
ix - name Linnuis
x - meaning of name Linnuis "district/people of pools/lakes/ponds"
xi - "against Saxons"
xii - date "before Ida" ["c 547"]
xiii - in "HB/Nennius" (which also has the Wonders)
xiv - is "history"
xv - in "(island of) Britain"
xvi - near Mersee (ref Higden).
[xvii - surely must also be in other Latin/Welsh/Saxon sources too.]

For the 3rd battlesite Bassas the HB/Nennius/Irish/LF gives us c12 details not "just 1 name"/"too scanty":
i - fought by "Arthur/Britons"
ii - number "3/3rd" in a set of "9" sites.
iii - a battle there (~ strategic, works/defenses/fortification) (British won.)
iv - "on/by/above/east of"
v - river/brink
vi - called/name Bassas
vii - meaning of name Bassas "shallow" or "ford" or ....
viii - "against Saxons"
ix - date "before Ida" ["c 547"]
x - in "HB/Nennius" (which also has the Wonders)
xi - is "history"
xii - in "(island of) Britain"
[xiii - surely must also be in other Latin/Welsh/Saxon sources too (eg "Baschurch", "Bassalig").]

For the 4th battlesite Celidon the HB/Nennius/Irish/LF/HRB gives us c16 details not "just 1 name"/"too scanty":
i - fought/called by "Arthur/Britons"
ii - number "4/4th" in a set of "9" sites.
iii - a battle/cat there (~ strategic, works/defenses/fortification) (British won.)
iv - wood/forest/silua/coit
v - name (silua) Caledonis/Celidonis
vi - name (Cat Coit) Celidon/Caledon
vii - meaning of name Celidon?
viii - "against Saxons"
ix - date "before Ida" ["c 547"]
x - in "HB/Nennius" (which also has the Wonders)
xi - is "history"
xii - in "(island of) Britain"
xiii - Guinnion in Celidon wood (in Irish)
xiv - London connection (HRB)
xv - Arthuret (&/or Merlin) connection(s).
xvi - Goddeu/Achren connection
[xvii - surely must also be in other Latin/Welsh/Saxon sources too (eg some others and us link it with Celli of PG).]

For the 5th battlesite Guinnion the HB/Nennius/Irish/LF gives us c17 details not "just 1 name"/"too scanty":
i - fought/called by "Arthur/Britons"
ii - number "5/5th" in a set of "9" sites.
iii - a battle/siege there (~ strategic, works/defenses/fortification) (British won. "flight"/"pursued"/"great slaughter".)
iv - near/at
v - castellum/fort(let)/fort(ress)/castle
vi- name Guinnion/*Alborum
vii - meaning of name Guinnion "White, fair, holy"
viii - Cross/"Lord Jesus Christ"
ix - St Mary
x - (carried/bore (up)on) Shoulders/Shield
xi - "against Saxons/pagans"
xii - date "before Ida" ["c 547"]. (1 day.)
xiii - in "HB/Nennius" (which also has the Wonders)
xiv - is "history"
xv - in "(island of) Britain"
xvi - Guinnion in Celidon wood (in Irish).
xvii - connected with Badon of AC/WA.
[xviii - surely must also be in other Latin/Welsh/Saxon sources too.]

For the 6th battlesite 'City of the Legion' the HB/Nennius/Irish/LF & HRB/DEB/etc gives us c# details not "just 1 name"/"too scanty":
i - fought/called by "Arthur/British"
ii - number "6/6th" in a set of "9" sites.
iii -  a "battle" there (~ strategic, works/defenses/fortification) (British won.)
iv - in/at
v - urbe/city
vi - legionis/legion
vii - name &/or meaniing of 'urbe legionis' "city of the legion"
viii - gloss called/name Cair_Lion
ix - "against Saxons"
x - date "before Ida" ["c 547"]
xi - in "HB/Nennius" (which also has the Wonders)
xii - is "history"
xiii - in "(island of) Britain"
xiv - Dubricius (HRB, AC?)
xv - Julius
xvi - Arthur's capital city
xvii - round table there.
xviii - inaccessible  at time of one of the sources writers.
xix - not far from Isneldone/"Snowdon".
xx - on the banks of a river
xxi - "David bishop of Merlin's town Caerleon"
[xii - surely must also be in other Latin/Welsh/Saxon sources too.]


For the 7th battlesite Tribruit the HB/Nennius/Irish/LF & PG/Triads/Carmarthen gives us c14+ details not "just 1 name"/"too scanty":
i - fought by "Arthur/Britons"
ii - number "7/7th" in a set of "9" sites. (Near Guinnion/Eidyn & Agned.)
iii -  a "battle" there (~ strategic, works/defenses/fortification) (British won.)
iv - (on)banks/shore
v - a/the river (or 3 rivers).
vi - meaning of 'Trat'
vii - called/name (Trat) Tribruit/Ribroit/Arderit
viii - meaning(s) of name (Trat) Tribruit [see the 9 sites table in post a few posts ago]
ix- last 3 sites hill sites?
x - "against Saxons"
xi - date "before Ida" ["c 547"]
xii - in "HB/Nennius" (which also has the Wonders)
xiii - is "history" (i.e. "Historia Britonum")
xiv - in "(island of) Britain"
[xv - surely must also be in other Latin/Welsh/Saxon sources too. (Manaw(yd), Pierced Shield, fell a 100 at a time, Bodwyr, ribs/timbers.)]

If you/they casually/callously reject/dimiss all these then i declare that no one can blame me for not wanting to be wasting any more of my time & effort re-writing any more (yet again for umpteenth time). Perhaps i have extended a few out too much but there are still far more details for each site than just your claimed one name or too "scanty".

I am not able to waste this week doing this all (again).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2016 at 10:50

A much shorter/simpler answer to Caldrail would have been: it seems to me that you[s] aren't considering all our evidences.

Cruc Mawr.

The fact that the Wonders of Britain also match the same sites as the 9 battle sites of Arthur, further confirms that our discovery is right and is not trash/crap like many others have asserted/assumed for the last 3 years (by opposition or by silence/ignoring).

Cruc Mawr (mawr/vawr means "big/large/giant") of the Wonders only-best matches the "large cruciform platform" at Richborough [city of the legion] combined with the Christian Cross.

Quote from the Wonders of Britain:

“There is another wonder in the region which is called Cereticiaun/Ceredigion / Cereciaunum/Ceretiaun/Ceretun/Ceretun/Ceretim/Ceretum. There is there a mountain, which is given the name Cruc Maur/Marc ["the great/big hill(ock)/heap/tumulus"], and there is a grave on the summit of it, and every man whosoever that will come to the grave and stretch himself out next to it, however short they will be, the grave and the man have been found within one length, and, if it will be that the man is short and small, similarly also it is found the length of the grave is like the height of the man, and, if he will be long and tall, even if he might be of length 4 cubits near the height of every man so the tumulus is discovered. And every wanderer who’s up to weariness, the man will bow 3 bows near that, he will not be beyond himself upto his day of death, and he will not be weighted down again by any weariness, even if he will go alone to the boundaries of the cosmos.”

In this following table we give the details of Cruc Mawr in the Wonders/HB/Nennius (left column) and the matches with our site (middle column) versus the orthodox site (right column). I can not see why/how orthodox Arthurians/academics/sceptics seemingly casually assert that we and our thesis is just all crap. This big X marks the spot and no one can say it can't match (equally if not more than their orthodox/traditional candidate).


Cruc Mawr (Wonders of Britain, Historia Britonum, "Nennius", Gerald of Wales, Evans)

Our candidate site of Richborough/Rutupiae ['City of the Legion'], & the Cross

The orthodox/traditional claimed site Banc-y-Warren hill/summit near [porth] Crugmore/Crug(mawr) farm (between Cardigan/Aberteifi and Lampeter/Pont-Stephen, Llangoedmore parish, Ceredigion, Wales). (Note: "actual location is still a little moot".)

is a "Wonder"

The large cruciform platform at Richborough qualifies as a wonder. The Cross/Crucifiction is stated by many to be one of the greatest wonders of AD western world history.


region "Cereticiaun".

[Perhaps compare Carannog/C(h)ernach, son of Ceredig, from Ceredigion?]

Cereticiaun could connect with either Caractacus of Roman invasion, or with Cerdic interpreter of Hengist (HRB), or with Cerdic/Cedric of West Saxons. Or, car/caer/cair can mean city/camp? St David was son of prince of Cereticu, and David has links with our south-east sites too. [Coroticus of St Patrick might also link with our site/area?] Cregcanford?? [Just to give the orthodox critics an excuse to trash it i will also add dubious/tenuous faint possibility of Crete & Thanet??]

Yes there is a cantref/shire called Ceredigion/Cardigan in Wales, but are there any other place/name candidates, and/or why can it not be a later namesake, or why can't Nennius have cleverly punned?

a "mountain" (& hill(ock)/heap/mound/tumulus, summit)

The cruciform platform at Richborough qualifies as a hillock/mountain/heap/mound. The crucifiction was also on or at the top of a hill (Golgotha/Calvary/'Skull Hill') too.

Yes theirs is a hill/summit, but doesn't also match other cross meaning.

name and/or meaning of "Cruc Mawr" (or Cruc Marc) "great/big hill(ock)/heap/tumulus/mound" [and/or "great/big/huge cross/crux/crucis/crucifix/crutch"] (and/or "yellow death" in HRB)

The "large/massive Cruciform platform" or quadrifrons at Richborough only best matches "big cross" better than any other site in Britain/World. The Crocea Mors in Geoff's HRB also is in area of Caesar's invasion. (The crucifiction was also on or at the top of a hill (Golgotha/Calvary/'Skull Hill') too.) Some other Cruc place names may also possibly match our Richborough/Rutupi & 'city of the legion' site (eg: Again's Cross of Padarn, Cruachan-Aichle of St Patrick)? (There is also place/name 'Stone Cross' at Sandwich, and 'the Cross' in Kent in maps/records.) [The "yellow" might link with "yellow" Camelot and/or 'Meil-ros' which also seem to match Richborough? (Compare yellow plague of Maelgwn of Rhos?) The platform is white & the building over/around it had marble.]

The small conical mound/hill &/or whole mountain site may match large hill(ock) but it doesn't match big cross. There are also one or two or three other place/name candidates (Crug Mawr mountain in Powys, Crugmeer farm in north Cornwall)? Craigmore in Antrim/Londonderry/Maghera)?) so which one of the 2/3/4 is it?

alternative name/meaning of Cruc Marc

x marks the spot? King Mark of "Cornwall" [~ Kent]? March/border? Marcus/Mark in Roman invasion?


tomb / grave (on summit) / tumulus

Evidences suggest that the cruciform platform at Richborough is certainly the grave or centoph or either Labienus/Laberius, or Julius/Aaron/Alban, or "Gawain", or Vortimer, or Brychan. The Christian Cross/Crucifiction / Calvary/Golgotha/Skull Hill is the death & burial site of "Jesus" Christ and of all Christians.

Yes there is a cairn on top, but otherwise pretty weak match with all the rest of the details.

fits everyman (short and long)

This fits the Christian ideas about the Cross/Crucifiction, eg “Jesus the perfect gift that fits every heart”. (Nennius was religious "Christian".) Also, one arm/bar of the Richborough platform (and of the christian cross) is shorter (& thicker) / longer (& thinner) than the other.)

How does the orthodox site only-best fit this?

4 (Roman?) cubits ["177.8 cm" or "259.6 cm"]

The 4 cubits of this wonder and the 20 cubits of the Font Guur Helig wonder may link with the arms of the cruciform platform at Richborough (since cubit is tip of finger to elbow of bent arm)? And/or it may link with Judaeo-Christian / Roman / British/Welsh / Frankish / Saxon cubits/heights? (Romano-British height 154.2-169.3 cm, 9th cent Northern European/Scandinavian height 173.4 cm, 12th cent Britons height 171.6 cm, Medieval avg height 171.26 cm, 2004 British mean height 177.2 cm. Romans and early christians and Saxons were mainly in south-east quarter of England/Britain.)


weary wanderers not weighted down anymore, not beyond self, even to bounds of cosmos. (Bows.)

This fits the Christian ideas about the Cross/Crucifiction. (Nennius was religious "Christian".)

How does the orthodox site only-best fit this?

3 (bows)

3 days (& 3 crosses & 3 nails) crucifiction (& the Trinity) perhaps? [Tremounus? Triputiensis?]


near preceding &/or succeeding wonders. (Is number 13/14/... / 13th/14th/... in set of 13/14/....)

The preceeding Wonder 'Amr's tomb' pretty certainly matches Countless Stones of the Medway megaliths [Celidon]. The next Wonder (in the primary version) 'sealess shore' apparently matches either the cliffs of Dover [Guinnion] or cliffs near Reculver [Bassas]. The next Wonder (in the alternative version) 'Brebic's stone (in a) cataract' may also match one of our south-east sites.

Some of the orthodox/traditional Wonders claimed sites are close but overall thay are scattered and have no other attested common connection as a set/group.

in the Wonders of Britain in the 'HB' of "Nennius" (which also has other Wonders, and also has the 12 battles 9 battle sites of Arthur). ("another wonder". Is number 13/14/... / 13th/14th/... in set of 13/14/....)

The other Wonders also match our 9 south-east SS sites. The 12 battles 9 battle sites of Arthur also match our 9 south-east SS sites. Nennius was traditionally reputed to have been at "Oxford" which seems to really be Reculver or Richborough in Wantsum-Stour area, or Epsford. "Nennius" was a "christian" so it is not surprising the connection with the cross.

Orthodox would have Nennius and/or Arthur romping massive lengths of almost the whole of Britain from Lomond (Wonders), to Wales (Wonders), to Anglesey or Isle of Man (Wonders), to Oxford (Asser), etc. Some claim that Nennius was in Wales/West not in Anglo-Saxon area, but I have not seen any really solid proofs/evidences for this.

is "Historia"

Ours matches with a real historical site.

Theirs matches with a real site but what is its attested history between Arthur/Nennius and 1188?

is in "(the island of) Britain"

is in Great Britain

is in Wales (which is in Great Britain)

omitted in Irish HB

Is it concidence that the 4 Wonders which we had found to certainly seem to match Richborough/Rutupi & City of the Legion are all 4 omitted in the Irish HB?


date (of HB/Nennius). (Before 1188.) (After Caesar's invasion, before Geoff of Monmouth/HRB.) (Omitted in the later date Irish HB.) [Arthur was "before Ida".]

Geoff's HRB has Crocea Mors in Caesar's invasion. Date/author of HB/"Nennius" is disputable/uncertain. Large cruciform platform has been at Rutupi/Richborough from "ca 1st cent ad" to the present, and may be grave/cenotaph of Labienus or St Julius or ..., or monument of Claudius invasion? [Eclipse calends Julius 540 (ASC)?]

[A king Ceredig died in 615.] [Arthur king/lord of Ceredigion died & solar eclipse in 807.] (Ceredigion mentions in 871, 894, 987, 992, 1072.) (A battle fought at/near the site in 1093/1094, and) Traditiional site recorded in 1188, Crug Maur farm mentioned in 1895, and is Modern candidate site. Some orthodox assert date of HB/Nennius is certain time/author, others say not certain time/author.

armour broken to pieces

Crocea Mors?


According to some sources Cruc Mawr or Cruc Marc seems to be connected with "Brychan’s sepulchre" which is in/near Mannia/Mynav. [Compare St Minver/Menfre in the 15 children of Brychan.]

Brychan's sepulchre seemingly matches either the Reculver Cross & Arthur's grave (& retreat of Brecheinawc/Gafran), or the cruciform platform at Richborough, or Medway megaliths. (Brycheiniog named from Brychan.) (Birchington?) Vallis/Valley of Brychan/Rosina/Wedale/Avalon fits Wantsum-Stour (and/or fits difference between Dover & Richborough). A "certain regulus" Brychan (Vita Cadog) may link with Regulbium/Reculver? There is a 'Minnis bay' near Reculver (& Richborough). "Nennius" analogously corresponded "Mon(a)/Anglesey"/"Man" and Thanet in the Wonders (and some versions of Watlling Str link both places at either ends).


The analogous later traditional site Banc-y-Warren hill/summit near [porth] Crugmore/Crug(mawr) farm (between Cardigan/Aberteifi and Lampeter/Pont-Stephen, Llangoedmore parish, Ceredigion, Wales). (Aberteifi/Cardigan which was an island.) ("Sand Pit".) (Aberteivi "the key to all Wales".)

Our site was a port. There was a font at Rutupi/Richborough. The metropolis of Padarn/Paternus seems to match Richborough/Rutupi & city of the legion. Peter in Kent in 601-3, 616/617-618. (St Patrick may also possibly link with our site?) Peter means Stone/rock which may match our site. Church of Stephen of Camelot may be church at Richborough or the cruciform platform building/structure at Richborough? Stephen as a first martyr may link (with St Julius/Alban, and) with Labienus of Caesar's invasion? (Our site is near mouth of river Stour/Wantsum.) In Roman times Rutupiae was (on) an island, &/or Thanet was an island. 'Sandwich'? Rutupi/Richborough fits key to Britain ('City of the Legion') (compare the Gwensteri and "subdue Lloegyr" of Gwallawg/Taliesin).

Their site can be a later analogous namesake.

[calends July & calends May 1093 kerediegean battle Wales.]

St Julius & Aaron & Alban of 'city of the legion'. Julius Caesar's invasion. Calends of Julius 540 (ASC/Ethelwerd). Calends of July of 3 solemnities of Padarn.


[surely must/may also be in other Roman/Welsh/Saxon sources.]

Many other sources seem to match this and the other 8 of all the 9 south-east SS sites (12 battles, Wonders, Pa Gur, 12 Monasteries, etc).

The traditional site can be a later "lifted" analogous namesake. Nowhere near as many sources qualitatively match the orthodox/traditional site(s).


Oh no thats right, i am just a "fringe"/"pseudo-science" "word games"/"sounds like" "Antiquarian" "Nibiruan" "nonsense" spouter, "playing with ignorance", "arguing negatives/lack of evidence", "not plausible" not "rational", with "no evidences" who "the burden/onerous of proof is all on", who "has been refuted", without "peer review", "repeating self like a broken record", who "thinks I am better than anyone else", "banned from Historum for same stuff last time" and many more things people have smeared me online with in last 3 years. And "Nennius" is just "unreliable" "lifted" etc. And "Arthur" is just "has wasted more words than any other subject", "a ship in a bottle", "fun", "embellished", "made up by Nennius/Geoff/Wace". And the 12 battles is just "only one name" or "too scanty" and "impossible" to match, and/or "can be found anywhere", and we only found it because "such a wide area", and "had wrong premise" and "forced it to fit". I "haven't done enough decades hard work", and "not good enough without references citations".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2016 at 14:04


This is a table on the city of the legion / "Caerleon" 6th battle site of 9th battle (of Arthur) (of Nennius/HB) briefly comparing match with our Richborough/Rutupiae versus 9 other mainstream hitherto proposed candidate sites. (We haven't done/finished all boxes/columns but there is enough for general information.)


City of the Legion / Cair Lion [of Arthur] (in HB/Nennius, Irish HB, HRB/Geoff, '24 ks & 33 cities', DEB/Gildas)

Richborough / Rutupiae (ND) (me, Evans) [& "Leomister" (12 Monasteries), & 'Liganburh' 571 (ASC)?]

Chester / Deva Victrix (Jackson, Peter Graham, local tradition, news, etc)

Caerleon / Isca Augusta / Isca Silurium, Wales(Geoff / HRB, local tradition, etc)

York / Ebrauc / Sextae (Hunt, etc)

Dumbarton / Kairlium (Skene, McHardy)

Carhaix, or St Pol de Leon, Leon, Brittany (Zoetropo)

Trimontium / Melrose , Scotland (Ardrey)

Carlisle (Wiki)

Exeter (OEC)

Portchester (Collingwood)

fought/called by Arthur/Britons

There are evidences of/for Britons in Kent around this time. Kent & Canterbury are British/Welsh names. Medway was border of Welsh & Saxons. ....

Britons/Welsh were not limited to Wales & Cumbria until after Chester in early 600s ad according to orthodox academics own sources. Chester 600s battle wrong/different leader.

The Britons / Welsh were not limited by Saxons to Wales and Cornwall until after Dyrham in 577, and to not Wales and Cumbria until after the battle of Chester in 600s according to orthodox academics own sources.(All 3 of Cornish, Welsh, Cumbrian retain Arthurian links.) "Wurdesten speaks of the Britons leaving their ancestral land when the Saxons occupied it"?




Britons were not limted to Cumbria until after Chester in early 600s. (Britons not Scots/Irish / Picts.) (All 3 of Cornish, Welsh, Cumbrian retain Arthurian links.)

Britons were not limted to Cumbria until after Chester in early 600s. (All 3 of Cornish, Welsh, Cumbrian retain Arthurian links.)

Britons were not limited to Cornwall/Devon & Wales until after Dyrham. (All 3 of Cornish, Welsh, Cumbrian retain Arthurian links.)


number 6/6th/middle in a set of 9 sites.(Near Tribruit, Guinnion, [and Celidon, or Bassas.])

Richborough is number 5 in an attested set of 9 battle sites which all match Nennius in order.

(Cross-switch match of 6th battle / 5th battle site confirmed between sources: City of Legion 6th (HB), Dissethach 5th (PG), Leominster/Lynn-Liuan 6th/7th (12 Monasteries), Lynn Liuan 6th (Wonders), Legecester 5th (HRB), Richborough/Rutupi 5th/7th.) City of the Legion is near Guinnion, and/or is near either Celidon, Bassas, or Tribruit.

Chester is not number 6/5 in an attested set of 9 battle sites which all match Nennius in numeric and geographic order. They can proove match on only one or a weak few of the 9 battle sites.

Caerleon is not number 6/5 in an attested set of 9 battle sites which all match Nennius in order. (though is inside 12 Monasteries area)

York is not number 6/5 in an attested set of 9 battle sites which all match Nennius in order. Sextae could possibly link but match is otherwise weak.


Brittany site is not number 6 in an attested set of 9 battle sites which all match Nennius 9 sites in order. (Though it is in 7/9 Breton saints)

NOT number 6/5 in an attested set of 9 sites (though Ardrey has an artificial/arbitrary set of 9 sites)

NOT number 6/5 in a set of 9

NOT number 6/5 in a set of 9

NOT number 6/5 in a set of 9 (is number 9/last in set of 9 SS sites)

a "battle" there (~ strategic, works/defenses/fortification) (British won.)

Is strategic (eg Saxon Shore). The fort and possible traces of battles fought there.

Not strategic at the time. Too far North and West. Not anymuch (West) Saxons (not Angles) there then. 613 battle wrong outcome. "Chester" 613 not mentioned in Chronicle of Werburgh?

Not strategic at the time. Too far West. Not anymuch (West) Saxons there then.

Not strategic. Too far North. Not anymuch (West) Saxons (not Angles) there then.


Not strategic; Too far away; Not anymuch (West) Saxons there then.



Not strategic at the time


in/at











urbe/city

Rutupi/Richborough was a "city" / "civitas"/"orbs" / "metropolis".

legion camp/chester may conflict with legion city/orbs? The 2 AC/WA city of legion entries maybe well be different places: synod ‘Urbs/Urbis Legionum/Legion(is)/ligionis’/"Chester" 601/602 (AC), and battle ‘Cair/Caer Legion’/"Chester" (brocmail/"bangor") 613/614 (AC). Nennius' 'urbs/city of legion' is different to his 2 legion cities in his cities of Britain list ('Cairligion/Cair Legion'/"Chester", and 'Cairlion'/"Caerleon").

Nennius' 'urbs/city of legion' is different to his 2 legion cities in his cities of Britain list ('Cairligion/Cair Legion'/"Chester", and 'Cairlion'/"Caerleon").








legionis/legion(s)

legion 2 Augusta. (Some arch-critics claim there was supposedly no legion there then at time of Arthur/Nennius, or that only part / garrison of legion not main base. The legion at Rutupi is closer date than the legion at Caerleon.) CoL is city of the legion singular which matches Rutupi. The plural legions may not be correct, or it may be 2ndarily correct. Legions plural could also match Richboroughi as landing place of Roman invasion legions, tho scholars dispute where the landing place was.

legion victrix. If they can claim our site supposedly didn't have a legion at the time of Arthur/Nennius, well then their own site certainly does not?

legion 2 Augusta at Caerleon legion was also later at Rutupi/Richborough. If they can claim our site supposedly didn't have a legion at the time of Arthur/Nennius, well then their own site certainly does not?

legion sextae


St Pol de Leon. Carhaix of Prince of Leon. Yet there is also possibly Lyon & St Guinefort of Stephen de Bourbon?





name &/or meaniing of 'urbe legionis' "city of the legion"

Nennius' 'urbs/city of legion' is different to his 2 legion cities in his cities of Britain list ('Cairligion/Cair Legion'/"Chester", and 'Cairlion'/"Caerleon"). [Lygeanburg /Liganburh 571 ASC may match city of the legion & Richborough in Kent in my opinion from certain evidences in ASC etc.] [St Paerburge of Legcester of Pa Halgan may possibly be in Kent?

[Chester is Romano-Saxon name?] "How Deva came to be the name of Chester or the Castra Legionis (whence the Welsh Caer Lleon) is not clear"? Orthodox and everyone can not even decide/prove which of their "only 2 (or 3) possible" sites (Caerleon or Chester (or York)) CoL supposedly is. [ASC 571 Lygeanburg/Liganburh can not be Chester.] "Chester" 613 not mentioned in Chronicle of Werburgh?

Was Caerleon called that before 800 ad? Caerleon (Romano-British name) was called Isca Augusta /Silurium? HB doesn't say "on Usk". [Lygeanburg 571 can't be Caerleon.] Orthodox are wrong to adamantly assert that there are only 2 or 3 candidates (Caerleon, Chester, (York)) because they're the only 2 known places called city/camp of the legion, & the 3 est legionary bases in Roman Britain. There were legions at some other places in history of Britain, incl at Rutupi.

York was not ever called city of the legion (though zoetropo claims it was somewhere). York was called York /Ebrauc /Sextae. Even orthodox academics favour Chester or Caerleon and don't favour York. [ASC 571 Lygeanburg/Liganburh can not be York.] CoL and York are mentioned as distinct places in Arthurian sources. Orthodox and everyone can not even decide/prove which of their "only 2 (or 3) possible" sites (Caerleon or Chester (or York)) CoL supposedly is.


Not sure any Brittany site was ever called city of the legion? St Pol de Leon. [ASC 571 Lygeanburg/Liganburh can not be in Brittany.]





gloss called/name Cair_Lion

legio 2 augusta at Rutupi was "from Caerleon".


CairLion is a gloss. Nennius doesn't say "(up)on Usk"


Cairlion is a gloss. Dumbarton was at some time called /Kairlium.






legio 2 Augusta(implied from "Cairlion" in HB, and "on Usk"(and "Augusel"?) in other sources). [month Aug/Sept?]

right legion (legio augusta from caerleon later at Rutupi), closest time.

wrong legion (Victrix)

the legion was at Richborough closer to the right time

wrong legion (Sextae)


Wrong legion?





"against [West] Saxons" [Cerdic, Colgrin, Baldulf] [not Angles].

There were many/much (West) Saxons there then. The (Anglo-/West) Saxons were mainly between the Wash and Solent (the 'Saxon Shore'). Colingwood said Nennius' words imply Arthur was fighting Kentishmen.

Not anymuch (West) Saxons (not Angles) there then. The Britons were not limited by Saxons to Wales and Cumbria until after the battle of Chester in 600s according to orthodox academics own sources.

Not anymuch (West) Saxons there then. The Britons were not limited by Saxons to Wales and Cornwall until after Dyrham in 577, and to not Wales and Cumbria until after the battle of Chester in 600s according to orthodox academics own sources.

Not strategic. Too far North. Not anymuch (West) Saxons (not Angles) there then.


Not anymuch (West) Saxons there then (though Saxon Shore is & Germanics were raiding both sides of English Channel). (Saxon Shore is either both sides or just British side?)





date "before Ida" ["c 547"]

The legion at Rutupi is closer date than the legion at Caerleon. [Calends Julius 540? Liganburh 571?]

Chester 600s ad battle is the wrong/different time/date. The later battle not just source would have been copied from the earlier.

Caerleon legion was later (closer to 547) at Rutupi/Richborough. If they can claim our site supposedly didn't have a legion at the time of Arthur/Nennius, well then their own site certainly does not?








in "HB/Nennius" (which also has the Wonders)

Some of the Wonders of Britain match Richborough/Rutupi, especially Cruc Mawr (large cruciform platform at Richborough), Lynn Liuan.










is "history"(ie 'Historia Britonum')











in "(island of) Britain".

Is in Great Britain. ["Britannia Minor" of some other source/s could refer to some minor-like prominent part/province/promonitory of Britain/Britannia such as the Downs/Weald/Kent/Albion?]





Brittany is not in the island of Britain





archbishop Dubricius / Dyfrig (HRB, AC?)

Richborough is near Dubris / Dover (&/or to Doruvernis/Canterbury). (Confirmed by Dubriactus in Taliesin?)

Does not have any Dubricius match like ours has. [The only possibility could be Deverdoeu [Dyfrdwy] but wouldn't be "linguistically sound".]

Does not have any indisputably concrete Dubricius match like ours has.

Does not have any Dubricius match like ours has. York was archbishop Sanxo.


Does not have any Dubricius match like ours has.





St Julius & Aaron & Alban & Amphibalus. [Leo/July?]. Jugein of Legecester.

Has match for 3 close to each other Sts sites (Julius = Richborough /CoL, Aaron = Reculver /Avalon, Alban = Dover /Guinnion).(Rutupiae built 277-285, & St Alban martyr 283?) Julius Caesar (& Laberius)? [Calends of Julius 540 ASC, & calends of July of Padarn match Richboorugh & CoL? Date of St Julius /Aaron is 1st of July.] CoL had a church of Julius, this might be the building over the large cruciform platform? [Church of Stephen at Camelot. Stephen 1st martyr.]

Has no match for 2/3/4 close to each other Saints sites (Julius/CoL, Aaron, Alban, Amphibalus). Chester has no provable St Julius origins connection. The tradition of Sts Julius & Aaron at Chester is admitted by investigators as weak/no evidence. Chester is not close to St Alban (though source claims Chester is "the white city"). Julius & Aaron can't be in two places at sametime (both Chester & Caerleon have traditional claims).

Has no match for 2/3/4 close to each other Saints sites (Julius/CoL, Aaron, Alban, Amphibalus). Julius & Aaron can't be in two places at sametime (both Chester & Caerleon have traditional claims). Caerleon has no verified St Julius origins match. Caerleon is not close to St Alban.

Has no match for 2/3/4 close to each other Saints sites (Julius/CoL, Aaron, Alban, Amphibalus). York has no St Julius (Julius Caesar). York is not close to St Alban except Scottish Alba / Albany.


Has no match for 2/3/4 close to each other Saints sites (Julius/CoL, Aaron, Alban, Amphibalus). Brittany does not have as good / strong St Julius [Julius Caesar] origins matches as Richborough / Rutupi does. Brittany is not so close to St Alban.





St Julius (& St Alban (& St Amphibalus)) (continued)

St Alban is linked with St Germanus. The grave of St Alban might be the cruciform platform at Richborough [& grave of Gawain at Rutupi /Peryddon?] (it may be grave of Labienus?) (Albinus Abbot of St Augustine's, Canterbury??) (Amphibalus is also in Winchester, while Arthurian "Winchester"/Guintonhi is Guinnion/Dover.) Julliberies grave?










"Arthur's capital". ("2nd Rome", "chief city of Britain", "principal archbishop" "loved & honored Caerleon on the Usk more than any other place"); "one of the most important cities in Britain"; "metropolitan see", one of "3 renowned cities".) ["Metropolis of Padarn".]

Rutupi / Richborough was "their primary station / the metropolis / this city was of such celebrity that" (ref "R. of C."). Is one of the best preserved Roman sites in Britain. ["Metropolis of Padarn". Taliesin's Gwensteri key to Lloegyr.] (Thanet also had a name that is similar looking/sounding to "Rome"?)

I don't think that Chester qualifies as this.









round table there. [Amphi-balus?]

Has very round / circular Amphi-teahtre and it is analogous to the amphi-theatre RT tradition of Caerleon, and the amphi-theatre RT tradition of Chester. Rutupiae "red top"?

The amphi-theatre Round Table tradition of Chester is weak.

No other evidence for Caerleon amphi-theatre RT tradition.








Caer Lleon and "Jerusalem" were built about the same time (ref '24 kings & 33 cities') implying it was close to a "Jerusalem" site.

"Jerusalem" (cross) is Uerolamiensem" / "Verulam / "St Alban's" (Gildas), which is Dover (white /Albion), which is Guinnion (cross).










"Gildas clearly states that this place [city of the legion] is unacessable to British people." (And/or, other sources seem to imply CoL was deserted &/or waste?) [CoL Wonders omitted in Irish HB.] Gildas says "neither to this day are our cities inhabited ... forsaken & overthrown" [which fits ASC 571 & 577].

It qualifies for inaccessible &/or deserted &/or waste.

"If this was Chester it would hardly be unacessable." Surely Chester was not uninhabited by Britons in Gildas' lifetime before the 613 battle of "Chester"?

It was not inaccessible (Gildas) or deserted or waste. "Wurdesten speaks of the Britons leaving their ancestral land when the Saxons occupied it"?



It was not inaccessible (Gildas) &/or deserted &/or waste?





Tremounus of Legions (HRB). [Trimontium / Mel-rose (Adam Ardrey).]

May link with Triputiensis/Rutupi, or Trinovantum/"London" (there are some possible indications of links between London & Richborough, though name supposed to be from Trinovantes not New Troy). [Or else Cruc Mawr?] [Mel-ros (& Rhos) & Wedale seem to connect with CoL / Richborough / Camelot & Reculver.]





Trimontium ["lifted / recycled"].





not far from Isneldone/Sinadon/"Snowdon" "snow hill".

Richborough is near North Downs (chalk), Dover (white, Albion), and a Snowdown.










on the banks of a river like the "Usk"

Richborough is similarily on the (Wantsum-)Stour. [Stour name may match similar names in some Welsh sources?]

Chester is on the Dee/Deva

Caerleon is on the Uske ["Uske" can be analogous / lifted / wrong]. Nennius doesn't say "(up)on Usk".

York is on/by Ure.







"David bishop of Merlin's town Caerleon"











[city of Lions / Lyonesse is between land's end & Scilly islands [in "s.w."]?]

Richborough is at analogous opposite s.e. lands end, and by Thanet (and/or archaelogists say Richborough/Rutupi was once (on) an island?) Richborough in east is sort-of analogous to Caerleon in west?


Caerleon is not really so. Caerleon in west is sort-of analogous to Richborough in east?

York is not really lands end.







[Lynn Liuan is at/nearby CoL (eg Leominster & Linn Liuan, Caerleon & Lynn Liuan, HB has both CoL & LL, Irish HB omits CoL / Richborough wonders). "The fastness/dwellings of Dissethach" of Pa Gur (5th) matches City of the Legion of HB (6th), and matches Lynn Liuan (6th in HB, 5th in 12 Monasteries).]

Lynn Liuan (& Dissethach) seems to match Richborough/Rutupi (or Ebbsfleet?) area then.










Aurelius /Ambrosius was Roman-blooded.


Chester is in the unromanised region of britain not in romanised region of britain in the map "Post-Roman Britain (Anglo-Saxon Cemeteries) (based on Jones & Mattingly's Atlas of Roman Britain)".









[CoL may be linked with number 1000(0) (via Carmarthen, via Taliesin 1000 sons)?]

[I sure i saw it said that Richborough/Rutupi held about 1000?]

"the II Augusta had reduced a lot [to 1/10]";

"Legio 2nd Britannica ... just 1,000 strong by then [ear 5th cent?]".










[CoL is maybe "down road from" a "Bangor" (& an abbey) site analogously like Chester is?]

"Bangor" & abbey might link with Reculver (& monastery-church) [Bassas / Avalon]?

Chester is "just down the road from Bangor"?









[City of legion is linked with St Paerburge &/or Werburgh? Metropolis of St Padarn? Llanbadarn?]

St Paerburge of Legecester in Pa Halgan may be in Kent? Metropolis/solemnities/churches of Padarn may match CoL & Richborough?

Chester's Werburgh can have been "lifted". [Werburgh female in some sources but male on some other sources.]









CoL had a church (of Julius) or minster ["Leominster"]. [Camelot had church of St Stephen.]

I think i saw that Richborough had a church, &/or it did have building over the cruciform platform.










Implied links with Paulinus, Augustine, Germanus.[Augusel?]

Augustine & Paulinus were in Kent. Germanus had links with St Alban who can only be in Downs. [Legio 2 Augusta?]

Germanus battle Maes Garmon near Mold [near Chester] is dubious. St Augustine synod at "Chester" ['Augustine's Ac' "Augustine's Oak" "on the borders of the Hwiccas" c603?] also seems dubious to me? (Though Ethelbert did extend his sphere to Humber.)




St Pol of Leon.





CoL and York are mentioned as distinct places in Arthurian sources. Nennius' 'urbs/city of legion' is different to his 2 legion cities in his cities of Britain list ('Cairligion/Cair Legion'/"Chester", and 'Cairlion'/"Caerleon").

Richborough is distinct from York, Chester, Caerleon.










surely must also be in other Latin/Welsh/Saxon sources too

Our site also matches Dissethach of PaGur, Gwensteri of Gwallawg, Lynn Liuan & Cruc Mawr of Wonders, etc. The extended version of Watling street links 2 city of legion candidates Richborough/Rutupi and Chester. Taliesin's Gwallawg battles seem to parallel Nennius' Arthur battles, Taliesin's Gwensteri key to Lloegyr corresponds to Nennius' city of the legion and fits Rutupi/Richborough. Mari Lwyd in Caerleon similar to Hoodening in Padstow (Petroc's, Cornwall), Kent, & Cheshire links 3 CoL sites?

A "Chester" battle is in AC/WA, but wrong name/words and wrong date and wrong outcome. The later battle not just source would have been copied from the earlier. The extended version of Watling street links 2 city of legion candidates (Richborough / Rutupi and Chester). Mari Lwyd (St Mary) in Caerleon similar to Hoodening in Padstow (Petroc's, Cornwall), & in Kent, & in Cheshire. This links 3 city of legions sites. West Chester implies an east Chester?

Amphitheatres of Caerleon, Chester & Richborough all analogous. Caerleon in west is sort-of analogous to Richborough in east? Mari Lwyd (St Mary) in Caerleon similar to Hoodening in Padstow (Petroc's, Cornwall), & in Kent, & in Cheshire. This links 3 city of legions sites. I have yet to check if the Mynde of Caerleon could link with our Cruc Mawr of Richborough (&/or Tremounus/Trimontium)? [Newport imply an old port??]

CoL and York are mentioned as distinct places in Arthurian sources. [ASC 571 Lygeanburg/Liganburh can not be York.]

Dumbarton/Dunbrettan "fort of the Britons/Britain" aka Alcluith (ail "rock" + river Clyde) actually points to being an analogous namesake "lifted" from Dover / Braddon [Guinnion / Badon] as the fort of Britons /Britain / Albion?

Gwenedeg/Vannes and Leon are only possibly analogous lifted/recycled namesakes of Guinnion and City of (the) Legion(s).





Supported by other scholars

Some other academics like Evans have suggested Richboroughi, they only dismissed it because they believed south-east was Anglo-Saxon.

Orthodox and everyone can not even decide/prove which of their "only 2 (or 3) possible" sites (Caerleon or Chester (or York)) CoL supposedly is.

Some orthodox academics favour Chester over Caerleon.

Orthodox and everyone can not even decide/prove which of their "only 2(or 3) possible" sites (Caerleon or Chester (or York)) CoL supposedly is.

Even orthodox academics favour Chester or Caerleon and don't favour York. Orthodox and everyone can not even decide/prove which of their "only 2 (or 3) possible" sites (Caerleon or Chester (or York)) CoL supposedly is.


Orthodox academics favour only Chester or Caerleon or York and don't favour Brittany.





All details of CoL (& all 9 sites) of HB (& all sources)

They rejrected all our quality match(es) evidences for this site for only one over-rigid theoretical reason. We have a CoL site and 9 sites match(es) which are far stronger in evidences than others' candidates theories.

They can not just base an identification on only one or a few details of the battle site (like name match) & 1 site or few sites not 9.










Can't really beat the Cruc Mawr table in last post though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2016 at 14:57
Quote why are people so fighting against "Arthur" history?

Because there isn't any. All we have are stories. It's a bit like people in fifteen hundred years time being thrilled by the tales of Arnold Schwarzenneger and wondering why history doesn't mention their cyborg hero taking on all comers. But then if you juggle the story content a lot who knows? Maybe you'll pinpoint the jungle pond where he got rid of the deadly Predator monster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2016 at 14:33
Well thanks for having responded to the thread/posts anyway. We have posted heaps of evidences here in this thread (and in other threads, posts, sites, papers, ebooks, articles) and i can't understand why you & others not read/see/considered/accept any of them. I thought the tables was a better way than previous writing attempts. There is no negative "juggling", things have positive matches, like cruc mawr matching the large cruciform platform at Richborough.
No worries anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2016 at 12:25
Not so long ago I watched Neil Oliver presenting his television series on British Celtic history. In one episode, he delves into the achievements of the Roman Empire and the effect that the Roman occupation had on the native population. Even he had to admit it was not a simple conversion as many assume, but two cultures living alongside each other, one politically and economically dominant, the other a traditional tribal society, and the inhabitants of Britain chose whatever lifestyle they were comfortable with, whether one extreme or the other, or as many probably did, a hybrid way of life combining features of both.

Yet right at the end he waxed lyrical about the cultural identity that the Romans brought with them. How the British were left with a concept of One Britain, One Kingdom, as a result of Roman oversight and control. Rubbish.

The truth is that when the legions had gone and the politicians were ousted, the British dropped the unworkable Roman system, and devolved back to what they had always been comfortable with. Writers of the time tell us how Britain became a land of turbulent petty kingdoms, almost the very same way of life the Romans had found when they stepped ashore with a mind to take away whatever wealth they found. The native ideas of a single Britain emerged not from foreign domination, nor even their own ambition, itself beset by rivals and migrants. What happened was the Anglo-Saxons.

As so often happens in history, when a powerful empire no longer controls a territory, you get violence and jostling for power. So it was in the Dark Ages, where native Romano-Britons, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Picts, and Scots wrestled for dominance. Our modern concept of a single Britain emerges not from the Romans, of whom Britain was a few provinces and external 'barbaric' lands, but from the empire building of those tribes seeking to rebuild or conquer a country from the ruin the Romans left behind. For all their power and civilisation, by the time that England was a possibility, the Roman world was nothing more than fireside tales, mysterious inscriptions, and piles of mossy foundations left behind when the builders came to take the stone for use elsewhere. Romano-Britain had not only been left behind, it had been dismantled.

It should not suprise anyone that the leader of this contest, the West Saxons, not only began the line of royal houses that would rule England and later Great Britain, but its system of law. Our courts are based on the laws Alfred The Great left behind, and he had revised those of an earlier Wessex king, Ine, who may well have reworked the legal system of his own kingdom. It is our inheritance of these cultural values and the pride that comes with success that have lead toward the British identity.

So what of King Arthur? Of course he was never a king. That was the interpretation and fantasies of the Middle Ages. And as much as we have tantalising glimpses of a real person, not to mention a plethora of well researched theories pointing at one individual or another, Arthur is strangely insubstantial. The reason is obvious yet unpalatable. For the very purpose of his legend is the very same reason we cannot accept the truth about him. Arthur was the hero of Romano-British propaganda.

Back in those dangerous times in the wake of the Roman withdrawal, things must have seemed dire. The Britons were disunited, facing foreign incursions almost from all quarters. The only way that these post-Roman tribes could survive was to act together, and the only way that was going to happen was if they believed it was possible. So Arthur came to the fore. A warrior whose victories were lauded and celebrated. But only ever a story.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2016 at 17:49

That is interesting thanks.

Though it doesn't change the discovered fact that  the 9 battle sites of "Arthur"/"Nennius" in HB do match the 8 Saxon Shore forts, and that they had seemed a mystery (though there is still alot more to flesh out), and that that is not just a story. "Arthur" was still pretty great to win the Saxon Shore from Yarmouth to Portmouth, and to be remembered so much in "Welsh" (like Gwallawg).

We so far half addressed the question of who "Arthur" is/was in these 2 places http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1599  http://historum.com/blogs/rob+banks/30905-who-king-arthur.html (and that his "Avalon/Baschurch" grave seems to be Reculver in the first table, and in other places/pieces).

I'm not interested in prpaganda or agendas, only that we made the discovery that the sets of 9 sites definitely match (and that it is only fair to at least just acknowledge our discovery and work, that we have at least just satisfaction it is appreciated).

Something else i was going to add i've forgotten.

I don't deny that the Saxons (& Romans/Patricians & Normans & academics/Arthurians & Aryans) have had their good/great/right things, but they have also had & still have their bad/wrong/propaganda things.

Yes he was a dux, but I don't see how you can say for sure he wasn't a king and say he is unsubstantial. (Not that i am saying he was a king.)

Julius Caesar as St Julius.

(The Romans were still empire rebuilding via Roman Papacy from at least time of Whibty to the present year.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2016 at 11:07
Quote only that we made the discovery that the sets of 9 sites definitely match

You haven't discovered anything. All you've done is played a few word games, juggle a few labels, and looked for the X on the map. Arthur is at the end of your rainbow, like it or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2016 at 18:02
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote only that we made the discovery that the sets of 9 sites definitely match

You haven't discovered anything. All you've done is played a few word games, juggle a few labels, and looked for the X on the map. Arthur is at the end of your rainbow, like it or not.



Prove it. You are just BSing, ruining/cluttering the thread/topic. Mere words assertions. (And don't say we have to prove it not you because we *have* spent hours, days, weeks, months,years re-writing umpteen times tons of evidences only to be ignored and have people say same old BS mere words "you have nothing".) The enemy is just doing this to waste my time forever rewriting spending rest of whole of "life" wasting my time. I know that they will hold out to the absolute uttermost longest possible refusing to acknowledge/admit it, using any and all possible excessive excuses, so this is it i am quiting now this is just wasting my time/"life" (i have already given quality and quanity enough evidences, and i could do it to their excessive maximum if i didn't have anything else to do in "life", but i have wasted too much already and not wasting anymore, there is no hope in self, world, mammon, fame, work, etc only in "God"). Either that or they assume they are all right gods and therefore that we must be all wrong dogs. Or else you/they are only willing to accept one/few certain types of evidences (like "5th"/6th cent contemp records).

For example, we gave stark evidences that Cruc Mawr matches the large cruciform platform at Richborough. But you just keep saying we haven't discovered anything. "Word games" and "juggle" is a lie. All words/names correspondences of world and history are not all just "word games" are they?

(I may not have anymore time to reply anymore but why not discuss actual site matches evidences rather than just mere words? (And not just the seeming one/few slightly more difficult one/s.)
What will you accept that Guinnion ("white, fair, holy") (and other 8) matches Dover (and other 8)?)

I did not "look for" Arthur. I accidentally found too convincing evidence(s) that the 9 battle sites match 8 of the 9 ND SS forts from Yarmouth to Portsmouth. Who the heck are you to claim/assert how we discovered it? Are you a mind reader? An outright opposite claim to how we already said how we actually accidentally made the discovery here http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1600 .

"Arthur" has nothing primarily to do with it. Our only thesis discovery was that the 9 sites of "Nennius" definitely match the SS sites.

Its not our thesis/discovery that we can't prove (to certain enough extent), it is other peoples motives we can't prove.

The truth is the truth "like it or not".

I am not seeking any rainbows except it is only fair to have discovery and hard work acknowledged. Just like an artist wnats their pictures seen, a poet/writer wants their poems/books read, etc (to know not just assume). I did not find Arthur of books/movies, i just found the 9 battle sites and Wonders of Nennius certainly match the 9 SS sites.

p.s. I forgot another piece i wrote on who "Arthur" could have been here http://historum.com/blogs/gold+heart/31681-nennius-gildas-re-king-arthur-bits.html . Though as we said our only thesis was the discovery that the 9 sites of Nennius match 8 of the 9 SS sites.

I am not replying anymore if you are just going to waste my time with same BS (untrue/unfair) mere words assertions. There is plenty enough evidences here for people to decide for themselves. I don't mind spending some time discussing decently actual evidences but i object to having to waste my "life" replying again and again and again to untrue mere words assertions and having to re-write the masses of our evidences again and again. Anything you say that i am not able to answer is not fair "disproof"/"proof" unless i am able to answer it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2016 at 00:07
truthsetsfree, maybe what you are saying is clear to you, but the your tables and their significance are not clear to me.  I wonder if you are assume for your reader a background in the issue that is not necessarily there.  Now it is true that reading ability has for many people become mushy, and that readers today tend to want to be spoon-fed.  Still, I am not sure what your point is other than you believe there is some historicality in the sites and their descriptions.  Is that correct?  Well, I cannot agree or for that matter, disagree, because I don't know the issue, and I am not about to make very much sense of your tables.  I confess that that is partially my fault, my inattention, but only partially.  I equally cannot agree with Caldrail, he obviously is familiar with the speculation.  But since he is disagreeing with you and since I don't 'get' what your saying, I equally can't get everything he is saying either.  I tend to think that there is something "historical" about Arthur, but perhaps only in the widest sense.  So is that what you are claiming, that these 12 battles can be matched up in description with 12 physical sites?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 09:48
Thankyou Franciscosan, i will try write an answer to your post (though in truth i am pressured more for time now than i was before).

I just came to post this that i had prepared since last post:

Another of the Wonders of Britain, since the Wonders confirm that the 9 Battle sites of Arthur do match the 9 Saxon Shore sites, and since this one may confirm Arthur's body was at Reculver.

The Levitating Altar. Quote from Wonders of Britain / Historia Britonum of "Nennius":

“There is another wonder in Gu(h)yr/Guiher/Gower/Gubir/Guhir :/- an/the altar(,) which (is) in (the place(, which is) called) Lorigaruch/Loyngarth/Loingraib/Llygraib/Loiguarch /Llwynarth/Lingarthica ["grove of the bear" or llymarch "an oyster"] ,/. it/which is heldup/supported(intheair) { by the will of god / , although the height of a man above the earth} . It seems better to me to narrate/tell the (hi)story of that/this altar than to stay/keep silent. Forithappenedthat/Butthefactis,while Saint Iltut(us)/Illtud was worshiping/praying in a/the cave/spelunca, which is near/nextto the sea, which washes/laps against the land/ground of/at the (afore)said place, ((for) the mouth of the cave(, also,) is on/to the sea), and(,) beheld/behold, a ship/boat was approaching/sailing towards him ( from the sea,) and two men (were)sailing her/it(,) and the corpse/body of a holy man was with them in the boat(,) and an/the altar (was/suspendedinair) above/over (the) face (of) it/his(,) which was supported/heldup by the will of god(.) and the man of god [Iltut] hasadvancedintheirway/wentforwardtomeetthem, and the corpse/body of the holy man(,) and the altar stayed/remained inseparably above/over/before the face of the holy/saint’s body.
 And they have said to saint Iltut(us): “that/this man of god (has) entrusted tous/usto (, in orderthatwemight) bring/draw him/thatperson to you and (we might) bury him with you, and (the) name (of) him/his you may/shall not reveal to any person/man, (so) that men may/should not swear by him.” (And they buried him, and after his burial ) Th(os)e two men wentback/returned to the ship/boat and (they have) sailed (away). But that/this saint Iltut(us) (has) founded/ established a church around/near/over the corpse/body of the holy man and around/near the altar(,) and it continues all the time to this present day the altar is supported/heldup by the will of god. A certain minor/pettyking/Regulus hascome/came to/,inorderthathemight test (it), carrying a twig/stick/rod in his hand(s); he hasformedacurve/movedit around the altar and (he has) held the twig/stick in/by both hands by/from both/either sides/end(,) and (he has) drawn/pulled it to(wards) him(self) in such a way the truth of that thing/matter he has proved/tested(,) and he/thatperson afterwards during the month uninjured/untouched died. Another (man)/(in truth [?for the truth]) under the altar (has) looked and the sight of the/his eyes (he has) lost(,) and before the/awhole month (had passed)/(uninjured/untouched) his life (he has) ended.”

(Sorry the quote iss abit awkward in a few places due to trying to combine different English versions.)

Levitating Altar (Wonders of Britain, Historia Britonum, "Nennius")

our site Reculver Cross, or Margate Caves [Bassas]

orthodox site/sites rock-arch by Knab Rock, & chapel on/nearby Knab Rock, close to “Bob’s Cave” on Mumbles Head, Ystum-llwynarth in Gower; or Wilson & Blacket's site cave at Ewenny, in Coed y Mwstwr forest

is number 10/9/last of 14/13/11/10 [or 9] Wonders of Britain of 32/31 / 27/26 / 21 / [21 or] 20 [or 19] / 20/17 / 13 / 10 Wonders. ("another wonder".)

[Evidence suggests that Arthur's grave at "Avalon" / "Baschurch" / "levitating altar" was at Reculver [Bassas]. Camlan is 10th/last after 9 battle sites of Arthur of Nennius. Boso of Ridoc is 11th in HRB.] The previous and following wonders also seem to match sites in same Kent or south-east quarter area, and they are all attested as connected in other sources (HB, ND, etc). (Next wonder the returning plank seems to have been at Richborough.)

i have not seen orthodox show if/how/that theirs is number 10/9/last? Orthodox have Nennius wonders jumping all over Wales & Britain (Lomond, Cardigan, Gwent, Buelt, Gower, Severn, Anglesey), and they are not attested as connected in any other sources.

is a "Wonder"

Reculver Cross qualifies as a "wonder". Arthur's grave is also called an eternal wonder is the grave of Arthur in Black Book of Carmarthen.

does their arch qualify as much as a "wonder" of Britain?

in Gu(h)yr/Guiher/Gower/Gubir/Guhir. [Gower is either Welsh "wedge-shaped piece of land" or "a goat/caper" or "on the right" or "man"?, or else is Norman place-name like Gohiere (region north of Paris) or Gouy which latter is from Roman personal name Gaudius.] Compare langemelach/llann Gyfiielach/llangyvelach/llann GyfUelach/llangyfelach, Gower/guhir/gwyr in 12 Monasteries list. Urien(s) of Gore [Voirre/Goirre/Gorre?]

Gower in Wales is a peninsula; Reculver is a "great headland/promontory". [Bassas may also mean "forehead"? Possibly compare the orthodox Mumbles Head?] (Sub-)King Guoyrancgonus of Kent? Guiderius just before Claudius invasion? Guhir is next after "Raglan" in 12 Monasteries list. [Will tenuously add that there may be an analogous traditional link of "Bangor" (in Arvon) "down road from Chester" with Reculver not far from Richborough [city of the legion]?]

yes their candidate site is in modern "Gower", but they refuse to consider if there are any other places/names candidates, and refuse to consider if it is an analogous namesake, or if there was any "lifting", or if Nennius cleverly punned/conflated. They should not just believe or reject a match only on one or few details not all the details/evidences.

Wilson & Blacket's is in Glamorgan/Gwent. [Gower is in westernmost Glamorgan.]

in Lorigaruch/Loyngarth/Loingraib /Llygraib/Loiguarch /Llwynarth/Lingarthica [Loyngarth/Llwynarth "grove/wood of the bear", or Llwyn garth "Grove/Bush/Scrub Hill/Enclosure", or llymarch "an oyster"]

Richborough/Rutupiae and Reculver are famous for oysters there. Rutupiae was thought to be (in) a wood in Roman source. St Leonards Church at Deal? [St Leonard's forest?] Loyngarth may link with Camas Longart/Longphort (on Loch Long), which may link with Camelot &/or Llongborth, which may link with Richborough/Rutupiae? (Arthur may mean "bear", and Arthur's 9 battle sites match the 9 Saxon Shore sites.)

Ystum-llwynarth/Llwyngarth/Llygraib "Llwynarth Bend [Bay?]" (~ Oystermouth bay, the Mumbles, Gower)? [Could be later analogous namesake or "lifting".]

Wilson & Blacket's site is in wood/Coed y Mwstwr forest.

"Levitating/floating altar". held up / supported (in the air) { by the will of god / , although the height of a man above the earth}. (Suspened in the air over face. Altar stayed/remained inseparably above/over/before the face.) ("under the altar (has) looked".) [Possibly compare Carannog's altar?]

the Reculver Cross and stone base/altar?* And/or the “altar chamber” at Margate caves?

* [The christian cross may be thought of as levitating &/or altar? 'Calvary Cross' has 3 steps base.] Might be confirmed in the cross being connected with Iltud at Llantwit in Wales (inscribed “Samson placed his cross here for his soul, the soul of Iltud…”)? The "height of a man" may link with Arthur's real size cross which was preserved at "Wedale" [which possibly may really be Reculver]?

[Alternatively, there was an arch or arches at Richborough?]

"a now-destroyed rock-arch which once stood by Knab Rock", or Maen Cetti "The Stone of Cetti or the Ark" (some seven miles distant, Gower)?

St Iltud. [Compare Ilud/Juliana in children of Brychan?]

“Iltud ordained by Dubricius” / “Dyfrig was the confessor of Iltud”. "Dyfrig/Dubricius (bishop) of Legions" connects with Dubris/Dover, or with Durovernum/Canterbury, or Durobrivae/Rochester, while the city of the legion is Richborough/Rutupi. Another source says Iltud ordained by Germanus? Germanus/Garmon (or Germans) more likely in south-east. [Not sure if Iltud could possibly be Gildas who was reputed to be at "Oxford"/Ridoc?]


cave/spelunca

the caves of Birchington? or (the “altar chamber” at) Margate caves? or Chislehurst caves? Arthur's Avalon may be connected with "hollow hill".

“Bob’s Cave” on Mumbles Head? "neither the cave nor the church have been identified". Evans says why Wilson & Blacket's cave at Ewenny / cave in Coed y Mwstwr forest doesn't match.

near the sea. (ship/boat.)

Reculver/Margate is near the sea. [Camlan may have been near Richborough/Sandwich or else at Sutton Hoo?]


mysterious body/corpse of the/a sancti hominis "holy man / man of god" [suggested by some to be "(King) Arthur"]

The mysterious body of levitating altar (& 2 men) may be "Magnanimous Arthur" (who bore cross at Guinnion/Badon) (& Bedver & Lucan (instead of 3 women)), esp since Llwynarth "grove of the bear" could link with Arthur "bear"; and the L.A. certainly seems to match Reculver Cross. Arthur's grave is called an eternal wonder is the grave of Arthur in Black Book of Carmarthen.

Avalon of Arthur is hall of isle of Afallach in Triads which matches Afarnach's Hall (4th/3rd) of PaGur which matches Bassas (3rd) and Reculver (4th). Avalon is in North Sea in Irish. (Arthur's Avalon may be connected with "hollow hill", which may link with Margate caves?) Isle ~ peninsula? Vale may link with Wantsum-Stour? [St Aaron of Legions? Avene/Cerdicesford? Urien's craggy bed & Arvon's shore & Bencor in Arvon?] Pomona & Reculver "promontory"? Appled Ash of Wonders also in area?

Arthur said to repose at Baschurch, which matches our Bassas (of Nennius) and (monastery-church at) Reculver.

Compare the retreat of Brecheinawc/Gafran of Gwallawg?

Arthur's grave supposedly at Glastonbury. Reculver has a connection with "former abbot of Glastonbury". Appled Ash & Glastonbury Thorn?

(Camlan may be "Bedcanford", and may have been near Richborough/Sandwich, or else Sutton Hoo?)

(Chislehurst is also connected with Merlin.)

[Alternatively, the body of Dover Painted house? Dover is Guinnion of HB & Eidyn 2 of PG. Arthur buried at Etna may link with Eidyn?]


a Church founded/ established around/near/over the corpse/body of the holy man and around/near the altar.

the monastery-church [of St Mary] built around the Reculver Cross. (Or else the “vicarage holy trinity church” at Margate? Or the church of the holy cross near these sites?) [Compare "Baschurch", which connects with Bassas and Reculver. Plus 'Eglwysau Bassa' "churches of Bassa". There is also a Basilica in Reculver inscription. Possibly also compare Wedale which also may connect back to Reculver?] [Marham church of children of Brychan link with Margate??] [Though very tenuous, there may be a traditional analogous link of monastery of "Bangor" (in Arvon) "down the road from Chester" with Reculver not far from Richborough [city of the legion]?]

"a chapel which may have been on Knab Rock or nearby"? "neither the cave nor the church have been identified".

"a certain regulus (petty king)". [Brychan is called a regulus in Saints Lives.]

regulus may possibly link with Regulbium? [Evidence suggests that retreat of Brecheinawc/Gafran of Gwallawg/Taliesin matches our Reculver / Birchington & "Avalon" / "Baschurch" / 'levitating altar'.] Riculf/Raculf (HRB)?


The L.A. is in (the Wonders of Britain in) the Historia Britonum of Nennius which also has (# other wonders, and) the 9 battle sites of "Arthur".

We have shown very quality and quantity evidences that the 9 battle sites of "Arthur" and also the Wonders of Britain of HB of "Nennius" certainly match the 9 Saxon Shore sites in the south-east quarter of England/Britain. Nennius (& Gildas, Melkinus, Kentigern, Germanus, etc) reputed to have been at "Oxford" according to Asser, but the traditional "Oxford" / Rico/Ridoc/Richiden/Rhydychen / Bos(s)o / Caer-Vembyr may really be Reculver near Rutupi & Wantsum-Stour [Bassas "shallow", probably the swelling ford/shallows of the Wonders, and possibly Cerdicesford/Avene], and Germanus etc were surely more likely in the south-west (plus Kentigern may link with Kit's Coty &/or Kent?) (There is also an Oxwich bay in Gower.) [Could the body of Dover painted house even be Nennius?]

Orthodox would have a "largely-fictitious/-unsubstantial" Arthur &/or "unreliable" Nennius romping all over Britain (except for south-east quarter) from Lomond, to Lincoln ("Linnuis"), to Chester ("city of legion"), to Anglesey/Mon(a) or Isle of Man, to Cardigan, to Gwent, to Gower, to Caerleon, to Hwicce, to Severn, to Oxford (Asser), etc. They do not have the 9 battle sites and the Wonders all matching same sites (eg is 1 of Arthur's 9 battle sites in Gower?) (They claim that "there is no necessity that the should match", but we discovered stark evidence(s) that they do match.)

is "history" (ie "Historia (Britonum)")

we have found an amazing real historical match and at about the right date

orthodox have a possible physical/traditional match but it is not really very certain ("neither the cave nor the church have been identified", "...may have been....") Local traditions/legends/rumours are hardly reliable.

is in "(the island of) Britain" (i.e. "(Historia) Britonum")

Reculver/Margate is (in Kent) in (island of) Great Britain. (Evidences from "Welsh" sources also seemingly suggest that the name Britain was especially connected with the Downs and Weald?)

orthodox site is in Gower in s.w. Wales in (Great) Britain.

the usual/orthodox location candidate for the Levitating Altar is at Ystum-llwynarth/Llwyngarth/Llygraib "Llwynarth Bend [Bay?]" (~ Oystermouth bay, the Mumbles, Gower). (Loyngarth from llymarch "an oyster"?)

Richborough/Rutupiae and Reculver are famous for oysters found there. Black Rock near Reculver? (Cf Bass Rock?)





[Levitating altar might match the pieces of Arthur's [or Andrew's] real size cross preserved at Wedale/Vallis-Doloris 6 miles west of monastery of Meil-ros "bare [or yellow] + headland / promontory / moor(land)", in province of Lo[n]donesia]

Reculver Cross, in monastery-church at Reculver "great headland/promontory", # miles n.w. of Richborough/Rutupi [Camelot "yellow"], not far from London. Vale/valley might match Wantsum-Stour?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 10:46

Sorry all of a sudden the connection keeps resetting everytime now since my last post and i can't view the topic/thread. I writing reply to Franciscosan but it won't load the thread/topic page. I had to cunningly use an old "post reply" address link in browser history (if this works). Sorry i may not be able to view/read and reply anymore since obviously the powers that be are getting more nasty trying to force me off xp & dialup onto win 7/8/10 and broadband fibreoptics or else go without net/web altogether, esp as it is now on eve of their 2017 year of evil, and/or trying to stop my historical discoveries truths being public. (I am also more pressured for time than i was before.) (I am not trying to evade anything, i have told people for a long time now that i am more time pressured and having more net/web problems and have no clean running water etc, and i have already tried answering so many similar posts of people on quite a few forums for the last couple of years, and tried giving our discovery evidences info in our rough ebooks theses papers on the 12 battles and the Wonders.)

Answer to Franciscosan. (I can't (re)read Franciscosan's post so not sure i answered it all).

In the Historia Britonum of "Nennius" is mentioned 12 battles of Arthur which are actually only 9 battle sites because 4 of the battles (numbers 2-5) are in the same place).
These battles/sites are: 1 ostium fluminisGlein (mouth of river Glein), 2/2-5 river Dubglas ("black water"/"blue black"), region Linnuis ("district of pools"), 3/6 river Bassas, 4/7 silua Celidonis (cat coit Celidon), 5/8 castellum/fort(let) Guinnion ("white/fair, holy"), 6/9 urbs legionis (city of the legion) (gloss cairlion), 7/10 trat Tribruit, 8/11 Mt Agned / Breguoin/Bregion ("(white) hills"), 9/12 Mt Badon.

We discovered that 8 of these 9 sites match 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore forts of the Notita Dignitatum from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth, plus 1 in-between site (Celidon matching Weald / Kit's Coty & Coldrum). The names/meanings and natures/details/geographies match, and they all match in numerical order which can not be coincidence.
(The 9 sites are 1 Garianonum/Burgh/Caistor/Great Yarmouth, 2 Othona/Bradwell/Maldon/Blackwater, 4 Regulbium/Reculver (Baetasiroum), 3 Kits Coty/Coldrum/Weald, 6 Dubris/Dover, 5 Rutupiae/Richborough (legio 2 Augusta), 7 Lemanis/Stutfall/Lympne/Romney, 8 Anderida/Pevensey, 9 portus Adurni/Portsdown Hill/Portchester/Portsmouth.)

To partially demonstrate some matches:

9 "Arthur/Nennius" battle sites -- 9 actual SS sites (from ND):
1 ostium fluminis Glein -- 1 Garieni fluvii ostia
2 Dubglas "black water" -- 2 river Black water / river Eidumannia "element du black"
3 Bassas -- 4 Reculver (Basilicia, Baetasiorum from Baetasii, Bassa the priest, etc)
4 silua Celidonis -- 3 silva Caledonia of Caesar's invasion (in Florus etc)
4 cat coit Celidon -- 3 Kit's Coty (source says can mean "battle + wood") + Coldrum (both sites connected in tradition and by Pilgrims Way)
5 castellum/fort(let) Guinnion/*Alborum ("white/fair, holy") (St Mary) -- 6 Dubris/Dover (white/Albion) (St Mary in Castro).
6 urbs/city of the legion -- 5 Rutupi/Richborough (legio 2 Augusta, called orbs/civitas/city/metropolis)
7th HB site Trat Tribruit's meanings match 7th ND/SS sites geographies descriptions

We also discovered that the Wonders of Britain also in Historia Britonum of Nennius also match the same 9 sites, eg Cruc Mawr matches the "large cruciform platform" at Richborough, Amr's tomb (can't be measured) pretty surely matches Countless Stones (can't be counted), etc. This thus confirms that the sites match is right.

Furthermore the 9 battles & sites of Arthur in the Pa Gur also match the same 9 HB/Nennius sites and 9 ND/SS sites. (See table in first post.)

Our only main thesis is that the 2 sets of 9 sites definitely match in names/meanings, and natures/details/geographies, and numbers all in order. We can not fully prove that the battles were actually fought there then, though we have shown that there are so far some seeming possible evidences for battles being fought there then. The dispute is thus not that the battles were fought there then but that everyone refuses to acknowledge the stark evdiences matches between the 2 sets of 9 sites (plus other lists/sets/sources too including the 9 PaGur sites, and the Wonders of Britain).

See "how we made the discovery" at:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1600
See 12 battles rough ebook thesis paper at
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101
See the Wonders ebook paper at
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=102
See the tables in this thread here and/or in similar thread/topic at
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36994
See PaGur sites rough first write up here:
http://historum.com/blogs/rob+banks/30903-pa-gur-battles.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2016 at 11:41

Ok I got through this time when posting the reply. Maybe it was avg interfering, or the 12 am time.

(re)reading Franciscosan's post i see the implied need to post some general background links for the 9 battle sites of Arthur and for the matching 9 Saxon Shore sites.

For background on the 12 battles / 9 battle sites of Arthur/Nennius see:
http://gorddcymru.org/twilight/camelot/infopedia/a/arthurs_battles.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sites_and_places_associated_with_Arthurian_legend
http://people.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/tag/king-arthur/
'Once Again Arthur's battles' by Kenneth Jackson (on Jstor etc)
http://theelf29.esy.es/arthur.html
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101
Plus for many hitherto 9  battle sites of Arthur loaction theories of orthodox and others see our lists of these at:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1539

For background on 9 Notita Dignitatum Saxon Shore sites see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Shore
or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saxon_Shore
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notitia_Dignitatum

For how we discovered that the 9 battle sites of Arthur/Nennius and the 9 actual modern/historical SS/ND sites match see:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1600
Map of our 9 battle sites matches at:
http://2rbetterthan1.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/map-12battleska-9fortsss2.png
And our tables in this thread/topic.
(Another table of our 9 sites matches is here:
http://historum.com/attachments/medieval-byzantine-history/8330d1429050630-arthur-one-camelot-many-camelots-arth.jpg .)

For the Wonders of Britain see
http://www.wondersofbritain.org/
http://people.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/category/arthurnet/
http://historum.com/ancient-history/21513-finding-13-wonders-britain.html
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t276580/
http://users.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/LiberFMarvels.html
http://users.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/LiberFloridus.html
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=102

For the  9 Pa Gur battles/sites see
http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/bbc31.html
http://www.mythiccrossroads.com/PaGur.htm
http://historum.com/blogs/rob+banks/30903-pa-gur-battles.html
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1540

("Who was "(King) Arthur"" is not a main necessary part of our 9 battle sites discovery, but we posted some on who possibly was Arthur here
http://historum.com/blogs/gold+heart/31681-nennius-gildas-re-king-arthur-bits.html
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1599
http://historum.com/blogs/rob+banks/30905-who-king-arthur.html
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1585
Plus for on Arthur's grave/Avalon being at Reculver see the tables here on Bassas and on Levitating Altar, and see the 3rd "Bassas/Reculver" chapter in our 12 battles ebook thesis paper.)

Quote of the 9 battle sites of Arthur from 'Historia Britonum' of Nennius (which can be seen at http://www.gutenberg.org/files/37848/37848-h/37848-h.htm ) :

"Then it was, that the magnanimous Arthur, with all the kings and military force of Britain, fought against the Saxons. And though there were many more noble than himself, yet he was twelve times chosen their commander, and was as often conqueror. The first battle in which he was engaged, was at the mouth of the river Gleni.[314] The second, third, fourth, and fifth, were on another river, by the Britons called Duglas,[315] in the region Linuis. The sixth, on the river Bassas.[316] The seventh in the wood Celidon, which the Britons call Cat Coit Celidon.[317] The eighth was near Gurnion castle,[318] where Arthur bore the image of the Holy Virgin,[319] mother of God, upon his shoulders, and through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the holy Mary, put the Saxons to flight, and pursued them the whole day with great slaughter.[320] The ninth was at the City of Legion,[321] which is called Cair Lion. The tenth was on the[Pg 409] banks of the river Trat Treuroit.[322] The eleventh was on the mountain Breguoin, which we call Cat Bregion.[323] The twelfth was a most severe contest, when Arthur penetrated to the hill of Badon.[324] In this engagement, nine hundred and forty fell by his hand alone, no one but the Lord affording him assistance. In all these engagements the Britons were successful. For no strength can avail against the will of the Almighty.

The more the Saxons were vanquished, the more they sought for new supplies of Saxons from Germany; so that kings, commanders, and military bands were invited over from almost every province. And this practice they continued till the reign of Ida, who was the son of Eoppa, he, of the Saxon race, was the first king in Bernicia, and in Cair Ebrauc (York)."

- Section 50 or 56 of Historia Britonum of "Nennius".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2017 at 12:50
Quote We discovered that 8 of these 9 sites match 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore forts of the Notita Dignitatum from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth, plus 1 in-between site (Celidon matching Weald / Kit's Coty & Coldrum). The names/meanings and natures/details/geographies match, and they all match in numerical order which can not be coincidence

No they don't. Your assertion is based on poor criteria and some some very expedient comparisons, and it seems a little odd that in all the studies of Arthurian myth no-one else has noticed. Sorry, I don't believe you. It might help if you explain why you think the sites match, especially since the descriptions are vague and could be placed anywhere.

Edited by caldrail - 11 Jan 2017 at 12:51
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 01:44
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote We discovered that 8 of these 9 sites match 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore forts of the Notita Dignitatum from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth, plus 1 in-between site (Celidon matching Weald / Kit's Coty & Coldrum). The names/meanings and natures/details/geographies match, and they all match in numerical order which can not be coincidence


Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

No they don't.


In your alleged/claimed opinion. Yes they do in mine (from all stark evidences i've seen).

Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Your assertion is based on poor criteria and some some very expedient comparisons,


Well it is true that i always include weaker seeming possible supporting evidences in my discoveries theses/papers/ebooks, and that possibly my standard of proof isnot as high as "academics" (ie theirs is excessively highest maxmimum "standards" incld presentation/style), but i totally disagree that ours is all "poor criteria" and "very expedient comparisons". I have tried to show examples of stark matches, i am not repeatedly doing it again and again.

Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

and it seems a little odd that in all the studies of Arthurian myth no-one else has noticed.


That doesn't prove/disprove anything. There are tons of things that were never discovered over long times by many people that one person suddendly found. Just because something supposeldy hasn't been found doesn't mean they didn't exist. Often they looked in the wrong time orplace because of limited mind ideas/opinions/theories. Quality in minority, rest in majority/quantity.
In fact others have suggested (from evidences) some of our sites before for either same or other battle site.

Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Sorry, I don't believe you.


I respect your right to disbelieve. I can not work out how to show you what i see (or for me to see whatever you see or don't see). At least this sounds like you genuinely don't see as we see and not a lie.

Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

It might help if you explain why you think the sites match,


I have already tried many times already on forums (worldhistoria, allempires, historum, arthurnet, atlatnisonline, etc) and in editions of our 2 battles and wonders papers/ebooks/theses.

Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

especially since the descriptions are vague


They may be a little bit but i don't agree that they are as vague as you have said alot. I have already given lists in post(s) in this thread on each 1 and all of the 9 sites listing how many details and combinations there are for each 1 and all 9.

Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

and could be placed anywhere.


No they can't be placed anywhere. Only one place is the true site and only the true sites only best match while all other sites don't only best match or match as well.

I had trouble loading this page again today, plus i have other troubles and things i need/want to do in my real "life" here so cannot be sure i can reply more. The fluoridated water forced on me here is still the worst problem that been majorly hindering me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 13:52
But I repeat - you have not got anything close to a definitive set of evidence either for location or actuality of the events in question. Whilst all the info you dumped above may or may be useful, depending on how accurate it might be, your methods still amount to playing around with words until you get a match you think is good enough. That just isn't close to a rational analysis, which without the evidence you actually need, remains at best an educated guess.

This idea that 'we' have pinpointed an obscure ancient battle is either a display of some very sloppy methodology or worse, nothing more than a con trick, the sort of pseudo-science practised by people like Von Daniken.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2017 at 00:52
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

But I repeat - you have not got anything close to a definitive set of evidence either for location or actuality of the events in question. Whilst all the info you dumped above may or may be useful, depending on how accurate it might be, your methods still amount to playing around with words until you get a match you think is good enough. That just isn't close to a rational analysis, which without the evidence you actually need, remains at best an educated guess.

This idea that 'we' have pinpointed an obscure ancient battle is either a display of some very sloppy methodology or worse, nothing more than a con trick, the sort of pseudo-science practised by people like Von Daniken.


Ah i think i see what the problem is:
I never said i proven battles actually fought there then. What i always said was we have very strong quality and quantity evidence that proves to beyond reasonable doubt level that the battle list (and also the Wonders) of "Nennius"/HB definitely matches the set/list of (8 of) the 9 Saxon Shore forts (of Notita Dignitatum) literarily.
Look academics are always claiming Literary matches between sources (a not very good example is matches between Protocols of Zion and Macchiaveli). Why can you not accept that the 2 literary sources/lists/sets of 9 sites certainly seem to match literarily?
Sure we haven't proven battles actually fought there then (though have given possible evidences for such). But it is academic dishonesty to deny that we have given strong evidence that the 2 sources/sets match literarily. "Nennius" could have just copied the list/set but made the actual battles up. (Other sources also strongly imply battles must have been fought there then. Modena Archivolt seems to show battle at Dover lighthouse. We have also shown some possible matches with battles in sources like ASC.)
I am not living in local UK, and do not have access to uni etc resources here. How am i supposed to be able to visit & explore/investigate the sites & local museums, interview people, etc? I request assistance to relocate to UK.

It is not true that i "playing around with words until you get a match you think is good enough". I have already said we discovered it Naturally almost totally by accident and that the evidence came readily and was too strong and too much to be wrong. We did not (have to) force anything, except that arch-critics keep forcing us to find even more evidences (as if we didn't already have stark enough) because they keep refusing to accept the 2 lists/sets match. The matches are stark, i can't understand why no one is even a little intrigued.

I am sick of people like you insulting me with words/phrases "sloppy, pseudo-science, con trick, Daniken", "playing around with words until you get a match you think is good enough", etc. It almost sounds like you are purposely just an elitist (ie that only stuck-up academic mafia snobs have the right to discover anything and (conveniently for you) too bad for anyone else that is disadvantaged, because yous want the truth and others stamped out for as long as possible). So fine i quit, i let the dirty crooks win and continue to rule the world with lies and crimes.
Some of these typical words/phrase insults sounds/looks/seems to me that you are assuming/asserting that (you/orthodox are superior and therefore) i am just a "pseudo-science". Perhaps there is something(s) in my paper/ebook/posts which mislead/detract/distract?

Otherwise i don't know what your/our/my problem is. Either you are wholly/partly wrong (or lying) or i am partly/wholly wrong or lying, or both are. And i certainly am not wholly wrong (or lying).
What are you saying/asking/demanding? That i rewrite my paper/ebook with rigorous reference citations for every evidence? (Again need assistance.)

I must thank you for having given this topic/thread so much consideration.

 -----

I add these bits to last post

I think the real issue here is that the academic establishment are being unrealistically too harsh expectations and wrongly think we are just "lazy". Without either pratcical assistance/help and/or pay/grant/scholarship/funding/sponsor/loan and/or tutor/peers/proof-reader, in my situation and condition i simply do not have the time, health, location, water, resources, morale, etc to be able to do a ten thousand word paper/thesis/book written in the only-one-way they demand (inllcuding references & pages-numbers citations, a summary of all hitherto ideas/info, etc). (Nevertheless i have already tried & done alot of work writing papers/ebooks/posts in the last few years on this Arthurian and on other discoveries/theses/theories admits a hell situation all for nothing but either nothing or negative.) I respect that there are some good reasons for such "standards"/rules/expectations, but i also think/feel that it is wrong to have it all rigged/set-up in a only-one ridiculous way that only suits some people. Quite a few academic papers i've seen thank others for helping them in various ways; no one has really helped me any-much while i have had plenty of hinderances. This tons of pages/paragraphs/sentences/words example of the way they expect things to be written is simply ridiculous, for Pete's sake not only would it take me years to write mine like that (if time/health/situation/assistance) but it took me a couple/few 12 hour days to read/study it ( http://www.fresnostate.edu/folklore/ballads/C117.html & http://www.fresnostate.edu/folklore/ballads/C117A.html , letters A to H) . Does anyone actually even lookup all the references that papers cite? No one has put a fraction of as much effort in to reading my papers/theses/ebooks/posts as i have put in to reading theirs or in to writing mine. (People on forums also often wasted alot of my time and effort diverting from the actual evidences/details in to me having to answer/argue unfair/untrue mere-words attacks.) I am stuck in NZ not in local UK, they could help me relocate. I have fluoridated water forced on me all the time. I have bad accomodation, neighbours/neighbourhood & location situation (and i can't get out to libraries any-much), they could help. I only have dialup and xp. I only have access to free web/net pages. I have other things i need and want to (also be able to) do. I am single at 43. Etc. Without assistance all i can do is what i have already done, and answer any  single/few questions. The academics etc are far more better off than me and are more likely to already know or be able to check any evidences for themselves (so while it may have some true reason value i don't see the need as absolute to have to rigourously reference everything).

There can be many reasons why people seemingly can't see/find or falsely claim they can't (eg not seen/read our info, fluoridated water, own pet theories, don't like it and "leave no stone unturned", "takes time to penetrate defenses", lying (holding out for own interests as long as possible), to scared to say so, i haven't written it in way they understand, obscure/weak/wrong things detracting from strong/right things, assuming). many reasons why i mightn't have been more able to better communicate the evidences.

We already have given stark enough evidences in my view. I can not get even more evidences without assistance due to fluoridated water forced on me, location, etc. They never give assistance which proves they are ingenuine in not admiting our discoveries.



Edited by truthsetsfree - 13 Jan 2017 at 01:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2017 at 10:08
Quote I think the real issue here is that the academic establishment are being unrealistically too harsh expectations and wrongly think we are just "lazy".

No, the academic world has long experience of satisfying important criteria in establishing correct analysis of evidence. What you just said confirms one of my possible assessments of your 'work', that of sloppy methodology. The reason you think you have found success is because you haven't the critical facility to see you haven't.

I'm sorry, but as much as I'm not a professional academic, even I can see your work is just a repackaging of the same Arthurian standards painted onto a different canvas. It really isn't convincing.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2017 at 23:07
I think that there is a difference between intellect and imagination.  In Medieval philosophy (Jewish and Islamic, not as far as I know Christian), the philosopher has intellect, but can only get himself and maybe a few students (very few) to the truth.  The prophet has intellect and imagination, he is not only able to touch the truth (or God), he is able to bring that truth to the people through imagination. Then there is the false prophet who has perfect imagination, but imperfect intellect.  Charismatic, but leads people astray.  And then there is everybody else, imperfect in both imagination and intellect.  People muddling along, which is most of us through life.  Myself included.
truthsetsfree, I agree with Caldrail that it is not convincing, but I am equally not convinced of the opposite, that there is no correlation.  I think that you have not made your case.  The burden of proof is on the affirmative of a position.  That is a standard rule of debate.  Now other rules may apply to other paradigms, if you were in a position of authority _rightfully_ or _wrongfully_, then the burden would be on others to figure out what you are saying, but that still doesn't mean that they could, intellectually or imaginatively.  There may be someone who could intuitively see what you are trying to say, but I am afraid that that is neither me nor, I would guess, caldrail.
On the level of imagination, I find Arthurian legends fascinating.  But it one thing to appreciate their mythic import, and another one to translate them into the "real" world.  It is not that it cannot be done, but I worry a little bit about what the point of doing so might be.  Interestingly, Hesiod thought that the mythic was the true, and the logos, "reason/logic" was the false.  I am not sure he was wrong, although he definitely was not scientific.  Hesiod is the epic poet who wrote the Theogony and Works and Days, some accounts proclaimed that he was greater than Homer because Hesiod wrote on peace, while Homer wrote on war.  Peace is greater than war.

I would suggest looking at Heinrich Schliemann, Milman Parry and Michael Ventris.  They are all individuals who revolutionized the way we look at antiquity, and none of them were mainstream academics.  Academics have their purpose, but great intuitive leaps is not in their game plan, small, incremental gains, yes.  Safety, yes.  Large leaps, no.  They typically can not see the forest for the trees, and if you expect them to see it, you are expecting the wrong thing.  There are of course, exceptions to the rule.  But appreciate them for what they are, not for what they are not.

I would be surprised if they didn't have a filtration system that you could buy that would take out the fluoridation, if that is a concern for you.  But maybe you have already checked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 07:17
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote I think the real issue here is that the academic establishment are being unrealistically too harsh expectations and wrongly think we are just "lazy".

No, the academic world has long experience of satisfying important criteria in establishing correct analysis of evidence. What you just said confirms one of my possible assessments of your 'work', that of sloppy methodology. The reason you think you have found success is because you haven't the critical facility to see you haven't.

I'm sorry, but as much as I'm not a professional academic, even I can see your work is just a repackaging of the same Arthurian standards painted onto a different canvas. It really isn't convincing.



I give up and let you win. Not because you have proven/disproven anything (actual evidence-/details-wise) but merely because it is impossible to argue with such dirty vicious cunning mere-words lies (and/or with you typically only selecting one or few sentences and ignoring everything else). But my discovery & evidence is not wrong. Time will show that i am right.

I have not "repackaged" anything.

You are evidently just really out to lyingly/unfairly make me and my thesis/paper/ebook out to others as just dumb sloppy amatuer pseudo-academic dog crap, and the orthodox are experienced important correct "critical" Gods. Keep up the smug stuck-up arrogant.

"Critical" is just more estalishment/regime cunning lies tactic to keep people deceived.

You can't handle that i dumb dog like me discovered it not some orthodox/academic. And so you all crow because i don't have the ability to perfect it well enough. You Romans or whoever behind this regime must keep your interests.

No one else has the guts/balls to take a stand against the regime.

 -----

p.s.

Look, you have given your mean [unfair/untrue] opinion plenty of airing, and have wrecked this thread/topic, so now why don't you leave us alone? I am not wasting my time and effort rewriting our evidences because it is plain that you reject all of what you mis-call "word games" and will only accept physical battle fought there then evidence in the sites grounds (of which we have given some possible evidences but do not have the situation/location/etc to fully find enough).
We have shown that the 9 battle sites list of Nennius match the 9 SS sites in names/meanings, natures/details/geographies and numbers/order. You reject all the stark matches evidences simply becuse we can yet also absolutely proven the battles fought there then.
If you can't accept this stalemate situation then that is your problem, but stop lyingly making us and/or our discovery thesis evidences out to supposedly be bad/wrong/dumb.

The situation as it stands is this: I have already provided plenty enough quality and quanitity evidences that the 9 battle-sites list of "Arthur" of "Nennius" (HB) matches the 9 Saxon Shore sites (in names/meanings, natures/details/geographies, and numbers/order), but because of my disadvantaged situation (including location, water) (&/or condition/sickness/ill-health) (and other things that i need/want to do) i can not write it all up well enough and also i can not get the extra final absolute physical proof (in the sites grounds of battles fought there then), so the orthodox academic and sceptic critics/enemies can get away with trashing/"discrediting" (not disproving) us and our discovery/thesis.
(Caldrail is also only picking one or a few single sentences and ignoring everything else. This is a clear case of "a text without a context is a pretext", and this comes across as if he is really just out to unfairly/untruly "discredit"/smear us in others eyes.)
I repeat: (With the present social hinderances, and/or without social assistance) I simply do not have the time and health (and situation and water and location and resources) etc to re-do (yet again for umpteenth time) all over again our 9 battle sites thesis better, as I have other things i need/want to do. So i repreat: they have not disproven/proven anything; and they can only claim we haven't absolutely proven, but they can't claim we haven't give a certain level of proof. They are just happy that we do not have the situation etc to be able to absolutely prove it and stop them from falsely trashing/"discrediting" us in public eyes.
I do not agree ours is as "sloppy" as Caldrail accusses, because we have given plenty of quality and quantity evidence; it is maybe only be a little "sloppy" (in Caldrails words) compared to papers of "non-sloppy" advantaged people because we have disadvantaged situation & condition.
Caldrail despises all the last few years hard work admist hell situation and condition and insultingly, unfairly, readily, smuggly, gloatingly/gleefully trashes us as just "sloppy". (And so it is not about proof/disproof or evidence or details or matches, or even about "sloppy", but about advandatged/disadvantaged, agendas/interests, tactics.) I don't deny that i am not perfect, may perhaps be a little "sloppy", but i am not that "sloppy", I have shown myself to have tried for last few years to make our thesis as best as possible after many peoples vicious unfair/untrue attacks. I have & have had a hell "life", I haven't even clean running water, i never got to go to University, and you low-life have the check to call me "sloppy".

Is the pope or whoever just cleverly forcing me to do all the work for them while cheating me of any fair pay/credit?

I fail to see the stark matches we showed between Cruc Mawr and the large crucifrom platform at Richborough as being "sloppy". It instead smacks of an untrue & unfair attack agenda against our discovery.

One other thing too: many other people get away with posting all sorts of casual things, yet why am i always on most forums expected to post perfect posts?
True a forum means people can test theories/ideas, but forums should not just be all overly antagonistic/anti/"critical" without any fair consideration and/or objectivity and/or truth-seeking.

In the new post a couple after this we give our new quoted versions of the Latin, Irish and English translations of "Nennius'" 12 battles of "Arthur" section. You surely can not continue to call it "too scanty details" of the battle sites, or call us just "sloppy".


Edited by truthsetsfree - 15 Jan 2017 at 23:54
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