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24,000 Year old body surprises

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Northman View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 Nov 2013 at 10:42
If there is something I only know very little about, it is antropology - genes and DNA.

However, I found this to be an interesting read - so let me share it:

24,000-Year-Old Body Shows Kinship to Europeans and American Indians

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Edited by Northman - 21 Nov 2013 at 10:43
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2013 at 16:40
Where an eventual population of common (partial) ancestors came from seems not to be evident, and it seems not evident at least the place was anywhere in Europe.
That said some "special" common ancestry seems not that unlikely, and here is some reasons.
1: "Beringia" was located to the north. Therefore it should be seen as only "natural" if populations earlier living in northern regions were amiong the first to settle it.
2: Due to the curvature of the earth the relative distance between two locations near the northern (or the southern) pole are relatively closer than two closer to the equator, if they are at the same eastern/western lattitudes.
There is another, more speculative point:3:Though living in northern regions posed some challenges there may have been some advantages to it too. Not least if we look at mobility. Frozen winter landscapes could be one, since frozen waters may have partly eliminated the need to shift between land and water transportation.
Living in a northern region could also mean more "daylight hours" in a year, making longer expeditions possible. If any kind of sledges, and even sledgedogs were at disposal that may have increased mobility as well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2013 at 02:07
Obviously, that evidence shows kinship among Europeans and Asians inside Eurasia. 24.000 years ago is about twice as old as the time the most ancient people in the Americas. In any case, Amerindian genetics have shown very clearly its relationship with Siberians, and from them to Turkish and East Asian peoples. Any "European" component among them is secondary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2013 at 15:23
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Obviously, that evidence shows kinship among Europeans and Asians inside Eurasia.24.000 years ago is about twice as old as the time the most ancient people in the Americas. In any case, Amerindian genetics have shown very clearly its relationship with Siberians, and from them to Turkish and East Asian peoples. Any "European" component among them is secondary.


Hello Pinguin - did you read the article - or do you know everything already...
Read again - and compare to what you wrote in bold above:

"The other surprise from the Mal’ta boy’s genome was that it matched to both Europeans and Native Americans but not to East Asians".
How can you read that as kinship among Europeans and Asians?

As I said - I know only little about this - but I can read.

~ North

Edited by Northman - 22 Nov 2013 at 15:24
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2013 at 02:33
No East Asian? I could bet a beer something is wrong in the Article. After all, Solutreans are pure baloney.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2013 at 08:04
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

No East Asian? I could bet a beer something is wrong in the Article. After all, Solutreans are pure baloney.
While there may, or may not be something wrong, those findings seems to have no direct link to the solutrean hypothesis, since the later seems to claim direct migrations across an Atlantic Glacier(or at the edge of that glacier). The latest research and the boy sceleton are from the Baikal region however. If You look at a map that is far east in Siberia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VALKO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2014 at 19:06
Early Europeans spread their genes all accross Siberia and Central Asia.  The Tocharians, a well documented example, settled near the Altai.  The Olotets, who's ancient homeland was Karelia, also spread their culture and technology far accross Siberia. Their distinct cultural atributes and traces of their technology have been found as far away as Irkutsk, in the Okhotsk, and in Northern Sakhalin Island. 

See: "pre historic Irkutsk culture" and "pre historic Baikal culture"

The Finno-Magyar-Ugric language group appears to be related to dialects spoken in the Aleutian Islands.


Edited by VALKO - 16 Jan 2014 at 19:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2014 at 08:05
If they were so widespread across not only Europe, but also Asia, why maintain the term "Europeans"? Some ciould have spread from Russia and Central Asia to the west as well as east?
and since it is thousands years in the past both very gradual or sudden migrations are possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VALKO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2014 at 19:47
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

If they were so widespread across not only Europe, but also Asia, why maintain the term "Europeans"? Some ciould have spread from Russia and Central Asia to the west as well as east?
and since it is thousands years in the past both very gradual or sudden migrations are possible.

Exactly correct. It is well documented that many important migrations went from east to west.  The Avars, Sarmatians, Scythians, Huns, Alans, and Mongols, are just a few examples of this phenomenon. 

So, we are not "Europeans"; we are in fact "Eurasians".  Europe is not a seperate continent, but merely the western end of Eurasia.  Our history, culture, language and genes reflect this fact. . . . For example:  Only we posses Neanderthal genes.


Edited by VALKO - 17 Jan 2014 at 19:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2014 at 12:18
Maybe besides the mtDNA, a look on the Y-DNA may help to shed a light on this.
Haplogroup Q (Y-DNA).PNG

This is a map about the distribution of Y-DNA Q, which evolved around 20,000 y BP. Q and the in europe and southern Asia common R derived both from Y-DNA P, which originated between 40-30 ky BP in central or southern Asia. Populations in eastern Asia have, beside C and D mostly O and later groups as well N. that is clearly evidence, that the most native Americans are close related with Eurasians.
A completely different question is, whether they were caucasian or mongolide. It seems, that mongolisation was a quite young phenomenon. Native Americans have groups with a very different grade of mongolisation. That supports the thesis, that native American came to America, when mongolisation had just started.

Another y-DNA is R.

This may be evidence for the aforementioned Solutreen-theory. It may as well be evidence for a migration of asian people with R, probably after the Q-people and before the NaDene. but maybe it is simply based on european influence after 1492.
The last great Y-DNA group is C.

It is probably related with the migration of NaDene-Athapascians after the glacial barriers opened a way south.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VALKO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2014 at 00:36
Most interesting to me is the "Q" type of DNA, (purple), which many ancients in Europe carried. We can clearly see lighter shades of this purple in parts of Northern Europe and Anatolia.

Well known is the fact that the "Reindeer People" of the North, Komi, Sami, Lappi, etc, commonly show East Asian like facial features, such as eye flaps.  Take a look at photos of Roy Rogers, the famous American actor and singer from the 1950s, he had ancestors from this area.
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