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A third gender?

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    Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 12:01
In the debate here in Sweden one can now hear some people advocating a third gender in a judicial and social sense. In Sweden the last number in the social security number indicates if a person is a man or a woman. Some debaters want that this number also shall be able to indicate if one is a trans person (trans sexual, intersexual or similar).
 
Also when it comes to surgery when a woman operates herself to become a man, she is automatically sterilized and becomes legally a man. Some debaters want that to change so she/he will keep his/her ability to bear a child. Or as one debater said: "nothing says that a man cannot bear a child". Also those who alter their sex shall be able to refer themselves to a third category and not automatically be registered as a man or a woman.
 
And as a little curiosity we also have the day care center where there is no girls or boys, but the children are referred to with only their name or sometimes with hen (han = he, hon = she, den = it, hen = han/hon/den). The idea is that the children shall not get stuck in the usual gender roles but instead see each other as persons.
 
What is your take on this? Is it time for a third gender or sex?


Edited by Carcharodon - 22 Mar 2011 at 14:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 14:05
Outside the epicene, no.
 
Pleistocene, holocene, epicene....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 14:46
That depends on how many hermaphrodites are around.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 20:33
Welcome to the wonderful word of whacko although I would bet the ghost of W. C. Fields would be overjoyed at the notion of applying "it" on little children. Anyway, given the type of thoughts preoccupying the Swedes these days, why should anyone intefere with their desires to guarantee extinction.
 
Best leave the "it" girl where it belongs, with Clara Bow and the Roaring Twenties!


Edited by drgonzaga - 22 Mar 2011 at 20:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 20:36
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

...Anyway, given the type of thoughts preoccupying the Sweded these days, why should anyone intefre with their desires to guarantee extinction....


LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 21:08
What nature saw fit too leave well enough alone, Sweden feels the need to tinkler with outside the very breast of knowledge. 

Edited by Panther - 22 Mar 2011 at 21:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 21:21
Let's not give Sweden too much credit here, this debate is a lot broader than that. Take the Hijras for example, I think they have a separate sexual identity enshrined in law.

Overall I think this debate matters a lot more to those that feel neither male nor female than it does for the rest of us - the 'third gender' question comes down to legal terminology behind it all and if in its inception it protects such people's rights then so be it. Males and females will still be having plenty of sex regardless.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 21:27
Come on, gays have always have some rights.
In the Hispanic World, for instance, gays have always been tolerated a bit, with the condition they behave in a decent manner in public and keep theirs "alternative" behavoir private.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 22 Mar 2011 at 21:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 22:23
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Come on, gays have always have some rights.
In the Hispanic World, for instance, gays have always been tolerated a bit, with the condition they behave in a decent manner in public and keep theirs "alternative" behavoir private.
 
 

Who said anything about gays? We're talking about transgendered people.

I think you will also find that the legalisation of homosexuality does not generally include a clause of accepted social decorum. Public decency does not discriminate based on sexual preference.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 22:31
Why am I not surprised? Basically, we technically have 2 genders. If someone makes an operation it should be regarded as a gender change and that should solve the issue. Maybe, someone that had a successful operation doesn't want to have a "stigma" of his previous identity on paper and wants to be a man or a woman.

Now, Carch let me know something? Do you think such debates are 100% real or is it a swedish trend of the last 20 years where homosexual tolerance (and not only) makes ones public status higher? I am asking you because many times I don't believe that people in their inner depths of their heart believe what they are saying. Some simple say things to be "politically correct", but in private discussions they can say or show the opposite.


Edited by Flipper - 22 Mar 2011 at 22:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 22:31
Let's just stick with two. It's simple and it works.

According to this site:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_in_this_world_are_transgender

only one in every 75,000 people is transgender. I don't see the need to reform the language just to accommodate such a remote and statistically tiny outlier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 22:47
I think you have a point Constantine, as the degree of administrative changes would be massive come to think of it. Here's a solution: when any form has a gender question, let the person write it in instead of ticking a box. Simple. 

What this come down to is legal protection. I support that.

We basically have a 'third gender' anyways, the problem is that the term is so nebulous that it is forever getting subdivided. Sorry to spam, but this section from wiki is telling:

The concepts of gender identity and transgender identity differ from that of sexual orientation.[54] Sexual orientation describes an individual's enduring physical, romantic, emotional, and/or spiritual attraction to another person, while gender identity is one's personal sense of being a man or a woman.[55] Transgender people have more or less the same variety of sexual orientations as cisgender people.[56] In the past, the terms homosexual and heterosexual were incorrectly used to label transgender individuals' sexual orientation based on their birth sex.[57] Professional literature now uses terms such as attracted to men (androsexual), attracted to women (gynosexual), attracted to both or attracted to neither to describe a person's sexual orientation without reference to their gender identity.[58] Therapists are coming to understand the necessity of using terms with respect to their clients' gender identities and preferences.[59] For example, a person who is assigned male at birth, transitions to female, and is attracted to men would be identified as heterosexual.

Despite the distinction between sexual orientation and gender, throughout history the gay, lesbian, and bisexual subculture was often the only place where gender-variant people were socially accepted in the gender role they felt they belonged to; especially during the time when legal or medical transitioning was almost impossible. This acceptance has had a complex history. Like the wider world, the gay community in Western societies did not generally distinguish between sex and gender identity until the 1970s, and often perceived gender variant people more as homosexuals who behaved in a gender-variant way than as gender-variant people in their own right. Today, members of the transgender community often continue to struggle to remain part of the same movement as lesbian, gay and bisexual citizens, and to be included in rights protections.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 22:54
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Let's not give Sweden too much credit here, this debate is a lot broader than that. Take the Hijras for example, I think they have a separate sexual identity enshrined in law.

Overall I think this debate matters a lot more to those that feel neither male nor female than it does for the rest of us - the 'third gender' question comes down to legal terminology behind it all and if in its inception it protects such people's rights then so be it. Males and females will still be having plenty of sex regardless.




I don't understand the mindset? Really i don't. In the past, those who go through with a sex change operation do so because, as they say, they don't feel like the sex they were born as. So they become the sex they were not meant to be as nature saw fit. But are now saying that they belong to neither gender and so a new political identification is being debated and thought up for them? Is this what the technological revolution has become... Is this what we have progressed too? Will humans ever really be happy with whatever definition, political or sociological, they stick themselves with? Before this, i wouldn't have doubted it, but now....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 23:13
Quote I don't understand the mindset? Really i don't. In the past, those who go through with a sex change operation do so because, as they say, they don't feel like the sex they were born as. So they become the sex they were not meant to be as nature saw fit.


I have found the issue confusing as well. Scientifically speaking, there does seem to be an explanation as to why people wish to alter their set of genitals to more closely match that of the other gender - that reason being that in utero the hormonal state of the mother produced androgens in a quantity which affected brain development to more closely resemble that of the other gender despite producing one set of genitals. It's hard to relate to, but at least there seems to be some sort of rational explanation for it.

But I don't quite see how a person can wish to be other than one gender or to at a stretch have a combination of features from both - there doesn't seem to be any other point of reference for something else. It's like saying 'I just don't think human describes me, let's invent another category to put me into away from those humans'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 23:14
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:




I don't understand the mindset? Really i don't. In the past, those who go through with a sex change operation do so because, as they say, they don't feel like the sex they were born as. So they become the sex they were not meant to be as nature saw fit. But are now saying that they belong to neither gender and so a new political identification is being debated and thought up for them? Is this what the technological revolution has become... Is this what we have progressed too? Will humans ever really be happy with whatever definition, political or sociological, they stick themselves with? Before this, i wouldn't have doubted it, but now....


Sometimes nature doesn't have a 'plan'. Basically, when it comes to the human body and especially the human brain any random combination of preferences is possible. It is still controversial to say it, but based on the principle of normalcy, transgendered humans either have a physiological or neurological disorder, depending on how you look at it (wrong body right preference, right body wrong preference). The implication of this lies in how you define someone's gender - is it based on body type or cognitive makeup? And what happens if the person believes they have the right body and the right preference, contrary to conventional normalcy? The question is whether we continue with the current binary division for expediency or embrace a more complex classification system, at least in a technical legal sense.





Edited by Dolphin - 22 Mar 2011 at 23:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 23:26
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

 
Sometimes nature doesn't have a 'plan'.


I did forget about Hermaphrodites, Intersex groups, she-males or whatever the term is now to describe their condition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 23:50
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Quote I don't understand the mindset? Really i don't. In the past, those who go through with a sex change operation do so because, as they say, they don't feel like the sex they were born as. So they become the sex they were not meant to be as nature saw fit.


I have found the issue confusing as well. Scientifically speaking, there does seem to be an explanation as to why people wish to alter their set of genitals to more closely match that of the other gender - that reason being that in utero the hormonal state of the mother produced androgens in a quantity which affected brain development to more closely resemble that of the other gender despite producing one set of genitals. It's hard to relate to, but at least there seems to be some sort of rational explanation for it.

But I don't quite see how a person can wish to be other than one gender or to at a stretch have a combination of features from both - there doesn't seem to be any other point of reference for something else. It's like saying 'I just don't think human describes me, let's invent another category to put me into away from those humans'.


I like this quote CXI  - Scientifically speaking, there does seem to be an explanation as to why people wish to alter their set of genitals to more closely match that of the other gender - that reason being that in utero the hormonal state of the mother produced androgens in a quantity which affected brain development to more closely resemble that of the other gender despite producing one set of genitals.

Reminds me of the time I watched a documentary of the infamous 1976 East German Olympic female swimming team. Those poor souls didn't know much at the time that those 'vitamin's they had been given were laced with heavy doses of steroids. Some of those ladies not only grew masculine features but one actually did make the switch into manhood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 02:00
Since I have alreadly been accused of being some what a trouble maker by one high and mighty personage on this site, and one I have accused of being better called "Suko!", then I must make this post brief!
 
Thus.............!LOL


Edited by opuslola - 23 Mar 2011 at 02:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 02:02
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

Since I have alreadly been accused of being some what a trouble maker by one high and mighty personage on this site, and one I have accused of being better called "Suko!", then I must make this post brief!
 
Thus.............!


Seriously, you were just warned. Contribute something intelligent or don't contribute at all.

Keep trolling and we will suspend you. I hope I have made myself clear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 09:38
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

In the debate here in Sweden one can now hear some people advocating a third gender in a judicial and social sense. In Sweden the last number in the social security number indicates if a person is a man or a woman. Some debaters want that this number also shall be able to indicate if one is a trans person (trans sexual, intersexual or similar).
 
We're on the minutiae of social organisation here. There's no reason not do it, then again is the number of transgendered people high enough to justify the effort? As long as it can be introduced without adding any complexity to the identification of clear cut men and women then I don't have any problem with it.
  
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Also when it comes to surgery when a woman operates herself to become a man, she is automatically sterilized and becomes legally a man. Some debaters want that to change so she/he will keep his/her ability to bear a child. Or as one debater said: "nothing says that a man cannot bear a child". Also those who alter their sex shall be able to refer themselves to a third category and not automatically be registered as a man or a woman.
 
Sure, what rational reason could there be not to? The number of former women who'd bear children is likely to be absolutely miniscule anyway, so having it be illegal just seems like dogmatic pettiness.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

And as a little curiosity we also have the day care center where there is no girls or boys, but the children are referred to with only their name or sometimes with hen (han = he, hon = she, den = it, hen = han/hon/den). The idea is that the children shall not get stuck in the usual gender roles but instead see each other as persons.
 
Impossible. Gender isn't exclusively created by social conditioning, rather the gender shapes the social conditioning we are exposed to which merely serves to further cement what is biologically predetermined. How our bodies look will always be the most fundamental part of how we identify ourselves, and genitals and breasts will remain the most obvious differences.
 
I would love it if they did try to erease gender roles though, just so they can learn it isn't possible or even desired by most people. The guinea pigs of this experiment would become a warning and a lesson for the future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 10:42
Gender is fluid, just like sexuality - look no further than the 'female' south African who got in such Olympian bother there a couple of years ago. 
http://xkcd.com/15/



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 11:42
The Swedes seem to be overlooking the genesis of their own problem, as described by Carch - having odd social security numbers for females and even ones for males (or maybe the other way around). On the one hand, introducing a third gender would mean everybody having to learn to do modulo 3 arithmetic: on the other dropping the distinction altogether means the problem goes away, except you would not be able to tell the gender from the social security number.
And who cares about that?
 
If someone picks up a prostitute in Stockholm, does he ask for the social security number to check what gender he/she is?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 11:52
The topic is a complex one but the notion that it should be approached in terms of a "third sex" is as abhorrent today as it was to Christine Jorgensen back in the 1950s. Earlier, a mention was made of hijras as a version of a "third sex" in law--in reference to the Indian subcontinent--rather than what it really represents: the institutionalization of homosexuality through role dress. The attempt to construe such as a "third sex" is a recent phenomenon furthered through advocacy agiprop and really clouds the transgender question, which at its base is little more than a call for the legal acceptance of an irreversible change in physiology. If one wishes to perorate on the jargon raised not only by the agiprop crowd but also within the realm of the medical sciences [e.g. gender dysphoria, identity disorder, sexual reassignment], one must also perforce discuss consequences within the context of the general population as well. Therein the actual problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 13:02
Swedes have too much time on their hands since life's too f**king short to debate such non-issues. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2011 at 12:05
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Swedes have too much time on their hands since life's too f**king short to debate such non-issues. 
Swedes doesn't give a s**t, except getting annoyed that public money is wasted on such nonsense. There is definitely a group of unnecessary state employees who live in their own little world. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2011 at 15:05
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Swedes have too much time on their hands since life's too f**king short to debate such non-issues. 
Swedes doesn't give a s**t, except getting annoyed that public money is wasted on such nonsense. There is definitely a group of unnecessary state employees who live in their own little world. 


Same here.  they get paid well to make policy that is either not implemented or is ignored, when it is politically convenient.

Example:  The Federal Department of Transportation.  This sort of came about because of the Interstate Highway system - a good idea and a considerable achievement.  So, now that it is complete - sort of - what does the DoT do?  It retains control of tax dollars that are used as a weapon when Washington wants to dominate the states.  (Other Federal departments do that too.)

Highway design, construction and maintenance are responsibilities of the states, all 50, each of which has its OWN dept. of trans.  Funding for the big projects came from the Feds, which is understandable, but there are fewer huge projects being built.

Why does the Federal Dept. of Trans need 58,000 employees?  Why, there are empires to staff of course, and child agencies to justify now.  "Bureaucreepcy"

The states still have to do everything, so what do those 58,000 people do?

An acquaintance of mine retired from the Federal Highway Administration (a child agency).  He trained as a civil engineer (M.S. Georgia Tech, and P.E.), but he said he had not been a real engineer in decades.  His management job was to funnel dollars to states according to magical formulae that had been massaged by political considerations. 

He described "working for the Federal government" as an oxymoron.  His salary was somewhere around $130,000/yr.  He was divorced and his ex gets 1/3 of his Federal pension.  He still has two houses (PA and FL), two sets of real estate taxes, and two country club memberships.  And excellent health care benefits.

Maybe the third gender is public employees.  Tongue  




Edited by pikeshot1600 - 07 Apr 2011 at 19:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2011 at 15:24
The good Doctor, wrote above;

"The topic is a complex one but the notion that it should be approached in terms of a "third sex" is as abhorrent today as it was to Christine Jorgensen back in the 1950s. Earlier, a mention was made of hijras as a version of a "third sex" in law--in reference to the Indian subcontinent--rather than what it really represents: the institutionalization of homosexuality through role dress."

Could we perhaps take the above as similar to the Greek story of
"Ac-heel-es"

From Wikipedia;
"Some post-Homeric sources claim that in order to keep Achilles safe from the war, Thetis (or, in some versions, Peleus) hides the young man at the court of Lycomedes, king of Skyros. There, Achilles is disguised as a girl and lives among Lycomedes' daughters, perhaps under the name "Pyrrha" (the red-haired girl). With Lycomedes' daughter Deidamia, whom in the account of Statius he rapes, Achilles there fathers a son, Neoptolemus (also called Pyrrhus, after his father's possible alias). According to this story, Odysseus learns from the prophet Calchas that the Achaeans would be unable to capture Troy without Achilles' aid. Odysseus goes to Skyros in the guise of a peddler selling women's clothes and jewelry and places a shield and spear among his goods. When Achilles instantly takes up the spear, Odysseus sees through his disguise and convinces him to join the Greek campaign. In another version of the story, Odysseus arranges for a trumpet alarm to be sounded while he was with Lycomedes' women; while the women flee in panic, Achilles prepares to defend the court, thus giving his identity away.[16]

And second his relationship with Patroclus? (Considered his cousin by some)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2011 at 15:38
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

Same here.  they get paid well to make policy that is either not implemented or is ignored, when it is politically convenient.
I don't disagree with your post, but what makes you think it's any different in the private sector? (Assuming you do, which it seemed you do.)
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Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

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Zagros View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2011 at 16:51
"Maybe the third gender is public employees."

Yes, asexuals, they just seem to multiply and multiply and every so often you have to cull the population to keep it under control.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2011 at 20:27
One of the creative and imaginative ideas I have floated in the past to no great interest in anybody else: if the unemployment rate at year end is x% in a country, then x% of all public employees tin the administration, executive and clerical branches (Grades A,B and C in the EU) taken at random should be fired, and their places taken by people from the already unemployed.
 
Mightn't be a bad idea to recall x% of political representatives as well.
 
I can only dream.
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Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

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