| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - A treasure from Cappadocia
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


A treasure from Cappadocia

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A treasure from Cappadocia
    Posted: 23 Feb 2010 at 18:38
I'm just back from Turkey once again and i happen to carry with me really rare material from Cappadocia! It is a copy of a collection of folk-songs and information on Cappadocian language reprinted in 1924!!!!!

For those that are not familiar with the case of Cappadocian, it is a scarcely documented dialect of Greek that was studied with the coming of the immigrants from Anatolia. The copy i have in my hands has documented the language prior to those studies and it has been based on the language spoken by the mothers to their children (language unaffected by the language taught in the Greek schools of that time). Cappadocian is known to have many turkish loanwords but...While reading the poems and songs i noticed the presence of IE words different than Greek, that might be remnants of the native tongues of Anatolia!!!

An example of this is the word for god ΤεFο (tewo) in a sub-dialect of Cappadocian which we cannot avoid to compare with the Luwian Tiwaz (sky-god) and the Phrygian ΤΙFΕΙΑ (tiweia = goddess).

I will do a good study on the texts and make a list of words that can be discussed in case they belong to earlier languages of Anatolia.
FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
The Hidden Face View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1590
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 05:41
Very exciting news, Flipper. Thank you for sharing. There is believed to be a few words which might be derived from ancient anatolian languages in Turkish, too. When you list the words I'll check if there's any intersecting words in it.
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 06:23
Originally posted by The Hidden Face The Hidden Face wrote:

Very exciting news, Flipper. Thank you for sharing. There is believed to be a few words which might be derived from ancient anatolian languages in Turkish, too. When you list the words I'll check if there's any intersecting words in it.


Ah great! Smile
Yes, please do post anything that is suspected to be of Anatolian origin! I was wondering in case Turkish ata (father) has anything to do with PIE atta?

Hittite: attas
Lydian: ata
Old Greek: atta
Latin: atta

When i think of it, the first Seljuks arrived in Anatolia in a time that some areas might have kept some kind of native tongue. Even though at that time anatolia had been Hellenized, Arabized and Iranized many native words must have survived in the everyday language. The first Turkic speakers must have adapted some strong standards, especially words that were not a part of old-Turkish or that were not commonly used (e.g Liman - harbour).




Edited by Flipper - 24 Feb 2010 at 06:23
FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 07:56
Ok, from what i read so far, this book talks mainly about the areas around Sinassos. It says that the name comes from Phrygian meaning "Suns city" (i doubt the root is Phrygian, but -ssos is definetely anatolian ending).

Back then (early 20th century) the authors mention that their native tongue was not Greek, but a language of the same origin as Persian, Greek and Latin (indoeuropean maybe Smile like Hittite and Lydian?) that was spoken once in Anatolia! Greek language they say was introduced first to the communities by Perdikas of Macedon after the death of Alexander the great.

There are several early inscriptions  from that area revealing some characteristics of the local speech. The first one is found on the top of the church of "Timios Stavros" and is fragmented as below:

....ΝΔ......ΙΚΙΑΣ ΗΚΟΝ ΙΠΑΡΧΕΙ ΤΟ. ΣΕΒΑΣΜΙΟΥ ΞΥΛΟΥ. Α.. ΚΕ ΦΥΛΑΤΕ ΤΟ ΣΟ ΔΟΥΛΟ ΚΟΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟ ΠΡΕΣΒΥΤΕΡΟ ΧΑΡΙΣΕ ΑΥΤΟΥΣ ΑΦΕΣΙΝ ΑΜΑΡΤΙΟΝ ΧΑΡΙ ΚΕ ΕΛΕΟΣ Κ. ΒΟΗΘΕΙΑΝ ΤΟ ΣΟ ΔΟΥΛΟ ΖΟΥΓΡΑΦΟΥ.



The first interresting I see is the usage of Phrygian "ke" (=and) instead of Greek "kai". On the other side, the text has severe ortography errors like "kostantino/ΚΟΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟ" (konstantino/Κωνσταντινο), "Iparche/ΙΠΑΡΧΕΙ" (yparchei/υπάρχει), Chari/ΧΑΡΙ (ΧΑΡΗ) etc which could make the supposed Phrygian "ke" just a typing error of the Greek kai that is pronounced in the same manner.

The oldest inscription is found near a spring (who knows if it still exists now) between Urgup and Sinassos. The context is somekind of a mixed language (Greek and ?) that makes absolutely no sense as a whole.

ΤΟΜΟC ΙΝΑΙΤΙC .. ΔΙΜΑΠΙΔΑ ΠΛΟΚΥ ΕΙΜΙΛΕΝ ΟΥΤΟC ΘΑΓΜΑΤΙ ΔΕΦΡΑCΟΝ ΕΒΑΙΝΕ ΠΟΛΚΑΔΟC ΕΝΦΥΤΟC ΥΠΝΟΣ ΤΕΤΡΙΧΙΔΑ ΝΑΜΟΙΝ ΑΝΑΞ ΔΕ ΚΕΛΑΙ ΥΠΕΑ ΤΡΕΙ.. ΕΡΝΑ ΝΑΙΜΟΝ Θ.Α.



TOMOS INAETIS .. DIMAPIDA PLOKU EIMILEN OUTOS THAGMATI DEPHRASON EVAINE POLKADOS ENPHYTOS HYPNOS TETRICHIDA NAMOIN ANAX DE KELAE HYPEA TREI.. ERNA NAEMON TH.A.

In the inscription above some words are identifiable but many are not. I have no clue what this is about since i have not spend enough time to identify the words yet (except from the obvious greek ones like enfytos, outos, hypnos etc). What is striking is the Mycenaean and Homeric ΑΝΑΞ (wanaka/anax) which means King/Overloard. The word is the same as well in Phrygian, attested as FΑΝΑΚΤ- (WANAKT).

This is for now Smile. I will continue reading and will post any new comments here. Any help would be welcome!




Edited by Flipper - 24 Feb 2010 at 08:05
FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 07:58
Hmm, do the Greek characters above appear correctly or is it my browser that has the problem?

EDIT: I uploaded images of the text, but i still need to know if they are visible as UTF-8.


Edited by Flipper - 24 Feb 2010 at 08:03
FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
The Hidden Face View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 16 Jul 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1590
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 09:24
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:


Hittite: attas
Lydian: ata
Old Greek: atta
Latin: atta
 
Turkish ata (father) has anything to do with PIE atta?

 
There's no exact answer unfortunately. There're only some theories.
 
Another example, the Turkish word "Anne/Ana" means Mother. Some linguists say Anne might be derived from Hittite language. According to them, the words starting with "AN" in Turkic languages don't even mean anything related to maternity or fertility. In Hittite however;
 
"Annas" means Mother.
"Annitalvatar" - ability to give birth.
"Anniyatar" - Maternity.
"Annavalans" - Step mother.
 
Other linguists say that "Anne" is somewhat a baby spelling with unknown roots. So there's no clear answer.
Back to Top
xristar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1151
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 10:18
Φlipper, no unforunately the characters don't appear on my computer either. Good that you posted the images.

Regarding the kai/ke subject, I wouldn't make such far assumptions. In fact orthografical mistakes were quite common. I once visited the byzantine museum in Thessaloniki, and I remember that the inscriptions on the gravestones had many orthographical mistakes, as many vowels sounded (and sound) the same in spoken language.
You don't provide any dating on the inscriptions, but clealry they belong to the christian era, so it is very propable that the orthographical mistakes come from the simplified pronunciation of koine greek rather than any phrygian surviving. Again, dating is of essence here.
There is a book by Spyros Vryonis, which Byzantine Emperor once suggested to me, called something lile "The turkification of Asia Minor" or so. I actually found and bought this book (it was originally written in english and relatively recently translated to greek) and read the first chapters (I stopped due to the lack of time. I will eventually read the book, some time). Anyway, Vryonis makes an interesting intorduction on the hellenisation of Asia Minor. Clearly, the ancient laguages persisted longer in the eastern Asia Minor than in the western. As far as I recall, in the west the ancient anatolian languages barely survived as spoken languages until the roman period, and until the 4th-5th cantury as ceremonial languages. In the east I think they survived propably until the middle byzantine period (10th century or so). So, it is very propable that remnants of an ancient cappadocian languages could have survived in inscription well into the byzantine period, though not so much as a spoken language. Today, only single words (such as "anne" as The Hidden Face said) may survive.   


Edited by xristar - 24 Feb 2010 at 10:19
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new?
it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
-Ecclesiastes
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 17:52
Originally posted by The Hidden Face The Hidden Face wrote:

Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:


Hittite: attas
Lydian: ata
Old Greek: atta
Latin: atta
 
Turkish ata (father) has anything to do with PIE atta?

 
There's no exact answer unfortunately. There're only some theories.
 
Another example, the Turkish word "Anne/Ana" means Mother. Some linguists say Anne might be derived from Hittite language. According to them, the words starting with "AN" in Turkic languages don't even mean anything related to maternity or fertility. In Hittite however;
 
"Annas" means Mother.
"Annitalvatar" - ability to give birth.
"Anniyatar" - Maternity.
"Annavalans" - Step mother.
 
Other linguists say that "Anne" is somewhat a baby spelling with unknown roots. So there's no clear answer.


Aaaah, i had forgot about it. You have right. In Hittite it is annaas!



FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2010 at 18:01
Originally posted by xristar xristar wrote:

Φlipper, no unforunately the characters don't appear on my computer either. Good that you posted the images.

Regarding the kai/ke subject, I wouldn't make such far assumptions. In fact orthografical mistakes were quite common. I once visited the byzantine museum in Thessaloniki, and I remember that the inscriptions on the gravestones had many orthographical mistakes, as many vowels sounded (and sound) the same in spoken language.
You don't provide any dating on the inscriptions, but clealry they belong to the christian era, so it is very propable that the orthographical mistakes come from the simplified pronunciation of koine greek rather than any phrygian surviving. Again, dating is of essence here.
There is a book by Spyros Vryonis, which Byzantine Emperor once suggested to me, called something lile "The turkification of Asia Minor" or so. I actually found and bought this book (it was originally written in english and relatively recently translated to greek) and read the first chapters (I stopped due to the lack of time. I will eventually read the book, some time). Anyway, Vryonis makes an interesting intorduction on the hellenisation of Asia Minor. Clearly, the ancient laguages persisted longer in the eastern Asia Minor than in the western. As far as I recall, in the west the ancient anatolian languages barely survived as spoken languages until the roman period, and until the 4th-5th cantury as ceremonial languages. In the east I think they survived propably until the middle byzantine period (10th century or so). So, it is very propable that remnants of an ancient cappadocian languages could have survived in inscription well into the byzantine period, though not so much as a spoken language. Today, only single words (such as "anne" as The Hidden Face said) may survive.   


Xristar, there is no dating on the inscriptions but obviously they are from Christian era because of the usage of C as sigma.

When it comes to the Phrygian "ke" indeed it must be a misspelling, but since early Hellenized Phrygians kept the Phrygian ortography for common words i had to point that out, otherwise some would have immediately identified "ke" as Phrygian. Believe me i have seen many fast conclusions. However, the severe orthography on the first inscription can mean either non-native writing of Greek or low education rate depending on the period it covers.

What made me amazed is that the speakers of Cappadocian Greek, were aware of an earlier language that had a connection with other IE languages.

The second inscription though is the big deal since it makes no sense. I'm currently trying to find any connection to known words.

Another word i saw in a poem that made me curious is "fsacha" meaning "children". Anyone knows if it has any connection to anything?


Edited by Flipper - 24 Feb 2010 at 18:05
FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 09:09
I just discovered a book printed in Izmir back in 1885 when Cappadocian had still a few speakers left. It is called "Comparative glossary of Greek-Cappadocian words". From the snippet view I read that the author claims that Cappadocian was a Phrygian dialect, a language close to Greek and Armenian.

Now I would kill for a copy of that book...Dunno what basis the guy had back in 1885, but it is not that far fetched considering the geography.
FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 19:20
I found the f*cking book!
It is really impressive to see how much the guy has written about the Proto-Indoeuropean relations of languages back in 1885. While I've read great "gems" about PIE from the early 20th century, this guy has a very cautious approach and the conclusions are in par with the current views on IE linguistics. Sometimes, I really understand people who say that some linguists have been blind in the past, but this one was not.

In any case, Capaddocian is described as a Greek dialect with many IE words tracing roots in Phrygian, Armenian, Anatolian languages and Persian. Apart from that many words have Sanskrit cognates! Expect me to post a great list of things, after I've finished reading.




Edited by Flipper - 14 Jan 2011 at 19:25
FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2011 at 08:56
From Flipper, et, al, above!
 
Can any of you consider the word "atta-man?" / Ataman?/ h'attaman", etc.?
 
It could place a different face upon the subject, in any case?
 
Regards,
 
Ron


Edited by opuslola - 23 Feb 2011 at 08:57
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2011 at 14:10
And, as well , just how does one seperate the words "Hittite" ,from what should be the most correct form "Hatti" or then "Hattite?"
 

There exists other similar examples!
 
Can any of you extrapolate the information presented in the postings above mine that are not merely "ancedotal" in nature?
 
Regards,
 

Ron
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 06:24
Opuslola, I am afraid I cannot even guess what your point is here?

Edited by Flipper - 24 Mar 2011 at 07:52
FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 07:32
http://www.palaeolexicon.com/
Ataman, which I propose could just as well be spelled as "Attaman!"  I would also propose that it is but a version of "Hattaman" or "Hatti-man", or in the modern version "Hittite-man", with the "h" being silent and thus not written in sources.
Just some conjecture.
 
Regards,
Ron
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 07:51
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

http://www.palaeolexicon.com/
Ataman, which I propose could just as well be spelled as "Attaman!"  I would also propose that it is but a version of "Hattaman" or "Hatti-man", or in the modern version "Hittite-man", with the "h" being silent and thus not written in sources.
Just some conjecture.
 
Regards,
Ron


If you're referring to this http://www.palaeolexicon.com/default.aspx?static=12&wid=346788 which is the personal name Atamaneus, then it has nothing to do with Hittites and the spelling is correct. First of all, the term Hittite is a modern term. The Hittites like we call them today, were just the speakers of Nesili (an Indoeuropean language, unlike the Hattic), "citizens" of the Land of the Hatti. There was no term "hittite" back then.

Also, the word "man" as you use it, is like someone would use it in English. In Anatolian languages it would be an -il/ilis suffix e.g Hattusili = man from Hattusa or "Hattusaman" if you prefer.




Edited by Flipper - 24 Mar 2011 at 07:53
FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 08:16
Thanks for your kind and informative response!

Regards,
Ron
Back to Top
Flipper View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Location: Anatolia&Balkan
Status: Offline
Points: 2798
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2011 at 05:45
You're welcome Opuslola!
It is more than a year ago I posted this thread and since then I have read several books about it. There are two conclusions to make out of this:

a) Cappadocian Greek is the equivalent phenomenon of what happened to "proto"-Armenian when it met Urartian and Luwian. Personally, I believe that is a good parallel. The word borrowings from other languages are vast and many of the words belong to languages that are not spoken anymore.

b) Some of the speakers of Cappadocian in the end of the 19th century knew their original native tongue was once different, but still close to Greek, Latin and Persian. The memory and the realization of such a thing is remarkable, especially when one thinks that the idea of Indoeuropean back then was almost in-existent!

FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.