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a young Jesus story

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    Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 01:07
Of course, Muslims believe Jesus, insofar as they consider him a prophet.
This adolescent Jesus story comes from the Sufis, a mystic branch of Islam.

Once upon a time, a young Jesus was playing in the mud, making clay birds.
A rabbi came up to him, and screamed at him, "no working on the sabbath!"
Jesus said, "what do you mean?"  The rabbi turned red, and yelled, "those birds!"
Jesus said, "what birds?" clapped his hands and the birds flew away.

While probably neither an example of the historical Jesus, nor theologically
profound, the story has its charm.

Merry Christmas,

franciscosan 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 2017 at 16:31
Rumi-

Suspended in sheer nothing, heart-ravishing
in the Void, Mary saw a soul-stirring
Form, an enlivening Presence;

 

Out of the earth rose the phantom,
a Holy Spirit of Trust,
brilliant as a sun or moon;

 

Rapturous as the sun's aurora,
an apparition of naked beauty, bare and unveiled,
rose froth from the earth.

 

Frightened in her nakedness before the weird
Form, Mary shied back, shaking
in horror of perversion and evil.

 

Joseph, too, like his Egyptian lady-admirers
would have cut his fingers in wonder
before the candor of such sheer beauty.

 

As a pure idea bursts form the heart
or the blossoming of some earthborn rose,
this imaginal form bloomed before her.

 

Overwhelmed by the Vision, of self bereft,
Mary swooned, entreating refuge
in Divine Mercy;

 

Since her pure-bosomed nature was accustomed
to taking refuge with the Unseen
in flight from the world,

 

An inconstant kingdom the world appeared
to her, so prudence beckoned to make
God's patronage her fortress,

 

And so forge a stronghold for her soul
until death, lest any foe
waylay her quest.

Merry Christmas

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 02:04
I like Rumi, the Persian mystic poet of love (Love of Allah).

I have three different collections, found at thrift stores and library sales, I don't know how good the translations are.  If anyone has any knowledge regarding translations, love to hear it.... :)

Merry Christmas, Vanuatu, 

my mother says that "merry" Christmas in Great Britain refers to getting sauced, but it doesn't have that connotation in America.  In any case, my getting sauced times or even any at all, is long past.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 03:03
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I like Rumi, the Persian mystic poet of love (Love of Allah).

I have three different collections, found at thrift stores and library sales, I don't know how good the translations are.  If anyone has any knowledge regarding translations, love to hear it.... :)

Merry Christmas, Vanuatu, 

my mother says that "merry" Christmas in Great Britain refers to getting sauced, but it doesn't have that connotation in America.  In any case, my getting sauced times or even any at all, is long past.

Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I am changing myself.

Rumi


Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 02:22
In about the 12th century onwards (and probably predating that in some form into antiquity) there was the black madonna tradition, where some madonna (and child) statues were painted black or made of black materials (Donatello's Madonna).  These statues are not black due to smoke or weathering.  These are primarily found in France, but also Spain, Italy, Germany, etc.  There are also black madonnas found in Africa or South America, but that is more due to the prominence of blacks in those cultures.

Why are the madonnas black?  Other than why not? I haven't got that far in the book, and I am not sure there is a set answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 14:21
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

In about the 12th century onwards (and probably predating that in some form into antiquity) there was the black madonna tradition, where some madonna (and child) statues were painted black or made of black materials (Donatello's Madonna).  These statues are not black due to smoke or weathering.  These are primarily found in France, but also Spain, Italy, Germany, etc.  There are also black madonnas found in Africa or South America, but that is more due to the prominence of blacks in those cultures.

Why are the madonnas black?  Other than why not? I haven't got that far in the book, and I am not sure there is a set answer.

Great question. There are several theories offering possible reasons for the Black Madonna, no claims to have direct reference. Here are two paragraphs from link that offer plausible possible explanations, aside from the obvious African art depicting Mary with African features.-

  The first is that the images were darkened to illustrate a text from the Song of Songs: "I am black but beautiful." [Negra sum sed formosa] In support of this theory, note that many of the black Madonnas exist in France, and date from around the time of the crusades, when Bernard of Clairvaux wrote numerous commentaries on the Canticles, comparing the soul to the bride, as well as many on Our Lady. He was also known to have visited several shrines of the Black Madonna, for example: Chatillon and Affligem. In the Gothic period texts explicitly interpreted the Bride in Canticles as referring especially to Mary. Once artistic precedent had been set, subsequent black Madonnas may be explained by artistic convention rather than theological motivation. Based on historical correlations, Ean Begg speculates that the genre developed from an esoteric popular religion common among the Templars and Cathars, perhaps as a complement to the impetus from Bernard.

The other prominent theory is briefly summarized by Stephen Benko: "The Black Madonna is the ancient earth-goddess converted to Christianity." His argument begins by noting that many goddesses were pictured as black, among them Artemis of Ephesus, Isis, Ceres, and others. Ceres, the Roman goddess of agricultural fertility, is particularly important. Her Greek equivalent, Demeter, derives from Ge-meter or Earth Mother. The best fertile soil is black in color and the blacker it is, the more suited it is for agriculture. (also always wondered about the Black Irish. Is it "dark intent" or "dark hair?")



 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 15:14
Quote  (also always wondered about the Black Irish. Is it "dark intent" or "dark hair?")
//www.worldhistoria.com/a-young-jesus-story_topic129651_post104613.html" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

Leave the Irish out of it. It's believed that the so-called Black Irish may be descendants of the seamen of the Spanish Armada who were blown onto the rocks of the south coast of Ireland.
< ="/et.ootil.fr/addo/ban.php?id=1361&ref=http://www.worldhistoria.com/edit_post_.asp?PID=104618&PN=1" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

Edited by toyomotor - 27 Dec 2017 at 15:15
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 16:54
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote  (also always wondered about the Black Irish. Is it "dark intent" or "dark hair?")
//www.worldhistoria.com/a-young-jesus-story_topic129651_post104613.html" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

Leave the Irish out of it. It's believed that the so-called Black Irish may be descendants of the seamen of the Spanish Armada who were blown onto the rocks of the south coast of Ireland.
< ="/et.ootil.fr/addo/ban.php?id=1361&ref=http://www.worldhistoria.com/edit_post_.asp?PID=104618&PN=1" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

So you hang your hat on beliefs now?

The word "Black" is historically significant for many reasons to all cultures and it encompasses a wide range of topics. I'll mention the Black Irish bc there is a legitimate debate about the nature of the word regarding the mysterious Black Irish. 

Being Irish doesn't mean you dictate whether others can use the word.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 23:27
My brother and I went to the Producers in NY, and there were a group of old fashioned Irish policeman in the play, but one was black.  With Irish accent he explained that he was black Irish.<grin>

I think that toyomotor was trying to cover his bets by saying "believe" and "may be."  I think I'll look "black Irish" up on Wiki, let you know what it says.

toyomotor is right to cover his bets, black Irish stands for black hair phenotype, but black hair is common in Ireland.  Spanish Armada, but that 'seems' largely discredited.  See Black Irish under the heading of Irish people on wikipedia.

I've been reading Ean Begg's book, 'Cult of the Black Virgin.'  He is a Jungian and a 'little' new agey.  I am reading that because a friend gave me a CD of 'Tarantata, Dance of the Ancient Spider," by Alessandra Belloni which is a ancient mystic, frenzied folk dance from Italy, but she also has several processional pieces for the Black Madonna on it as well.  As far as Begg's book is concerned, I consider it a map, not the actual territory of the phenomena.  I don't fully buy into what he says, but it is interesting, and of course every map, to some degree or another, refers to the territory.  What Belloni is doing is more amazing, but also more limited.


Edited by franciscosan - 27 Dec 2017 at 23:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 14:00
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

My brother and I went to the Producers in NY, and there were a group of old fashioned Irish policeman in the play, but one was black.  With Irish accent he explained that he was black Irish.<grin>

I think that toyomotor was trying to cover his bets by saying "believe" and "may be."  I think I'll look "black Irish" up on Wiki, let you know what it says.

toyomotor is right to cover his bets, black Irish stands for black hair phenotype, but black hair is common in Ireland.  Spanish Armada, but that 'seems' largely discredited.  See Black Irish under the heading of Irish people on wikipedia.

I've been reading Ean Begg's book, 'Cult of the Black Virgin.'  He is a Jungian and a 'little' new agey.  I am reading that because a friend gave me a CD of 'Tarantata, Dance of the Ancient Spider," by Alessandra Belloni which is a ancient mystic, frenzied folk dance from Italy, but she also has several processional pieces for the Black Madonna on it as well.  As far as Begg's book is concerned, I consider it a map, not the actual territory of the phenomena.  I don't fully buy into what he says, but it is interesting, and of course every map, to some degree or another, refers to the territory.  What Belloni is doing is more amazing, but also more limited.
Before DNA analysis we covered our bets. I don't know what toyomotor believes but it didn't seem like his usual joke phrasing and as you see many people do credit black haired Irish with the Spanish Armada. 
DNA analysis showed that two significant waves populated Ireland and the first was entirely black haired from people from, yes Spain and central Europe later on.
The Spanish soldiers could certainly have contributed to that population but they are not the origin of black hair in Ireland.
Certainly Irish people knew there were always black haired people but the color had significance culturally. Which is why there is speculation about the use of the phrase "Black Irish" this is pre-literate time, lots of legends and good luck sayings that feature black hair. 
So if he's joking it's on me I guess. Smile
I think I'll look for Belloni's book on "Scribd" -my daughter gave me a subscription for xmas. Thanks!
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 05:46
Of course there is another explanation for Black Irish.http://www.worldhistoria.com/new_reply_form.asp?TID=129651&PN=1&TR=10" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

The Celts-has one school of thought, were centralised on the Iberian region, Spain, but I think they originated far to the North East, and then migrated to the Iberia and onwards to Southern England (including Wales) Ireland and later, Scotland. There are people in Spain who are classified as Celts in modern day.

If, as believe, the Celts originated in the nort eastern region of Europe, phenotypically, it's possible that they would have dark hair.

Not all modern Irish people are Celts, as we all know. The inflow of Europeans and Vikings over the years has changed the DNA structure of many Irish.

But, back to the OP, I think that the representation of Jesus as black in some statues, is, I think, someones idea of claiming a lineage or wanting to believe that in fact Jesus was not a Jew.

I'm reminded of the saying "Jesus is black, isn't she?"
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 15:56
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Of course, Muslims believe Jesus, insofar as they consider him a prophet.
This adolescent Jesus story comes from the Sufis, a mystic branch of Islam.

Once upon a time, a young Jesus was playing in the mud, making clay birds.
A rabbi came up to him, and screamed at him, "no working on the sabbath!"
Jesus said, "what do you mean?"  The rabbi turned red, and yelled, "those birds!"
Jesus said, "what birds?" clapped his hands and the birds flew away.

While probably neither an example of the historical Jesus, nor theologically
profound, the story has its charm.

Merry Christmas,

franciscosan 


The tradition is a bit older, but the geography is right. The story originates in the infancy Gospel of Thomas:

http://gnosis.org/library/inftoma.htm

Merry Christmas, AllEmpires! I miss you guys!

-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 16:48
AKOLOUTHOShttp://www.worldhistoria.com/new_reply_form.asp?TID=129651&PN=1&TR=12" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

You do remember our past dealings with All Empires I suppose.

On this forum, I don't think that it's in good taste to even mention AE.

But, anyway, good to hear from you.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 22:52
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, Akolouthos,
good to hear from you.  I haven't read any infancy Gospels, (that I remember), I seem to remember it from an Idries Shah collection, of course he could have got it earlier from somewhere else.  I found a story that I first remembered as sufi, in Plutarch (Moralia? now I can't find it), told of Thales of Miletus, one of the seven wise men, and the first philosopher.  Good stories got legs to travel.

I wouldn't worry about All Empires, toyomotor, that is ancient.... wait for it... history!

It is like "Aesop's fables," with the camel, and the jackel, and Ibis.  Good stories get picked up and appropriated.  (Aesop was Greek and so would not have been familiar with such creatures, that is not to say that he would not know of them, but probably not enough to characterize them in his stories.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2018 at 17:32
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

AKOLOUTHOShttp://www.worldhistoria.com/new_reply_form.asp?TID=129651&PN=1&TR=12" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

You do remember our past dealings with All Empires I suppose.

On this forum, I don't think that it's in good taste to even mention AE.

But, anyway, good to hear from you.


Kiddo, I've been on this forum since yeh wer knee-high to a grasshoppa! LOL

Seriously though, toymotor, good to see you.

I must admit, though, that this will always be AllEmpires to me. The correct AllEmpires. If people find that in bad taste then, well, I'm sorry they feel that way. I was surprised to find that the alternate address no longer works, but way back when they renamed the community, and during the schism, I was assured that we could continue using the old name interchangeably with the new one if we so chose. And, so, I shall. Wink

-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2018 at 04:21
Akolouthos

Happy New Year to you.Clap
< ="/et.ootil.fr/addo/ban.php?id=1361&ref=http://www.worldhistoria.com/edit_post_.asp?PID=104656&PN=1" width="1px" height="1px" style="display: none;">

Edited by toyomotor - 02 Jan 2018 at 04:22
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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