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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 00:46
True. Australia was a very poor continent in local varieties of vegetables, I guess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 02:53
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

True. Australia was a very poor continent in local varieties of vegetables, I guess.

I don't think that's necessarily true, its just when the English came they didn't care about what was already there. They cleared all the land so they could run sheep or cattle, not caring if what they cleared was edible or not. There weren't interested in Bush Tucker. I'm not sure how much of that information still exists, probably more I think if you know who to ask, but its not widespread knowledge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 04:51
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

For goodness sakes, Carch, the pineapple originated in what would today be Paraguay, but you are not getting them for your table from there, that's for sure. And no Aztec ever sucked on a green mango but I doubt anyone purchasing a "filipino" on the streets of Morelia gives a hang as to the "original" setting for the blasted thing. And if you want to know who did spread knowledge of these edibles from beyond Europe's borders among them you will find your betes noires: missionaries. We won't mention assorted conquering groups interested in maintaining a "home cooked" kitchen. So let deal with reality and none of this romantic gobbledy-gook until you show me an Aymara cook introducing the potato to Dublin!


Just look around, there are plenty of foodstuffs from all around the world that are actually sold by people who come from the same countries as those foods come from. There are also a lot of recipes from different countries which teach us how to process and cook the edibles that comes from there. And do not forget all the foreign restaurants where you can try foreign dishes, cooked by people from different countries.

For example: if there had been no Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese or Indian restaurants, cooks and recipes, our knowledge about rice dishes would maybe still be limited to cooking rice porridge.

And also about indigenous peoples and different foodstuffs. Without the indigenous peoples knowledge the westerners that later brought with them these products would hardly have known or understood that they were edible (which would have meant that they never brought them here in the first place and our kitchens would thus have missed a lot of good and healthy products).



Edited by Carcharodon - 06 Jan 2010 at 15:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 10:58
Absolutely. And don't for get those indigenous people breed and selected those agricultural products during thousand of years before becoming global. Part of the properties of those products are the result of artificial selection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 15:40
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Absolutely. And don't for get those indigenous people breed and selected those agricultural products during thousand of years before becoming global. Part of the properties of those products are the result of artificial selection.


Agree with you.




Edited by Carcharodon - 06 Jan 2010 at 15:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 16:37
Another thread bites the dust because of the false pedantry of the supercilious. This one really deserves an award akin to an Ignoble--let us call it the Ignoramii--
 
For example: if there had been no Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese or Indian restaurants, cooks and recipes, our knowledge about rice dishes would maybe still be limited to cooking rice porridge.

or the nascent Mendelian:
 
Absolutely. And don't for get those indigenous people breed and selected those agricultural products during thousand of years before becoming global. Part of the properties of those products are the result of artificial selection
 
Pompous tommy-rot dangling glittering generalities so as to garland a sickly sapling! Omar do not waste your time in explaining how knowledge of edibility came about. They obviously did not get the underlying theme of Genesis.


Edited by drgonzaga - 06 Jan 2010 at 16:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 17:28
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Another thread bites the dust because of the false pedantry of the supercilious.


Why?

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


 This one really deserves an award akin to an Ignoble--let us call it the Ignoramii--


Why?
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


For example: if there had been no Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese or Indian restaurants, cooks and recipes, our knowledge about rice dishes would maybe still be limited to cooking rice porridge.


Your argument?

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


or the nascent Mendelian:
 
Absolutely. And don't for get those indigenous people breed and selected those agricultural products during thousand of years before becoming global. Part of the properties of those products are the result of artificial selection


What are your arguments?


Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Pompous tommy-rot dangling glittering generalities so as to garland a sickly sapling! Omar do not waste your time in explaining how knowledge of edibility came about. They obviously did not get the underlying theme of Genesis.


Explain yourself. The posts before were very clear. Otherwise, I will think you are just an intellectual troll
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 17:47
Nonsense! And if you can not see it, then no further evidence is required.
 
Carch maintains that the proper "cooking" or rice was unknown in Europe until the advent of the Chinese restaurant! Any Andalusian would be roaring in the aisles with gales of laughter. And you Pinguin, have the Amerinds as geneticists quite different from any other prehistoric peoples on the surface of the globe! If you do not see the absurdity of it all, there is little to discuss.
 
Given that serious historical rejoinder has had no effect on all of these pretensions being passed off as intellectualizations, it is long past the time for a call to restore the integrity of the Forum. If such malarkey continues, then full blown satire is the only rational response.


Edited by drgonzaga - 06 Jan 2010 at 17:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 18:02
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

And you Pinguin, have the Amerinds as geneticists quite different from any other prehistoric peoples on the surface of the globe! If you do not see the absurdity of it all, there is little to discuss....


Where did I claim amerindians were geneticists?

I said that thanks to the breeding and selection the plants they grew acquired PART of its properties.

For instance, maize can't reproduce without human intervention, because the plant changed to become more compacted and by now the seeds are kept in the cob.

All your arguments are nonsense. Confused

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 19:34
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Nonsense! And if you can not see it, then no further evidence is required.
 
Carch maintains that the proper "cooking" or rice was unknown in Europe until the advent of the Chinese restaurant! Any Andalusian would be roaring in the aisles with gales of laughter. And you Pinguin, have the Amerinds as geneticists quite different from any other prehistoric peoples on the surface of the globe! If you do not see the absurdity of it all, there is little to discuss.
 
Given that serious historical rejoinder has had no effect on all of these pretensions being passed off as intellectualizations, it is long past the time for a call to restore the integrity of the Forum. If such malarkey continues, then full blown satire is the only rational response.


The dishes with rice  would indeed  be severely limited without the presense of the Asian peoples that were the ones that first cultivated rice and who where the ones that for thousands of years developed a very rich pletora of dishes where rice is an important ingredient.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 21:24
Obviously, neither of you understand that the "domestication" of local weeds is a parallel development of most cultures. What is even funnier is the fact that cultivators in Africa had a rice (Oryza glaberrima) all of their own by 3500 BC distinct from that of Asia (Oryza sativa). As for you Pinguin, if you wish to discuss teosinte and the complexity of Zea mayse with any degree of competence I suggest you hit the books and not the Internet keys!
 
And Carch, you are no Julia Child so kindly lay off of the inane when it comes to cuisine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 22:03
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Obviously, neither of you understand that the "domestication" of local weeds is a parallel development of most cultures. What is even funnier is the fact that cultivators in Africa had a rice (Oryza glaberrima) all of their own by 3500 BC distinct from that of Asia (Oryza sativa).


Thats off the point. When it concerns the great variety of dishes with rice  in toadys western countries they are mostly taught from Asians or upheld by Asians.

Western food of today would be rather booring and less varied without all the contributions from other continents or other cultures.




Edited by Carcharodon - 06 Jan 2010 at 22:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 22:29
Malarkey...just because Sweden is domestically challenged when it comes to foodstuff. it does not mean the rest of the world is...I have rice every day and not once does it resemble anything found in a Chinese or Indian restaurant--in fact I do not like curry and to drown rice in soy sauce is a culinary crime! So get off of it before I contemplate salting you to taste!
 
By the way, tonight I plan a dish of Moros y Cristianos! I can always substitute the pork with a hock of Carcharadon!


Edited by drgonzaga - 06 Jan 2010 at 23:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 22:33
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Malarkey...just because Sweden is domestically challenged when it comes to foodstuff. it does not mean the rest of the world is...I have rice every day and not once does it resemble anything found in a Chinese or Indian restaurant--in fact I do not like curry and to drown rice in soy sauce is a culinary crime! So get off of it before I contemplate salting you taste!


Rice in a western setting is mainly a product of Asia and Asian knowledge of rice cultivation. Many so called western rice dishes have also an origin in Asian cousine or in Asian foodstuffs, products that westerners also picked up from Asia and Asian people. So many basic ideas of rice dishes one can still thank the Asians for.

And so is it of course with a lot of other foods in the western world, they are loans from, or at least inspired by other cultures. Nothing to be ashamed over.



Edited by Carcharodon - 06 Jan 2010 at 22:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 23:05
ROTFLMAO to the above...there's nothing Chinese about Moros y Cristianos. You probably think that Phaseolus vulgaris is the Chinese "black" bean. A Western setting is not limited to the environs of Stockholm, so get a grip. I doubt that you've even heard about Zizania...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 23:11
I did not say that all western dishes with rice are Asian (except most of the rice) but that many has its roots in Asian knowledge of how to make dishes suitable for rice, what flavors and spices to use and similar. And so is it with the treatment of a lot of other foodstuffs, part of the knowledge about them comes from other cultures.
But of course there are a lot of mixing so sometimes it can he hard to discern what is what.

Still without other continents, and cultures, western food would be much less varied and more dull.

And growing Phaseolus vulgaris was from the beginning hardly a result from western culture but from the culture of Amerindians.

Edited by Carcharodon - 06 Jan 2010 at 23:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:11
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Obviously, neither of you understand that the "domestication" of local weeds is a parallel development of most cultures.
 
Why do you assume we don't understand? Besides, what's your point?
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

What is even funnier is the fact that cultivators in Africa had a rice (Oryza glaberrima) all of their own by 3500 BC distinct from that of Asia (Oryza sativa).
 
North American Indians also have wild rice. However, why it is funny?  And what's your point? And what it has to do with the topic?
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 As for you Pinguin, if you wish to discuss teosinte and the complexity of Zea mayse with any degree of competence I suggest you hit the books and not the Internet keys! 
 
There is not need to do so. If you want to discuss the basic principles of evolution, genetics and population genetics, math included, no problem.
 
Always remember, Drgonzaga "Lo que natura no da, Salamanca no presta". Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dawn- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:23
You two or should I say three, this is the most ridiculous argument I have ever seen. Neither one of you are Julia Child ( thank the deities) nor particularly qualified on the subject unless the fact that you eat is qualification enough. 

First off there has not been a new cooking technique (barring Microwave and that is not really cooking ) in a 1000 years or more. They are all  variations and adaptations of a few basic techniques. I could name them for you but I doubt your interested.  There has not been a truly new (if you exclude genetic manipulation ,which includes cross breeding) in just about that long.  New dishes all come down to adaptation and /or accidental mutation of a recipe ( and I only use that for lack of a better term) 

 



Edited by Dawn - 07 Jan 2010 at 00:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 00:42
I bet you never saw the Inca terrace system, and the systematic selection of seed they had.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 01:25
Originally posted by Dawn Dawn wrote:

You two or should I say three, this is the most ridiculous argument I have ever seen. Neither one of you are Julia Child ( thank the deities) nor particularly qualified on the subject unless the fact that you eat is qualification enough. 

First off there has not been a new cooking technique (barring Microwave and that is not really cooking ) in a 1000 years or more. They are all  variations and adaptations of a few basic techniques. I could name them for you but I doubt your interested.  There has not been a truly new (if you exclude genetic manipulation ,which includes cross breeding) in just about that long.  New dishes all come down to adaptation and /or accidental mutation of a recipe ( and I only use that for lack of a better term)


Still there are of course local variants of how one cook and what ingredients one apply. That varies a lot. And of course many foodstuffs has an origin, but with contacts those foodstuffs, recipes and methods are spread to different places in different ways. So if a place have not had a certain foodstuff, or certain products (like different spices, cereals, vegetables, fruits and similar) they are of course new when they get introduced. Not new to the world but new to the place where they are introduced.
And everything is not only cooking. There are a lot of different ways to combine foodstuffs, chemicals and methods of processing to prepare the food in different ways and there are always some new methods invented.





Edited by Carcharodon - 07 Jan 2010 at 01:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 01:43
Give it up Dawn, I thought a bit of ridicule would bring some sense into their noggins all to no avail. At least through scientific observation we have now seen the effects of controlled breeding on the devolution of the species. And we didn't even need to bring a Wok to cook it up!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 03:20
I have to admit, I don't even know what your point is here Dr G. Carch is saying that western (North European) cuisine has borrowed significantly from other cultures recently. That would seem a fairly hard point to deny. Pingo is saying that we have altered the original plants through selection (breeding). That too, would seem pretty self evident.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 07 Jan 2010 at 03:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 04:25
Omar, it is phrasing such as the following (as quoted earlier) that raises eyebrows:
 
For example: if there had been no Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese or Indian restaurants, cooks and recipes, our knowledge about rice dishes would maybe still be limited to cooking rice porridge.
and...
And also about indigenous peoples and different foodstuffs. Without the indigenous peoples knowledge the westerners that later brought with them these products would hardly have known or understood that they were edible (which would have meant that they never brought them here in the first place and our kitchens would thus have missed a lot of good and healthy products).

But, you have to thread through all the muck--worse than that in a rice paddy--of disconnected conclusions with preposterous assertions to even pretend that what you conclude is what they are saying. Hell, Carch even bloviated about how it was Chinese restaurants that taught Europeans how to prepare rice! If we are going to speak of early cultivators of anything, we have to acknowledge that each made do with the grains that were available and that each practiced the identical haphazard selective processes. It has nothing to do with Chinese "genius" or Amerinds defining the techniques of geneticists. It is all the phony terminology that is grating. Just the use of the term "westerners" is silly. The spice trade had been of long standing in the Ancient World and rice was cultivated in the Iberian peninsula for centuries before any caravel set off into the Atlantic! And as I said long, long ago, the dispersion of comestibles has a history as old as Man himself and "cooking" belongs to the Paleolithic not to some ethnic composte! In a way, this type of talk is akin to the contemporary illness displayed by some "professionals": the padding of resumes!



Edited by drgonzaga - 07 Jan 2010 at 04:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 04:49
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Obviously, neither of you understand that the "domestication" of local weeds is a parallel development of most cultures. What is even funnier is the fact that cultivators in Africa had a rice (Oryza glaberrima) all of their own by 3500 BC distinct from that of Asia (Oryza sativa).


Thats off the point. When it concerns the great variety of dishes with rice  in toadys western countries they are mostly taught from Asians or upheld by Asians.

Western food of today would be rather booring and less varied without all the contributions from other continents or other cultures.
 
It is all to the point, and you are simply spouting ignorance given the fact that today's food crops bear scant resemblance to the originals. In a way you are giving voice to rather dumb racial stereotyping!


Edited by drgonzaga - 07 Jan 2010 at 04:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 16:49
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

But, you have to thread through all the muck--worse than that in a rice paddy--of disconnected conclusions with preposterous assertions to even pretend that what you conclude is what they are saying. Hell, Carch even bloviated about how it was Chinese restaurants that taught Europeans how to prepare rice! If we are going to speak of early cultivators of anything, we have to acknowledge that each made do with the grains that were available and that each practiced the identical haphazard selective processes. It has nothing to do with Chinese "genius" or Amerinds defining the techniques of geneticists. It is all the phony terminology that is grating. Just the use of the term "westerners" is silly. The spice trade had been of long standing in the Ancient World and rice was cultivated in the Iberian peninsula for centuries before any caravel set off into the Atlantic! And as I said long, long ago, the dispersion of comestibles has a history as old as Man himself and "cooking" belongs to the Paleolithic not to some ethnic composte! In a way, this type of talk is akin to the contemporary illness displayed by some "professionals": the padding of resumes!

The thing is that Carch seems often to be parroting the latest SAP politically correctness pamphlets. The stances on climate and natives are some of it; the "no foreign food without immigrants" is an often-cited benefit of multiculturalism.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 17:05
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
It is all to the point, and you are simply spouting ignorance given the fact that today's food crops bear scant resemblance to the originals. In a way you are giving voice to rather dumb racial stereotyping!


No stereoptyping. It is rather easy to see how the Euroepan countries have been enrichened by Asian (and other) foodstuffs and the knowledge about them. Those kitchens have contributed a lot.

And when concerns the foodstuff and crops from America (which originally were based on Amerindian knowledge) their impact can not be overestimated.


Edited by Carcharodon - 07 Jan 2010 at 17:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 17:13
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


The thing is that Carch seems often to be parroting the latest SAP politically correctness pamphlets. The stances on climate and natives are some of it; the "no foreign food without immigrants" is an often-cited benefit of multiculturalism.



Well, how often would you eat Chinese, Indian, Thai, Vietnamese, Indonesian, Japanese, Ethiopian, Turkish, Iranian or Mecican food (just as examples) if there were no immigrants. Either you must been very well read and interested in foreign foods (and be able to import many of the ingredients yourself) or you had to travel a lot to eat food from all these places and cultures if these immigrants were not here and could cook those dishes for you. It has nothing to do with political correctness, its just facts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 17:24
"Immigrants" slaving away in our "kitchens" so that we may eat correctly! ROTFLAMAO...I suppose, Carch, you believe the stuff served at Taco Bell is authentic cuisine because it's served by an undocumented alien!?!Evil Smile
 
There's nothing sublime here...just ridiculous from start to finish!
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 07 Jan 2010 at 17:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 17:35
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

"Immigrants" slaving away in our "kitchens" so that we may eat correctly! ROTFLAMAO...I suppose, Carch, you believe the stuff served at Taco Bell is authentic cuisine because it's served by an undocumented alien!?!Evil Smile
 
There's nothing sublime here...just ridiculous from start to finish!
  


Of course there are different quality of immigrant kitchens, some are bad some are good, some less authentic some more.
But I know personally some immigrants that hold kitchens of a high quality with authentic food (they for example import many of their ingredients themselves). And they are hardly slaves (even if they work hard sometimes) and the revenues go to themselves.



Edited by Carcharodon - 07 Jan 2010 at 18:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2010 at 00:04
You shouldn't forget that the biggest change happened in the 16th century, when the Spaniard and Portuguese spread the fruits of the Americas and Asia all over the world.
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