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Aboriginal peoples in your country

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 03:01
Except. Pinguin, those romantic images--the weird uniforms no less--are all fiction. The actual "wars" for independence were more civil wars than anything else and often led by former loyal "bureaucrats" of the imperial system itself!  
 
As an aside: I often muse what would have happened, had the then Prince of the Asturias hot-footed it to Cadiz in 1808 and taken ship to Havana...                                
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 03:50
Balloney!!!
 
That's what Spanish schools may teach under theirs inquisitiorial regime... Not what we believe.
We are proud of the magnific defeat of Spain our people achieved.
With respect to Spain... Better alone than in bad company.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 08 Nov 2009 at 03:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 06:19

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

What's beyond serious debate is that a crime must be specifically and narrowly defined to be the subjet of legislation.

The wish to have your own definition just so you can stigmatise actions you disapprove of is at base childish. 'Genocide' becomes a totally useless term if all it means is mass murder or 'hate crime'. (Again, why do you never answer any of these points? All you do is quote other people making the same mistake, usually it would appear for the same reason.)


This is not a court, this is a discussion, and in discussion one can also question definitions. And as I said there is an ongoing debate and discussion worldwide about the definition and meaning of the word genocide. Words like this are all the time discussed and redefined.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

And yours is that 'aboriginal' peoples are more deserving than other groups? Why? Why is it wrse to discriminate against people whove been somewhere a long time than to discriminat against recent immigrans?


Noone discriminates, but one also needs to have to put the spotlight on aboriginal peoples whos land are stolen from them and whos cultures risks to get swamped in the mainstream mass cultures that invade them.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You continually dodge the issue. Why is it worse when that happens to 'aborigines' than when it happens to other people?

Nooen say one thing is worse than other. I just think the question about aboriginal people is worth paying attention to. If you want to pay attention to or discuss other groups then it is up to you.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I don't know enough about Swedish history to comment. But certainly the Anglo-Saxons took England at least by force from the British, breaking promises when they did so. And the norkans took it from the Anglo-Saxons, though not so far as I know breaking promises in doing so.

That was a while ago, and the Anglo saxons are not today still stealing England from the old brits and diplacing them, or murdering them or exterminate them..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 06:25
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Of course. These damn Spaniards ancestors of ours, that mixed with local Indigenous women, make us always be in the middle of a Hamletianian dilema. They should had stayed at Europe instead, and never ventured to the Paradyse... I mean, the New World. 
 
Today is too late, though.


Not to late. There are still natives who can be rescued from destruction or being swamped by the mainstream culture.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

With respect to Indians claiming they are Indians, we can tell them we, mixed, are Indians too, so we don't find natives have any special priviledge to the land that we lack.


There are actually natives who still live in a fairly traditional way, keeping at least parts of their old cultures and languages alive. There are those who still live on their own land and ought to be able to keep that land from being stolen from them in the name of economic progress.

 




Edited by Carcharodon - 08 Nov 2009 at 06:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 12:05
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

What's beyond serious debate is that a crime must be specifically and narrowly defined to be the subjet of legislation.

The wish to have your own definition just so you can stigmatise actions you disapprove of is at base childish. 'Genocide' becomes a totally useless term if all it means is mass murder or 'hate crime'. (Again, why do you never answer any of these points? All you do is quote other people making the same mistake, usually it would appear for the same reason.)


This is not a court, this is a discussion, and in discussion one can also question definitions. And as I said there is an ongoing debate and discussion worldwide about the definition and meaning of the word genocide. Words like this are all the time discussed and redefined.

I never said the problem was a rare one. There are evident political gains to be made from distrting word meanings. However, genocide is a criminal act, and whether genocide has been committed or not is a question to be decided by a court, and the opinion whether something is genocide or not must take into account the court's rules and definitions.
 
People can argue all they like about what 'theft' might mean, but if the criminal law in the relevant jurisdictin doesn't say it is theft then it isn't theft. For instance, obtaining goods with a fraudulent cheque is not theft under English law.

Quote

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

And yours is that 'aboriginal' peoples are more deserving than other groups? Why? Why is it wrse to discriminate against people whove been somewhere a long time than to discriminat against recent immigrans?


Noone discriminates, but one also needs to have to put the spotlight on aboriginal peoples whos land are stolen from them and whos cultures risks to get swamped in the mainstream mass cultures that invade them.

You are totally determined never to answer any question that's out to you, aren't you?
 
Why is stealing land from aborigines any more important than stealing land from anyone else?
(But of course you won't answer that either.)
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You continually dodge the issue. Why is it worse when that happens to 'aborigines' than when it happens to other people?

Nooen say one thing is worse than other. I just think the question about aboriginal people is worth paying attention to. If you want to pay attention to or discuss other groups then it is up to you.

That you restrict the topic to aboriginal peoples indicates that you see something specially deserving about 'aboriginal' peoples, so that it is 'worth paying attention to' whereas other people's problems aren't.
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I don't know enough about Swedish history to comment. But certainly the Anglo-Saxons took England at least by force from the British, breaking promises when they did so. And the norkans took it from the Anglo-Saxons, though not so far as I know breaking promises in doing so.

That was a while ago, and the Anglo saxons are not today still stealing England from the old brits and diplacing them, or murdering them or exterminate them..

So - and this is the umpteenth time I or someone else has asked this and you never answer - how long ago does it have to be to not matter any more?
 
Nobody's left alve that partook in the activities of Julius Popper, just as there are none of the original Anglo-Saxons left alive. So why do you quote Julius Popper?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 12:09
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

With respect to Indians claiming they are Indians, we can tell them we, mixed, are Indians too, so we don't find natives have any special priviledge to the land that we lack.


There are actually natives who still live in a fairly traditional way, keeping at least parts of their old cultures and languages alive.
And dying from the same old diseases, and circumcising their female children, and getting killed by the same old wild animals, and starving in the same old way, and occasionally killing each other in the same old tribal conflicts....
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There are those who still live on their own land and ought to be able to keep that land from being stolen from them in the name of economic progress.
Why do you want to deprive them of the economic and social progress the rest of us in general benefit from?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 12:21
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
Not to late. There are still natives who can be rescued from destruction or being swamped by the mainstream culture.
 
Don't be silly. You can't keep people in a bottle, like a collector of insects keep ants.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
There are actually natives who still live in a fairly traditional way, keeping at least parts of their old cultures and languages alive. There are those who still live on their own land and ought to be able to keep that land from being stolen from them in the name of economic progress.
 
Absolutely. The rights to land must be respected.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 12:26
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
And dying from the same old diseases, and circumcising their female children, and getting killed by the same old wild animals, and starving in the same old way, and occasionally killing each other in the same old tribal conflicts....
 
Indigenous people aren't dumb. They realize modernizing is the way. The biggest problem for indigenous groups is that young people move to the cities looking for better opportunities, leaving theirs land empty, except by old people.
That has happened everywhere in South America with the last indigenous groups that remain.
There are places in the Andes, for instance, where in the whole town only leave one or two people, and just once a year all the family reunite in the old town to remember the indigenous past. The rest of the way they are just common people in an average city.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 12:40

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


And dying from the same old diseases, and circumcising their female children, and getting killed by the same old wild animals, and starving in the same old way, and occasionally killing each other in the same old tribal conflicts....


Well, there can actually be a combination, keeping ones culture and still have a contact and even be a part of modern society. For example the Sami people in Sweden do not starve or do not circumcice their children and have no tribal conflicts with killings and similar.

And for example in Brazil there is much more violence, powerty and starvation in the slums of modern cities than in any indian village out in the rainforest.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Why do you want to deprive them of the economic and social progress the rest of us in general benefit from?


To keep their land is really an important condition to be able to make economic and social progress. As for example in the Amazon, when the natives loose their land and culture they to often end up in some terrible slum with alcoholism, violence, suicide and utter powerty. That is not progress. How can they progress if their economic base is stolen from them?
 

According to Un treatises and other writings aboriginal peoples have the right to their land and also to develop according to their own culture.

About the United Nations Declaration on Rights of Indigenous Peoples:

The Declaration sets out the individual and collective rights of indigenous peoples, as well as their rights to culture, identity, language, employment, health, education and other issues. It emphasizes the rights of indigenous peoples to maintain and strengthen their own institutions, cultures and traditions and to pursue their development in keeping with their own needs and aspirations. The Declaration prohibits discrimination against indigenous peoples and promotes their full and effective participation in all matters that concern them, and their right to remain distinct and to pursue their own visions of economic and social development. Furthermore, the Declaration calls upon states parties to recognise the right of indigenous peoples to the lands and resources which they have traditionally owned, occupied or used and the rights to compensation and redress.


http://www.humanrights.is/the-human-rights-project/humanrightscasesandmaterials/humanrightsconceptsideasandfora/Undirflokkur/indigenouspeoples/


And about entering the modern world, and about developing. In several places there are very promising projects where indegenous peoples are developing strategies to be able to develop on their own terms, without loosing language, traditions and culture. Those projects also work with making  sustainable strattegies for economic development and subsistence. Also education that do not bereft these people of their cultural heritage. But many such efforts are sabotaged by representants for the mainstream society who for economical, political or religious reasons do not want to have self sustaining, culturally independant peoples, but want to take their land and resources and to turn them into a pool of poor proletarians easy to take advantage of.

In the thread Save Xingu peoples from destruction I put many links about these kind of matters. Also there you can see the example with the Xingu peoples who are in the middle of a development on their own terms, with their own schools and different promising economic projects. But all that is threatend because of greedy farmers, illegal loggers, and developers and other intruders, in a constant hunt for natural resources and land. And on top of that the government are planning a series of enourmous hydroelectrical dams that threatens the Xingupeoples and their environment with destruction.




Edited by Carcharodon - 08 Nov 2009 at 14:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 12:41

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

.
Don't be silly. You can't keep people in a bottle, like a collector of insects keep ants.

Its not about what others want, its about their own wish, and there are several peoples who actually wish to develop on their own terms, not being forced into another culture against their own will.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 12:58
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Its not about what others want, its about their own wish, and there are several peoples who actually wish to develop on their own terms, not being forced into another culture against their own will.
 
In that case ask them. Not put yourself as theirs representative. Given a chance, all humans want to get into the modern world, and that's something we have seen in South America since 500 years ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 13:11
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
In that case ask them. Not put yourself as theirs representative. Given a chance, all humans want to get into the modern world, and that's something we have seen in South America since 500 years ago.


I do not speak for all indigenous people, but I can at least mention that there are enough many that want to live with their own culture, their own traditions and on their own land. I have had contact with some representatives of such peoples, and also with people who work together with them, so I can at least say that.

And being driven from ones land (sometimes by force), loosing ones culture and end up in utmost powerty is not to enter the modern world.

Just watch this example of the results of displacement:

http://www.survival.es/news/4537


Edited by Carcharodon - 08 Nov 2009 at 14:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 15:11

Survival International again?

Fellow, we South Americans know better about the topic than those idiots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 15:16
Just a little nugget for further mining of the topic:
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 15:40
A very complex issue, indeed. Nowhere in the Americas is fully resolved, no matter there have been lot of progress since the time hunting Indians was a normal activity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 15:46
Why, I hear that "hunting Indians" is one of the more favored pastimes for underemployed EuropeansEvil Smile...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 16:01
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Why, I hear that "hunting Indians" is one of the more favored pastimes for underemployed EuropeansEvil Smile...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 16:55
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Survival International again?

Fellow, we South Americans know better about the topic than those idiots.


Same arguments again Pinguin? Just because you happen to live in South America you think you know everything about the continent and everything about all people who live there. As you should know South America is a large continent with several countires located in different environments. Conditions differ in those places, and also within the countries. And people differ also in opinions and beliefs, and also in level of education and knowledge. To lump everyone together and say we Know this and that because we are born here is just meaningless.

Organisations such as Survival and other human rights organisations has a lot of experience in the fields they work in. Many members of such organisations are themselves Latin Americans and also those who are not have a lot of knowledge and experience in matters concerning the situation of the Amerindians. And even more, Survival works together with the natives own organistations, who are those who knows best about their own situation.

And compared with the knowledge experienced members of Survival have, your knowledge about these issues are very shallow and insignificant, even if you happen to be born and live in South America.
So you have no cause calling them names.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 20:19
Organisations such as Survival and other human rights organisations has a lot of experience in the fields...
 
As if on cue, what luck! See, Pinguin, what did I tell you? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 21:44
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Organisations such as Survival and other human rights organisations has a lot of experience in the fields...
 
As if on cue, what luck! See, Pinguin, what did I tell you? 
 
 
Clear as water... LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2009 at 08:07
It seems that the thought of indigenous peoples having the right to decide their own future is a thorn in the eye for some people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2009 at 11:48
You completely misunderstand to a degree that makes it look deliberate.
 
The argument is between you saying indigenous peoples should have the right to decide there own futures and those who believe all peoples should have the right to decide their own future.
 
You're the one preaching discrimination.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2009 at 12:09
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

You completely misunderstand to a degree that makes it look deliberate.
 
The argument is between you saying indigenous peoples should have the right to decide there own futures and those who believe all peoples should have the right to decide their own future.
 
You're the one preaching discrimination.


It is you that totally misunderstand (deliberately?). I never said that other, non aboriginal, peoples should not have the right to decide their future. Noone preaches discrimination. I just tried to defend the rights of some opressed aboriginal peoples. But for some reason that do not seem popular among some people here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2009 at 13:16
Carch, do you not grasp the Orwellian undercurrent in your protestations: All people are equal, but some people are more equal than others. In the first decades of the 21st century, do you not realize the implications of "rights" premised upon segregation and isolation! Just the terminology should give you pause: Indigenous Parks!

Edited by drgonzaga - 09 Nov 2009 at 13:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2009 at 13:40
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Carch, do you not grasp the Orwellian undercurrent in your protestations: All people are equal, but some people are more equal than others. In the first decades of the 21st century, do you not realize the implications of "rights" premised upon segregation and isolation! Just the terminology should give you pause: Indigenous Parks!


It is not unreasonable that some people who have lived in a place for ages shall also have the right to keep some of their land and to be able to keep their culture and traditions. And it is not something I have come up with. There is even a United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/en/drip.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2009 at 15:10
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Carch, do you not grasp the Orwellian undercurrent in your protestations: All people are equal, but some people are more equal than others. In the first decades of the 21st century, do you not realize the implications of "rights" premised upon segregation and isolation! Just the terminology should give you pause: Indigenous Parks!


It is not unreasonable that some people who have lived in a place for ages shall also have the right to keep some of their land and to be able to keep their culture and traditions. And it is not something I have come up with. There is even a United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/en/drip.html
 
"Affirming that indigenous peoples are equal to all other peoples, while recognizing the right of all peoples to be different, to consider themselves different, and to be respected as such,"
 
No-one is disputing that indigenous peoples are equal to all other peoples (especially since we're all indigenous anyway). However as drgonzaga points out, you're claiming they should be more equal than others - which the UN declaration is careful not to do.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2009 at 15:14
I never said they are more equal than anyone, just that their rights should be recognized and respected, which they are not always in the practical reality out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2009 at 23:18
Carch:  In re: "I never said they are more equal than anyone, just that their rights should be recognized and respected, which they are not always in the practical reality out there."

A statement that I think everyone here would agree with. I am not a fan of the present government of Vietnam. Yet I recognize that they have made efforts to educate ethnic Vietnamese to respect their minority indigenous neighbors in day to day relations. Unfortunately, Vietnamese ethnocentrism and chauvinism is not easily overcome, and the government continues with measures designed to eradicate customs, such as communal property and multi-family 'longhouses', which in the long run only reinforces the prejudices of those at the lowest levels. No one within any society should be 'more equal' than others, and everyone's rights should be respected. But even within the confines of an authoritarian socialist government, conduct at the very bottom, where the 'rubber meets the road' is very difficult to change from the top.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2009 at 07:13
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Unfortunately, Vietnamese ethnocentrism and chauvinism is not easily overcome, and the government continues with measures designed to eradicate customs, such as communal property and multi-family 'longhouses', which in the long run only reinforces the prejudices of those at the lowest levels.


Thanks for the info about Vietnam.
The efforts of eradicating cutoms as communal propertiy and multi family longhouses (or other forms of traditional buildings) seems to be rather common in many countries where one tries to integrate or assimilate aboriginal peoples in the mainstream society. What such things can mean for the local economy and for peoples health one can see several examples of. This kind of assimilation seems to be an international phenomena.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2009 at 11:01
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

I never said they are more equal than anyone, just that their rights should be recognized and respected, which they are not always in the practical reality out there.
 
You continually repeat that they should be given advantageous treatment because they are 'aborigines' (though you don't seem very clear about who's an 'aborigine' and who isn't).
 
 
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Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

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