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Aboriginal peoples in your country

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2009 at 14:54
I don't understand why there is confusion about the definitions.
 
'Indigenous' is clear. It means living where you were born. In Luxembourg I'm not indigenous; when in Wessex I am indigenous. The difficult part in determining whether a people is indigenous is not with the definition of 'indigenous', but with the definition of 'people' and in particular with the concept of a people being 'born'.
 
'Aboriginal' is also clear. It means 'there from the beginning'.  If you take that to mean when the people began, the problem is as above. If you take it to mean when the country/region began, then basically there are no aboriginal peoples and certainly no aborigines now.
 
"First inhabitants" would be a clearer concept, and even determinable objectively in some parts of the world, though it won't be determinable everywhere. Mostly one can tell which of two peoples represents the earlier inhabitants, subject to the difficulty of defining a people.
 
Lifestyle, culture, economic and political structures have nothing to do with the definition. I agree that generally speaking political motives are involved in the contemporary usage of the terminology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2009 at 22:09
Today more and more of the peoples who call themselves aboriginal or indigenous are coming together in meetings, conferences and also festivals. Here is the Riddu Riddu Internasjonal urfolksfestival (international aboriginal peoples festival) in Norway:
 
Welcome to the 18th Riddu Riddu Festival in Kaafjord, North Norway from Wednesday, July 15th to Sunday, July 19h, 2009. Riddu Riddu is an international indigenous festival featuring an extensive program with around 200 artists and 3,000 visitors representing different indigenous and other peoples from across the globe.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Jul 2009 at 22:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2009 at 23:35
I don't think the Sámi are more aboriginal, but I believe some of the issues exists because of some attempt to assimilate the Sámi in the past, whether by government or by a general population that may have looked down on them in the past (people who may be related to them, but who live like modern Northern Euros, and who therefore consider themselves Scandinavian.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 03:48
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Today more and more of the peoples who call themselves aboriginal or indigenous are coming together in meetings, conferences and also festivals. Here is the Riddu Riddu Internasjonal urfolksfestival (international aboriginal peoples festival) in Norway:
 ...
 
Pretty absurd. Aboriginal peoples don't have much in common, except the tribal lifestyle.
A Mapuche (tribal) has a lot more in common with an Inca (Citizen of a state) than with a tuareg(tribal), a Polynesian (Tribal) or an Australian Aboriguen (Tribal)
 
The rest is just New Age Romanticism with music of Lorena McKenitt .. LOL
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 07:44

Personally I do not know about the Swedish Saami, (did Saami arrive to Scandinavia through different routes ?)... nor whether Finns or Saami arrived to Finland first. Or whether they perhaps arrived simultaneously, since the Saami related mtDNA lines of my grandmothers-s-s-s, both V and U5b1 mutations are also still found in amongst "our" Volga-Ural region language relatives.

Considering too that Y-DNA Haplo N (signifying "Uralic") seems to be the most frequent haplogroup found among the Saami males, this may not be some more recent a mixture of my grandfathers-s-s-s with the now called "Saami".  In addition, there is the Uralic language similarity, which goes way back in time; - when ?

In my grandparents time in Karelia, there didn't seem to be division nor any discrimination between people of (now called) "Saami" ancestry and people of Finnish ancestry, they were all, just Karelians, and coming from that Finnish/"Saami" cultural mixture Karelian background, what I can tell is, that I have also learned to somewhat identify with the "indigenous" label, or rather have recognized it and not for any political reasons as such nor in (said) pretense, as though play-acting to be different in the face of "our common humanity".

Did read one Saami saying that: "Within our language is our culture".

But all this goes way beyond the mere vocalized words. Language is often based upon an unspoken, collective view of the world by it's speakers, i.e. upon an unspoken model of the world which gives a frame of reference in the background of awareness or attention; - reference which supports, interprets and gives meaning to all our experiences in life. (Quoting *Shor* a bit here ).

It would be totally absurd to say that the unspoken models of the world i.e. the worldviews of the traditional Australian Aboriginal Elders and White Australians are the same. Yet the mainstream society often imagines everybody as perceiving Reality in the same Western model manner and thus often also projects notions such as "our common humanity" when actually only speaking from this assumed sameness.

The mainstream Western cultural model, this sameness, - into which every indigenous person must assimilate into; - without mainstream members first having began to fathom the possibility of any other models even existing, let alone began to understand them and therefore began to recognize other models intrinsic value is the problem often.

As far as I have seen, there also is a cap between Saami and Swedish reality orientations.

To totally assimilate would mean death to Saami or any other indigenous cultures for that matter. In this instance, on one hand having the Uralic (language) world view of the world pole and the 3 worlds (see Saami Drum on this thread) ... human existence seen as only being a part of natural environment. These "nature culture" values, non-dualism ("Oneness with Nature", where "Man" does not reign supreme over Layers of Creation), the knowledge and the ways of interconnectedness (which were considered to be so evil)... All these and huge amount of more, are values indigenous people do not want to lose in the modern world which is hierarchical, where left hemispheric orientated linear thinking predominates and individual freedom and personal ego-incentives are central to existence.  Here is a clash of cultural values.

I don't know why history wouldn't come into the picture.  Saami have only slowly, relatively recently began to reclaim their right to their indigenous heritage. Some people are still carrying the shame put onto their parents and grandparents whose old ways worldviews and nature beliefs were considered as evil, inferior, criminal, - whatnot else, and well and truly woken up to the fact that they never were and are not !  Old ways, which some onlookers now even choose to mock as  "New Age". 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLq_3RecUjk

It is as though indigenous peoples in the world today need to become bi-lingual in terms of learning to juggle between different models of Reality. Different unspoken models of reality, which the mainstream culture does not generally see, recognize nor can therefore acknowledge as equally valid and valuable perspectives of Reality.

Some so called indigenous worldviews I have not, but Australian Aboriginal (unspoken) worldviews I have found to be psycho-spiritually so similar to those of my Saami (related) grandmothers, hence I have felt great empathy also for Aboriginal peoples struggles in Australia to preserve their languages and the culture for future generations. How this is achieved having to juggle both Realities, sometimes brings successes, sometimes not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8zAh3irMYo

Hope I made some sense to the reader into "indigeousness" (from my own personal perspective anyways).



Edited by Inah - 15 Jul 2009 at 08:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 11:25

Yes, you made sence Inah.

 

I also heard that at least some Sami feel more connected, culturally and also spiritually with other reindeer herding peoples in the east than with their neighbours of Swedish, Norwegian or Russian culture and heritage. People in the east that are reindeer herders and share many cultural similarieties with Sami reindeer herders are Samojeds, Ostjaks, Evenki, Jukagirs, Nenets, Tjuktjians and Korjaks.

 

The Sami author Oivind Ravna and his Nennish wife Zoia Vylka has written a fine book about how some of these reindeer herders live and how they percieve their world:

 
 Tundraens folk (the people of the Tundra)
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 15 Jul 2009 at 11:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 11:35
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Pretty absurd. Aboriginal peoples don't have much in common, except the tribal lifestyle.
A Mapuche (tribal) has a lot more in common with an Inca (Citizen of a state) than with a tuareg(tribal), a Polynesian (Tribal) or an Australian Aboriguen (Tribal)
 
The rest is just New Age Romanticism with music of Lorena McKenitt .. LOL
 
 
Well, if they feel that they have things in common, one can not just dismiss their feelings as New Age Romanticism. That is rather arrogant.
Among other things many aboriginal/indigenous peoples have in common are problems with surrounding peoples who do not understand their cultures and ways of life.


Edited by Carcharodon - 15 Jul 2009 at 11:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 16:15
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Pretty absurd. Aboriginal peoples don't have much in common, except the tribal lifestyle.
A Mapuche (tribal) has a lot more in common with an Inca (Citizen of a state) than with a tuareg(tribal), a Polynesian (Tribal) or an Australian Aboriguen (Tribal)
 
The rest is just New Age Romanticism with music of Lorena McKenitt .. LOL
 
 
Well, if they feel that they have things in common, one can not just dismiss their feelings as New Age Romanticism. That is rather arrogant.
Among other things many aboriginal/indigenous peoples have in common are problems with surrounding peoples who do not understand their cultures and ways of life.
 
What a fantastic statement: Problems with surrounding peoples! It is almost akin to the anthropologists who wished to maintain the integrity of a "stone age culture" in order to have specimens for future study. Placing aside the Romantic fascinated with folklore and the peculiarities of the transhumant, the logic involved is more than specious. A recitation of the crimes by dastardly Swedes gets a bit boring after a while and one wonders why Finland and Norway do not come in for a bashing--or for that matter the Russians. Whatever guilt trip modern Swedes are willing to assume is really beside the point but I can bet that the modern polities in Scandanavia would all shout enough if cultural "separatism" is translated into political action. And there the rub because modernization makes mush of economic isolationism and all of this New Age Romanticism also declares war upon the integrity of individual decision by peoples so classified. You can see how far the fantasy may extend--egads the circumpolar "tribes"--by visiting this site:
 
 
Hmm, I wonder how far I would get with the Turkish government if I demand the return of certain assets in Istanbul because I carry a bit of the Paleologus gene pool!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 17:01

Carcharodon wrote:

"I also heard that at least some Sami feel more connected, culturally and also spiritually with other reindeer herding peoples in the east than with their neighbours of Swedish, Norwegian or Russian culture and heritage. People in the east that are reindeer herders and share many cultural similarieties with Sami reindeer herders are Samojeds, Ostjaks, Evenki, Jukagirs, Nenets, Tjuktjians and Korjaks."

I do not doubt this at all.

Besides, apart from the reindeer herding culture, shamanic worldviews, common concerns about the Arctic environmental changes; -Saami also are, (because of their dual Berber & Uralic origins ... though long ways back) connected to Nenets, Ob-Ugrians, Evenks, Yakuts, Yakighirs etc. etc. etc. as are Eastern Finns, and some Karelians also feel the same way as some Saami do; -exactly. You were spot on there Carcharodon. 

There has also been talk about:
 
If this is proven to be true, same myths could certainly have been passed on with the old proposed proto Uralo-Siberian language. Myths like the Earth Diver creation stories, or the Totemic Ancestor stories f.e.x. about the Girl who married the Bear ... perhaps. Stories that may speak from way back shared Ancestral past, stories that gave us our world view and "reality orientation" and our belonging to the natural world .... stories that everyone loving their culture treasures. Stories that against many odds people have kept alive.

So why not co-operate, why not explore similarities, parallels, ancient connections and also celebrate the differences of many Arctic peoples cultures.

For the longest time Finns and Saami were supposed to be Mongolians, according to "surrounding peoples" science and when "we" disagreed, (no disrespect to Mongolians here though) "we" were supposed to be in denial of who we are due to said "low self-esteem".

Now that people are exploring ancient genetic and language connections to the east, all of a sudden this is  "fantasy".

Funny world ! 

But of course must be said that  many Saami, Finnish, Swedish and Norwegians are related to one another as well. So loyalties are there also to be acknowledged and juggled.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 17:27
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa Emperor Barbarossa wrote:

In my local area (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania), we had many Iroquois in the area before the English and Scots-Irish settled the area.
 
Ah, but were the Iroquois the aboriginal inhabitants of the Upper Ohio Valley? Hint: They were not...
unless one is willing to totally ignore just how arbitrary the term has become or set parameters vis a vis European contact at a specific time.


Then, technically, if you cannot call the Iroquois native, then how can you call the Sami, or any other people than Africans native to their lands? The Sami were not born in Scandinavia, they would have to have moved there at some point in history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 18:01

Africans native to theirs lands? How come? Bantues are invaders of the Pigmey and Khoisan territories. I bet the "Bantu go home" applies here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 18:05
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

  It is almost akin to the anthropologists who wished to maintain the integrity of a "stone age culture" in order to have specimens for future study.
 
ClapClapClapClapClapClap
 
Specimens!!! What an amazing and precise description of how New Age dreammers dehumanize natives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 18:33
It is interesting to watch many couch contemporary social, political and economic problems in terms of "cultural" integrity and fidelity to "life styles", notwithstanding the marginalization such whimsy entails. Besides the comedy involved--for example some "scholars" go on and on about the barbarity of Catholicism while extolling the simple virtues of shamanism and how such should be respected--the attempts at pathos truly become pathetic. What is the difference between the agitation for "homelands" by particular quasi-cultural groups and the "Homeland Policy" of the late and unlamented South African Republic? Better to banish the vocabulary of the infamous 19th century and its remnants that so plagued the 20th in order to properly address our contemporary problems more tied to discrimination and economic inequality than any fetish for antiquated classifications and distinctions. An inescapable fact of the 21st century is its complex urbanization and the needs for effective sustainability in terms of ever growing numbers. We all know the "gods must be crazy" but the craziness of certain "intellectuals" trangresses deific hubris in attempts to grant legitimacy to near anarchic conceptualizations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 18:35
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Africans native to theirs lands? How come? Bantues are invaders of the Pigmey and Khoisan territories. I bet the "Bantu go home" applies here.



I'm saying that if we follow this line of logic that "those people weren't always there, they moved there", then the only possible "aboriginals" could be in present day Africa (since the ancestors of humans all moved from Africa at some point).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 18:46
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa Emperor Barbarossa wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa Emperor Barbarossa wrote:

In my local area (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania), we had many Iroquois in the area before the English and Scots-Irish settled the area.
 
Ah, but were the Iroquois the aboriginal inhabitants of the Upper Ohio Valley? Hint: They were not...
unless one is willing to totally ignore just how arbitrary the term has become or set parameters vis a vis European contact at a specific time.


Then, technically, if you cannot call the Iroquois native, then how can you call the Sami, or any other people than Africans native to their lands? The Sami were not born in Scandinavia, they would have to have moved there at some point in history.
 
Show me a single Sami that was not born in Scandanavia! Or, to be more precise, as a citizen of any existing body politic. Further, show me how tending reindeer would suffice to sustain the necessary institutions such as educational, medical, pensions, and all of the other necessities of modern life save in some form that generates little more than dependency. In a way, proponents of certain hobgoblins are little more than contemporary Miss Grundys trying to find a way "to keep 'em down on the farm after seeing Paree"! Puting one's hand into the grab-bag of academic jargon and its pseudo-sciences--and yes even linguistics is a pseudo-science when it pontificates--neither addresses nor explains the problems of the present. To hell with "who was here first" and actually confront the here-and-now. To abuse the intellect by the formulation of all of these suppositions so as to obfuscate the very real problems of the present is an insult to our common humanity.


Edited by drgonzaga - 15 Jul 2009 at 18:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 19:02
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

What a fantastic statement: Problems with surrounding peoples! It is almost akin to the anthropologists who wished to maintain the integrity of a "stone age culture" in order to have specimens for future study. Placing aside the Romantic fascinated with folklore and the peculiarities of the transhumant, the logic involved is more than specious. A recitation of the crimes by dastardly Swedes gets a bit boring after a while and one wonders why Finland and Norway do not come in for a bashing--or for that matter the Russians. Whatever guilt trip modern Swedes are willing to assume is really beside the point but I can bet that the modern polities in Scandanavia would all shout enough if cultural "separatism" is translated into political action. And there the rub because modernization makes mush of economic isolationism and all of this New Age Romanticism also declares war upon the integrity of individual decision by peoples so classified. 
 
 
 
Well it seems that you think one shall totally disregard indigenous peoples own standpoints and just run them over (figuratively speaking). Indigenous peoples like the Samis, and also the eastern reindeer peoples I mentioned above, have been involved in land struggles with not only Sweden but also Norway and Russia (in its different shapes). For example in parts of Russia they are forced to leave ancestral lands because of the extraction of oil on their territories.
But maybe you just think that the organisations of the Samis and several other indigenous peoples are just indulging themselves in some sort of New Age trip of their own.
 
And who said anything about Stone Age??? 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 19:13
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 Show me a single Sami that was not born in Scandanavia! Or, to be more precise, as a citizen of any existing body politic.
 
I think the Emperor meant that the ancestors of the Samis one time came there from some other place.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 Further, show me how tending reindeer would suffice to sustain the necessary institutions such as educational, medical, pensions, and all of the other necessities of modern life save in some form that generates little more than dependency.
 
Not all Samis of today are reindeer herders, just some of them is. But struggle for land rights and struggle against discrimination is a reality also for those.
 
One can as an example take some building of hydro electric dams on lands earlier belonging to Samis. Still these same Samis did not get any real compensation for their loss or the gain that the majority society had of the dam. In fact some of those who lived close to the dams never got any electricity themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 19:17
You tried to make the claim that native Iroquois were not native, never explained why, and then give the Sami, an equally legitimate aboriginal people, native status. The Iroquois were native to New York, my mistake (memory from history I learned five years ago is a bit hazy), and attacked and assimilated the Monongahelas, a native tribe in the area. As for the I never said that the Sami were not aboriginal. As for the rest of your rant, I do not even know what you are talking about or trying to say. I am not abusing any sort of intellect or trying to be a pseudo-intellectual. You take a little mistake and start insulting me about some political issues I was not discussing nor attempting to delve into. I forgot that the Iroquois were technically not aborignial to Pennsylvania, but to New York, and from most of the history of Pennsylvania that I have studied (French and Indian War to today) I have always heard of the Iroquois presence in Western Pennsylvania. The town my dad is from, Monaca, is named after the Iroquois cheif Monacatootha (meaning "great arrow"), along with numerous other place names in Western Pennsylvania named after Iroquois people along with native tribes (such as the Susquehannocks). The town Are the Monongahelas, in your mind, an aboriginal people? If you can call the Sami an aboriginal people (which they are), then how can Native American tribes not be considered the same (given that they inhabited the area for thousands of years)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 20:25
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
 
Well it seems that you think one shall totally disregard indigenous peoples own standpoints and just run them over (figuratively speaking). Indigenous peoples like the Samis, and also the eastern reindeer peoples I mentioned above, have been involved in land struggles with not only Sweden but also Norway and Russia (in its different shapes). For example in parts of Russia they are forced to leave ancestral lands because of the extraction of oil on their territories.
But maybe you just think that the organisations of the Samis and several other indigenous peoples are just indulging themselves in some sort of New Age trip of their own.
 
And who said anything about Stone Age??? 
 
 


And? Ethnic Russians were also forced to move from their ancestral lands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 20:29
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa Emperor Barbarossa wrote:

You tried to make the claim that native Iroquois were not native, never explained why, and then give the Sami, an equally legitimate aboriginal people, native status. The Iroquois were native to New York, my mistake (memory from history I learned five years ago is a bit hazy), and attacked and assimilated the Monongahelas, a native tribe in the area. As for the I never said that the Sami were not aboriginal. As for the rest of your rant, I do not even know what you are talking about or trying to say. I am not abusing any sort of intellect or trying to be a pseudo-intellectual. You take a little mistake and start insulting me about some political issues I was not discussing nor attempting to delve into. I forgot that the Iroquois were technically not aborignial to Pennsylvania, but to New York, and from most of the history of Pennsylvania that I have studied (French and Indian War to today) I have always heard of the Iroquois presence in Western Pennsylvania. The town my dad is from, Monaca, is named after the Iroquois cheif Monacatootha (meaning "great arrow"), along with numerous other place names in Western Pennsylvania named after Iroquois people along with native tribes (such as the Susquehannocks). The town Are the Monongahelas, in your mind, an aboriginal people? If you can call the Sami an aboriginal people (which they are), then how can Native American tribes not be considered the same (given that they inhabited the area for thousands of years)?
 
Thank you for your clarification, as well as recognition that the Iroquois were not indigenous to the Upper Ohio Valley but were "the invaders" of the Algonquin homestead. My response was not meant as an insult, but as a warning with regard to going "happy" over questionable labels. I do not call anyone an "aboriginal people" and even studiously avoid the term "Indian"--unless speaking specifically of the territory governed from New Delhi. It is way past the time for all scholars to abandon the biased nomenclature of the past and the coloring it still carries. Even though I retain the convenient Americanism coined in the 1890s, Amerind, I much prefer dealing with specifics within history: their own names. By the way, the Iroqouis did not inhabit the Upper Ohio Valley for thousands of years but entered the area in historic times almost on a par with the French and English. See the problems one encounters when one persists with such conveniences. In fact, Iroqouis itself is a fiction (it's a language desciptive) since the Haudenosaunee entered into the Upper Ohio Valley as the Mingo, but one particular element in a larger entity. Similarly, they exercised hegemony beyond their actual nucleus in New York through violence over their Algonquin neighbors or absorption of linguistically related groups who had originally held "enemy" status such as the Huron or the Tionontati  between 1580 and 1680. At least they themselves do not enter into the victimization game, call themselves aboriginal inhabitants, or claim some fantastic numbers for their original populations. In fact there is an interesting on-line project on just this subject:
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 20:49
Carch wrote:
 
"One can as an example take some building of hydro electric dams on lands earlier belonging to Samis. Still these same Samis did not get any real compensation for their loss or the gain that the majority society had of the dam. In fact some of those who lived close to the dams never got any electricity themselves."
 
The rules of eminent domain can be a bitch and you need not claim your area was chosen for its "benefit" because you are a "minority". Governments perform such actions quite regularly...here in the US the government still retains titles to lands it seized for a pittance under the pretext of "national defense". Nor do we need to look far at the consequences of dam building... or any other "public" project for that matter. It would be nice if one could color the protest under the banner of ancestral lands, but that only goes so far even if you could dust off some ancient charter. These are contemporary problems which must be addressed in terms of the modern judicial systems now in place. rather than going off on tangents drawn from folklore and travel brochures.
 
Besides, Carch, Sweden is long past due for major penance just for unleashing ABBA upon the world!Evil Smile
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 20:55
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


And? Ethnic Russians were also forced to move from their ancestral lands.
 
Well, noone says that was right either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 21:11
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

  
 By the way, the Iroqouis did not inhabit the Upper Ohio Valley for thousands of years but entered the area in historic times almost on a par with the French and English. See the problems one encounters when one persists with such conveniences. In fact, Iroqouis itself is a fiction (it's a language desciptive) since the Haudenosaunee entered into the Upper Ohio Valley as the Mingo, but one particular element in a larger entity. Similarly, they exercised hegemony beyond their actual nucleus in New York through violence over their Algonquin neighbors or absorption of linguistically related groups who had originally held "enemy" status such as the Huron or the Tionontati  between 1580 and 1680.  
 
At least the Iroqouis were native to North America which not the French and English were.
 
And the name Mingo is mostly used for the conglomerate of different Iroqouis speaking groups, with some surviving descendants of the Susquehannocks at its core, that fought in battles against the English (and the Iroqouis) in the 18th century.
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

  Besides, Carch, Sweden is long past due for major penance just for unleashing ABBA upon the world!Evil Smile 
 
If you seen the ballet "Abbalett" coreographed by Birgit Cullberg then you could actually start to like ABBAs music. Wink
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 15 Jul 2009 at 21:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 21:47
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:



Quote

From the 17th century Samis have been opressed and they were under long periods forbidden to express their own religious beliefs and also sometimes to talk their own language. But later there have been a renaissance for their culture, language and even their old religious beliefs. Today many Sami youth take much pride in their culture and most Sami artists are now singing in their own language often mixing traditional songs with modern music.

Swedes are also aboriginals in Sweden, and they have also been opressed and they had not only their religion forbidden, they have also been forcibly converted - twice.





I agree with this and the Teutonic tribes have been there for centuries so in my opinion that makes them also aboriginal. The Native Americans in North and South America are much better examples of a truly aboriginal people but even they are mixed today in many cases. I keep running into Native Americans who claim to be part Irish- boy those Irish really got around- LOL

I suppose it all depends on how one defines aboriginal. I came across a magazine about Aboriginal cultures at my college. It had an article about one of the tribes, in present day Turkiye, that are descendant of the ghazi who arrived in the 11th c. AD. If aboriginal means original people then what were they doing in this magazine? The Rum or Romans (Byzantines) are much closer to being aboriginal in that region but even the Greeks were invaders who intermixed like the Turks have in more recent history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 21:59
If you seen the ballet "Abbalett" coreographed by Birgit Cullberg then you could actually start to like ABBAs music. Wink
 
Perish that thought! It was excruciating enough taking my grandniece, after constant importuning, to watch Meryl Streep embarrass herself beyond endurance in Mama Mia!. That fiasco could only be call entertainment after the consumption of a lid of weed!
 
As for the comment on the Iroquois then I suppose that you feel that it is alright to be plundered and pillaged as long as the perpetrator has some claim to "aboriginal" status?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2009 at 22:10
Iroquois

Funny, I have Iroquois ancestry but that does not make me aboriginal since it goes so far back in our family line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2009 at 00:34
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:



I agree with this and the Teutonic tribes have been there for centuries so in my opinion that makes them also aboriginal. The Native Americans in North and South America are much better examples of a truly aboriginal people but even they are mixed today in many cases. I keep running into Native Americans who claim to be part Irish- boy those Irish really got around- LOL



Funny about that, since it seems that the Gaels like something about the Native Americans.LOL Many Native American chiefs were half-Scottish, including Osceola, Peter McQueen, John Ross, John Stuart, and the Nez Perce chief Duncan MacDonald. I'm guessing the feelings of disenfranchisement by the government united Scotsmen and Irishmen with Native Americans. Both were fierce warrior cultures as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2009 at 02:48
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa Emperor Barbarossa wrote:

 ...Funny about that, since it seems that the Gaels like something about the Native Americans.LOL Many Native American chiefs were half-Scottish, including Osceola, Peter McQueen, John Ross, John Stuart, and the Nez Perce chief Duncan MacDonald. I'm guessing the feelings of disenfranchisement by the government united Scotsmen and Irishmen with Native Americans. Both were fierce warrior cultures as well.
 
Yes, and many more European Americans of today have Amerindian ancestry, no matter they have no idea.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2009 at 04:30
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

It is interesting to watch many couch contemporary social, political and economic problems in terms of "cultural" integrity and fidelity to "life styles", notwithstanding the marginalization such whimsy entails. Besides the comedy involved--for example some "scholars" go on and on about the barbarity of Catholicism while extolling the simple virtues of shamanism and how such should be respected--the attempts at pathos truly become pathetic.
.
 
Well, the idea of an universal shamanism comes from the New Age. The fact is that what is called shamanism is simply the religions of diverse people. There are not two shamanic practises who are identical.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

What is the difference between the agitation for "homelands" by particular quasi-cultural groups and the "Homeland Policy" of the late and unlamented South African Republic?
.
 
Absolutely. Assimilation is the way to go. However, rather than the mainstream flattening the native minorities, what is required is that the mainstream is tought and learn about the roots of theirs own country! That's absolutely necesary.
For instance, I am in favor that in the Americas and the Pacific, kids should learn a native language. Why not? If it is the ancestral languages of theirs lands, after all.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Better to banish the vocabulary of the infamous 19th century and its remnants that so plagued the 20th in order to properly address our contemporary problems more tied to discrimination and economic inequality than any fetish for antiquated classifications and distinctions. An inescapable fact of the 21st century is its complex urbanization and the needs for effective sustainability in terms of ever growing numbers. We all know the "gods must be crazy" but the craziness of certain "intellectuals" trangresses deific hubris in attempts to grant legitimacy to near anarchic conceptualizations.
 
It is absolutely necesary to educate and put natives into the 21th century. They will need computers, GPS and lawyers to deffend theirs rights, and theirs kids should enter to college like every citizen of the countries they live.
 
If they want to be tourist guides, be it by personal decisions, but shouldn't be enforced to be just living peaces of a human museum Confused
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2009 at 08:29
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

If you seen the ballet "Abbalett" coreographed by Birgit Cullberg then you could actually start to like ABBAs music. Wink
 
Perish that thought! It was excruciating enough taking my grandniece, after constant importuning, to watch Meryl Streep embarrass herself beyond endurance in Mama Mia!. That fiasco could only be call entertainment after the consumption of a lid of weed!
 
Well, Abbalett were of a lot higher quality than that American mishmash.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

As for the comment on the Iroquois then I suppose that you feel that it is alright to be plundered and pillaged as long as the perpetrator has some claim to "aboriginal" status?
 
I don not recall that I have discussed about the pillaging and plundering done by the Irouois. But of course those who were plundered did not appreciate it, whoever did it.


Edited by Carcharodon - 16 Jul 2009 at 08:40
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