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Alexander: Macedonian or Greek?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2014 at 16:31
Originally posted by ALLAN ALLAN wrote:


Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


So, all things being equal, one could almost insist that, ethnically, Malcolm was Irish. ;)

I should cut your losses mate and go all the way back to our northern Spanish home lands. LOL


Not me Bud. I'll be going back to my ancestral Celtic Homeland in the European Steppe.
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It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ALLAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2014 at 12:09
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


So, all things being equal, one could almost insist that, ethnically, Malcolm was Irish. ;)
I should cut your losses mate and go all the way back to our northern Spanish home lands. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2014 at 11:26
beorna

Just to rain on your parade, Malcolm I of Scotland was a descendant of Aed.

According to later genealogies, Áed was the great-grandfather of Kenneth MacAlpin (Cináed mac Ailpín) who is traditionally counted as the first king of Scots. This descent ran through Áed's son Eochaid mac Áeda Find and Eochaid's son Alpín mac Echdach. The evidence for the existence of Eochaid and Alpín is late and uncompelling, and shows signs of fabrication in the High Middle Ages. (Wiki)

So, all things being equal, one could almost insist that, ethnically, Malcolm was Irish. ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2014 at 22:05
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:


So it's based on probabilities and assumptions - if Malcom indeed recognized himself as a Brit, my example would pass as a parallel example. 
You say his son might pass as an example - if he was feeling British....
We cannot know in either case. We haven't talked to any of them.

Where we have no information, yes, there it is based on probabilities and assumptions. But usually ancient people are classified by self-designation or by exonyms. So germanics were classified by an exonym, allthough they had no common identity. But it seems, that they later called themselves germanics by self-designation. Alexander was a Greek, because he saw himself as a Greek and was accepted by others as greek.

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

No - they are not Danish, albeit they are known as the danish minority in Southern Schleswig. They have a German passport which they must produce (if asked) crossing the border to Denmark, they are not registered as Danish citizens - they don't count to the total of inhabitants of Denmark...  but I can appreciate they still have a love for their ancestors country in their hearts.
Maybe they have tears in their eyes thinking of lost times and the old country, but that doesn't make them Danish.

Is that your opinion or common opinion in Danmark? The danske sydslesvigere are seen in germany as ethnic danes, but german citizens or maybe as germans of a danish mother tongue. AFAIK do they see themselves as a Danish minority in germany and german citizens.
So it is a great example, cos we three, you, me and the sydslesvigere see themselves maybe different.

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

My cousin Peter who ran off as a big boy settled in AU and made a life for himself in Adelaide. He is Australian - not Danish. But he has Danish ancestry.
Don't get me wrong - I know what you mean... but fuzzy feelings and love for past times doesn't change your nationality. The result would be really messy. 

I can't say what he thing he is, but me would consider him a danish immigrant and australian citizen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2014 at 12:52
Is it time for this thread to be wound up?

We seem to be making no progress at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2014 at 07:52
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

All right - that must be for another thread...

But can I conclude that in the least, they all are things not related to the claim of Alexander being Greek?


Why not, didn't ethnic groups not exist in the ancient times? If different greeks poleis could feel as one common ethnos, why not makedonia? The Hellen koine was not limited to Greece. Hellenes from Italy, from Asia took place in the olympic games, they all considered themselves as Hellenes.

Of course ethnic groups have existed through all times - but is that why there is a claim - ethnicity?

or is this example better than my previous ...

Alexander the Great was a Greek and a Macedon
 - in the same sense - 
as Malcolm the First was a Brit and a Scottish King?

If this is wrong too, I'm probably too daft to understand it anyways... 



Damned! :D Yes, it seems it is wrong, because Malcolm MacDomnaill probably didn't saw himself as Brit. 
............. If it is the 2nd, then maybe it could be right. But AFAIK was there no common British (celtic) identity.
So it's based on probabilities and assumptions - if Malcom indeed recognized himself as a Brit, my example would pass as a parallel example. 
You say his son might pass as an example - if he was feeling British....
We cannot know in either case. We haven't talked to any of them. 
Quote
Cos you're from Danmark, an example of modern times. We have a Danish minority in Germany, the danske sydslesvigere. Are they no danes, cos they live in another state? Or the Frisians. Which ethnic do they have? They live in Germany and the Netherlands and have no own state. Are they Frisians or Germans or Dutch?
No - they are not Danish, albeit they are known as the danish minority in Southern Schleswig. They have a German passport which they must produce (if asked) crossing the border to Denmark, they are not registered as Danish citizens - they don't count to the total of inhabitants of Denmark...  but I can appreciate they still have a love for their ancestors country in their hearts.
Maybe they have tears in their eyes thinking of lost times and the old country, but that doesn't make them Danish. 
My cousin Peter who ran off as a big boy settled in AU and made a life for himself in Adelaide. He is Australian - not Danish. But he has Danish ancestry.
Don't get me wrong - I know what you mean... but fuzzy feelings and love for past times doesn't change your nationality. The result would be really messy. 

~ North

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2014 at 05:07
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Participation in the Olympic Games is irrelevant.

Whether or not Alex and his team were permitted to participate in the Olympic games proves nothing. It could have been a purely political decision.

That they spoke the same language can also be explained by Alexander being well educated as the son of a King. Also one could expect a certain amount of cross border multilingualism.

But, I agree with Northman, ethnicity or nationality, which is it?

That's the Pella curse tablet. I don't want to make it too complicated. There are different theses possible. But it is considered by the most scientists as evidence for a Greek language in Makedonia, not only for a small elite.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2014 at 05:03
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

All right - that must be for another thread...

But can I conclude that in the least, they all are things not related to the claim of Alexander being Greek?


Why not, didn't ethnic groups not exist in the ancient times? If different greeks poleis could feel as one common ethnos, why not makedonia? The Hellen koine was not limited to Greece. Hellenes from Italy, from Asia took place in the olympic games, they all considered themselves as Hellenes.

Of course ethnic groups have existed through all times - but is that why there is a claim - ethnicity?

or is this example better than my previous ...

Alexander the Great was a Greek and a Macedon
 - in the same sense - 
as Malcolm the First was a Brit and a Scottish King?

If this is wrong too, I'm probably too daft to understand it anyways... 



Damned! :D Yes, it seems it is wrong, because Malcolm MacDomnaill probably didn't saw himself as Brit. Now is another problem, what is a Brit? Is this someone, who lives an the British islands or is a Brit a celtic speaking person, in opposite to Eadmund and his Englishmen? If it is the 2nd, then maybe it could be right. But AFAIK was there no common British (celtic) identity.
Cos you're from Danmark, an example of modern times. We have a Danish minority in Germany, the danske sydslesvigere. Are they no danes, cos they live in another state? Or the Frisians. Which ethnic do they have? They live in Germany and the Netherlands and have no own state. Are they Frisians or Germans or Dutch?
The makedonians were a greek speaking people (even if not in the beginnig or not all in the beginning) and Alexander from a dynasty, who were considered as Hellenes, at least in Alexander's era.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eetion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2014 at 02:51
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Participation in the Olympic Games is irrelevant.

Whether or not Alex and his team were permitted to participate in the Olympic games proves nothing. It could have been a purely political decision.


It is not totally irrelevent, if we think that there is rule about participant ethnicity. However I agree you, it can also be political. Small Greek city states can't ignore the king just something like this silly rule. 

We saw it in the history

Example: Patriarch of Constantinople. He should be Turkish citizen but during the cold war an American-Greek guy became a Turkish citizen in one day and be a patriarch. 

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


That they spoke the same language can also be explained by Alexander being well educated as the son of a King. Also one could expect a certain amount of cross border multilingualism.


I agree, but these are just refutations of Greek root theory. Do we have a real information about his Macedon root?

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


But, I agree with Northman, ethnicity or nationality, which is it?


Well this is a romantic nationalist problem between todays Macedonians and Greeks. Like every nations, they want to hear that all good things come from them and bad things belong others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 23:48
Participation in the Olympic Games is irrelevant.

Whether or not Alex and his team were permitted to participate in the Olympic games proves nothing. It could have been a purely political decision.

That they spoke the same language can also be explained by Alexander being well educated as the son of a King. Also one could expect a certain amount of cross border multilingualism.

But, I agree with Northman, ethnicity or nationality, which is it?


Edited by toyomotor - 23 Feb 2014 at 23:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 23:24
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

All right - that must be for another thread...

But can I conclude that in the least, they all are things not related to the claim of Alexander being Greek?


Why not, didn't ethnic groups not exist in the ancient times? If different greeks poleis could feel as one common ethnos, why not makedonia? The Hellen koine was not limited to Greece. Hellenes from Italy, from Asia took place in the olympic games, they all considered themselves as Hellenes.

Of course ethnic groups have existed through all times - but is that why there is a claim - ethnicity?

or is this example better than my previous ...

Alexander the Great was a Greek and a Macedon
 - in the same sense - 
as Malcolm the First was a Brit and a Scottish King?

If this is wrong too, I'm probably too daft to understand it anyways... 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eetion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 23:14
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:


The map shows what is claimed, Ancient Greece, and surrounding countries.


No, it is not for me. If I need to show one country and surrounding countries, I will put it in middle then I put countries which are located in its west and east. However we just see the east of ancient greece. 

Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:


Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:


Well this is a clear sign for Greek theory. As legeand says his origin was coming from Argead dynasty. and Argead means "from Argos". Argos was a city like pre-Athens and if we go far, Alexander is a Dorian

but this origion theories don't always true.  People in Europe thought that Turks are mongolid, but we know that it is not true today



That is irrelevant. That the Hellenes accepted the myth is the only important thing.



You havn't understood my post. Why the Greek people accept Alexander in Olympics, just because of his root. That's why Alexander root is relevant and I mean this Olympic tale is clear sign for Greek theory. It supports that he is Greek. Dorians are a Hellenic tribe

Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:


Alone it would be not enough, maybe. But it is not standing alone.


That's why I didn't say that it is irrelevant

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not supporting any idea in this moment. I am just saying that I can't see any objection which can put the final point.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 22:07
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

All right - that must be for another thread...

But can I conclude that in the least, they all are things not related to the claim of Alexander being Greek?


Why not, didn't ethnic groups not exist in the ancient times? If different greeks poleis could feel as one common ethnos, why not makedonia? The Hellen koine was not limited to Greece. Hellenes from Italy, from Asia took place in the olympic games, they all considered themselves as Hellenes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 21:09
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Very good - in that light, please allow me to repeat my question...

The claim for Alexander to be Greek, is based on a conception of common identity between peoples of an independent kingdom (Macedonia) and the peoples of a group of city-states (Hellenes) and has nothing to do with common ethnicity, nations, tribes or other relations in that respect - did I get it right?


Let me answer your question with counterquestion, "what is an ethnicity, a nation or a tribe"?
All right - that must be for another thread...

But can I conclude that in the least, they all are things not related to the claim of Alexander being Greek?





Edited by Northman - 23 Feb 2014 at 21:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 20:41
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Very good - in that light, please allow me to repeat my question...

The claim for Alexander to be Greek, is based on a conception of common identity between peoples of an independent kingdom (Macedonia) and the peoples of a group of city-states (Hellenes) and has nothing to do with common ethnicity, nations, tribes or other relations in that respect - did I get it right?



Let me answer your question with counterquestion, "what is an ethnicity, a nation or a tribe"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 20:35
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

 
My question was not related to the FYROM, or in any way based on modern concepts.

I did understand this.
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I am strictly asking in relation to the situation back then - Alexanders time. 

Yes, me too.

Very good - in that light, please allow me to repeat my question...

The claim for Alexander to be Greek, is based on a conception of common identity between peoples of an independent kingdom (Macedonia) and the peoples of a group of city-states (Hellenes) and has nothing to do with common ethnicity, nations, tribes or other relations in that respect - did I get it right?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 20:23
Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:

The first of all if we search a little bit, we can see many sources like this


As you see that the term of Ancient Greece is using for all Aegean Civilizations such as cultures in Thrace, Caria, Mysia

Were the Lydian kings Greek ? According to this map not just Attica and Pelopennesus are in Ancient Greece, all Aegean coast is Ancient Greece 

Does the map claim that e.g Mysia is Greek? The map shows what is claimed, Ancient Greece, and surrounding countries.

Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

1.Only Greeks (Hellens) could participate in Olympic Games.



Well this is a clear sign for Greek theory. As legeand says his origin was coming from Argead dynasty. and Argead means "from Argos". Argos was a city like pre-Athens and if we go far, Alexander is a Dorian

but this origion theories don't always true.  People in Europe thought that Turks are mongolid, but we know that it is not true today


That is irrelevant. That the Hellenes accepted the myth is the only important thing.

Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

2.At the time of extreme external danger, ancient Greeks m formed coalition to fight the external invader.



Extreme danger makes that impossible friendships come true.

BTW
I can't see any Makedonian hero in Trojan War

And when was these war? Did makedonians exist in those days?

Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

3. Language (at least from 5th century BC) was common with the rest of Hellada.


We are making same arguments for early Turkic nobles and scientist. Most of them were using Persian Language. That makes difficult to agree on thier origin. Were they Turkic or Persian?

That's an interesting argument. But it fails, because it just takes the elites and the diplomatical language into account.

Originally posted by Eetion Eetion wrote:

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

4.Religion was the same as for rest of Greece

5.Mythology was the same

6. Culture was the same with same regional differences



Not enough


Religious center of Lycia in city Patara, Apollon temple

Hittitian chef god is Teshup who is responsible for rain, who can send thunder, whose sembolic beast was bull. Are you familiar with this guy?

King Manes (Lydian King) is son of Zeus and Gaia according to myths.


Alone it would be not enough, maybe. But it is not standing alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 20:09
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:



My question was not related to the FYROM, or in any way based on modern concepts.

I did understand this.

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I am strictly asking in relation to the situation back then - Alexanders time. 

Yes, me too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 20:07
Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

1.Only Greeks (Hellens) could participate in Olympic Games.

Below is short list of known Macedonian participant in the games.

  • King Alexander I, in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BCE. He run the “Stadion” and was placed very close second.
  • King Arhelaos Perdikas, competed in the 93rd Olympics, in 408 BCE and won at Delphi the race of the four-horse chariot.
  • King Philip II was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BCE, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BCE, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BCE, he was the winner of the two colt chariot.
  • Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd  Olympics, in 328 BCE.
  • Damasias from Amphipolis won in the Stadion in the 115th Olympics, in 320 BCE.
  • Lampos from Philippi, was proclaimed a winner in the four-horse chariot race in the 119th Olympics, in 304 BCE.
  • Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BCE and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BCE.
  • Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BCE.
  • During the 128th Olympics, in 268 BCE and in the 129th Olympics, in 264 BCE, a woman from Macedonia won the competition. Pausanias mentions that: “…it is said that the race of the two-colt chariot was won by a woman, named Velestihi from the seashores of Macedonia”.


Herodot V 22 and IX 45 and Thukydides II 99,3 report the arrival of Alexander I at Olympa and how his demand to participate in the games was refuted. Alexander then refered to his Argead descendence. After that, he and the Argeads were accepted. Alexander's reign started around 495 and he ruled till ca. 450. The dates are not reported with certainty. So Alexander started probably much earlier than 460, maybe around 500.

In general I agree with you, that the Argeads participated in the Olympic games shows, that the Hellenes accepted the Argeads as hellenes, too.

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

2.At the time of extreme external danger, ancient Greeks m formed coalition to fight the external invader.

a) During the first Persian invasion culminating at Battle of Marathon, The archenemy of Athens, Sparta  send their army to help Athenans (albeit they arrived to late to take part in the battle).

 

b) During second Persian invasion culminating in Battle of Salamis and Plataea, all southern part of Greece united and fought side by side against invaders.

That is not necessarily evidence for a Greekness. Several Greek poleis stayed neutral, the makedonians even were subjected to the Persians. Of corse it is as well no evidence, that Makedonians were not Greeks.

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

3. Language (at least from 5th century BC) was common with the rest of Hellada.

It seems indeed, that the Makedonian language was an archaic greek, like those in the NW. Later even Ionian Greek was used.

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

4.Religion was the same as for rest of Greece

AFAWK, yes. Good point.

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

5.Mythology was the same

AFAWK, yes. Good point.

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

6. Culture was the same with same regional differences

AFAWK, yes. Good point.

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

7. Political system was different due to mostly agrarian society of Macedonia, but Kingdoms were not unusual for Greece. (Tyrants and Kings were proceeding democracy in most of Greek Cities-states.)



yes, correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 19:54
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

....
Please let me rephrase my question ...
The claim for Alexander to be Greek, is based on a conception of common identity between peoples of an independent kingdom (Macedonia) and the peoples of a group of city-states (Hellenes) and has nothing to do with common ethnicity, nations, tribes or other relations in that respect - did I get it right?
...

The discussion between Greeks and people from FYROM is often based on modern concepts. The discussion whether Alexander and Makedonians are greek or not is not based on modern concepts, it was already a contemporary discussion.

My question was not related to the FYROM, or in any way based on modern concepts.
I am strictly asking in relation to the situation back then - Alexanders time. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 19:37
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

....
Please let me rephrase my question ...
The claim for Alexander to be Greek, is based on a conception of common identity between peoples of an independent kingdom (Macedonia) and the peoples of a group of city-states (Hellenes) and has nothing to do with common ethnicity, nations, tribes or other relations in that respect - did I get it right?
...

The discussion between Greeks and people from FYROM is often based on modern concepts. The discussion whether Alexander and Makedonians are greek or not is not based on modern concepts, it was already a contemporary discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 19:17
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Northman

No, you're not a curious bystander, just standing by, you're a bit like me, finding it difficult to compartmentalise beornas contradictory statements.

What please is contadictory?

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

He says that Alexander can't have been Greek, because at the time there was no single Greek state. So he must have been Macedonian, musn't he.

Where did I say Alexander can't have been a Greek, please? And even more, where did I say that he can't be a greek, because there was no single greek state?

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

All of the rest of his post is beorna arguing against what he's already written to try and extricate himself from the mire he created.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eetion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 18:32
The first of all if we search a little bit, we can see many sources like this
http://www.greeka.com/pictures/maps/ancient-greece-map.jpg

As you see that the term of Ancient Greece is using for all Aegean Civilizations such as cultures in Thrace, Caria, Mysia

Were the Lydian kings Greek ? According to this map not just Attica and Pelopennesus are in Ancient Greece, all Aegean coast is Ancient Greece 

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

1.Only Greeks (Hellens) could participate in Olympic Games.



Well this is a clear sign for Greek theory. As legeand says his origin was coming from Argead dynasty. and Argead means "from Argos". Argos was a city like pre-Athens and if we go far, Alexander is a Dorian

 

but this origion theories don't always true.  People in Europe thought that Turks are mongolid, but we know that it is not true today

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

2.At the time of extreme external danger, ancient Greeks m formed coalition to fight the external invader.



Extreme danger makes that impossible friendships come true.

BTW
I can't see any Makedonian hero in Trojan War
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/ashp/NEWhp252/portnov/crazymap.gif


Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

3. Language (at least from 5th century BC) was common with the rest of Hellada.



We are making same arguments for early Turkic nobles and scientist. Most of them were using Persian Language. That makes difficult to agree on thier origin. Were they Turkic or Persian?

Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

4.Religion was the same as for rest of Greece

5.Mythology was the same

6. Culture was the same with same regional differences



Not enough


Religious center of Lycia in city Patara, Apollon temple

Hittitian chef god is Teshup who is responsible for rain, who can send thunder, whose sembolic beast was bull. Are you familiar with this guy?

King Manes (Lydian King) is son of Zeus and Gaia according to myths.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 16:37

1.Only Greeks (Hellens) could participate in Olympic Games.

Below is short list of known Macedonian participant in the games.

  • King Alexander I, in the 80th Olympics, in 460 BCE. He run the “Stadion” and was placed very close second.
  • King Arhelaos Perdikas, competed in the 93rd Olympics, in 408 BCE and won at Delphi the race of the four-horse chariot.
  • King Philip II was an Olympic champion three times. In the 106th Olympics, in 356 BCE, he won the race, riding his horse. In the 107th Olympics, in 352 BCE, he won the four-horse chariot race. In the 108th Olympics, in 348 BCE, he was the winner of the two colt chariot.
  • Cliton run the Stadion in the 113rd  Olympics, in 328 BCE.
  • Damasias from Amphipolis won in the Stadion in the 115th Olympics, in 320 BCE.
  • Lampos from Philippi, was proclaimed a winner in the four-horse chariot race in the 119th Olympics, in 304 BCE.
  • Antigonos won in the Stadion race, in the 122nd Olympics, in 292 BCE and in the 123rd Olympics in 288 BCE.
  • Seleucos won in the field-sports competition in the 128th Olympics in 268 BCE.
  • During the 128th Olympics, in 268 BCE and in the 129th Olympics, in 264 BCE, a woman from Macedonia won the competition. Pausanias mentions that: “…it is said that the race of the two-colt chariot was won by a woman, named Velestihi from the seashores of Macedonia”.

2.At the time of extreme external danger, ancient Greeks m formed coalition to fight the external invader.

a) During the first Persian invasion culminating at Battle of Marathon, The archenemy of Athens, Sparta  send their army to help Athenans (albeit they arrived to late to take part in the battle).

 

b) During second Persian invasion culminating in Battle of Salamis and Plataea, all southern part of Greece united and fought side by side against invaders.

 

3. Language (at least from 5th century BC) was common with the rest of Hellada.

4.Religion was the same as for rest of Greece

5.Mythology was the same

6. Culture was the same with same regional differences

7. Political system was different due to mostly agrarian society of Macedonia, but Kingdoms were not unusual for Greece. (Tyrants and Kings were proceeding democracy in most of Greek Cities-states.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 13:02
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


I always understood that he identified as a Macedonian being heavily influenced by Hellenistic culture? So  i am guessing he was a Macedon schooled in Greek culture.



As the son of a King, it could be expected that he was educated in the customs of neighbouring countries.


Good point. Plus, Alexander's father chose very wisely for a western teacher, picking the great Aristotle as a tutor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 12:08
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


I always understood that he identified as a Macedonian being heavily influenced by Hellenistic culture? So  i am guessing he was a Macedon schooled in Greek culture.



As the son of a King, it could be expected that he was educated in the customs of neighbouring countries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 12:04
I always understood that he identified as a Macedonian being heavily influenced by Hellenistic culture? So  i am guessing he was a Macedon schooled in Greek culture.


Edited by Panther - 23 Feb 2014 at 12:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 11:46
Northman

No, you're not a curious bystander, just standing by, you're a bit like me, finding it difficult to compartmentalise beornas contradictory statements.

He says that Alexander can't have been Greek, because at the time there was no single Greek state. So he must have been Macedonian, musn't he.

All of the rest of his post is beorna arguing against what he's already written to try and extricate himself from the mire he created.

Edited by toyomotor - 23 Feb 2014 at 12:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 06:08
Originally posted by Beorna Beorna wrote:

About what two independent kingdoms are you speaking? Greece was not a kingdom, if the map posted by goral may make you think so.  There was not a greece and a Makedonia, but a lot of states. 

Sorry for not being precise..... and for being a pest.
But this question has been discussed over and over again, so I would like to narrow the answer down as far as possible...

Please let me rephrase my question ...
The claim for Alexander to be Greek, is based on a conception of common identity between peoples of an independent kingdom (Macedonia) and the peoples of a group of city-states (Hellenes) and has nothing to do with common ethnicity, nations, tribes or other relations in that respect - did I get it right?

Please bear in mind - I'm no part of this issue - just a curious bystander Smile

Thanks
North


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2014 at 05:48
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Thanks.

I'll take your word for the common Greek (Hellenes) identity because no matter what other sources I find, they all specifically differ between Greeks and Macedon's -  of course only until 1830.
Even in the map Goral posted above to prove the opposite.
So to put it simple for me to understand ..
The claim for Alexander to be Greek, is based on a conception of common identity between peoples of two independent kingdoms and has nothing to do with common ethnicity, nationality or other relations in that respect - did I get it right?

I'll post some contemporary sources next week. About what two independent kingdoms are you speaking? Greece was not a kingdom, if the map posted by goral may make you think so. The map is from a FYROM site. There was not a greece and a Makedonia, but a lot of states.
That's greece during the Peloponnesian war
File:Karte Peloponnesischer Krieg 431 vC-de.svg
ca. 370/60
File:Griechenland 371-362.jpg
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