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Alexander: Macedonian or Greek?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2014 at 05:51

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an4ymiYPfn0



Edited by Goral - 26 Feb 2014 at 07:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2014 at 06:02
Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:


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<h1><span ="watch-titleyt-uix-expander-"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Quotes
about the Greekness of Ancient Macedonians </span></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"></span></h1>

<p ="Msonormal">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an4ymiYPfn0



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Precisely who is this Jakob, "The Jewish Fighter"?

Does he have any scientific qualification at all.

Anyone can make a You Tube clip supporting any idea whatever.

I totally disregard the You Tube clip.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2014 at 06:05
Originally posted by ALLAN ALLAN wrote:


Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by ALLAN ALLAN wrote:


Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


So, all things being equal, one could almost insist that, ethnically, Malcolm was Irish. ;)

I should cut your losses mate and go all the way back to our northern Spanish home lands. LOL


Not me Bud. I'll be going back to my ancestral Celtic Homeland in the European Steppe.
Then not of the British or Irish "Celts" (Not actual Celts at all)


I think you'll find a divergence of views on the origins of the Celts-I favour the Steppes origin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ALLAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2014 at 08:21
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by ALLAN ALLAN wrote:


Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by ALLAN ALLAN wrote:


Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


So, all things being equal, one could almost insist that, ethnically, Malcolm was Irish. ;)

I should cut your losses mate and go all the way back to our northern Spanish home lands. LOL


Not me Bud. I'll be going back to my ancestral Celtic Homeland in the European Steppe.
Then not of the British or Irish "Celts" (Not actual Celts at all)


I think you'll find a divergence of views on the origins of the Celts-I favour the Steppes origin.
I'm sure you're right. Also sure the DNA evidence in that link is right too. It shouldn't matter too much on this thread. Enough time going off subject. Sorry everyone. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2014 at 11:31
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Just when I thought you knew what you were talking about, you question the fact that in the fifth century CE, Irish settled in Scotland. St. Columba brought Christianity to Alba and paved the way for other Irish to follow.

Well, I wrote whether the story is correct or not is not proven. Maybe you read some recent works, e.g. Campbell, Ewan. "Where the Scots Irish" in Antiquity No. 75 (2001). pp. 285–292. It should be noted that Campbell's is an archeologically-based theory. Historians are divided on the question.
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/scotsirish.htm

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

And I think Malcolm would have considered himself the King of Scots who had an Irish heritage.

You think, but that is not relevant. Relevant is what we know or what we can prove. AFAIk is it uncertain about malcolm, but we know it about Alexander.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Google:-
"Iona"

"St. Columba"

Or simply forget it altogether.

Thank you for your kindness

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

And Malcolm certainly was NOT Greek OR Macedonian, nor were his brothers, nor were his sons.

Really?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2014 at 11:55
Originally posted by Goral Goral wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an4ymiYPfn0


Not that I completely disagree with the statements, but I still insist, that there is a difference between Greekness and Hellenic. While I meanwhile accept a greekness of makedonians, they were late, by some never accepted as Hellenes. All the name material, the pantheon etc we have, show them as Greeks and after Alexander the Makedonian Empire was responsible for the Hellenisation of the east.

I have to agree with toyomotor, these clip is probably made for a dispute between greeks and FYROMs. So the objectivity has to be questioned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2014 at 21:38
beorna:

I haven't read any serious information which suggests that the Irish didn't start settling in Alba ~500AD. Quite the contrary, there are many archaeological sites which show building similarities between Scotland and Ireland of the period, along with the language factor; family names; religion and so on.

There will always be someone who wants to attract attention to themselves by going against the proven history, try the Fomenkos as an example.

As for the YouTube clip, it's made by a Jewish man, about whom I can't find any information. So until I can establish his credentials, I'm ignoring the clip.

Edited by toyomotor - 26 Feb 2014 at 21:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote luiji79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2014 at 00:50
The answer to this question i believe most of us know it .Haven't u heard the excavations that archaelosits do these days in Amphipolis Greece.I am telling u know the latest news.They have found a skeleton with height   1,65 and the Greek Ministry have sent the skeleton for DNA analysis.The answer in few days .If anybody wants to get informed http://www.thetombofamphipolis.com it is the best site with numerous photos following the excavations
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2014 at 07:53
Originally posted by luiji79 luiji79 wrote:

The answer to this question i believe most of us know it .Haven't u heard the excavations that archaelosits do these days in Amphipolis Greece.I am telling u know the latest news.They have found a skeleton with height   1,65 and the Greek Ministry have sent the skeleton for DNA analysis.The answer in few days .If anybody wants to get informed http://www.thetombofamphipolis.com it is the best site with numerous photos following the excavations


Yes, I'm aware of the excavation at Amphipolis.

There is no proof that the skeleton is that of Alexander or of his father Philip II.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2014 at 08:03
The people who built the tomb must be pretty primitive if they allowed more marble to be used in its construction than for any other public monument available at the time.  From the looks of it the tomb doesn't appear to be that large of a monument.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2014 at 00:42
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

The people who built the tomb must be pretty primitive if they allowed more marble to be used in its construction than for any other public monument available at the time.  From the looks of it the tomb doesn't appear to be that large of a monument.



I agree. From the photographs available, it doesn't look like the tomb of a king or a man who conquered most of the known world.

Tests are being carried out on the skeleton, so we should have some indication soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thorvald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2014 at 12:21
You know, these discussions will never give a solution, because neither Greeks nor Macedonians will give up their claim. 

http://germanicrealm.informe.com/forum/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2014 at 02:23
Originally posted by Thorvald Thorvald wrote:

You know, these discussions will never give a solution, because neither Greeks nor Macedonians will give up their claim. 


You're probably right, but, as Macedonia existed in Alexanders time, I suggest that he was Macedonian. The fact that Macedonia was at other times part of Greece is not really the point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote luiji79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2014 at 14:18
Macedonians are Greek .Macadonia is a part of Greece as we say Attica for Athens.Greece is seperated in states of land such as Thraki ,Macedonia,Attica e.t.c.   PRESS HERE--->http://www.thetombofamphipolis.com/the-dead   to see information about the DEAD of the tomb of Amphipolis.DNA TEST
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Alburz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2014 at 17:06
My personal opinion is that Alexander was a Macedonian educated in Greek culture. Macedonia became part of Hellenic world later on by Hellenization of Macedonia. As many people talked about the origin of Alexander and Macedonians in general there are several possibilities. 

1. Macedonians were not Greeks at the beginning, but the Hellenization of Macedonia started around Alexander and Philip time, so they became Greeks afterward by absorbing Greek culture and identity.

2. Macedonians were fringe Hellenic tribes who mixed with Illyrians and lived far from Greeks in mountains, and became estrange to their mainland brothers, so some Greeks considered them non-Hellenic.

3. The ruling family was from Hellenic tribes ruling over majority Illyrian or mix Illyrian/Hellenic population. They started Hellenization of Macedonia around Alexander times (perhaps some generation before Alexander) and Macedonia became part of Greece afterward.

I consider Alexander a Macedonian ether from Illyrian or Mixed Illyrian/fringe Hellenic background who was educated in Greek culture by Greek teachers who became a benefactor of Hellenic culture. I know his mother was from Epirus.  There were many attempts to claim Alexander as full Hellenic to glorify Greece by this successful general/ruler/conqueror. He might have been eager to be called Greek as well, since all people who come to this level of glory and fame used to claim being from some super duper background to legitimize their claim to the throne and say they were special because of their ancestors had been great as well (some sort of glorification to show they were fit to rule and build charismatic aura for the ruler for public consumption). Macedonia being a nowhere in mountain and having relatively barbaric culture compared to Greeks, had nothing to offer, so they (either Macedonian ruling family or court historians) claimed origins from mainland Greece (area around Athene and Sparta) to glorify themselves and claim a legendary link to some Hellenic hero. 

As you can read in many articles, Alexander's mother claimed she was impregnated by Zeus not Philip. And as you may know Philip was not eager to consider Alexander as his successor so he married again to have a full-blooded legitimate Macedonian crown prince, but he did not make it to see his second son becoming crown prince. There are suggestions that Alexander or his mother plotted against Philip before they were being cast out of Macedonia, so they assassinated Phillip to take the power and blamed it on Persians to rally Macedonians and Greeks around a new cause. Alexander's mother was a shrewd and influential person. Observing the situation in Greece/Macedonia and crumbling Persian empire, she plotted against her husband to save his son and herself from disaster and guided his son to a possible bigger fame and glory in Persian empire. Alexander who inherited his father's organized and formidable army, and was battle harden in Greece and Scythian campaigns, used his mother advice to rally Greeks and Macedonians together. Greeks resented Macedonians who conquered them but the promise of taking revenge from Persians and gaining Persian gold rallied the Greeks and promise of taking revenge for Philip death (blaming on Persians) and further glory for Macedonia rallied Macedonians. Using this, Alexander choose the right time to attack Persian empire which was crumbling from civil wars and strife of contenders to the throne. Alexander was a lucky but formidable general who gained power while his forces were united, motivated and strongest ever but his enemies, Persians, were in decline. Right person in right time with right tools.


Edited by Alburz - 24 Nov 2014 at 17:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote luiji79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2014 at 21:02
NEW PHOTOS OF THE SKELETON OF THE TOMB OF AMPHIPOLIS IN MACEDONIA-GREECE
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2014 at 13:30
Originally posted by luiji79 luiji79 wrote:

NEW PHOTOS OF THE SKELETON OF THE TOMB OF AMPHIPOLIS IN MACEDONIA-GREECE


Not really relevant to the OP, there's no proof that the tomb is that of Phillip II or of his son Alexander.

And if it was proved that it was Alexanders tomb, it still doesn't change the fact that he was Macedonian.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2014 at 16:07
With genetic research into the remains they can get a fairly good idea what admixtures he had.  With that in mind they could get a sense of how close to the population substructures of the Greeks or the Macedonians he was.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alburz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2014 at 16:23
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

With genetic research into the remains they can get a fairly good idea what admixtures he had.  With that in mind they could get a sense of how close to the population substructures of the Greeks or the Macedonians he was.
Today Greeks are a mixture of Slavs/Turks/Abanians and their ancestors ancient Greeks, so it does not prove anything. The dna of ancient Greeks should be taken into account to examine the closeness of Alexander to ancient Greeks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2014 at 01:41
His father was Philip II of Macedonia. He called himself Macedonian.

He lived (initially) in Macedonia, what more do you want, a Birth Certificate?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2014 at 03:10
Alburz, true.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2014 at 05:10
Quote The discovery of the Tomb of Alexander the Great, cannot be considered a chance event but it was the result of many years of study and research into a remote area, where no one had previously searched for his tomb.

It took around twenty years of study to find the magic key that would resolve the great mystery of the location of the site of the tomb; this was the wish of Alexander to be buried at the Oasis of Ammon. This wish and desire had been reported in the texts of the historians of the time of Alexander, such as Callisthenes, Aristobulus, Ptolemy and later writers such as Diodorus and Plutarch.

How would it have been possible for anyone not to carry out an order from the King or not to accomplish the wish of ‘the god’ Alexander?

Valuable information was also obtained from the ascetics of the desert, who reported the existence of the tomb at the oasis and the worship of Alexander as a god, together with Ammon, like Abu Sisoes in the 4th century AD. Dorotheus, the Bishop of Tyre in the 5th century AD, and Procopius, a historian of the 6th century AD, also mention this information.



This seems to be the true location of Alexanders tomb.- See more at: http://www.ancient-origins.net/history/despairing-cry-tomb-alexander-great-desert-siwa-oasis-002464#sthash.g7lDWubo.dpuf
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2014 at 09:51
Speaking of Alexander, and we were, weren't we? The ruins at Amphipolis now seem to be more likely his mothers tomb.
See Ancient-Origins
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2015 at 17:25
I leave it to the ancient Greeks.

Macedonians participated in the Olympics, and at that time only Greeks participated in the Olympics. I suppose we could argue all day what we think, but those there at the time seemed to have an answer.

I think part of the problem is "who are all the Macedonians"? Alexander would have told you he traced his family back to Arcadia, Argos in southern Greece specifically. It is very likely the royalty and the leaders were Greeks from that perspective for sure. Beyond that, I will fall back to my original statement because the issue, like so much these days, gets political and people tend to want to present what they want the truth to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaymeeeezworlds Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2015 at 17:54
that may seem like pretty confusing lol i was confused at one point to hopefully this clears it up for u http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/AlexandertheGreat.html  Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2015 at 17:15
Macedonians are "Greeks" (Hellenes), they are the tail end of the Dorian invasion.  Politically, they are a throwback to an earlier form of government, kingship, where the head king is the first of all equals (the nobles), or "primus inter pares" such as is found in the Iliad with Agememnon and the rest of the Achaians.

Being throwbacks, the Macedonians were looked upon by the Hellenes as country-bumpkins.  But, it is not because the Macedonians innovated that they were different, rather the rest of the Hellenes had innovated and assumed that the Macedonians were the odd ones.  To make up for this, Macedonians sponsored performers such as Gorgias and Euripides.  In a way, this is like the Sicilian (Greek) tyrants sponsoring Aeschylus and Simonides.  Also, the Olympic games can be thought of in this context, as bestowing legitimacy on the Macedonians.  I seem to remember that there was a genealogy that placed Alexander III (or was it Phillip?) as a descendant of Achilles and Heracles.  Of course, all this would probably have struck a sophisticated ancient Hellene as it does us, but still the Macedonians could be said to have stuck closer to the old ways (primus inter pares kingship_), than did the rest of the Hellenes.
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