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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2014 at 05:51
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

We won to Spain 2-0!!!! Let me celebrate!!! At last we Indians won!!

Yep, but they still have all your silver and gold.
 
Bearing in mind who you're referring that comment to Captain, it's a bit inflammatory.LOL
 
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Edited by toyomotor - 19 Jun 2014 at 05:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2014 at 11:11
Quote It is fuzzy and absurd because it doesn't correlate with the level of advancement of a society.

Yes it does. Societal advancement is a variable factor whereas 'stone age' refers to the capacity of that society, whatever form or sophistication it took, to create and use tools from their own resources. Yopu seem to have a very strong preconception that is not necessarily conformal to how historians and archaeologists view the development of tribal peoples.

The reality is that metal goods were not originated from within native American tribes. They did not have that technology, thus they belong to the category of societies that made tools from stone, wood, or animal products. In fact, the native Americans were quite good at surviving in their wilderness. Even the eastern foprests, with an abundance of natural diversity, is not an easy enviroment to survive in - witness the tales relating to frontier life or the expeditions in the AWI.

Further, the cultural aspects of the native Americans are quite well recorded, whereas the same qualities of European tribes of that level of tool use relate to societies existing thousands of yeears ago for which our efforts at reconstructing their culture are difficult, to say the least. It may well be our ancient European ancestors were as culturally diverse as the later Native American, and the concept of the brutish neanderthal grunting and clubbing anything in sight is actually inappropriate.

Pinguin, seriously, you need to stop applying this angst to categorisation. If the indians are in some special to you, fine, that's no problem. What is a problem is trying to represent them as something they weren't. We know a great deal about Native Amnerican culture and technoloy. It's not a mystery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2014 at 13:00
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Please, don't be an hypocrite, friend.
In the pre-political correctness age white people used to say "the only good Indian is the dead Indian!!!" and things like that. You must understand the poster is a joke.


You weren't treating it like a joke. I am kind of surprised you didn't go with this one...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2014 at 13:07
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

We won to Spain 2-0!!!! Let me celebrate!!! At last we Indians won!!


Uh - pinguin. I hate to be the one to tell you this, But i believe this qualifies your true inner beliefs that have just undone and disqualify all your 14,859 pro - Native American posts, with this one brief exposing moment of insecurity.


Edited by Panther - 19 Jun 2014 at 13:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 02:45
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

We won to Spain 2-0!!!! Let me celebrate!!! At last we Indians won!!

Yep, but they still have all your silver and gold.


I doubt. Spaniards were very dumb with the money they extracted from the Americas. Most of it was wasted in priests and churches, wars against the powers of Europe, buying manufactured good that Spain didn't produce and mainly paying Italian, Flemish and German bankers Confused

As Galeano wrote in his pamphlet ... I mean, his book "The Open Vein of Latin America", and I quote "Spaniards had the cow but others drunk the milk".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 02:52
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote It is fuzzy and absurd because it doesn't correlate with the level of advancement of a society.

Yes it does. Societal advancement is a variable factor whereas 'stone age' refers to the capacity of that society, whatever form or sophistication it took, to create and use tools from their own resources. Yopu seem to have a very strong preconception that is not necessarily conformal to how historians and archaeologists view the development of tribal peoples.

The reality is that metal goods were not originated from within native American tribes. They did not have that technology, thus they belong to the category of societies that made tools from stone, wood, or animal products. In fact, the native Americans were quite good at surviving in their wilderness. Even the eastern foprests, with an abundance of natural diversity, is not an easy enviroment to survive in - witness the tales relating to frontier life or the expeditions in the AWI.

Further, the cultural aspects of the native Americans are quite well recorded, whereas the same qualities of European tribes of that level of tool use relate to societies existing thousands of yeears ago for which our efforts at reconstructing their culture are difficult, to say the least. It may well be our ancient European ancestors were as culturally diverse as the later Native American, and the concept of the brutish neanderthal grunting and clubbing anything in sight is actually inappropriate.

Pinguin, seriously, you need to stop applying this angst to categorisation. If the indians are in some special to you, fine, that's no problem. What is a problem is trying to represent them as something they weren't. We know a great deal about Native Amnerican culture and technoloy. It's not a mystery.


I believe we aren't talking about the same thing, so let me define it. When I talk about Native Americans I use it in the sense of Amerindian, which means a native of the Western Hemisphere, from Alaska to the Land of Fire (with the exception perhaps of the Inuits that are more recent immigrants). So, I am not talking about Cree, Cherokees, Iroquois, Comanches and other Indians of the U.S. only. I am including in the term advanced societies like the Mayan, the Aztec, the Toltec, the Chavin, the Moche, the Incas, and surprising peoples like the Mantenos that were superb in sailing and also in gold handcraft.

And with my knowledge of the pre-Colombian societies of the Western Hemisphere I can say without hesitation that IN THE NEW WORLD there is not a direct correlation between metalworking and the advancement of societies. You very well known that tribal peoples of Africa and Eurasia of ancient times and middle ages knew iron metalurgy, but most of them didn't developed stone architecture, writing or astronomy, like some advanced civilization of the New World.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 02:56
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

We won to Spain 2-0!!!! Let me celebrate!!! At last we Indians won!!


Uh - pinguin. I hate to be the one to tell you this, But i believe this qualifies your true inner beliefs that have just undone and disqualify all your 14,859 pro - Native American posts, with this one brief exposing moment of insecurity.

 
What's wrong with identifying with the Indians? After 500 years of being looked down by the palefaces that think we mestizos are inferior, well, we don't lose any opportunity of celebrate when things go the right way for us. And nothing makes us feel happy than defeating a selfish and arrogant people like the Spaniards.

If we win or lose against Australia or Netherlands is just result more, which doesn't carry emotions. We would be happy but we think Australians and Dutch are just fellow people. But defeating the Spaniards is another thing; another cathegory of fellings.. and defeating Spaniards, that make us very happy!!! All 7 million people of Santiago was jumping and chanting yesterday!!

Remember that Spaniards call Hispanic Americans the "sudacas", which means "excrement of the south".... Well, we just call them "Gallegos" (Galicians) with means stupid Confused. So, there is not precisely love what exists between Spain and Latin America.




Edited by pinguin - 20 Jun 2014 at 03:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 03:00
Indians following Spaniards... remembering Chile defeating Spain 2-0 at the World Cup!!




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 07:07
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:



I believe we aren't talking about the same thing, so let me define it. When I talk about Native Americans I use it in the sense of Amerindian, which means a native of the Western Hemisphere, from Alaska to the Land of Fire (with the exception perhaps of the Inuits that are more recent immigrants). So, I am not talking about Cree, Cherokees, Iroquois, Comanches and other Indians of the U.S. only. I am including in the term advanced societies like the Mayan, the Aztec, the Toltec, the Chavin, the Moche, the Incas, and surprising peoples like the Mantenos that were superb in sailing and also in gold handcraft.

And with my knowledge of the pre-Colombian societies of the Western Hemisphere I can say without hesitation that IN THE NEW WORLD there is not a direct correlation between metalworking and the advancement of societies. You very well known that tribal peoples of Africa and Eurasia of ancient times and middle ages knew iron metalurgy, but most of them didn't developed stone architecture, writing or astronomy, like some advanced civilization of the New World.


I don't think you have any idea how the last sentence makes you sound extremely stupid, pinguin? Surely you're not ignoring  all the  cultural achievements of the multitude of ancient civilizations that took root from the eastern tip of China to the very Western tip of Britain in the ancient world thousands of years before the Native Americans started to become organized in a somewhat similar way?

I seriously hope that is not what you are saying. Please tell me that i misinterpreted the sentence!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2014 at 08:49
Changing the setting here for a moment, all of my heroes tend to be military men who have performed "above and beyond" the call of duty. I also recognise the marvelous work by medical scientists. 
 
In British Commonwealth countries, the highest award for bravery in combat is the Victoria Cross (for Australia, New Zealnd and most other C'Wealth countries);The Cross of Valour for Canada.
 
Historically, the British Victoria Cross was made from metal melted down from LordsNelsons ship, HMS Victory. 
 
In our system, similar to that of the US with the Congessional Medal of Honour, the reicpients are the most reverred of our military personel.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 06:57
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


Originally posted by Pinguin Pinguin wrote:


You very well known that tribal peoples of Africa and Eurasia of ancient times and middle ages knew iron metalurgy, but most of them didn't developed stone architecture, writing or astronomy, like some advanced civilization of the New World.


I don't think you have any idea how the last sentence makes you sound extremely stupid, pinguin? Surely you're not ignoring  all the  cultural achievements of the multitude of ancient civilizations that took root from the eastern tip of China to the very Western tip of Britain in the ancient world thousands of years before the Native Americans started to become organized in a somewhat similar way?

I seriously hope that is not what you are saying. Please tell me that i misinterpreted the sentence!


I am afraid you have a serious reading comprehension problem. I said "TRIBAL PEOPLE" of Eurasia and Africa. Repeat. I said "TRIBAL PEOPLES". (I know there were also great civilizations in Africa and Asia, for instance)

Well, as it happened, many TRIBAL PEOPLE of Eurasia and Africa (Yes, there were TRIBAL people on those continents, too) had copper and iron. And at the same time they didn't have anything comparable to Mayans achievements, for instance.

Please, read carefully what I post before attacking me AD HOMINEM, and putting in doubt my knowledge and mental health. I believe I deserve that respect.



Edited by pinguin - 21 Jun 2014 at 06:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 07:20
Pinguin: I can't find where you mentioned that in Europe there are many stone age(and up to Bronze Age) buildings, which predate those of South America.
 
I can't find where you mentioned that there are buildings all over the ancient known world which at least equal or outdo the South American stone buildings.
 
We've been all through this building thing in a different thread.
 
I acknowlege that the South American people built some very advanced cities and buildings, but they do not diminish the achievements of other cultures.
 
In fact, it could well be that people from another culture either built those buildings etc., or showed the Amerindians how. Was it the Carthaginians, I forget?


Edited by toyomotor - 21 Jun 2014 at 07:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 07:27
Toyomotor. I never said there weren't great civilizations in Europe, Asia or Africa. I just said that some tribal people on those same continents had iron and copper, but that didn't put them in the same level of development and achievement of the Mayan, Aztecs and other societies that lacked bronze and iron metallurgy. That was all my point. I don't know why you guys don't understand what I said!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 07:35
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Toyomotor. I never said there weren't great civilizations in Europe, Asia or Africa. I just said that some tribal people on those same continents had iron and copper, but that didn't put them in the same level of development and achievement of the Mayan, Aztecs and other societies that lacked bronze and iron metallurgy. That was all my point. I don't know why you guys don't understand what I said!!!
 
Mate, that is the problem. We do understand what you're saying, but it flys in the face of fact.
 
Different cultures progressed at different paces, possibly dependent on the amount of contact with other cultures.
 
Are you suggesting that the other cultures were behind the Mayas, Aztecs etc?
 
If you are, I'd like to see your proof.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 07:54
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:




I am afraid you have a serious reading comprehension problem. I said "TRIBAL PEOPLE" of Eurasia and Africa. Repeat. I said "TRIBAL PEOPLES". (I know there were also great civilizations in Africa and Asia, for instance)


It's moot point, subject to like versus like. Comparing one set of oranges to another.

Quote
Well, as it happened, many TRIBAL PEOPLE of Eurasia and Africa (Yes, there were TRIBAL people on those continents, too) had copper and iron. And at the same time they didn't have anything comparable to Mayans achievements, for instance.


I still do not get your point, unless you're still trying to inflate the achievements of the pre- Colombian Americas to the same equal level as the other continents?  Yes, i understand the Mayans, Incas and Aztecs were the most advanced in the pre - Colombian Americas, preceded by others like Toltec, Olmec, Teotihuacan, Norte Chico, Aymara, Valdiva, Chibcha and the Quechuas. What i don't see is how this equates with the roughly 10 dozen or so major civilizations and lesser civilizations from Europe, Asia and Africa; Unless you are talking about the conquered minorities or the handful relatively isolated tribal groups?

Quote
Please, read carefully what I post before attacking me AD HOMINEM, and putting in doubt my knowledge and mental health. I believe I deserve that respect.


Oh good lord pinguin. I don't do ad hominems. If i believe a arguably fallacious statement is uttered and it makes a person sound ridiculous or stupid, than i will say so, as i expect others would and have done the same for me.

It doesn't mean that i think that person is mental nutcase, stupid or ridiculous, it's only the statement i am concerned with. Therefor.... my observation was based entirely on the argument you were putting forth, in which i was asking for further qualification in what you had meant. I thought i was probably misinterpreting what you had posted, which appears likely to be the case.

And, if i didn't care to point this out to you, wouldn't this be even more disrespectful to you by my remaining silent and allow you to remain ignorant of how others might be perceiving you? It's not meant as a sign of disrespect, but a courtesy.


Edited by Panther - 21 Jun 2014 at 07:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 07:59
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Toyomotor. I never said there weren't great civilizations in Europe, Asia or Africa. I just said that some tribal people on those same continents had iron and copper, but that didn't put them in the same level of development and achievement of the Mayan, Aztecs and other societies that lacked bronze and iron metallurgy. That was all my point. I don't know why you guys don't understand what I said!!!
 
Mate, that is the problem. We do understand what you're saying, but it flys in the face of fact.

 


I'm glad if others are understanding him, because i am still having a little bit of trouble here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 10:00
Panther wrote:
Quote I'm glad if others are understanding him, because I am still having a little bit of trouble here.
 
I think perhaps I've gained a pretty good insight into how my mate the Pinguin thinks, and I don't mean to be patronising.
 
Unless I'm mistaken, he's proposing that the Ameroindians, by virtue of having no experience with iron based tools, built some remarkable buildings regardless.
 
I think he means, ipso facto, that they achieved the level of building that they did puts them ahead, developmentally, of the Europeans. I don't agree with his view.
 
But, as usual, he's dragging us off topic, and about now, I'll need a compass to find my way home.
Confused
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 21 Jun 2014 at 10:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 20:28
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


Are you suggesting that the other cultures were behind the Mayas, Aztecs etc?
 
If you are, I'd like to see your proof.
 


I mean no offense whatsoever, and I sorry if I do but let me say it is very difficult to explain any argument with "gringos"  Unhappy

Of course some other cultures were behind Mayans, and I don't doubt that certain other civilization were more advanced that Mayans as well. But people like the Inuits and tribal peoples of Subsaharan Africa as well knew iron metallurgy but in many other aspects they were behind mayas no matter the later were a so called "stone-age" people.

This stone-age people, the Mayans, (I would prefer to call them "obsidian" people), not only were the first in the world to develop the zero, they also had a superb calendar, they invented its own scrip for writing independently of anyone else (writing was invented only three times in planet Earth and once in the Americas by Mayans; even Greeks received writing from someone else), they developed stone architecture, underground channels, astronomy, knew the golden number, invented paper independently, etc. etc. In my opinion they were the most advanced civilization of pre-Columbian Americas, well beyond the Incas, no matter the later were metallurgists living at the so called "bronze-age".



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 20:33
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


I still do not get your point, unless you're still trying to inflate the achievements of the pre- Colombian Americas to the same equal level as the other continents?  Yes, i understand the Mayans, Incas and Aztecs were the most advanced in the pre - Colombian Americas, preceded by others like Toltec, Olmec, Teotihuacan, Norte Chico, Aymara, Valdiva, Chibcha and the Quechuas. What i don't see is how this equates with the roughly 10 dozen or so major civilizations and lesser civilizations from Europe, Asia and Africa; Unless you are talking about the conquered minorities or the handful relatively isolated tribal groups?


Indeed, I am talking about the nomadic peoples of Asia, the tribal peoples of southern India, and the tribal people of Saharan Africa. I am not talking about the Chinese empire, Egypt or Rome. Confused

Many of those tribal peoples mentioned above had iron, because that invention spread all over Eurasia, the Mediterranean and Africa.

So, I found really silly to say a people that has iron is more developed than a civilization that lacked it, just for the sake of having iron!

Why is so hard to understand that point, for goodness sake!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 20:35
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

[QUOTE=Panther]
I still do not get your point, unless you're still trying to inflate the achievements of the pre- Colombian Americas to the same equal level as the other continents?  Yes, i understand the Mayans, Incas and Aztecs were the most advanced in the pre - Colombian Americas, preceded by others like Toltec, Olmec, Teotihuacan, Norte Chico, Aymara, Valdiva, Chibcha and the Quechuas. What i don't see is how this equates with the roughly 10 dozen or so major civilizations and lesser civilizations from Europe, Asia and Africa; Unless you are talking about the conquered minorities or the handful relatively isolated tribal groups?


Indeed, I am talking about the nomadic peoples of Asia, the tribal peoples of southern India, and the tribal people of Saharan Africa. I am not talking about the Chinese empire, Egypt or Rome. Confused

Many of those tribal peoples mentioned above had iron, including the most backwards, because that invention spread all over Eurasia, the Mediterranean and Africa. Do you know Inuits had iron, for instance?

So, I found really silly to say a people that has iron is more developed than an advanced civilization that lacked it.

Why is so hard to understand that point, for goodness sake!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 20:40
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 
 Unless I'm mistaken, he's proposing that the Ameroindians, by virtue of having no experience with iron based tools, built some remarkable buildings regardless.
 

Got it. I was refearing particularly to Mayans, though. Incas had advanced metallurgy but no iron either, no matter they even had platinum alloys.
 
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


I think he means, ipso facto, that they achieved the level of building that they did puts them ahead, developmentally, of the Europeans. I don't agree with his view.
 

I never said that at contact Amerindian Civilizations were ahead to Europeans. In science and technology Europe was a thousand years more advanced than the New World, and that's the fact why the brutal barbarians could invade the Americas. Europeans also tried to invade other places of the world, like Japan for instance, where the technology was not far behind of Europe, and the barbarians were defeated.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2014 at 02:53
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 
 Unless I'm mistaken, he's proposing that the Ameroindians, by virtue of having no experience with iron based tools, built some remarkable buildings regardless.
 

Got it. I was refearing particularly to Mayans, though. Incas had advanced metallurgy but no iron either, no matter they even had platinum alloys.
 
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


I think he means, ipso facto, that they achieved the level of building that they did puts them ahead, developmentally, of the Europeans. I don't agree with his view.
 

I never said that at contact Amerindian Civilizations were ahead to Europeans. In science and technology Europe was a thousand years more advanced than the New World, and that's the fact why the brutal barbarians could invade the Americas. Europeans also tried to invade other places of the world, like Japan for instance, where the technology was not far behind of Europe, and the barbarians were defeated.
 
Mate, I understand where you're coming from, and I can agree with you when you say that the comparison is uneven, but not when you say that the Mayans etc were more advanced than the Europeans etc. Both were advanced, perhaps in different ways.
 
What I would love to know is how they built those magnificent structures without iron based tools.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2014 at 03:45
OK.

Mayans were advanced on its own scale. To which old world civilization you may compare? Perhaps with Sumerians or pre-imperial China. I don't pretend New World civilizations were more advanced that Europeans at the Age of Discovery. However, we could argue they were more advanced than the Barbarians of Greek times, for instance.

Another case are the Polynesians, that were also a "stone age" people, but that for thousand of years had the best sailing technology on the world, and that's why they conquered the Pacific.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2014 at 04:25
Dear Pinguin, please explain how the Mayans could ever hope to penetrate a Roman Testdo? Or defeat the Macedonian phalanx? Or the Indian armies Alexander faced.

As I recall the term barbarian means half-civilised, and the Greeks applied it to ALL the other countries were around them, including the above mentioned ones.

The Mayans were no doubt capable of beating the stero-type barbarians dancing around in your mind, but give me an example to think on.

The term Scythian was applied to all "savages" but even they had the supposedly undefeatable advancement of Iron.   

I do find one point I agree with you, that the metalworking of a society is not how you should judge it. The way they decide the age of a culture is its metal, and already the particular type of metal has been tacked down, so if somebody has Iron, it must be from a later period.

Furthermore bronze corrodes much slower then Iron, and so if earlier cultures had Iron tools they would be gone anyway, thus destroying all of the "ages"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2014 at 04:38
Dear Voltage:

If warfare is the measure of civilization, Mayan indeed were very backwards, because they just had obsidian weapons. But if you use other measures, like the capacity to invent, to create art and to build, then you can't compare the level of development of Mayans with Barbarians.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2014 at 04:39
Voltage wrote:
Quote Dear Pinguin, please explain how the Mayans could ever hope to penetrate a Roman Testdo? Or defeat the Macedonian phalanx? Or the Indian armies Alexander faced. 
 
On their own turf, probably the Mayans would win-no room for the Roman formations to manouvre in the jungle, same for the Indians elephants.
 
But not really relevant to the OP.
 
Nor are buildings, cultures or much of the content of this thread so far.
 
Pinguin has posted the OP based on his own perception of ancient rights and wrongs and the fact that indigenous Americans killed white invaders.
 
Definately not PC, but his view.
"Tá mé bródúil as mo oidhreacht na hÉireann".
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