| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - American Holocaust
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


American Holocaust

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:20
As usual, you focus the micro and forget the macro. Just stop your weird conclusions.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:24
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

As usual, you focus the micro and forget the macro. Just stop your weird conclusions.
 
The displacement and eventual extinction of 32 peoples is hardly a micro issue. Its a threat against human and cultural diversity, and a humanitarian catastrophe if these people would disappear.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:44
As usual, you are a rethorical fish. Study.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 22:55
So you think the eventual destruction of 32 Amerindian peoples are nothing to worry about?
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 23:32
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

So you think the eventual destruction of 32 Amerindian peoples are nothing to worry about?


I didn't say that, idiot.


Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 23:39
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:



I didn't say that, idiot.

 
Personal insults are quite meangless.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 02:17
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

As regarding to Ward Churchill, it seems that many just join the usual chorus of denial without even having read his book.
Nope. It seems that he is, bluntly, a biassed liar. Why should anyone pay any attention to his booko if he's prepared to tell lies? 
[/QUOTE]
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 02:22
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

As usual, you focus the micro and forget the macro. Just stop your weird conclusions.
 
The displacement and eventual extinction of 32 peoples is hardly a micro issue. Its a threat against human and cultural diversity, and a humanitarian catastrophe if these people would disappear.
If the members of those 32 'peoples' are killed or die of disease that could have been prevented, of course. However it would be no more or less of a catastrophe if the same number of people were killed elsewhere.
 
As for anything else, why is i such a good idea to preserve cultural diversity, given the nasty ways of behaving so many cultures come up with?  
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 05:26
The fact is American Indians are the first willing to integrate to modern society. Only the chiefs, medicine men, and wild foreign agitators prevent them to do so.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 19:14
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

As usual, you focus the micro and forget the macro. Just stop your weird conclusions.
 
The displacement and eventual extinction of 32 peoples is hardly a micro issue. Its a threat against human and cultural diversity, and a humanitarian catastrophe if these people would disappear.
If the members of those 32 'peoples' are killed or die of disease that could have been prevented, of course. However it would be no more or less of a catastrophe if the same number of people were killed elsewhere.
 
As for anything else, why is i such a good idea to preserve cultural diversity, given the nasty ways of behaving so many cultures come up with?  
 
Why is it in any way such a good idea to spread Christianity and western lifestyle considering the nasty ways of behaving that this religio cultural complex come up with?
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 19:16
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The fact is American Indians are the first willing to integrate to modern society. Only the chiefs, medicine men, and wild foreign agitators prevent them to do so.
 
My experience is that Amerindians are willing to cooperate with mutual understanding and respect  and that they are willing to exchange ideas and knowledge with the majority society without giving up their identity and without giving up their lands.
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 23:33
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

My experience is that Amerindians are willing to cooperate with mutual understanding and respect  and that they are willing to exchange ideas and knowledge with the majority society without giving up their identity and without giving up their lands.
 
Really, Carch!?! Your "experience"? Why we are all ears to hear about your forays to Brazil and residence in the Xingu Valley...of course we would love to see your archive on Amerindian land titles.
 
 
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 23:37
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

..
 
Really, Carch!?! Your "experience"? Why we are all ears to hear about your forays to Brazil and residence in the Xingu Valley...of course we would love to see your archive on Amerindian land titles.
 
 


Cosign. Let's hear what Carch has to say.
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 23:42

Well, close contacts with members of the Xingu peoples would at least count as something. On top of that I also have contact with other indigenous people from both North and South America, not to forget my contacts with Sami people here in Scandinavia. On top of that I can add contacts with anthropologists and others that worked with these issues for many years. Also contacts with people from NGO:s that are active in these matters.

 
How many members of the Xingu peoples do you know?


Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Jan 2011 at 23:44
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 00:47
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, close contacts with members of the Xingu peoples would at least count as something. On top of that I also have contact with other indigenous people from both North and South America, not to forget my contacts with Sami people here in Scandinavia. On top of that I can add contacts with anthropologists and others that worked with these issues for many years. Also contacts with people from NGO:s that are active in these matters.

 
How many members of the Xingu peoples do you know?
 
I have never met anyone calling themselves "Xingu Peoples" but boy have I met Amerinds, and not in your fairy world of agiprop, going back for some 50 years now from my days as a student of Charles Wagley (you know the Charles Wagley, who certainly knew more about Brazilian Amerinds than you do now) and friendship with William Earl Carter (erstwile Director of the Center for Latin American Studies at U of F [1965-1979] and later Chief of the Library of Congress Hispanic Division [1979-1983). Why I even had my collection of coca pouches from the Aymara seized by US Customs as "drug paraphernalia" upon return from one of my field trips.
 
However, such has never blinded me to the fact that your run-of-the-mill anthropologist has a vested interest in Amerinds not as individuals nor as human beings but as the equivalent of lab rats as captured most disgustingly in this jargon-laden summation of research priorities found on-line:
 
 
And that is a trait you so heartily share and for which I have nothing but contempt.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 22 Jan 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 5080
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 05:37
"Klaatu barada xingu."  LOL

 


Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 06:24
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
However, such has never blinded me to the fact that your run-of-the-mill anthropologist has a vested interest in Amerinds not as individuals nor as human beings but as the equivalent of lab rats as captured most disgustingly in this jargon-laden summation of research priorities found on-line:
 
And that is a trait you so heartily share and for which I have nothing but contempt.


Agreed. I believe Carcha is a Swedish "hobby" Indian.

Here, a Czech "hobby" Indians club



He forgets we, Latin Americans, have real Amerindian blood. Is it pathetic that Europeans want to deffend half of our genetic heritage.

Come on, European "hobby" Indians. Give up.


Edited by pinguin - 15 Jan 2011 at 06:27
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 06:27
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

"Klaatu barada xingu."  LOL
 
Thanks for the chuckle, Pike...now if I can only still the engine that drives Carch as testimony to my technologial prowess all would be well...
 
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 06:40
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

As usual, you focus the micro and forget the macro. Just stop your weird conclusions.
 
The displacement and eventual extinction of 32 peoples is hardly a micro issue. Its a threat against human and cultural diversity, and a humanitarian catastrophe if these people would disappear.
If the members of those 32 'peoples' are killed or die of disease that could have been prevented, of course. However it would be no more or less of a catastrophe if the same number of people were killed elsewhere.
 
As for anything else, why is i such a good idea to preserve cultural diversity, given the nasty ways of behaving so many cultures come up with?  
 
Why is it in any way such a good idea to spread Christianity and western lifestyle considering the nasty ways of behaving that this religio cultural complex come up with?
People are healthier, live longer, have more choices open to them, and enjoy more material prosperity in general. Which I assume you value, or you'd have gone back to nature yourself.
(And anyway I don't particularly favour spreading Christianity, I just don't see much harm in it generally speaking, as long as it's genuine.)
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 06:48
What is this!? Pinguin is agreeing with the doctor? Shocked Has the fruit of Lucifer's loins been born unto this earth right under our very noses? Has hell frozen over? Is the end of days really finally upon us? Might there actually be something to the Maya's blathering? Are we about to be swamped by a ton of national enquirer reporters? Enquiring minds want to know!

Stay tuned...
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 22:06
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

What is this!? Pinguin is agreeing with the doctor? Shocked Has the fruit of Lucifer's loins been born unto this earth right under our very noses? Has hell frozen over? Is the end of days really finally upon us? Might there actually be something to the Maya's blathering? Are we about to be swamped by a ton of national enquirer reporters? Enquiring minds want to know!

Stay tuned...


Panther. I agree with the doctor in some topics and in others with Carcha.
However, remember than both the doctor and Carcha are outsiders to the realities of Latin America, so I think both have distorted views on our local realities.

With respect to ancient American cultures and civilizations, I admire theirs ingenuity, theirs arts and architecture, but I am not naive and I know they had many inhuman custums as well. Tyrany was impossed by the Incas before than the Spaniards. Murder was practised in mass by the Aztecs before Cortes. There were oppresed peoples in pre-Columbian times, and the oppinion of the civilized Amerindian citizens of the large empires was very bad on the jungle peoples Carcha idealizes.

Yes, I agree and criticize both because I think they don't know the whole picture.

With respect to contemporary Amerindians, I agree they deserve to keep theirs lands, and that the duty of the state is to give them certain degree of independence. I agree languages must be preserve and also arts, traditions and cultures, as a matter of keeping and identity and also for the pride of contemporary common citizens of the region.

I don't agree with Carcha that indians have to keep theirs ancient lifestyles, hunting nudes, killing themselves in tribal wars and living 30 years in average. Nope, I want the Indians that remain in the tribal condition that become lawyers, soccer players and rock stars. I want they learn to drive and to make theirs own industries. I want them to go to college and also succeed in other than ethnic activities. At least, that the way Indians in Chile lives. That's the only way to preserve a people alive in a modern world.



Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2011 at 02:50
Aha...I now have an example of the dangers that arise from "thinking" too much!
 
The Pinguin wrote:
 
However, remember than both the doctor and Carcha are outsiders to the realities of Latin America, so I think both have distorted views on our local realities.

Yes, I agree and criticize both because I think they don't know the whole picture.

Yes, it is very dangerous to think premised solely upon assumptions divorced from experience, my dear Pinguin, but even though I might surmise that Carcharadon could not distinguish between a Cayapo and a Tupinamba, I would not concern myself with thought over that matter, his disconnected presentations suffice for the fixing of conclusion.

Now as for the whole picture and as concerns me directly perhaps I should borrow a stock phrase from Jose Marti: Vivi en el monstruo y le conozco sus entranas ["I have lived in the monster and know its entrails"--popularized as "I have lived in the belly of the beast and know its entrails"]. Of course, given his penchant perhaps Pinguin would resort to disparaging Marti as little more than the son of peninsulares (or his stock word: gallegos), but then Marti was speaking of the United States. Yet, his lesson there is much the same as that which underscores my reasoning. In a way, much of contemporary Latin America is still living in the 19th century (no, not materially but intellectually) and just as much as Allende was an atavism in the 1970s so too much of the rhetoric of gringos and American exploitation of Latin American resources. One might easily say that both Venezuela and Bolivia have taken as their stock-in-trade the thoughts and politics of Victor Haya de la Torre from the 1920s and 30s, and such are now in conflict with the realities of modernity. One might say such is but another reflection of the New World as Eden with all of its implications, just as nationalism is but 19th century New Leftism no matter whether you place the horse facing left rather than right (as old Hugo did). Needless to say, Pinguin has already felt the sting of my analysis on modern versions of La Raza Cosmica. By the way, Pinguin, in my long life I have lived probably as much time in Latin America as I have within the United States [why in 1947-1948 I lived right across the street from the Russian Embassy in "Los Pinos", Caracas, Venezuela], do you know the implications of that statement within Venezuela's own history?
 
Anyway, with regard to politics and intellectual current (as apart from the actual vicissitudes of daily life), here is an interesting on-line essay to read:
 
"The Old Cause" by Joseph R. Stromberg
 
 
Now before you go into shock that I am referencing anti-war agiprop, keep in mind that I have given thought to what is presented and find no fault in the clarity of its analysis. Now if that is not a hint as to where I am coming from when I take you to task then...
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 16 Jan 2011 at 02:53
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2011 at 03:22
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Aha...I now have an example of the dangers that arise from "thinking" too much!
 
The Pinguin wrote:
 
However, remember than both the doctor and Carcha are outsiders to the realities of Latin America, so I think both have distorted views on our local realities.

Yes, I agree and criticize both because I think they don't know the whole picture.

Yes, it is very dangerous to think premised solely upon assumptions divorced from experience, my dear Pinguin, but even though I might surmise that Carcharadon could not distinguish between a Cayapo and a Tupinamba, I would not concern myself with thought over that matter, his disconnected presentations suffice for the fixing of conclusion.

Now as for the whole picture and as concerns me directly perhaps I should borrow a stock phrase from Jose Marti: Vivi en el monstruo y le conozco sus entranas ["I have lived in the monster and know its entrails"--popularized as "I have lived in the belly of the beast and know its entrails"]. Of course, given his penchant perhaps Pinguin would resort to disparaging Marti as little more than the son of peninsulares (or his stock word: gallegos), but then Marti was speaking of the United States. Yet, his lesson there is much the same as that which underscores my reasoning. In a way, much of contemporary Latin America is still living in the 19th century (no, not materially but intellectually) and just as much as Allende was an atavism in the 1970s so too much of the rhetoric of gringos and American exploitation of Latin American resources. One might easily say that both Venezuela and Bolivia have taken as their stock-in-trade the thoughts and politics of Victor Haya de la Torre from the 1920s and 30s, and such are now in conflict with the realities of modernity. One might say such is but another reflection of the New World as Eden with all of its implications, just as nationalism is but 19th century New Leftism no matter whether you place the horse facing left rather than right (as old Hugo did). Needless to say, Pinguin has already felt the sting of my analysis on modern versions of La Raza Cosmica. By the way, Pinguin, in my long life I have lived probably as much time in Latin America as I have within the United States [why in 1947-1948 I lived right across the street from the Russian Embassy in "Los Pinos", Caracas, Venezuela], do you know the implications of that statement within Venezuela's own history?
 
Anyway, with regard to politics and intellectual current (as apart from the actual vicissitudes of daily life), here is an interesting on-line essay to read:
 
"The Old Cause" by Joseph R. Stromberg
 
 
Now before you go into shock that I am referencing anti-war agiprop, keep in mind that I have given thought to what is presented and find no fault in the clarity of its analysis. Now if that is not a hint as to where I am coming from when I take you to task then...
 


Interesting that you have visited Latin America as much. But still, you don't have Indian blood in your veins. In my case, I have Amerindian ancestors, although minoritary. I also have friends, some close women and colleages who are Amerindians. I also have relatives, particularly some nephews, that look like Pre-Columbian portrait pottery LOL

With respect to Marti, I believe Cuba is a bit different from mainland Latin America, because that is mainly a mulatto country, where the Indigenous peoples were almost fully wiped out. However, I agree with you that Chavez is a character which is out of tune with modern times.

With respect to gallegos, I mean Spaniards, LOL my great-Grand father, Santiago Luis de la Vega Santander, came from Spain in the 19th century, actually from Santander. I have other ancestors that came from the peninsulae as well. He looked like a full gringo, which amazes me LOL. But, in any case, I bet I know the Spanish culture as much as a local, and it is a country that has my roots.

I just complain about contemporary arrogant Spaniards! But, anyways.






Edited by pinguin - 16 Jan 2011 at 03:23
Back to Top
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 30 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2153
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2011 at 03:58

As for anything else, why is i such a good idea to preserve cultural diversity, given the nasty ways of behaving so many cultures come up with?  

 

 

This is an interesting question. A popular view today is that this sort of thing is sacrosanct, but there are many aspects of culture that are not all that attractive, if political correctness is stripped away.

 

In his book Before the Dawn, Nicolas Wade makes a case that tribal societies were more violent and warlike than is often portrayed. Warfare between neighboring hunter-gatherer groups was often continuous in ancient times. He estimates that about 30% of males in these tribes died in battle, a figure that even the worst of modern technological warfare can’t match.

 

Preservation of aboriginal culture is very prominent in Canada today. The new territory on Nunavut was created out of the north to recognize Inuit culture and history. The project has been somewhat successful, although expensive. The Inuit have a sort of homeland within the Canadian state, but it is subsidized completely by the federal government.

 

A recent initiative makes Inuktitut, the aboriginal language, an official language of the territory, theoretically at least guaranteeing all government services could be delivered in that language to those that desired it. Yet they are falling far short of this goal, and there aren’t nearly enough people working in professional positions who can speak this language. This is problematic, as the territory needs to attract skilled individuals to its relatively undeveloped (and darned cold) location, if they wish to rise above subsidization.

 

On a slightly different scale, there was an interesting story out of the province of Quebec recently. In an attempt to preserve a minority language within a sea of English speakers, Quebec has for some time strongly promoted French within that province. It is now the official language, and English is somewhat restrained by law. Despite many years of effort, today many young people attending college still want to be fluent in English……a language that itself is evolving and changing.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/014303832X/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1A3Q36X10X3MFKYYFN8C&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846#_

 

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec/study-fears-allure-of-english-over-quebec-postsecondary-students/article1868665/

Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2011 at 05:05
Interesting that in all of these diversions one fact stands out,the propensity to confuse heritage with culture and anachronistic definition of the latter to boot. Perhaps such foolishness is a clear indication of the influence of North American intellectuals and the nonsense of multi-culturalism shaped by political polemics during the course of the 1960s and 70s [a perfect example of such is the fiction of Kwanza].
For example, Pinguin, perorated on the mestizo and in doing so inverted the entire process of the colonial experience where the meaning implied more than just some Amerind ancestry and instead focused on the fact that the individual was a part of the common cultural mileu--i.e. he was not an Indio but an integrated element in the common social fabric. That contemporaries with such ancestry take to playing--to borrow a descriptive--"hobby Indians" is fascinating. As Captain Vancouver implied and I infer when discussing the Inuit to what degree are such antics political fictions generated by rather awkward definitions that fail to take into consideration modern reality? Imagine the comedy were all of the descendants of Charlemagne [i.e. the "crowned" heads of Europe] suddenly to decide that their identity required the reinvention of old Frankish and the prancing about in woolen gowns as a demand of self-respect.
 
Then there are the blinders carelessly worn as when Pinguin wrote:
 
Cuba is a bit different from mainland Latin America, because that is mainly a mulatto country
 
Hogwash is the kindest comment possible for such nonsense. We will disregard the implications that such eagerness over type is but subtle Racism and stemming directly from the not-so-subtle. One might say that the "road to hell is paved by good intentions" and certainly one can understand how Vasconcelos could intellectualize indigenismo and employ the imagery of la raza cosmica in an effort to construct and educate for the purpose of instilling national dignity and social unity, but we can never lose sight that all of it was political artifice. Here is a picture of UNAM's elite in full "indigenous" glory:
 
Jose Vasconcelos (left) with Jose Urquidi, Rafael Zubiran and Dr. Peredo.
 
Hmm...gallegos anyone?
 
 
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 16 Jan 2011 at 05:16
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2011 at 07:39
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


For example, Pinguin, perorated on the mestizo and in doing so inverted the entire process of the colonial experience where the meaning implied more than just some Amerind ancestry and instead focused on the fact that the individual was a part of the common cultural mileu--i.e. he was not an Indio but an integrated element in the common social fabric. That contemporaries with such ancestry take to playing--to borrow a descriptive--"hobby Indians" is fascinating. As Captain Vancouver implied and I infer when discussing the Inuit to what degree are such antics political fictions generated by rather awkward definitions that fail to take into consideration modern reality? Imagine the comedy were all of the descendants of Charlemagne [i.e. the "crowned" heads of Europe] suddenly to decide that their identity required the reinvention of old Frankish and the prancing about in woolen gowns as a demand of self-respect.


Don't be silly, doctor. You are not mestizo so you don't understand.
I live in a country where the Amerindian heritage is seen not only in the faces of people, and in our common traditions. It is known from the beginning.

And an European as yourself are not going to that that from us. After all, we expelled Spain 200 years ago to be what we wish. LOL


Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Then there are the blinders carelessly worn as when Pinguin wrote:
 
Cuba is a bit different from mainland Latin America, because that is mainly a mulatto country
 
Hogwash is the kindest comment possible for such nonsense. We will disregard the implications that such eagerness over type is but subtle Racism and stemming directly from the not-so-subtle.


Truth hurts you so much? Confused Cuba is a country of Iberians and Africans. It is not the standard mainland country at all. That's the reality. Live with it, chocolito. Wink

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
One might say that the "road to hell is paved by good intentions" and certainly one can understand how Vasconcelos could intellectualize indigenismo and employ the imagery of la raza cosmica in an effort to construct and educate for the purpose of instilling national dignity and social unity, but we can never lose sight that all of it was political artifice. Here is a picture of UNAM's elite in full "indigenous" glory:
 
Jose Vasconcelos (left) with Jose Urquidi, Rafael Zubiran and Dr. Peredo.
 
Hmm...gallegos anyone?


Vasconcelos simply create an eductational model for Mexico. Peoples from the 19th century, 100 years before Vasconcelos, identified with American indians as well.

I see you haven't read about the mentality at independence times, and obviously, you have never heared about the Lautaro Lodge. Also, do you ignore that Tupac Amaru was mestizo?

Yes, my Euro-galician friend. I am afraid you need a lot more than just visiting a country to get ours mentality.



Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2011 at 07:46
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

As for anything else, why is i such a good idea to preserve cultural diversity, given the nasty ways of behaving so many cultures come up with?  

 

 

This is an interesting question. A popular view today is that this sort of thing is sacrosanct, but there are many aspects of culture that are not all that attractive, if political correctness is stripped away.

 

In his book Before the Dawn, Nicolas Wade makes a case that tribal societies were more violent and warlike than is often portrayed. Warfare between neighboring hunter-gatherer groups was often continuous in ancient times. He estimates that about 30% of males in these tribes died in battle, a figure that even the worst of modern technological warfare can’t match.

 



Indeed. Tribal warfare was very common. That's something we know very well in South America.


Here, unlike in Canada, we are thought the possitive but also the negative parts of our ancient native cultures. Here we know the glory of the Incas, but we also know they practised human sacrifices of children and women in the upper mountains Confused. Here we admire Easter Islanders, but we know they passed thught periods of hunger and canibbalism Confused. And also we admire Mapuches, but we know they also practised human sacrifices when they suffered cataclisms.


Why to hide truth? Humans of all cultures have part of saint and also evil. That's human nature.




Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2011 at 10:56
Don't be ridiculous, Pinguin, there is probably more racial diversity in my extended family than in your entire barrio in Santiago! And please do not get me started on the actualities of racial prejudice in Chile itself under the guise of class if not caste, for it is not the understanding paradise you wish everyone to imagine. Then there is the folderol over the Lautaro Lodge worthy of the brainwashing needed to earn a 32nd degree, but then we are talking Cadiz in the 1790s and the children of haughty bureaucrats in the colonial world. Nacionalismo may be entertaining but leave such perorations for the delectation of the gullible. You unwittingly revealed the presence of prejudice when you labeled Cuba a mulato nation! And after all we have yet to hear what constitutes a "standard mainland country"? Nor is there any difference between countries when it comes to the forging of national myths, that Chile had to borrow a Peruvian  for that purpose (Tupac Amaru, please!) is more than entertaining, but hey George Washington could not tell a lie! One would thing that you had at least matured sufficiently not the need such fables and mythmaking as a social crutch.
 
Oh, but what can I know after all I supposedly carry an Euro-Galician passport! ROTFLMAO! Excuse me but I must pack so as to undertake the annual pilgrimage on the Chemin de Saint Jacques...
 
You are a hoot Pinguin...anything familar about this photo? In the event it does not show, go here: http://www.ourwar.org/lang/en/archives/208
Fast action against mapuche political prison


Edited by drgonzaga - 16 Jan 2011 at 11:01
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2011 at 11:28
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Don't be ridiculous, Pinguin, there is probably more racial diversity in my extended family than in your entire barrio in Santiago! And please do not get me started on the actualities of racial prejudice in Chile itself under the guise of class if not caste, for it is not the understanding paradise you wish everyone to imagine.


Indeed. We, Chileans are a very uniform people, and certainly we don't look like the people in the Kingdom of Cuba. Wink

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Then there is the folderol over the Lautaro Lodge worthy of the brainwashing needed to earn a 32nd degree, but then we are talking Cadiz in the 1790s and the children of haughty bureaucrats in the colonial world.

 
Lautaro was the source of inspiration of those mestizos that were our founding fathers.



That was the beginning of the war against the gallegos, you know.



Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Nacionalismo may be entertaining but leave such perorations for the delectation of the gullible. You unwittingly revealed the presence of prejudice when you labeled Cuba a mulato nation!


So, saying that Cuba is a mulato nation is racist? Well, Cuba is a mulato nation. Live with it.

These are Cubans. They don't look like the largest majorities in continental Latin America, mi negro.



Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


And after all we have yet to hear what constitutes a "standard mainland country"? Nor is there any difference between countries when it comes to the forging of national myths, that Chile had to borrow a Peruvian  for that purpose (Tupac Amaru, please!) is more than entertaining, but hey George Washington could not tell a lie! One would thing that you had at least matured sufficiently not the need such fables and mythmaking as a social crutch.


Chile borrowing Tupac Amaru? What the heck are you talking about. The Uruguayans borrowed that name for the Tupamaros. Our revolutionary guerrillas honored locals, like Lautaro and Manuel Rodrigues.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Oh, but what can I know after all I supposedly carry an Euro-Galician passport! ROTFLMAO! Excuse me but I must pack so as to undertake the annual pilgrimage on the Chemin de Saint Jacques...


Yes, I bet you use an euro passport playing the Gaita with a Basque hat, like your people do.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


You are a hoot Pinguin...anything familar about this photo? In the event it does not show, go here: 
Fast action against mapuche political prison


Better, sing with me. And notice my people don't look Cuban Wink




Edited by pinguin - 16 Jan 2011 at 11:38
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 01:16
Gee, how Amerind, and to a rap beat no less...what next Eminem as the example of libertarianism in a North American environment?  Thanks for the chuckle courtesy of youtube.
 
Of course, the really uproarious in your manufacture of stereotype was the proclamation that both O'Higgins and San Martin were mestizos? You wrote:
 
Lautaro was the source of inspiration of those mestizos that were our founding fathers.

Really? I do believe you are confusing the term criollo for mestizo and hence inverting the actual process driving the independence movements. But, hey, wasn't it you that made the assertion that San Martin viewed the Blacks of Mendoza as cannon fodder? Now, should we discuss the mestizo roots of Dr. Francia in Paraguay nor should we forget to include the Aztec heritage of Iturbide? But, shucks, why stop there when we have Simon Jose Antonio de la Santissima Trinidad Bolivar y Palacios as the paragon of the mestizo Mason. He probably would have had you shot for calling him a mestizo.
 
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.