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Amerindian architecture

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 22:32
As I mentioned before, also architecture made of more perishable materials is very interesting and intricate. For example one can take the buildings of the Kamayura (and other peoples in the Upper Xingu). These airy constructions is made of a frame of wood that is covered by Sape grass. The houses are located in a context of deep symbolic and cultural meaning.
 
Framework of a house
 
Women approaching a Kamayura house
 
Kamayura house
 
Children in the Kamayura village


Edited by Carcharodon - 10 Jan 2011 at 22:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 23:14
Here is an interesting example of the structure and the covering of a house in the upper Xingu, belonging to the Kuikuro people:
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 00:24
There was an element of the ironic in the above post and in a sense an inadvertant confession of ignorance while expressing fascination for what is perceived as alien. Carch wrote:
 
As I mentioned before, also architecture made of more perishable materials is very interesting and intricate. For example one can take the buildings of the Kamayura (and other peoples in the Upper Xingu). These airy constructions is made of a frame of wood that is covered by Sape grass. The houses are located in a context of deep symbolic and cultural meaning.
 
There is as much symbolism and cultural meaning of "housing" for any peoples you might wish to analyze and then perorate upon, and strikingly the symbolism all revolves around religion and Man's conceptualizations of the surrounding universe both immediate and distant. Given that incontravertible ponderable, look around any abode--yes even your own house, Carch--and search for expressions of the symbolic and the cultural. One can easily conclude that what fascinates here is the rootlessness of the observer rather than any distinctive originality in the observed. There are also other fundamentals linked to environmental factors that in a sense dictate form and still do so today if one desires comfort and security within particular environments.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 00:34
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

There was an element of the ironic in the above post and in a sense an inadvertant confession of ignorance while expressing fascination for what is perceived as alien. Carch wrote:
 
As I mentioned before, also architecture made of more perishable materials is very interesting and intricate. For example one can take the buildings of the Kamayura (and other peoples in the Upper Xingu). These airy constructions is made of a frame of wood that is covered by Sape grass. The houses are located in a context of deep symbolic and cultural meaning.
 
There is as much symbolism and cultural meaning of "housing" for any peoples you might wish to analyze and then perorate upon, and strikingly the symbolism all revolves around religion and Man's conceptualizations of the surrounding universe both immediate and distant. Given that incontravertible ponderable, look around any abode--yes even your own house, Carch--and search for expressions of the symbolic and the cultural. One can easily conclude that what fascinates here is the rootlessness of the observer rather than any distinctive originality in the observed. There are also other fundamentals linked to environmental factors that in a sense dictate form and still do so today if one desires comfort and security within particular environments.
 
Well, I have actually also pondered on different traditional houses and sites in different settings here in Sweden and their symbolic and cultural meaning, in archaeological and ethnological contexts.
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 11 Jan 2011 at 00:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 01:56
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, I have actually also pondered on different traditional houses and sites in different settings here in Sweden and their symbolic and cultural meaning, in archaeological and ethnological contexts.
The suggestion was thatyou should stop concerning yourself with only 'traditional' houses and pay some attention to those all around you.
I would be vey surprised to hear you were living - or would consider living - in a hut of branches somewhere on the tundra. Or even a 'traditional' medieval cottage or a 'traditional' London slum house.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 02:14
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, I have actually also pondered on different traditional houses and sites in different settings here in Sweden and their symbolic and cultural meaning, in archaeological and ethnological contexts.
The suggestion was thatyou should stop concerning yourself with only 'traditional' houses and pay some attention to those all around you.
I would be vey surprised to hear you were living - or would consider living - in a hut of branches somewhere on the tundra. Or even a 'traditional' medieval cottage or a 'traditional' London slum house.
 
I have actually lived in several kind of different buildings and structures, among them traditional dwellings in different environments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 02:19
(dĕn'sĭ-tē) pronunciation
n., pl., -ties.
  1. The quality or condition of being dense.
    1. The quantity of something per unit measure, especially per unit length, area, or volume.
    2. The mass per unit volume of a substance under specified conditions of pressure and temperature.
  2. Computer Science. The number of units of useful information contained within a linear dimension.
  3. The number of individuals, such as inhabitants or housing units, per unit of area.
  4. The degree of optical opacity of a medium or material, as of a photographic negative.
  5. Thickness of consistency; impenetrability.
  6. Complexity of structure or content.
  7. Stupidity; dullness.



Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/density#ixzz1AeMLxWr0
 
With all due apologies to Forum Members whose patience has been tried endlessly by these pointless perorations that assume ignorance on the part of all save the particularly "enlightened ones" whose principal purpose is to bring all to "salvation".


Edited by drgonzaga - 11 Jan 2011 at 02:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 02:22
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

(dĕn'sĭ-tē) pronunciation
n., pl., -ties.
  1. The quality or condition of being dense.
    1. The quantity of something per unit measure, especially per unit length, area, or volume.
    2. The mass per unit volume of a substance under specified conditions of pressure and temperature.
  2. Computer Science. The number of units of useful information contained within a linear dimension.
  3. The number of individuals, such as inhabitants or housing units, per unit of area.
  4. The degree of optical opacity of a medium or material, as of a photographic negative.
  5. Thickness of consistency; impenetrability.
  6. Complexity of structure or content.
  7. Stupidity; dullness.



Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/density#ixzz1AeMLxWr0
 
In what way does your post contribute to anything regarding the subject of Amerindian architecture?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 02:30
(är'kĭ-tĕk'chər) pronunciation
n.
  1. The art and science of designing and erecting buildings.
  2. Buildings and other large structures: the low, brick-and-adobe architecture of the Southwest.
  3. A style and method of design and construction: Byzantine architecture.
  4. Orderly arrangement of parts; structure: the architecture of the federal bureaucracy; the architecture of a novel.
  5. Computer Science. The overall design or structure of a computer system, including the hardware and the software required to run it, especially the internal structure of the microprocessor.

[Latin architectura, from architectus, architect. See architect.]



Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/architecture#ixzz1AePAMPMU
 
Pretty pictures and perorations on this and that over culture does not even touch upon the hows and whys if we are discussing "architecture"...so kindly stop insulting the inate intelligence of others by treating all as little more than simplistic curiosity.


Edited by drgonzaga - 11 Jan 2011 at 02:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 03:39
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
In what way does your post contribute to anything regarding the subject of Amerindian architecture?


Again, there is no an Amerindian architecture.
How come you could compare Inca, Maya or Anazasi architecture to the huts of your jungle people of the Xingu. Angry


Edited by pinguin - 11 Jan 2011 at 03:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 10:35
By the way, some of the finest wood structures in the Americas were done in the North West of North America... not in the Xingu.








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 10:55
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

...Carch wrote:
 
As I mentioned before, also architecture made of more perishable materials is very interesting and intricate. For example one can take the buildings of the Kamayura (and other peoples in the Upper Xingu). These airy constructions is made of a frame of wood that is covered by Sape grass. The houses are located in a context of deep symbolic and cultural meaning.
 
There is as much symbolism and cultural meaning of "housing" for any peoples you might wish to analyze and then perorate upon, and strikingly the symbolism all revolves around religion and Man's conceptualizations of the surrounding universe both immediate and distant....


True.
In any case, when I shown before the cosmological symbolism of the Mapuche house, I didn't forget that in the Western culture, there is also customs and rituals. Otherwise, how come in some Catholic countries (like mine) houses are baptised with holly water? Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 21:30
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
In what way does your post contribute to anything regarding the subject of Amerindian architecture?


Again, there is no an Amerindian architecture.
How come you could compare Inca, Maya or Anazasi architecture to the huts of your jungle people of the Xingu. Angry
 
Well, you are right per se, but I just called it so as a sort of common denominator. If one shall go into details one have to treat the architecture of different cultures and peoples separately. Also one must place the architecture in its environmental, historical and cultural context.
 
Perhaps I should open a separate thread sometime about the art and architecture of the Xingu, or of the Amazon in general.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

By the way, some of the finest wood structures in the Americas were done in the North West of North America... not in the Xingu.
 
Fine is ofcourse a very relative and subjective expression, but I agree that the art and architecture of the North West coast of North America is really impressive and interesting.


Edited by Carcharodon - 11 Jan 2011 at 21:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 21:49
Whatever the merits of the buildings of the Kwakiutl (in Boas's sense), showing pictures of modern ideas of what they may have looked like is hardly evidentiary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 09:55
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Whatever the merits of the buildings of the Kwakiutl (in Boas's sense), showing pictures of modern ideas of what they may have looked like is hardly evidentiary.


Unfortunately, there is no way to know how they looked in the past. Wooden buildings are perishable. At least, I am not aware if an ancient house was preserved.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 21:46
At least here is an 1880s photograph of the Kwakiutl Village of Xumtaspi-Nawittl, 
on Hope Island, BC. On the front of the house at the right are 3 painted family crests.
(American Museum of Natural History/Dept of Library Services).
 
Kwakiutl Village of Xumtaspi-Nawittl
 
 
Here is a Kwakiutl House. It is a close up view of Johnny Scow's house as it appeared circa 1918 (Royal British Columbia Museum, Ethnology Division).
 
Kwakiutl House
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Jan 2011 at 21:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 23:43
As a sidenote one can also see that in some cases the arrival of the western civilisation has meant a deteroriation of the standard of living, as for example in the Vaupes area in Colombia were missionaries forced and coerced native groups to leave their relatively healthy and airy multifamily houses, Malokas, and move into small one family dwellings made of twigs and mud (all in the name of so called decensy, so one could, among other things, separate unmarried individuals of different sex), which according to an anthropologist who worked in the area was to induce a decline in archtitectural and hygienical standard of several thousands of years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 23:57
Deteroration of standar of living


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 00:25
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Deteroration of standar of living


 
It was hardly this kind of architecture that the Amerindians of Vaupes were forced to move into. Wacko
 
By the way, the forcing of the Amerindians in Vaupes into small, cramped dwellings, was combined with the enforced wearing of so called civilized and proper clothes. All this together lead to an increase in tuberculosis, infections and vermin.
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 20 Jan 2011 at 00:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 00:56
Yes, Latinos don't worry for indigenous people...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 01:55
Did I say so? There are ofcourse also Latinos that care about indigenous people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 11:19
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Did I say so? There are ofcourse also Latinos that care about indigenous people.


Most Latinos do. If you want to prove a case of discrimination against Indians, you should be aware that non Indigenous poor people suffer as much as the Indians, in Brazil and other parts. Just see what Caboclos and Riverinhos has to say about discrimination.



Here the bad guys, according to the Caboclos, aren't the White men, but the Brazilian state and the BLACK PEOPLE! Dead

So, if you want to prove racial discrimination in Brazil, welcome to a Pandora box Confused





Edited by pinguin - 20 Jan 2011 at 11:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 23:22
About the architecture and planning of settlements in precolumbian Xingu archaeologist Michael Heckenberger has noticed some similarities with the garden cities proposed by british city planner Ebenzer Howard in late 19th and early 20th centuries. Heckenberger thinks that Howard would have recognized some similarities and included them in his writings if he had known about the Xingu settlements.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 11:52
Garden cities? You mean extended cities.
Small farmers communities were pretty common accross the Americas. That's the way Mayan, Mapuches and many other peoples lived. The idea was that people lived widespread in small farms, and each people produced its own food.
This form of settlement is intermediate between the nomadic hunter gatherer lifestyle and the cities, and was present worldwide at some stage of development.

There is nothing new under the sun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 22:04
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  Garden cities? You mean extended cities.
Small farmers communities were pretty common accross the Americas. That's the way Mayan, Mapuches and many other peoples lived. The idea was that people lived widespread in small farms, and each people produced its own food.
This form of settlement is intermediate between the nomadic hunter gatherer lifestyle and the cities, and was present worldwide at some stage of development.

There is nothing new under the sun.
 
What Howard (and Heckenberer) means with garden cities are cities, or communities, where smaller city units or towns, are spread out and integrated in the surrounding farmland and natural landscape. This is another approach than concentrating the habitation in larger cities. In Howards vision, these garden cities where connected by roads (and in the case of Howard also by railroads). We se similar patterns in the Xingu case, even if Howards units were thought to have larger populations. Also the shape of Howards garden cities remind of the Xingu settlements.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

This form of settlement is intermediate between the nomadic hunter gatherer lifestyle and the cities, and was present worldwide at some stage of development.
 
If it is something between, it is rather between more disperesed small scale agriculture and cities.
 
One shall not forget that there are many types of agriculture and settlement that often complement each other. One can not simplify it by saying that one form is just an intermediate between two other forms. The evolution of settlement is not always that simple.


Edited by Carcharodon - 05 Feb 2011 at 22:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 22:12
You should read more about other cultures or civilizations. The Mayans and Angkor Vat used the same "spread city" approach, and who knows how many others.
Howard vision is nothing new. And, as usual, utopias fall. Look what happened with the last utopian city in Brazil: Brazilia


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 22:27
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You should read more about other cultures or civilizations. The Mayans and Angkor Vat used the same "spread city" approach, and who knows how many others.
Howard vision is nothing new.
 
Yes I have read a lot about other cultures and civilisations, after all I work with these kind of things. Noone said that Xingu was alone having a spread out pattern, but one can see similarities between the Xingu cities, in both shape and function with some of Howards concepts.
 
 
One of Howards concepts with clusters of smaller units. They remind somewhat of the clustered structure of the upper Xingu large settlements.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 05 Feb 2011 at 22:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 23:33
Isn't that a fractal pattern? If so, the Xingu settlement followed it? That's getting interesting

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 23:41
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Isn't that a fractal pattern? If so, the Xingu settlement followed it? That's getting interesting

 
Yes, in one of his articles about the Xingu, Michael Heckenberger mentions the fractal patterns in the villages and the clusters.


Edited by Carcharodon - 05 Feb 2011 at 23:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 23:49
That's interesting. Most people in the world don't have fractal pattern of settlement at all. civilizations like Greece, Rome, China, India, the Anazasi, Mayans or Incas don't have fractal patterns. The only place where systematic fractal patterns of settlement has been found so far is in tribal Africa! Read this page on the expert, Ron Eglash.

http://www.rpi.edu/~eglash/eglash.htm


Now I got interested in this Michael Heckenberg and his Xingu fractals. Refferences, please.



Edited by pinguin - 05 Feb 2011 at 23:53
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