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Ancient meditteranean colonisation

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2010 at 05:02
Patrinos, perhaps what is at stake here is a language problem, but a contemporary one. My objection came within the context of Griko as a remnant of Classical Greek integrally tied to the original period of colonization. I bluntly stated no, it was not, since in expression and vocabulary it was instantly recognizable as Koine and therefore represented a continuation of contact typical of the Roman world, which persevered within the context of  the 5th to 9th centuries AD. My allusion to subsequent centuries was employed as illustration of these continued affinities between the Italian peninsula and the Trans-Adriatic well into the 16th century (and, of course, even occurs today in the guise of the "Albanians").
 
Perhaps I should have been more emphatic in the periodization, but I concluded that most had an understanding of the politics of the Italian peninsula in the period between the 4th and 8th centuries AD.  I did nowhere state that 15th century migrations lay at the bottom of contemporary Greeks "grasping" Griko, I actually stated the following:
 
Griko is "modern" Greek and reflective of the continued contact between Southern Italy and the "Byzantine" Empire subsequent to 400 AD. Let us say that the Hellenism of Calabria underwent crisis in the 13th century and that the remnants known as Griko (now restricted to but a few speakers within two enclaves, Bovesina and Lecce) went into steady and near mortal decline as Romance became the lingua franca of the older populations.
 
"Modern Greek" is of course rooted to Koine as is Griko therefore the elementary comprehension in the present. The problem, however, is the tendency to project language as a sign of ethnicity, with all of its concurrent problematics particulalrly in forum discussions where the grinding of axes is a deletorius pastime. For example, your allusion to Taras (Taranto) [and its tell-tale Basilican Ware] in the Classical Age can not be projected forward on the basis of the brief declaration of Benjamin de Tudela, who wrote:
 
"After there (Colo di Bari) it is a day and a half to Taranto, in the government of Calabria, the inhabitants of which are Greek. It is a large city and contains about 300 Jews..."
 
The fact that the Emperor Manuel I Komnenos had launched his expedition against the Normans during the years 1155-1158 and established suzerainty there could just as easily explain the descriptive of the "inhabitants" being Greek.  As to their actual "ethnicity" such is another matter entirely; however, as to the context of language no one is arguing against the region's Hellenism within an urban environment.
 
As an aside, the internal evidence in the narrative prepared by Benjamin de Tudela, clearly fixes its date to the 12th century, prior to 1169 and after 1156. And nowhere did I argue against the Hellenistic character of urban life (within the parameters of the Eastern Roman Empire) of the far Southern Italian peninsula after the 6th century AD otherwise I would not have spoken of the 13th century "crisis".


Edited by drgonzaga - 24 Jan 2010 at 05:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2010 at 05:50
Flipper, if you desire farce by an appeal to recreationism you can go full steam ahead in Pinguin mode since he stated much the same in terms of Ladino, and posited an identical argument which goes against not only the utility of language but also enshrines a passion for conservation that defies logic and turns people into "museum" pieces. By the way, "modern" surnames within an European context surge forth around AD 1000 so to employ these as evidence of "ancient" roots becomes comical.
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 23 Jan 2010 at 05:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2010 at 20:47
ok, drgonzaga. When you feel to discuss again beyond a personal sphere (which is not my thing) i will be here. I made my point and believe me i had more of the obvious that you didn't want to see.
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