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Ancient meditteranean colonisation

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    Posted: 13 Jan 2010 at 08:04
 
In the ancient history of the meditteranean, especially the phoenicians and greeks, but also the romans, colonisation plays an important part. The ancient greeks wrote about the greek meditteranean world colonies as "frogs around a pond". But then one may wonder what "colonisation" really meant in this context. From my own rather limited knowledge, mainly about hellenistic foundations it seems  greek "city foundations" could cover very different realities, with moving of entire greek populations at the one end to mere changing of name at the other end.
Then one may ask how phenician and greek foundations were made earlier, in Sicily and southern italy, the Black Sea Region and North Africa (not least Karthago) and Spain. The works on general history I remember said very little about wether there was a general pattern or not. Examples: Were Karthagians in general or only some "elite" descendants of peoples from Tyrus, and were the overall culture purely phoenician or a mix with local traditions? A similar question could be asked for Neapolis, Massilia and countless greek foundations and even for the much later roman settlements, towns, and larger urbans centres outside Italy, and perhaps even genetic research could tell something(of course greeks, romans and phenicians were far from being the only people migrating ind the area between 1000 BCE and 500 CE. other waves of settlement could be more local, like the celtic or Galatian in western Asia Minor. Wether there are genetic traces in local populations or not I do not know)?
 


Edited by fantasus - 13 Jan 2010 at 08:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 22:14
As far as I know, most colonies were founded by Greek or Phoenician emigrants.
Most of the cities were in fact quite small, with a population of 4000-5000 people to start off with. They were merely trading posts established by merchants. I could also imagine that most of the colonists would have been male, so that many would have taken up native spouses. Nevertheless, the language and legal norms of the colonies would be that of the motherland.

Greek colonies were politically independent entities, but through trade they maintained contact with their cities of origin. Many colonists had actually been expelled from the motherland or convicted criminals running from the law.

As far as I know, genetic analysis does reveal a great degree of affinity between southern Italy and Greece, meaning that the number of Greek emigrants to the south of Italy must have been rather significant.


Edited by calvo - 14 Jan 2010 at 22:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 20:54
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

As far as I know, most colonies were founded by Greek or Phoenician emigrants.
Most of the cities were in fact quite small, with a population of 4000-5000 people to start off with. They were merely trading posts established by merchants. I could also imagine that most of the colonists would have been male, so that many would have taken up native spouses. Nevertheless, the language and legal norms of the colonies would be that of the motherland.

Greek colonies were politically independent entities, but through trade they maintained contact with their cities of origin. Many colonists had actually been expelled from the motherland or convicted criminals running from the law.

As far as I know, genetic analysis does reveal a great degree of affinity between southern Italy and Greece, meaning that the number of Greek emigrants to the south of Italy must have been rather significant.
Perhaps such knowledge could shed some light on cultural history in antiquity. And we may think there could be other places with significant greek and phoenician influence, including migrants as well, Especially some on the black sea coast, the Coast of Asia Minor and even other places in the near east part of hte Meditteranean (I have an impression western european historians may have a tendency to underestimate other directions of greek and other ancient influence relatively to the western european). One town I have read a bit about is "Antigoneia on the Orontes" - the forerunner of the famous Antiocheia in the northeast corner of Meditteranean. Some founding populations should have been about 5000 athenians(it is some years ago I came across that number as a by product of some study of hellenistic collonisation especially under the followers of Alexander).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 23:21
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

 
As far as I know, most colonies were founded by Greek or Phoenician emigrants.

As far as I know,genetic analysis does reveal a great degree of affinity between southern Italy and Greece, meaning that the number of Greek emigrants to the south of Italy must have been rather significant.
 
 
 
I agree.
 
We should not rule out Phoenician genetic imprint on both Greek & Italian populations.I have noticed a handful Lebanese could pass for these 2 Euro ethnicities ( particularly Greek female gender ).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 01:51
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

One town I have read a bit about is "Antigoneia on the Orontes" - the forerunner of the famous Antiocheia in the northeast corner of Meditteranean. Some founding populations should have been about 5000 athenians(it is some years ago I came across that number as a by product of some study of hellenistic collonisation especially under the followers of Alexander).


There is an ethnic group that still exists in small communities on the Black Sea coast in southern Ukraine and the Caucasus named "Pontic Greeks". They are known to be the descendants of the ancient Greek colonists that have lived there for thousands of years yet they still retained their language and culture.
Greeks also colonised Asia Minor and Egypt. Alexandria was a majority-Greek city throughout the antiquity. Most of what is Western Turkey had a large Greek-speaking population until the 20th century, when Greece and Turkey defined their boundaries and exchanged populations. Yet even today, Greek-speaking Muslim villages still survive in the north of Turkey.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 01:58
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
We should not rule out Phoenician genetic imprint on both Greek & Italian populations.I have noticed a handful Lebanese could pass for these 2 Euro ethnicities ( particularly Greek female gender ).


Don't think that Phoenicians ever had any colonies in Greece, as the Greeks were a seafaring nation themselves and rivals of the Phoenicians, therefore, I doubt that Phoenicians would have left any genetic imprint of Greeks.
The fact that they look alike wouldn't necesarily imply that they had mixed with each other in the past.
They did however build colonies in Italy and Spain. Venice and Genoa were both founded by Phoenicians. Yet the most influential Phoenician colony was Carthage, that later became an empire itself. Sometimes I tend to think that the relation between Phoenicia and Carthage is similar to that between the UK and the USA.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 04:50
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Don't think that Phoenicians ever had any colonies in Greece, as the Greeks were a seafaring nation themselves and rivals of the Phoenicians, therefore, I doubt that Phoenicians would have left any genetic imprint of Greeks.
 
Should we then "discount" the narrative evidence found in the story cycles known as the Perseid? After all, Perseus--the original hero of the Olympian saga--marries Andromeda (the Queen of Men), daughter of Cassiopea and Cepheus, monarchs of the Phoenician kingdom of Aetheopia (the land of burned faces) and hence become the ancestors of the Mycenaens.
 
There are grains of truth even in myth cycles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 07:54
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



 Venice and Genoa were both founded by Phoenicians.





Oh my goodness ...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 11:38
Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

 Venice and Genoa were both founded by Phoenicians.

Oh my goodness ...
 
And suffering succotash too!!!
 
There were no Phoenicians at Venice because in all probability there was no "land" where Venice sits today. Let's not go overboard folks. Recall the piffle Toynbee (Study of History, 8:704-707) tried to foist on the original Latins being "Sicilians". Stick to what can be established by sound archaeology and not the fancies extended forward about "Genua", "Ligurians", and Celts in 2000 BC!


Edited by drgonzaga - 17 Jan 2010 at 11:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 13:47
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



Don't think that Phoenicians ever had any colonies in Greece, as the Greeks were a seafaring nation themselves and rivals of the Phoenicians, therefore, I doubt that Phoenicians would have left any genetic imprint of Greeks.


 
 
Weren't the ancient Phoenicians also a seafaring people,could be cross migrations or interminglings between them.Small settlements ( stationed at trading posts ) not necessarily colonization.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 13:51
Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



 Venice and Genoa were both founded by Phoenicians.





Oh my goodness ...




Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#Important_cities_and_colonies

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 13:54
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



Don't think that Phoenicians ever had any colonies in Greece, as the Greeks were a seafaring nation themselves and rivals of the Phoenicians, therefore, I doubt that Phoenicians would have left any genetic imprint of Greeks.


 
 
Weren't the ancient Phoenicians also a seafaring people,could be cross migrations or interminglings between them.Small settlements ( stationed at trading posts ) not necessarily colonization.
 


While I do not doubt that some Phoenicians might have settled in Greece, there has been no historical records of Phoenician colonies in Greece. Therefore, Phoenicians could not have left any significant genetic imprint on the Greek population.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 13:59
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

 
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
 
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



Don't think that Phoenicians ever had any colonies in Greece, as the Greeks were a seafaring nation themselves and rivals of the Phoenicians, therefore, I doubt that Phoenicians would have left any genetic imprint of Greeks.


 
 
Weren't the ancient Phoenicians also a seafaring people,could be cross migrations or interminglings between them.Small settlements ( stationed at trading posts ) not necessarily colonization.
 

 

While I do not doubt that some Phoenicians might have settled in Greece, there has been no historical records of Phoenician colonies in Greece. Therefore, Phoenicians could not have left any significant genetic imprint on the Greek population.
 

 
 
That,I agree.
 
Whereas the Greeks and southern Italians are distant cousins.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPQR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 15:56
I've always found Greek colonization of Southern France(Marseilles area) and the Black sea coastline in the Crimea to be rather interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 18:40
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:

Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:



 Venice and Genoa were both founded by Phoenicians.





Oh my goodness ...




Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#Important_cities_and_colonies




Those are blatantly wrong, do you believe all wikish*t?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 19:59
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:


While I do not doubt that some Phoenicians might have settled in Greece, there has been no historical records of Phoenician colonies in Greece. Therefore, Phoenicians could not have left any significant genetic imprint on the Greek population.


There have been some Phoenician colonies but no significant ones. I remember that there are accounts about colonies in peloponesos and boiotia. However, i don't think the population was enough to leave traces. If we speak about Cyprus however, then yes, you have Greeks living side by side with Phoenicians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 20:16
Originally posted by pebbles pebbles wrote:

 
That,I agree.
 
Whereas the Greeks and southern Italians are distant cousins.
 


Southern Italian band "En Kardia" (meaning in the heart) sings in the Griko dialect of Southern Italy. Even though it has followed a different development than standard Greek and has an Italic rhythm, it is possible to understand it at a high extend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGoHBztHdJc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjSQGdGGl6o&feature=fvsr

The rite of the Taranta is believed to have been brought by the Greek settlers of Sicily.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLydylUHlU4




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 20:17
Originally posted by SPQR SPQR wrote:

I've always found Greek colonization of Southern France(Marseilles area) and the Black sea coastline in the Crimea to be rather interesting.


In Delphi, Marseilles had its own embassy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2010 at 04:08
Massalia, as with Syracusa, are interesting examples of transplantation and can not be viewed as "colonies" because they themselves enjoyed political autonomy and were not dependant upon the political "goings-on" of the original homeland. For example, Massalia established its own "colony" Ampurias in Iberia. However, how much can be made of settlement as a function of trade within a larger body politic and how far such conforms to the modern meaning of "colonization" is open to debate. Cultural influence is a far different phenomenon from actual supplanting of all that went before. Of course, with regard to Sicily it is a far harder supposition to maintain that it's Greekness is related to the 6th century BC and not to later intercourse from the 7th through the 9th centuries AD. For example Palermo has its roots in Phoenician expansion but whatever one finds of its "Greekness" is best explained as consequent to its role within the Eastern Roman Empire between the 6th and 10th centuries AD. So let us not go hog-wild with imaginary pedigrees. In many ways these arguments on Greekness or whatever are more the product of 19th century Romanticism and Nationalism, which made short-work of complex roots and actually ignored the intricacies of societies with far longer historical roots.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2010 at 05:11
drGonzaga can you please elaborate where in this topic the following applies?

"So let us not go hog-wild with imaginary pedigrees. In many ways these arguments on Greekness or whatever are more the product of 19th century Romanticism and Nationalism, which made short-work of complex roots and actually ignored the intricacies of societies with far longer historical roots. "

On the rest i can agree that transplantation is more appropriate term in certain cases.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2010 at 09:09
Flipper, the discussion began within the context of the 800 to 400 BC time line; hence the introduction of Griko as a relevant expression of this ancient period (in other words the continuation of Magna Graecia) is utterly wrong. Griko is "modern" Greek and reflective of the continued contact between Southern Italy and the "Byzantine" Empire subsequent to 400 AD. Let us say that the Hellenism of Calabria underwent crisis in the 13th century and that the remants known as Griko (now restricted to but a few speakers within two enclaves, Bovesina and Lecce) went into steady and near mortal decline as Romance became the lingua franca of the older populations. To posit Griko as the persistence of classical Greek is incorrect. That ethnic Greeks and Albanians did seek refuge in the West, together with the older Byzantine connections, is a clearer explanation of why you were able to understand En Kardia but then such is a folkloric recreation given that but few (some 2500 individuals) communicate in the language and much is consequent to sponsored socio-political efforts undertaken during the 70s.
 
Here's a summary:
 
 
In this instance one 19th century scholar, Giuseppe Morosi, got it right. Anyone familiar with late Hellenistic Greek would immediately scream Koine when they listen to the youtube example you provided.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2010 at 18:28
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Flipper, the discussion began within the context of the 800 to 400 BC time line; hence the introduction of Griko as a relevant expression of this ancient period (in other words the continuation of Magna Graecia) is utterly wrong. Griko is "modern" Greek and reflective of the continued contact between Southern Italy and the "Byzantine" Empire subsequent to 400 AD. Let us say that the Hellenism of Calabria underwent crisis in the 13th century and that the remants known as Griko (now restricted to but a few speakers within two enclaves, Bovesina and Lecce) went into steady and near mortal decline as Romance became the lingua franca of the older populations. To posit Griko as the persistence of classical Greek is incorrect. That ethnic Greeks and Albanians did seek refuge in the West, together with the older Byzantine connections, is a clearer explanation of why you were able to understand En Kardia but then such is a folkloric recreation given that but few (some 2500 individuals) communicate in the language and much is consequent to sponsored socio-political efforts undertaken during the 70s.
 
Here's a summary:
 
 
In this instance one 19th century scholar, Giuseppe Morosi, got it right. Anyone familiar with late Hellenistic Greek would immediately scream Koine when they listen to the youtube example you provided.


drgonzaga, i can accept romantic as a word but nationalism is a highly unpopular word in this forum. Nationalism would apply to a context where southern Italy would be suggested an autonomy in favor of Greek speakers, a victimization of the southern populations and the "evil italian state", territorial claim or generally a treatment of the issue ignoring the fact that Greeks are not native in Sicily. It would be nice to avoid linking peoples comments (that do not imply nationalistic thoughts) to such a negative epithet.

The 800BC timeline is not related to the language but to a custom.

My answer went to pebbles comment which applies even in the case of Byzantine settlements.

Now, nobody mentioned that "En Kardia" sings in the Greek spoken by the ancient Greek colonists of Sicily. Remember that Giuseppe Morosi (1870) links the current koine speech to a result of a Byzantine migration which indeed occurred. However, drgonzaga you cannot ignore the fact that Griko has several elements of a "Dorizousa" language that is not a result of "Byzantine" speech.

I will return later to this and explain exactly what i mean.




Edited by Flipper - 19 Jan 2010 at 01:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 06:37
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

drgonzaga, i can accept romantic as a word but nationalism is a highly unpopular word in this forum. Nationalism would apply to a context where southern Italy would be suggested an autonomy in favor of Greek speakers, a victimization of the southern populations and the "evil italian state", territorial claim or generally a treatment of the issue ignoring the fact that Greeks are not native in Sicily. It would be nice to avoid linking peoples comments (that do not imply nationalistic thoughts) to such a negative epithet.

The 800BC timeline is not related to the language but to a custom.

My answer went to pebbles comment which applies even in the case of Byzantine settlements.

Now, nobody mentioned that "En Kardia" sings in the Greek spoken by the ancient Greek colonists of Sicily. Remember that Giuseppe Morosi (1870) links the current koine speech to a result of a Byzantine migration which indeed occurred. However, drgonzaga you cannot ignore the fact that Griko has several elements of a "Dorizousa" language that is not a result of "Byzantine" speech.

I will return later to this and explain exactly what i mean.
 
Flipper, you can not discuss the 19th century without encountering the terminology that characterized its intellectual milieu. Regardless of contemporary taint, the term Nationalism is itself a neutral term within political idealisms. After all, you would have to rewrite all the history books that make reference to the emergence of Modern Europe and the consolidation of the Nation-State in an action that degenerates common sense into sticklish sensibilities. You may argue the Rolf-Hatzidakis thesis of the Doric remnant as an antithesis to Morosi, but the fact no counterpart is found in other areas of the same region whose roots are firmly in the historical panorama of Magna Graecia militates otherwise. The fact that similar "Doric" markers persisted in the Aegean, including Crete and Rhodes, into modern times and that these islands were integrally connected not only with Sicily but the Kingdom of Naples as well during the Medieval and Early Modern periods casts heavy doubts on the claims of purported ancient roots.
 
Now with regard to current politics and the sudden urge to establish "separateness" on the basis of what can only be described as pseudo-uniqueness then welcome to contemporary Italian politics and the long established tensions between North and South. Other than that the continued affinity between the inhabitants of Southern Italy with the trans-Adriatic coast is a long-established phenomenon. The fact that the Italian surname Albanese (Sp. Albanez) survives to this very day is witness to this continued contact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 09:17
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

You may argue the Rolf-Hatzidakis thesis of the Doric remnant as an antithesis to Morosi, but the fact no counterpart is found in other areas of the same region whose roots are firmly in the historical panorama of Magna Graecia militates otherwise. The fact that similar "Doric" markers persisted in the Aegean, including Crete and Rhodes, into modern times and that these islands were integrally connected not only with Sicily but the Kingdom of Naples as well during the Medieval and Early Modern periods casts heavy doubts on the claims of purported ancient roots.
 
Now with regard to current politics and the sudden urge to establish "separateness" on the basis of what can only be described as pseudo-uniqueness then welcome to contemporary Italian politics and the long established tensions between North and South. Other than that the continued affinity between the inhabitants of Southern Italy with the trans-Adriatic coast is a long-established phenomenon. The fact that the Italian surname Albanese (Sp. Albanez) survives to this very day is witness to this continued contact.


First of all, i did not provide an antithesis to Morosis view. I know very well he is correct in what he says, but not exclusively. I find both Morosis and the Rolf-Hatzidakis school views equally acceptable as a combination. The reason why othe southern Italian regions did not have a counterpart is because the specific areas of interest received a boost during medieval times.

Second of all, i don't need Morosi nor Rolf nor Hatzidakis (+ later authors) to make a conclusion. That's the big difference drgonzaga. I just need to read, listen and compare.

Third, one side of my family is from the region where the idiom known as Propontis Tsakonian  developed. Both idioms had enough time to equally develop and are indeed similar to some extend, but Propontis Tsakonian sounds rather modern compared to Griko.

Fourth, I have a book of Erotokritus next to me here. Would you like to compare the speech of Candia with Griko and see what Cretans could have contributed to it? Except the characteristic diphthongs, the Aegean - South Italian link will not explain archaisms nor the Doric elements of Griko. Unless you suggest that half of Carpathos moved to Italy...But even that, would not be enough probably.

Now have a look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9db1IHU-zs

In 3:15 the old man says in Griko "we continue to speak it, because it is our history, our ancient language".

Now, you know that Morosis view is not the only one. No matter where you look, there are numerous books on the subject! Why do you stick to 1 author from 1870, when you can read updates on the matter written 10-15 years ago? If that view was the absolute one, we wouldn't still discuss it, would we? Ok, it is a matter of choise and opinion in the end, but allow me to say that what i hear in Griko is not just a byzantine idiom and that is what i personally experience.






Edited by Flipper - 19 Jan 2010 at 09:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2010 at 07:36
Now, you know that Morosis view is not the only one. No matter where you look, there are numerous books on the subject! Why do you stick to 1 author from 1870, when you can read updates on the matter written 10-15 years ago? If that view was the absolute one, we wouldn't still discuss it, would we? Ok, it is a matter of choise and opinion in the end, but allow me to say that what i hear in Griko is not just a byzantine idiom and that is what i personally experience.
 
Flipper, we are discussing it because contemporary politics is trying to rationalize a pedigree for purposes that are in many ways culturally suspect and actually frustrate the modern development of a region. It would be akin to giving privileged status for the continued use of DOS while the rest of the world is in Windows 7. Only a dedicated antiquarian--or obtuse anthropologists--would find these games of interest. Sure, I find music played and sung in old Provencal fascinating, but I would not go around demanding "political protection" of what is essentially a dead dialect. The Israelis play this game knowing full well that its populations are essentially English speakers no matter all the blather about "modern Hebrew". Wiki may love such obscurantisms--as with their incessant creation of such things as "Neapolitan" language and whatever--but give everybody a break here, success in the greater "world" depends upon integration and not segregation through false illusions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2010 at 06:45

Hi guys.

On the issue of Greco in south Italia. The language and the "Greco" presence today there hasn't anything to do with the 15-16th centuries of Greek(along with Albanian) refugees from south Greece. This small for the Greek population, and more important for the Arbereshe one, movement hadn't left any sign in the next centuries, because either those Greeks who migrated did it in northern parts of Italy, like Toscany and Venezia, or assimilated by the Arbereshe majority, hence the many Greek surnames amongst them (Macri, Logoteta, Foca, Paleologo, Lascari, Cefala etc etc).

The Greek presence iin the medieval period is documented, and can be also shown by the onomatology of the area of Sicily which is more than full of Greek surnames and toponyms. A very interesting book, that you can find very interesting information, is the Lessico Greco della Sicilia e dell'Italia Meridionale (secoli X-XIV) by Girolamo Caracausi. You can look this list too (1) (2) based on Caracausi's book.

And the Greek presence there despite the very strong Latin influence didn't have any break, giving also three Popes(Pope Agatho,John VII, Zachary) in 7th and 8th centuries.

Till at lest the 14th century the Greek presence was strong, but the Norman conquest and its attachment to Pope, played an important role in the latinazation of the population. Marino Sanudo(c. 1260 – 1338) in his "Istoria del regno di Romania sive regno di Morea" writes :

"There are also many Greeks in Calabria and in the area of Otranto, who are under the Holy Church of Rome, but are not so devoted as they would be if the Emperor and Patriarch of Konstantinoupolis and the son of this emperor, kyr Andronikos, were also devoted and faithful to the Church of Rome, and not insubordinate, fact with serious consequences...."


About the Greek colonization there is a must book "An inventory of Archaic and Classical Poleis", Mogens Herman Hansen and Thomas Heine Nielsen,  where they describe concisely about the 1400 pages almost all the Greek poleis, including of course the two major ones, in Magna Grecia and Minor Asia.

In Sicily the Phoenicians with the coming of Greeks were reduced to their three colonies in the extreme west of the island, Motya, Soloeis and Panormos(Thuc. 6.2.6). In contrast to Phoenicians Greeks didn't establish only "emporia" but colonized in big numbers these areas, analogous of the first Greek colonization of Minor Asia, about 3-4 centuries before the second(the one to south Italy and Sicilia).

And many of the cities weren't average in population and size. Imera for example, is estimated to have about 30.000 inhabitants in 5th century.

Another example, Katane. In 476 Hieron transfered the population of Katane and Naxos(the most old Greek colony, ca. 8th cent.) to Leontinoi, renaming Katane as Aitna and brought also 5.000 Peloponnesians and 5.000 Syracuseans(Diod. 11.49.2). Syracuse, one of the biggest cities, according to Drogemuller (1969)(Syrakus: Zur Topographie und Geschichte einer griechischen Stadt) , had about 40-45.000 thousands urban population. The catalog if we continue with the rest Sicily and south Italy is endless.

The importance of Magna Grecia's Hellenism for the whole Greek world is well understandable of the great amount of personalties  much influential and significant for Greek civilization, fact that made the Athenian great rhetor Isocrates to encourage Dionysios II of Syracuce to "be τὸν πρωτεύ-
οντα τοῦ γένους"- the leader of the nation "ὑπὲρ τῆς τῶν Ἑλλήνων σωτηρίας"-for Greeks' salvation...referring to the campaign against the Persians, in which finally Macedonians played that role.







Edited by Patrinos - 22 Jan 2010 at 07:03
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Welcome Patrinos, good to have you back!
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Originally posted by Patrinos Patrinos wrote:

On the issue of Greco in south Italia. The language and the "Greco" presence today there hasn't anything to do with the 15-16th centuries of Greek (along with Albanian) refugees from south Greece. This small for the Greek population, and more important for the Arbereshe one, movement hadn't left any sign in the next centuries, because either those Greeks who migrated did it in northern parts of Italy, like Toscany and Venezia, or assimilated by the Arbereshe majority, hence the many Greek surnames amongst them (Macri, Logoteta, Foca, Paleologo, Lascari, Cefala etc etc).
 
The Greek presence iin the medieval period is documented, and can be also shown by the onomatology of the area of Sicily which is more than full of Greek surnames and toponyms. A very interesting book, that you can find very interesting information,  is the Lessico Greco della Sicilia e dell'Italia Meridionale (secoli X-XIV) by Girolamo Caracausi. You can look this list too (1) (2) based on Caracausi's book.

And the Greek presence there despite the very strong Latin influence didn't have any break, giving also three Popes(Pope Agatho,John VII, Zachary) in 7th and 8th centuries.

Till at lest the 14th century the Greek presence was strong, but the Norman conquest and its attachment to Pope, played an important role in the latinazation of the population. Marino Sanudo(c. 1260 – 1338) in his "Istoria del regno di Romania sive regno di Morea" writes :

"There are also many Greeks in Calabria and in the area of Otranto, who are under the Holy Church of Rome, but are not so devoted as they would be if the Emperor and Patriarch of Konstantinoupolis and the son of this emperor, kyr Andronikos, were also devoted and faithful to the Church of Rome, and not insubordinate, fact with serious consequences...."


About the Greek colonization there is a must book "An inventory of Archaic and Classical Poleis", Mogens Herman Hansen and Thomas Heine Nielsen,  where they describe concisely about the 1400 pages almost all the Greek poleis, including of course the two major ones, in Magna Grecia and Minor Asia.

In Sicily the Phoenicians with the coming of Greeks were reduced to their three colonies in the extreme west of the island, Motya, Soloeis and Panormos(Thuc. 6.2.6). In contrast to Phoenicians Greeks didn't establish only "emporia" but colonized in big numbers these areas, analogous of the first Greek colonization of Minor Asia, about 3-4 centuries before the second (the one to south Italy and Sicilia).

And many of the cities weren't average in population and size. Imera for example, is estimated to have about 30.000 inhabitants in 5th century.

Another example, Katane. In 476 Hieron transfered the population of Katane and Naxos(the most old Greek colony, ca. 8th cent.) to Leontinoi, renaming Katane as Aitna and brought also 5.000 Peloponnesians and 5.000 Syracuseans (Diod. 11.49.2). Syracuse, one of the biggest cities, according to Drogemuller (1969)(Syrakus: Zur Topographie und Geschichte einer griechischen Stadt), had about 40-45.000 thousands urban population. The catalog if we continue with the rest Sicily and south Italy is endless.

The importance of Magna Grecia's Hellenism for the whole Greek world is well understandable of the great amount of personalties  much influential and significant for Greek civilization, fact that made the Athenian great rhetor Isocrates to encourage Dionysios II of Syracuce to "be τὸν πρωτεύ-
οντα τοῦ γένους"- the leader of the nation "ὑπὲρ τῆς τῶν Ἑλλήνων σωτηρίας"-for Greeks' salvation...referring to the campaign against the Persians, in which finally Macedonians played that role.

If we are to venture into onomasty and then transfer that data into ethnic markers we create as many problems as we solve with regard to Sicily and Southern Italy. For example Caracausi also prepared a similar study with regard to the Arab period: Arabismi medievali di Sicilia (1983). Not that Caracausi did not have a predecessor and with specifics to Calabria: Giovanni Alessio. Saggio di toponamistica calabrese (Firenze: Olschki, 1939). Nor are we to assume that Caracausi was asserting a thesis of Greek predominance projected from linguistics since he explained that perspective in his essay "Stratificazione della toponomastica Siciliana" in Edoardo Vineis, ed. La toponomastica como fonte do conoscenza storica e linguistica. Pisa: Giardini, 1981., pp. 107-144. In fact a proper reading of Caracausi can only be garnered from his masterly Dizionario onomastico della Sicilia (2v. Palermo: CSFLS, 1993). Both interpretative process and bibliography is extensive not only in terms of regionalisms but historical developments as well, and a bibliography for further study is available on-line as maintained by the Laboratorio Internazionale di Onomastica:
 
 
But, what is baffling in this search for Greeks is the assumpton that Southern Italy was tabula rasa as far as human habitation is concerned. If you do know your history then names such as Enotria, Opicia and Messapia should come as no surprise and their total disregard is a bit too convenient. Hence, if we are to discuss the subject properly clear delineations and parameters have to be set, for example a term such as Magna Grecia has a historical context since it represents the name utilized by Dyonisius for his political pretensions in the 3rd century BC, which was definitely squelched by the Romans at Taranto in 272 BC. This as well as many other problems that posit the southern reaches of the Italian peninsula as an ethnic Greek enclave irrespective of both original populations and the natural divide between the urban and rural environs of the Mediterranean as a whole leads to misconceptions further colored by contemporary pretensions. Of course as any contemporary Sicilian might tell you, they are the real heirs of Ancient Greece, those others are only Turks!Evil Smile
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 22 Jan 2010 at 20:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2010 at 02:42

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Welcome Patrinos, good to have you back!

Hi, i've checked once in a while the things here, and i hope good old sparky days return...(even i haven't yet understood what happened and why we had a split...)


drgonzaga,starting from your last sentence...who are these "others"...Greeks?!? Any contemporary Sicilian or South Italian should be proud of the their ancient and byzantine Greek tradition, without meaning that Greece has to do anything with that...i mean, speaking as Balkanian....you know...

I haven't really understood what are you trying to say about South Italy and Sicelia. I think it can't be disputed that it had a continuous Greek massive presence from the beginning of the colonization by 7th cent. BC to at least 13-14th, being not only in great extent hellenophone but also orthodox( well at least following greek byzantine right).

The numbers in the sources show a massive migration, not small powerful trade communities hence and the hellenization of the local pre Greek population. We cannot see the presence of Hellenism there judging from the small grecophone comminity there today, which is limited in small geographical areas, of much small size and dispersion than even ,lets say, 7-8 centuries back {for example Tarantas(Taranto) a city that in classical age,in 4th cent.BC, had a citizen population of about 100.000 (see the source in my previous post, Hansen), in 12-13th century retained its Greek character(see Benjamin of Tudela Itinerary)}.

And i suppose you made a mistake by relating the mutual understanding of the "griko" language today by Greece's Greeks, because of 15th century migrations... if you've read something of the books that you nicely quoted you would have such idea...!



Edited by Patrinos - 23 Jan 2010 at 02:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2010 at 03:30
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Now, you know that Morosis view is not the only one. No matter where you look, there are numerous books on the subject! Why do you stick to 1 author from 1870, when you can read updates on the matter written 10-15 years ago? If that view was the absolute one, we wouldn't still discuss it, would we? Ok, it is a matter of choise and opinion in the end, but allow me to say that what i hear in Griko is not just a byzantine idiom and that is what i personally experience.
 
Flipper, we are discussing it because contemporary politics is trying to rationalize a pedigree for purposes that are in many ways culturally suspect and actually frustrate the modern development of a region.



Specify which contemporary politics and how do they "frustrate the modern development of a region"? I cannot understand how a group of Southern Italians with Greek background and dialect could realistically  "frustrate the modern development" of the region. Confused

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


It would be akin to giving privileged status for the continued use of DOS while the rest of the world is in Windows 7.


If what you say is true, then lets change english to Russian. Why use English when you have a rich language like Russian?

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Only a dedicated antiquarian--or obtuse anthropologists--would find these games of interest. Sure, I find music played and sung in old Provencal fascinating, but I would not go around demanding "political protection" of what is essentially a dead dialect.


Nobody asked anyone for political protection. Italy does a good job with these communities. Basically, noone in this forum mentioned anything about political protection nor implyed something like that,

Also, last year there was a summit in Nevada if i remember well, where linguists gathered to talk about "endangered languages". Obviously, there are more than some antiquarian and obtuse anthropologists that care about such things.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


If we are to venture into onomasty and then transfer that data into ethnic markers we create as many problems as we solve with regard to Sicily and Southern Italy


I don't think so...Because when you see a surname like agrappidas you certainly wonder when was the last time you saw that ending instead of -idis and what kind of background such endings have. I'll tell you where...In names like Charopidas - Philippidas (Epirus), Deinippidas - Nikippidas - Gorgippidas - Kallippidas (Laconia).

From the list Patrinos posted one can tell there's a big list of neo-Greek epithets but one can not ignore either that names like the aforementioned plus Agrachtas, Asphodilas, Abersas (Abertas) and others are not modern ones.

As said before, when someone that has some basic knowledge in pre-Hellenistic Greek hears Griko he or she can tell that indeed it is a development of Koine but damn, he or she would never miss that there's something there that is not part of what we know as Koine. Today, 140 years after the book you selectively mentioned - you have works of newer authors that have re-examined the matter and have drawn conclusions that combine all previous theories.


Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


But, what is baffling in this search for Greeks is the assumpton that Southern Italy was tabula rasa as far as human habitation is concerned.


In search for Greeks? Is there any reason to search to find some? And who said about "tabula rasa" in this thread?

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


This as well as many other problems that posit the southern reaches of the Italian peninsula as an ethnic Greek


Again, those are your conclusions and they are not taken from this thread, unless you have missunderstood anyone. Since the beginning of this discussion I said "...generally a treatment of the issue ignoring the fact that Greeks are not native in Sicily".

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Of course as any contemporary Sicilian might tell you, they are the real heirs of Ancient Greece, those others are only Turks!Evil Smile


Are you really sure drgonzaga that that's what they are saying in their websites, newspappers and videos? Embarrassed


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