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ANCIENT SCYTHIAN'S BELT BAG

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Joze View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 Nov 2009 at 20:30
Hi  friends   of  Archaeology!  Sorry   for  my    bad   english,   hope   you    will   understand   me:
I   am  Joze from  Slowenia and   my   big   interess are the Eu   Celts (iron   age) -   but i   like all   Themes   of   the    Past. I   am member   of   Austrian   rennacment   Celtic Group called   Boii  Pannonia.  We   make a   lot   of   historical   festivals  in   MI  Europe.
I   am   member  of  two   German's web   Forums and   in   one  of   them   we   had    very    hard   debate   about archaeological evidence about  (ancient) belt    bag. IN   Europe  we   don't  know   any item  of  them   from   ancient time,  but   i   found in   my   book  about  the Scythians a   foto  of the famous Gold  Man   from   Issyk -   he   had  unther  his   coat    on   his   belt   a   balt    bag,   decorated   with    golden ornaments.
I   am   very   interested about more   informations aboput  this  Golden   Man    from   Issyk's belt    bag: any    evidence   what did the man   had  in   his    belt    bag, how   big    was   the belt    bag,     who    make   the   replika of  this belt    bag?   I wrote   to  the Museum's   Director of  National  State Museum  of   Altay -   where the   Mumiie   of   the    Goldlen   Man   is,   but   till   now    i   didn't    get   the    answer.
 
Hope   somebody   can    help   me.
 
 
If anybody    needs some   information   from   Europe   Ancient  Time  - will    help    you.
 
This    forum    here   is   great -  i  like   it!
 
Sory   about   my bad    english.
 
(@Knight:  i   found   "the  Way"    here,   thank   you!)
 
Best    regards,  Joze
Best regards!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2009 at 20:33
Originally posted by Joze Joze wrote:

Hi  friends   of  Archaeology!  Sorry   for  my    bad   english,   hope   you    will   understand   me:
I   am  Joze from  Slowenia and   my   big   interess are the Eu   Celts (iron   age) -   but i   like all   Themes   of   the    Past. I   am member   of   Austrian   rennacment   Celtic Group called   Boii  Pannonia.  We   make a   lot   of   historical   festivals  in   MI  Europe.
I   am   member  of  two   German's web   Forums and   in   one  of   them   we   had    very    hard   debate   about archaeological evidence about  (ancient) belt    bag. In   Europe  we   don't  know   any item  of  them   from   ancient time,  but   i   found in   my   book  about  the Scythians a   foto  of the famous Gold  Man   from   Issyk -   he   had  under  his   coat    on   his   belt  on  the   left   side  a   balt    bag,   decorated   with    golden ornaments.
I   am   very   interested about more   informations aboput  this  Golden   Man    from   Issyk's belt    bag: any    evidence   what did the man   had  in   his    belt    bag, how   big    was   the belt    bag,     who    make   the   replika of  this belt    bag?   I wrote   to  the Museum's   Director of  National  State Museum  of   Altay -   where the   Mumiie   of   the    Goldlen   Man   is,   but   till   now    i   didn't    get   the    answer.
 
Hope   somebody   can    help   me.
 
 
If anybody    needs some   information   from   Europe   Ancient  Time  - will    help    you.
 
This    forum    here   is   great -  i  like   it!
 
Sory   about   my bad    english.
 
(@Knight:  i   found   "the  Way"    here,   thank   you!)
 
Best    regards,  Joze
Best regards!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2009 at 20:34
Originally posted by Joze Joze wrote:

Originally posted by Joze Joze wrote:

Hi  friends   of  Archaeology!  Sorry   for  my    bad   english,   hope   you    will   understand   me:
I   am  Joze from  Slowenia and   my   big   interess are the Eu   Celts (iron   age) -   but i   like all   Themes   of   the    Past. I   am member   of   Austrian   rennacment   Celtic Group called   Boii  Pannonia.  We   make a   lot   of   historical   festivals  in   MI  Europe.
I   am   member  of  two   German's web   Forums and   in   one  of   them   we   had    very    hard   debate   about archaeological evidence about  (ancient) belt    bag. In   Europe  we   don't  know   any item  of  them   from   ancient time,  but   i   found in   my   book  about  the Scythians a   foto  of the famous Golden  Man   from   Issyk -   he   had  under  his   coat    on   his   belt  on  the   left   side  a   balt    bag,   decorated   with    golden ornaments.
I   am   very   interested about more   informations aboput  this  Golden   Man    from   Issyk's belt    bag: any    evidence   what did the man   had  in   his    belt    bag, how   big    was   the belt    bag,     who    make   the   replika of  this belt    bag?   I wrote   to  the Museum's   Director of  National  State Museum  of   Altay -   where the   Mumiie   of   the    Golden   Man   is,   but   till   now    i   didn't    get   the    answer.
 
Hope   somebody   can    help   me.
 
 
If anybody    needs some   information   from   Europe   Ancient  Time  - will    help    you.
 
This    forum    here   is   great -  i  like   it!
 
Sory   about   my bad    english.
 
(@Knight:  i   found   "the  Way"    here,   thank   you!)
 
Best    regards,  Joze
Best regards!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2009 at 20:39

Hi!

Hope  nobody    will   be   angry  - i   have  Problems  with   writing   here  (i    don't   understand   the   funktions  of   Forum)
 
But about   my   Theme i    really    would  like    to     get   more   informations.
 
Best    regards,
 
Joze
Best regards!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2009 at 07:20
Hi Joze,
 
Welcome to All Empires !
 
I have tried to search for the information about Golden Man's belt bag in available Russian internet sources.  But, unfortunately, I found nothing. Unhappy
 
It seems that it didn't play such an important role in archeologists' opinion. Unhappy
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drgonzaga View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2009 at 09:22
Belated curiosity over the the 1969 find--as associated with the ancient "Scythians"--has been on-going ever since the publication of this query in the September 1997 issue of Archaeology:
 
 
A good tool for sating your curiosity is the Center for the Study of the Eurasian Nomad, which maintains an on-line presence:
 
 
Here's a tantalizing tidbit:
 
 
Good hunting and perhaps you should inquire with Dr. Davis-Kimball.
 
Here are other links:
 
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 17 Nov 2009 at 09:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 01:27
Hi to   all!
Thank    you    for good    welcome -   i   am   glad    to     comunnicate  about    archaeology  with   you   from   all   of   tre    world.
Thank    you -   you   are  not   "angry"    becouse  i posted   many    textes  (my   opinion   was  to   corrigate mthe    mistakes in  my   texts   and   i put   the  "cuotted"    textes   back,   was    wrong)
Thank   you   for   the answer,   too.
I   know   the   CSEN -  i   was  in   Conntact   with  Mis.   Jeanine  (Adim/Modi   of   SCEN   Web   Site). I    found    4   Pages   of   links    about  Nomadic  Steppe's Horsewarriors   and some   others   of   the  frosen   mummies.  But specially   i   would  like    to  know   more    about Scythian's belt    bags/ Golden  Man   from   Issyk   and   his   belt    bag. I  know - usually the  belt     bags were for   the   mirrors   and   toillete "staff" (?) - but what   was  the   reason  of  the belt    bag   of   the  Golden    man   i   don't  know what   he    had   in  his    belt    bag  inside.   I   sow  the    foto   of   the orig.   grawe i   mean   the   mummy   of   the  Golden  Man   but there i    can't    see  if the     man    had    somenthing on   his  left   side   of   his    body.
I    have a    foto   of   the    replica  of  this    belt     bag but this   is  all   what    i    have   about  that. Would   like  to    get   more   informations -    also of    some  others   simmilar ancient   belt     bags by   another coultures.
I    sad  yesterday -  in the    same  time    we   don't   know   in   Europe   for/about   simmilar   belt    bags.
 
Best    regards,   Joze
Best regards!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 01:48
Originally posted by Joze Joze wrote:

I  know - usually the  belt     bags were for   the   mirrors   and   toillete "staff" (?) - but what   was  the   reason  of  the belt    bag   of   the  Golden    man   i   don't  know what   he    had   in  his    belt    bag  inside.  
 
In fact, it's very likely that "Golden man" also had this antique cosmetique. "The Golden man," actually, seems to be a "Golden Women." I believe many archeologists are inclined to think that. I know that they found a mirror and other typical Saka women apparel in his (or better to say her) kurgan. Also, the clothes seem to be typical for Saka noble women. It's also interesting that the hat of "golden man" is almost identical to the traditional bridal hat of Kazakhs, called saukele.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 02:00
Hi!
Yes - there   are many    studies,  they suggest    the Golden   Man    wasn't   be    a    man -  he    was a woman  (the clothes, the    had,   etc ...) but  this   mummy is still  "known"   as   the Golden   Man   from   Issyk. (that's   why    i    speak   aboaut a man)
 
I    have   no informations   what   kind   of    cosmetique (mirror?) had this Golden  Man -   specially  in   his   belt     bag.  I    would  like     to    get   the   orig.  study  of his kurghan   and   this   grawe.
 
Regards,   Joze
Best regards!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 02:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 03:29
Here is a listing of famous kurg[h]ans:
 
1. The Ipatovo kurgan. A long sequence of burials from the Maykop culture ca. 4000 BC down to the burial of a Sarmatian princess of the 3rd century BC, excavated in 1998–1999.

2. Kutuluk Kurgan 4 at Kutuluk near Samara, dated to ca. 24th century BC, contains the skeleton of a man, estimated to have been 35 to 40 years old and about 152 cm tall. Rose, M., " DisplayLink("http://www.archaeology.org/0203/newabriefs/cudgel.html", "Cudgel Culture") Cudgel Culture", , Archaeology , March/April, 2002. Resting on the skeleton's bent left elbow was a copper object 65 cm long with a blade of a diamond-shaped cross-section and sharp edges, but no point, and a handle, originally probably wrapped in leather. No similar object is known from Bronze Age Eurasian steppe cultures, and the object has been compared to the vajra a Sanskrit word meaning both thunderbolt and diamond. As a material device, the vajra is a short metal weapon that has the symbolic nature of a diamond and that of the thunderbolt ....

3.  The Maikop kurgan, excavated by Nikolay Veselovsky in 1897 near Maikop, Adygeja, Kuban, Southern Russia, is the eponym of the Early Bronze Age Maikop culture of the Northern Caucasus in the 3rd millennium BC.

4. Novovelichkovskaya kurgan of ca. 2000 BC on the Ponura River, Krasnodar region of southern Russia, containing the remains of 11 people, including an embracing couple, buried with bronze tools, stone carvings, jewelry, and ceramic vessels decorated with red ocher. The tomb is associated with the Novotitorovka culture, 3300—2700 BC, a Bronze Age society of the South Caucasus immediately to the north of and largely overlapping portions of the Maykop culture facing the Sea of Azov, running from the Kerch Strait eastwards, almost to the Caspian, roughly coterminous with the modern Krasnodar Krai region of Russia.

5. Issyk kurgan
The Issyk kurgan, in south-eastern Kazakhstan, less than 20 km east from the Talgar alluvial fan, near Issyk, is a burial mound discovered in 1969
in southern Kazakhstan containing a skeleton, possibly female, ca. 4th century BC, with an inscribed silver cup, with gold ornaments, with Scythian animal art objects and headdress reminiscent of Kazakh bridal hats, discovered in 1969.
 
6. Kurgan 11 of the Berel cemetery, in the Bukhtarma River valley of Kazakhstan, containing a tomb of ca. 300 BC, with a dozen sacrificed horses, preserved with their skin, hair, harnesses, and saddles intact, buried side by side on a bed of birch bark next to a funeral chamber containing the pillaged burial of two Scythian nobles, excavated in 1998.
 
7. Ryzhanovka kurgan, a 10 metre high kurgan 125 km south of Kiev containing the tomb of a Scythian chieftain, 3rd century BC, excavated in 1996.

8. Solokha kurgan, another site in the Ukrain, Scythian, early 4th century BC.

9. Thracian Tomb of Kazanlak
The Thracian Tomb of Kazanlak is a vaulted brickwork "beehive" tomb near the town of Kazanlak in central Bulgaria.The tomb is part of a large Thracians necropolis
, dating from the 4th century BC.
 
10. The Aleksandrovo kurgan and the Tomb of Svestahari
The Aleksandrovo tomb is a Thracian burial mound and tomb excavated near Aleksandrovo, South-Eastern Bulgaria, dated to circa 4th century BC.
The Thracian Tomb of Sveshtari is situated 2,5 kilometre southwest of the village of Sveshtari, a Thracian kurgan of ca. the 3rd century BC.


Courtesy of http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Kurgan

One could also throw in the Nordic Bronze age burial mounds, however since none of these aew coeval to the those listed above, relationships would be tenuous unless one also included the 7th century AD Bulgar mounds.  Unfortunately, the WWW is a poor medium through which to access the scientific literature given the propensity of the wacky sites from astrology to wicca that mark the pseudo-science of New Agers.

Edited by drgonzaga - 18 Nov 2009 at 03:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 03:59
Hi!
Thank   you -  but   i    am   looking    for archaeological   orig.    study-report,   or  dokument   like   this   here:
 
 
A  "short"   abstract   WWW    documents   i    found    many    many   about  the Golden    Man and   about   simillary  themes.
 
or   this    here:
 
and theme on   forum here:
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/13719-scythian-warrior-mummy-found-in-mongolia/
 
I    have  more   than 4   sites of the URL links   about the   Scythians   but  i   am   looking   just  (only)  detailed  informations   about   replika   and   orig.   artifact of  the    Golden   Man   belt    bag.   His    belt    bag    was   quadratical   formed:  for quadratical   mirror?  I    don'd   know   it.
 
Regards,  Joze
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 05:55
I posted that link because you were asking for some information about the mirror and it had some information about the mirror.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2009 at 16:43
Hi!
Yes -  no   problems! :))
I    have   informations   about Altay women's mummies (princess) - they had a   mirrors in   her pouches,   hanged on  her    belt. But The Golden    Man had   a   quadratical belt   bag -   this  is   not   the    same   item.   Bag    and   the    pouches   is   not   the    same. And  on  the    foto of   the   mummie of The Golden  Man in  his   grawe  -  i    don't    see his   mirror on   the    place of   his     belt    bag -   that's what   i   am   lokking for   more    informations   about this    fact. I   am   looking     for more  informations   of   his    belt     bag.
 
Regards,  Joze
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2009 at 19:26
Hi!
Here one report   about Arzhan kurghan&grawe:
 
Regards,   Joze
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 23:14
Hy!   Well,   it   was   very   hard,  but  i   found   the museum   where is  the  Golden   Man   from   Issyk.  I   wrote  to  the   museum   and  to   the   University  of   Kazakhstan  about  this belt  bag.
 
Here:
 
I  am    seartching the  book about  the archaeological  excavations of  the  Issyk   kurghan (the data   i   have   about the book,  read the  link)
 
regards from Slowenia,  Joze
Best regards!
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