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Anti-gringo music: no captions

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 12:36
Still today, we call Spain the Motherland. Without forgetting our local origins as well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 19:26

Spain was the main conqueror/coloniser of the Americas, but I fail to see it was because they were more "qualified" or less "alien" than anybody else from other continents. Most european nationalities and states played little or no role in the Americas, except as immigrants. The British, Spanish and Portugese were the main exceptions, though the French, Dutch and Russians had some lesser undertakings.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 19:35
And once more: Location and historical factors, rather than any special "cultural qualities" made the difference between the big colonisers and those who had little to do in the Americas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 02:29
Pinguino, music is hardly a valid barometer of where people will vote. I say 'will vote' because music may represent an emotion that they share with others, and intensely feel at specific events or stages of their lives, but people usually use their heads before casting votes that will impact their lives. And when they don't, they end up damaging their own welfare.

Mexicans resent having to go through the legal hurdles of entering the United States, but they themselves are hardly liberal when it comes to refugees from Central America. Remember that scene in the truck in the movie 'El Norte', when the two Guatemalans, having hitched a ride aftyer crossing the border into Mexico, are cursing away in what they feel is Mexican Spanish, with lots of 'chingadas' peppered in, and the truck driver looks at them with a big smile and says: "Hey, you're from Guatemala too!"

Many self-described members of the intellectual elite in Latin America take pains to dislike the 'gringos' and the U.S., simply because our existence is further proof that their own systems fell behind, and remain there. If the French had won at Quebec, and had found the population to people the Mississippi River valley, making the present USA a Francophone nation, they would still feel pangs of inferiority to us.

The sad truth about illegal immigration is that it represents millions of people voting with their feet. And what they are saying is that no matter how much better their countries look now, there are still major barriers to socio-economic integration, and that the very best economic solutions their countries could come up with are vastly inferior to that available to their poorer class of citizens in the U.S., even as illegals.

Prior to the earthquake, your own country had achieved first world economic status. If you wish to maintain that status, you will have to be led by people with first world mentalities. Anti-'Tio Sam" emotionalism is best left to third world wannabe intellectuals living off the sweat of those very working class stiffs who often throw in the towel and point their toes northwards.  Otherwise, it will be a third century of solitude for Macumboland.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 03:31
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


Many self-described members of the intellectual elite in Latin America take pains to dislike the 'gringos' and the U.S., simply because our existence is further proof that their own systems fell behind, and remain there.


That's baloney. Many people in the region hates 'gringos' simply because Americans have been the cause of many deads and trouble in Latin America. Don't forget that. Civil wars, invasions, intervention in internal affairs, the School of the Americas, robbing a province and create a contry to just build a channel on it, etc. etc. etc. The list is endless.


Edited by pinguin - 26 Jan 2011 at 03:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 04:31
To be fair to Pinguin, the U.S. did a horrible wrong to Chile in the 70s. And the U.S. also supported for a while the Argentinian junta, and taught torture techniques to Central and South American.

However, the U.S. hasn't been that influential in Mexico during the same time period. It mostly had to do with Mexico's leadership trying to gain the favor of the U.S., but it hasn't been that bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 04:46
Originally posted by Joe Joe wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Your guy doesn't have a single statue in Mexico. People of the Latin America admire heroes like Las Casas, rather than adventurers like Cortes. And with respect to the dead of the Mexican culture, you should be aware that the Virgin of Guadaloupe is Tonantzin. Never heared about the Santa Muerte.

By the way, I am agnostic.

 

Yeah but his effect is undeniable upon the culture of mexico. He might not directly influence but I have yet being a white male in his 20s
You're in your 20s?
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to meet a mexican person who identified as an aztec and spoke that language.
So what? Even if they did identify themselevs as aztecs they probably wouldn't be. Up until recently (maybe still true) most Jews couldn't speak Hebrew, but they were still Jews. How many so-called 'Latinos' speak Latin? For that matter I don't suppose you speak Old High German either. I certainly don't speak Brythonic.
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I understand Mexico fought a civil war much like we did with England
You didn't fight a civil war with England (though somewhat tenuously one might say there was a civil war between the rebels and the Loyalists). Part of the population of the British (not English) colonies in North America, allied to the French, Spanish and Dutch, fought for independence and won it. America's Civil War came fourscore and five years later.
 
And where do you get the 'we' from?
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and I appauld their victory in all the homage they deserve but whenever somebody brings up Mexican or Latino culture I bring up spain. Cause I knew a guy and lets call him Ed. He is an old man in his 60s who lived in europe for much of his life and hes a good friend of mine and he lived in Spain and Germany and colombia for years. Hes been to all the countries of south America in his many travels and i believe him as he knows both languages fluently. He says to this day if he had a place to pick to go to it'd be colombia or spain as their spanish is more "correct" and he may be white. Though i've seen the guy with spanish people and hes amazing its almost as if hes not an American.
Are you implying you cannot be Spanish and American? If he thinks any language or dialect is more 'correct' than any other, he evidently knows nothing about linguistics, but I guess that's not uncommon. When he talks about Spanish in Spain does he mean in Madrid, or in Barcelona, or in Bilbao, or Majorca? It's as silly as talking about the 'English they talk in England', or the 'German they speak in Germany'.
 
What does the colour of his skin have to do with anything?
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I understand those cultures fought for their freedom but Spain is still the grandfather. Like here in America we would be dicks to say England isn't our grandfather nation.
But - and I think this is pinguin's point - the native population in the territory of the modern United States was effectively eliminated from the gene pool and their cultures vanished, whereas in the countries of Latin America there was much more intermixing, so that the various peoples and cultures merged and are still present.
 
Take a look around the politicians of Latin America and you'll find a lot with evident native Indian blood. Take a look around the politicians of the United States, and how many Indians are you likely to spot? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 05:53
Originally posted by hugoestr hugoestr wrote:

To be fair to Pinguin, the U.S. did a horrible wrong to Chile in the 70s. And the U.S. also supported for a while the Argentinian junta, and taught torture techniques to Central and South American.
.


Yes, the U.S. intervined in Chile as well. However, the impact in El Salvador and Guatemala was a lot worst than what happened in my own country.
Those events can be forgiven, but they aren't forgotten.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 11:34
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

..
But - and I think this is pinguin's point - the native population in the territory of the modern United States was effectively eliminated from the gene pool and their cultures vanished, whereas in the countries of Latin America there was much more intermixing, so that the various peoples and cultures merged and are still present.


In Latin America the Indigenous influence is more clear because the rate of survival of natives was higher.
However, the U.S. also has lot of indigenous roots and also indigenous descendent peoples. In the surface the U.S. may look like a clone of Europe, but just under the surface you discover it has local roots as well.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

..
Take a look around the politicians of Latin America and you'll find a lot with evident native Indian blood. Take a look around the politicians of the United States, and how many Indians are you likely to spot? 


Indeed. But there is also American people with quite obvious indigenous features as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 14:00
Actually, the Mexicans/Spaniards from the Northern States of Mexico did stay there. They were not eliminated from the gene pool, and in some states they are still a significant part of its culture. I am not too familiar with the subject though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 11:20
I am convinced that many of the Amerindians that were "exterminated" in the early stages of colonization in the British colonies, actually mixed with the newcommers.
What happened afterwards was a flood of European migration that diluted that admiture to its current levels. But the idea that there wasn't admixture in the British colonies seems to be a ridiculous myth.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 11:37
Hello Pinguin. May I ask, what has this thread turned into? You know we already have a few other "victimization" threads you had opened in other areas of the forum. Even ones under the guise of "music" such as this is one is not immune. Now if you don't mind try to place your common themes under one roof in the future or better yet, under one thread. 

Edited by Seko - 27 Jan 2011 at 11:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 11:43
Victims? I am just showing music. Anyways. I quit the thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 11:45
Umm...OK. If you say so. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 21:45
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am convinced that many of the Amerindians that were "exterminated" in the early stages of colonization in the British colonies, actually mixed with the newcommers.
What happened afterwards was a flood of European migration that diluted that admiture to its current levels. But the idea that there wasn't admixture in the British colonies seems to be a ridiculous myth.
That there was no admixture in the British colonies would of course be ridiculous. However I don't think anyone believes it, so it's not a myth.
 
My original point was that there was considerably LESS mixing of Amerindians with Europeans in the territory of what is now the United States than there was in Latin America. I didn't say there was none, and in particular I went to great lengths NOT to say in the British colonies.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 22:08
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
That there was no admixture in the British colonies would of course be ridiculous. However I don't think anyone believes it, so it's not a myth.
 
My original point was that there was considerably LESS mixing of Amerindians with Europeans in the territory of what is now the United States than there was in Latin America. I didn't say there was none, and in particular I went to great lengths NOT to say in the British colonies.  


I agree with that. The density of population at contact was very low in the U.S.
Actually, in genetical terms the level of admixture with Amerindians in the U.S. (6%) is half the Cuban (12%), and it is only a quarter of countries like Argentina or Chile (24%).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 07:13
It has been claimed:
 
Actually, in genetical terms the level of admixture with Amerindians in the U.S. (6%) is half the Cuban (12%), and it is only a quarter of countries like Argentina or Chile (24%).
Hmm, let's apply those numbers in terms of total population as of 2009 stats: US 311.9 million; Argentina 40.1 million,; Chile, 17.1 million; and Cuba 11.2 million.
 
Egads! There are 18.714 million people in the US with Amerind genetics while in Chile only 4.1 million can claim some type of Amerind ancestry. So much for the balderdash over mestizaje and population densities.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 07:25
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

It has been claimed:
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Actually, in genetical terms the level of admixture with Amerindians in the U.S. (6%) is half the Cuban (12%), and it is only a quarter of countries like Argentina or Chile (24%).
Hmm, let's apply those numbers in terms of total population as of 2009 stats: US 311.9 million; Argentina 40.1 million,; Chile, 17.1 million; and Cuba 11.2 million.
 
Egads! There are 18.714 million people in the US with Amerind genetics while in Chile only 4.1 million can claim some type of Amerind ancestry. So much for the balderdash over mestizaje and population densities.
 
No doctor. That's not what it means.
These percentage represent the percentage of Amerindian genetics with respect to European/Other in the genetic pool. So, in AVERAGE every Chilean has a 24% of Amerindian genetics and 76% of European. It doesn't say anything about how many Chileans are full Amerindian, mixed or European at all. Most Chileans have some admixture. The same applies for other populations.
In Argentina, for instance, half the population has Amerindian mtDNA, but the average of mixing is about 20% of Amerindian. This means that half the Argentineans have a confirmed Amerindian female ancestor, but that the proportions of mixing
 
Got it? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 07:37
Hugo, in re this post:  "To be fair to Pinguin, the U.S. did a horrible wrong to Chile in the 70s. And the U.S. also supported for a while the Argentinian junta, and taught torture techniques to Central and South American."

Yes, the U.S. secretly funneled some 100 million dollars to Allende's opponents. A tremendous waste of money, but a drop in the bucket of Chile's economy. Since it hardly met the 'ipsa qua non' rule of events that led to the military coup, I fail to see it as a 'horrible" wrong. As far as teaching torture to South and Central American (??? militaries, I presume), I have never seen any realistic proof that such is true. I was a commando and patrolling instructor at the School of the Americas in the late '70s, and we did not teach any torture techniques. We did run a small block of instruction on how to take prisoners, which emphasized the 'secure, segregate, silence' etc rules which emphasized humane but strict treatment of persons taken prisoner. Of course, we had no control of what they would actually put into practice once they got back to their home countries. As for the dictatorships which sent students through the School of Americas, our human rights instruction fell on deaf ears, and we could hardly have taught any of these 'gentlemen' anything about torture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 07:50
Unless every inhabitant of Chile or for that matter any of the foregoing mentioned political entities has undergone genetic testing these claims remain essentially meaningless. An earlier poster underscored these antics with the rash of junk science littering the landscape. Just how far removed from "Lucy" do you want to go, Penguin, with these antics. Shall we have a discussion on markers and the quality of testing. If you want to play games with biogeographical ancestry go ahead but keep in mind that genealogical hocus pocus blending CODIS with OmniPop remains such and try to get a guarantee from the people hawking such data services. I am surprised you have not consulted with the "usual suspects" at Wiki.
 

Edited by drgonzaga - 28 Jan 2011 at 07:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 08:11
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


I was a commando and patrolling instructor at the School of the Americas in the late '70s, and we did not teach any torture techniques. We did run a small block of instruction on how to take prisoners, which emphasized the 'secure, segregate, silence' etc rules which emphasized humane but strict treatment of persons taken prisoner. Of course, we had no control of what they would actually put into practice once they got back to their home countries. As for the dictatorships which sent students through the School of Americas, our human rights instruction fell on deaf ears, and we could hardly have taught any of these 'gentlemen' anything about torture.


Of course, that is how i have come to understand it too. But it made for boring print at the time and no advertising sales. Spruce it up by throwing in the blood thirsty evil yanqui imperialist and ta-daa, a new myth is born. School of the Americas, a place where storm troopers and Sith lords go for some R&R and to find themselves.


Edited by Panther - 28 Jan 2011 at 08:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 09:19
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Unless every inhabitant of Chile or for that matter any of the foregoing mentioned political entities has undergone genetic testing these claims remain essentially meaningless. An earlier poster underscored these antics with the rash of junk science littering the landscape. Just how far removed from "Lucy" do you want to go, Penguin, with these antics. Shall we have a discussion on markers and the quality of testing. If you want to play games with biogeographical ancestry go ahead but keep in mind that genealogical hocus pocus blending CODIS with OmniPop remains such and try to get a guarantee from the people hawking such data services. I am surprised you have not consulted with the "usual suspects" at Wiki.


They aren't meaningless, dear drgonzaga. The study of admixture in Latin America by means of genetical markers is quite advanced, and the studies in Chile are many. They match not only the historical records but the very aspect of the people.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 09:21
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Hugo, in re this post:  "To be fair to Pinguin, the U.S. did a horrible wrong to Chile in the 70s. And the U.S. also supported for a while the Argentinian junta, and taught torture techniques to Central and South American."

Yes, the U.S. secretly funneled some 100 million dollars to Allende's opponents. A tremendous waste of money, but a drop in the bucket of Chile's economy. Since it hardly met the 'ipsa qua non' rule of events that led to the military coup, I fail to see it as a 'horrible" wrong. As far as teaching torture to South and Central American (??? militaries, I presume), I have never seen any realistic proof that such is true. I was a commando and patrolling instructor at the School of the Americas in the late '70s, and we did not teach any torture techniques. We did run a small block of instruction on how to take prisoners, which emphasized the 'secure, segregate, silence' etc rules which emphasized humane but strict treatment of persons taken prisoner. Of course, we had no control of what they would actually put into practice once they got back to their home countries. As for the dictatorships which sent students through the School of Americas, our human rights instruction fell on deaf ears, and we could hardly have taught any of these 'gentlemen' anything about torture.


Yes, the infamous School of the Americas.

One can understand that the U.S. took sides on the ideological battles of the Cold War. It is easy to understand that the U.S. financed theirs guys in the game.

What I can't undestand, though, is how a country like the U.S. that preaches freedom, equality and justice, supported torture and extermination of political opponents overseas. That's unacceptable. You can't hate freedom inside and tyrany outside.




Edited by pinguin - 28 Jan 2011 at 09:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 09:39
Is the above a rhetorical question? The notion that the United States bears direct responsibility for the politcal fray in Chile is ludicrous on its face. Nor are many in Latin America in need of instruction when it comes to militarism, torture, political terror etcetera, etecetera , etcetera. Again the cant comes through and conveniently forgets that Pinocher remained in power long after the US took any interest in the goings on...as for this admixture biz, it remains the remnant of early 20th century intellectual buzzing so as to calm the hoi polloi. Funny you've not mentioned Becker again.

Edited by drgonzaga - 28 Jan 2011 at 09:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 09:44
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am convinced that many of the Amerindians that were "exterminated" in the early stages of colonization in the British colonies, actually mixed with the newcommers.
What happened afterwards was a flood of European migration that diluted that admiture to its current levels. But the idea that there wasn't admixture in the British colonies seems to be a ridiculous myth.




You are convinced because you have convinced yourself - the usual pinguin myopia.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 09:45
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Hello Pinguin. May I ask, what has this thread turned into? You know we already have a few other "victimization" threads you had opened in other areas of the forum. Even ones under the guise of "music" such as this is one is not immune. Now if you don't mind try to place your common themes under one roof in the future or better yet, under one thread. 


What the thread has turned into is what all pinguin threads turn into.  We all know what that is.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 09:53
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Is the above a rhetorical question? The notion that the United States bears direct responsibility for the politcal fray in Chile is ludicrous on its face. Nor are many in Latin America in need of instruction when it comes to militarism, torture, political terror etcetera, etecetera , etcetera. Again the cant comes through and conveniently forgets that Pinocher remained in power long after the US took any interest in the goings on...as for this admixture biz, it remains the remnant of early 20th century intellectual buzzing so as to calm the hoi polloi. Funny you've not mentioned Becker again.


What was done in Chile was done by Chileans.  Efforts to stigmatize the US for the military's actions and behavior are (to revive a Beylerbeyi term) a wank-fest.

What was done in Argentina was done by Argentinians.

What was done in Brazil was done by Brazilians.

All this "victimization" and crap that everything bad in Latin America is the fault of the United States, and that everything was hatched by the CIA borders on pathology....Ooooooh, poor Chile - the military wires up their opponents' privates and it is somebody else's fault.  They did it; they can get over it.

Not our fault; not our problem.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 10:14
Nobody has said everything bad in Latin America is the fault of the United States; that's a straw man, I am afraid. But I agree with the political analysis of Porfirio Diaz. A picture of him, first:



I quote him:

Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States!


Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

.Ooooooh, poor Chile - the military wires up their opponents' privates and it is somebody else's fault.  They did it; they can get over it.

Not our fault; not our problem.


Well, that reveals simply your lack of knowledge about the topic. I will inform you a bit.

Do you know who was Michael Townley?


Michael Vernon Townley is an American citizen currently living in the United States under terms of the federal witness protection program. A Central Intelligence Agency agent and operative of the Chilean secret police, DINA, Townley confessed, was convicted, and served time in the United States for the 1976 Washington, D.C., assassination of Orlando Letelier, former Chilean ambassador to the United States. As part of his plea bargain, Townley received immunity from further prosecution, and was therefore not extradited to Argentina to stand trial for the assassination attempt on Chilean general Carlos Prats and his wife. Townley has also been convicted (1993), in absentia, by an Italian court for carrying out the 1975 Rome murder attempt on Bernardo Leighton. Townley worked in producing chemical weapons for Pinochet's use against political opponents, along with Colonel Gerardo Huber and the DINA biochemist Eugenio Berríos.


Do you know that Townley was a pioneer on terrorist attacks in the United States, 25 years before 9/11? He put a bomb in Washington DC that killed not only the Chilean politic but an American woman! And he was forgiven by the U.S. justice system, and lives like a king there.

Please, don't speak on topics you aren't aware. Watch the video






Edited by pinguin - 28 Jan 2011 at 10:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 10:39
And if you aren't convinced of the involvement of the U.S. as yet, here is the confession of the American Colonel Paul Wimert (Santiago US embassy) that he received US$ 250.000 to kill Rene Schneider. Schneiner was a commander in chief in Chile months before Allende become president. Schneiner was killed to leave the road open to military coups.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 11:32
I don't deny US involvement!  That is not the point.  What happened in Chile was done 99.99999% by CHILEANS!  Not out problem.

So Schneider got whacked?  So what?  That is all part of the game.  If you don't want to be in someone's gun sights in an unstable political environment, go grow grapes! 

All your arguments are BS!  As they are 99.99999% of the time.  LOL

Oh, and up YourTube.

 




Edited by pikeshot1600 - 28 Jan 2011 at 11:37
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