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lirelou View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 14:24
Pinguino mio, in re: "Nobody denied that the Chilean gorillas carried the coup. The U.S. was just an ally of them. What I wonder is how the U.S. could encourage such thugs."

What you should wonder is how an Army that had not intervened in politics in nearly a hundred years, a draftee Army of which Chile was very proud, obeyed orders from the 'gorillas' during the coup. If you can find the answer to that, you will be well on your way to understanding what really happened to turn so many Chileans against Allende.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 00:50
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Pinguino mio, in re: "Nobody denied that the Chilean gorillas carried the coup. The U.S. was just an ally of them. What I wonder is how the U.S. could encourage such thugs."

What you should wonder is how an Army that had not intervened in politics in nearly a hundred years, a draftee Army of which Chile was very proud, obeyed orders from the 'gorillas' during the coup. If you can find the answer to that, you will be well on your way to understanding what really happened to turn so many Chileans against Allende.


How. All you need for that to happens is a complot.
It is very clear that Allende wasn't liked by the right wing elite, the fascist faction of the military, and the keepers of U.S. foreign interests.
So, the plan started to unveil even before Allende took power, with the murder of a democratic general like was Rene Schneider. You should remember that for the thug gorillas to take power many people had already died.

Yes, it was a complot by the people that didn't like Allende. Not all them were Chileans, though, but I don't blame Americans for the coup. I blame them for the hypocresy of preaching democracy and impossing or supporting fascist regimes abroad.

By the way, watch this video. It shows the suspicious that the criminal hasn't died. It also show how Pinochet was recorded by history.





Edited by pinguin - 30 Jan 2011 at 00:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 02:15
Penguin, if you do not realize that your resort to "conspiracy" theories and the tired jargon of times past (fascist? there has not been a "fascist" since old Benito got strung -up in the piazza) is little more than moving full speed into denial mode when it comes to addressing the internal problems of Chile then and now. If you wish to discuss Chilean policies and politics do so in the terminology appropriate to the home setting and corresponding to Chilean realities. Besides do you not find it a tad ironic that you--after all that rhetoric--now "confess" to voting for a a rather wealthy individual with his own baggage (shades of Pineragate) who, if anything, represents the exact social and economic strata that permitted  Pinochet and the Chilean military to perdure in power for an entire generation?
 
Understand that failure to respond to that last question will underscore that your penchant for anti-American blah-blah is but farce simply intended to antagonize.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 02:28
Pinguino, what you are saying is that the Chilean Armed Forces, at the time the most respected military in Latin America, was a draftee Army composed of sheep who blindly did whatever a clique of Fascist officers told them.

As for how 'history' will remember Pinochet, I believe that it is not yet written in stone. Hey, the great majority of Chinese still worship Mao, and he is a known mass murderer. But will they in 50 years? Likewise, will generations hence relook the Pinochet legacy and decide that there was more to the man than a mere cartoon 'gorilla'. I do know for a fact that I can find Chileans today who view him positively. Whether it's your children, or theirs who write the history, I really don't care. Not my problem. 

(Excuse me, I have to rush off to another secret meeting in the Pentagon. We meet once a week to draw up a list of countries we want to screw. All we have to do is snap our fingers, and those countries armed forces merely jump up and do our bidding. Viva el pentagonismo!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 08:58
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Pinguino, what you are saying is that the Chilean Armed Forces, at the time the most respected military in Latin America, was a draftee Army composed of sheep who blindly did whatever a clique of Fascist officers told them.


Yes, the armed forced were (and are) very well organized and efficient. That doesn't mean they couldn't become an evil force at a given time. Remember that the German Army was the best organized and efficient of Europe at a time, but falled under the control of Hitler and the Nazis.

In fact, the policy of terror of the gorilla was coldly planned. The idea was to torture and killing people at random. That ways, only killing 3.000 people in a period of 16 years they were able to control our country.

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


As for how 'history' will remember Pinochet, I believe that it is not yet written in stone. Hey, the great majority of Chinese still worship Mao, and he is a known mass murderer. But will they in 50 years? Likewise, will generations hence relook the Pinochet legacy and decide that there was more to the man than a mere cartoon 'gorilla'. I do know for a fact that I can find Chileans today who view him positively. Whether it's your children, or theirs who write the history, I really don't care. Not my problem. 


Pinochet is already condemned. He is considered a brute. He is not considered very smart at all (we have his marks at high school LOL). He is considered an opportunist, given he was called to direct the coup by other smarters than him. Admiral Merino, for example.
His "economical myracle" is attributed to technicians of the Catholic University of Chile, rather than to his inventiveness. In fact, Admiral Merino had a lot more to do with that plan that Pinochet. A man that hardly could have abstract thoughts Confused
Finally, at the end of his life, it was discovered how much Pinochet robbed to the state. So, the image of him is not only the one of a murderer but of a thief.

Gorilla is any militar that took the control of Latin American countries during the Cold War. Gorilla is a brute that kill people and receive tips from Washington. Gorillas usually developed theirs skills at the School of the Americas.

Fascist is just a synomin of Gorilla in the local Latin American culture. Who cares about Mussolini and his clowns. For us, the image of a Fascist is Franco. The model of all Latin American gorillas.


Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


(Excuse me, I have to rush off to another secret meeting in the Pentagon. We meet once a week to draw up a list of countries we want to screw. All we have to do is snap our fingers, and those countries armed forces merely jump up and do our bidding. Viva el pentagonismo!)


Watch out for planes crashing at the building. Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 09:12
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Penguin, if you do not realize that your resort to "conspiracy" theories and the tired jargon of times past (fascist? there has not been a "fascist" since old Benito got strung -up in the piazza) is little more than moving full speed into denial mode when it comes to addressing the internal problems of Chile then and now.


What happened in Latin America wasn't a conspiracy. Conspiracy is what happens under the curtains and nobody else knows. Here everybody knew what was going on! Confused
The details of what happens is there in hundred of sources, for anyone that want to study and see.

With respect to the term Fascist, perhaps you are right. Al least old Benito was popular among Italians who loved him. Many loved Hitler, Stalin and other dictators. On the contrary, nobody loved Pinochet here. Pinochet was one of the most hated dictators ever, and that itself requires a study.

But the term Fascist is well applied by me. Read the definition in the RAE dictionary (the official dictionary of Spanish)

fascista.

1. adj. Perteneciente o relativo al fascismo.

2. adj. Partidario de esta doctrina o movimiento social. U. t. c. s.

3. adj. Excesivamente autoritario.


The acception we use is "too much authoritary". Pinochet was a fascist, no doubt.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


If you wish to discuss Chilean policies and politics do so in the terminology appropriate to the home setting and corresponding to Chilean realities.


I shown above I have used the right terminology. Pinochet was a fascist. He was also a Gorilla. Look at the RAE dictionary again, where "Gorila" is recognized as a coloquial term for military dictator Wink

gorila.

(Del lat. cient. gorilla, y este del gr. Γόριλλαι, tribu de mujeres peludas).

1. m. Mono antropomorfo, de color en general pardo oscuro y de estatura semejante a la del hombre. Tiene tres dedos de sus pies unidos por la piel hasta la última falange, es membrudo y muy fiero, y habita en África a orillas del río Gabón.

2. m. coloq. guardaespaldas.

3. m. coloq. Arg., Guat., Nic. y Ur. Policía o militar que actúa con violación de los derechos humanos.

4. m. despect. coloq. Arg., Cuba, Ur. y Ven. Individuo, casi siempre militar, que toma el poder por la fuerza.

5. m. coloq. El Salv. militar (hombre que profesa la milicia).



Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Besides do you not find it a tad ironic that you--after all that rhetoric--now "confess" to voting for a a rather wealthy individual with his own baggage (shades of Pineragate) who, if anything, represents the exact social and economic strata that permitted  Pinochet and the Chilean military to perdure in power for an entire generation?


Don't you know the right wing in Chile also has divorced from Pinochet and his thugs?
Nobody wants to be associated with the gorilla anymore.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Understand that failure to respond to that last question will underscore that your penchant for anti-American blah-blah is but farce simply intended to antagonize.


I have already explained it. We live in a democracy. I voted for the President I though would manage the country the better, and that was Pinera. He is a millionaire, true, but to have a lot of money is not the same that being a gorilla. Not at all, sir. Besides, Pinera had made very clear he condemned Pinochet and he deffends the human rights of people. Even more, the processes against the Pinochet thugs go on.

Fascism has not support today in Chile. Pinochet is dead (thanks' God). Many of Pinochet accomplices are confined to jail, including bloody Mamo Contreras. Even more, today the right wing government is controlling the Armed Forced with harder hand that the leftists governments we had before. Confused

Yes, Chile has judged Pinochet already. He was guilty.







Edited by pinguin - 30 Jan 2011 at 09:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 09:28
Keep in mind this is a History forum and terms do have set meanings in that context. Further the language of exchange is English, and in an educated setting, not the ramble of the colloquial. After all are you now going to equate the usage of Falange in Chilean politics with the Falange of Primo de Rivera in Spain? Further the usage of "fascist" within an English language setting is now so debased as to be meaningless and best left to the immature with a marked incapacity for deliberative thought.
 
Besides I do believe that certain residents of the zoological parks are taking offense at your slurs on their character!
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 09:45
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Keep in mind this is a History forum and terms do have set meanings in that context. Further the language of exchange is English, and in an educated setting, not the ramble of the colloquial. After all are you now going to equate the usage of Falange in Chilean politics with the Falange of Primo de Rivera in Spain? Further the usage of "fascist" within an English language setting is now so debased as to be meaningless and best left to the immature with a marked incapacity for deliberative thought.
 
Besides I do believe that certain residents of the zoological parks are taking offense at your slurs on their character!


Indeed, actual gorillas are peaceful creatures. But the image of a gorilla here is this. LOL



Curiosly, according to the Webster dictionary, Gorilla has the same meaning in English:

1: a very large typically black-colored anthropoid ape (Gorilla gorilla) of equatorial Africa that has a stocky body with broad shoulders and long arms and is less erect and has smaller ears than the chimpanzee
2 a : an ugly or brutal man

So does fascism.

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2
: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>

So, I am not using wrong terms. And yes, I am using these words to convey the meaning I want. I accept that.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 11:07
Pinguin, there is a gorilla = hairy ape found in Africa.

And then there is a guerrilla = humans carrying AK-47 once only found in South America.

Other than that, this thread has become one big conspiracy theory.


Edited by Panther - 30 Jan 2011 at 11:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 11:17
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

...
Other than that, this thread has become one big conspiracy theory.


Justify the "conspiracy" theory. There is no conspiracy here. The plottings were done at light day and everybody knows who did it.

For instance, the involvement of the corrupt U.S. government of the time, lead by Nixon and Kissinger, is something very well documented. There is no conspiracy in calling them corrupt, given the fact the very American people exposed them as such.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 11:40
Okay, what do you know about the Soviet involvement in your country prior to the elections? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 11:49
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Okay, what do you know about the Soviet involvement in your country prior to the elections? 


I have the same feelings about the Soviets. They were using Latin Americans to do the dirty job they couldn't make. Soviets acted in the same imperialistic way that the Americans in the region. The conflict was unavoidable.

There was three parties in this dance: the Soviets, the Americans and the locals, and you can find the origin of this disaster among the three.

Come on, the Soviets and theirs Cuban ally tried to put nuclear missiles in Cuba. Is not that the U.S. was innocent on this, after all Kennedy tried to invade Cuba with mercenaries. However, that game was so risky it could easily turned into WWW III. Confused

I don't think the U.S. should have marginalized from this conflict at all. But I do think that country didn't act in the correct manner. Instead of encouraging democracy, the U.S. encouraged fascism. That was not only wrong but it was an hypocresy. And that is something the region has not forgotten.

In fact, we found most European countries supported our local democracies and democratic movements, but the U.S. didn't care.

With respect to communism, socialism and Allende, it is very clear to us that the extremists among those political groups, were guilty of destroying Allende government as much as the fascists! That an idiot like socialist Altamirano, called for civil war and the controlling of armed forces, just weeks before the coup, was the dead sentence for Allende regime and Allende himself.




Edited by pinguin - 30 Jan 2011 at 11:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 12:07
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


I don't think the U.S. should have marginalized from this conflict at all. But I do think that country didn't act in the correct manner. Instead of encouraging democracy, the U.S. encouraged fascism. That was not only wrong but it was an hypocresy. And that is something the region has not forgotten.


 How would you feel knowing that Salvador Allende accepted at least half a million dollars back then from the Soviets for his campaign and also the help of the KGB in helping him to win this extremely narrow election, subverting the supposed democratic election process. What a joke that was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 12:11
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


 How would you feel knowing that Salvador Allende accepted at least half a million dollars back then from the Soviets for his campaign and also the help of the KGB in helping him to win this extremely narrow election, subverting the supposed democratic election process. What a joke that was.


Everybody contributed with the local campains. It is also well known that the U.S. and others financed Allende political opponents. If we speak about corruption, it started from the superpowers and spread worldwide.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 23:26
Again, this litany of el Tio Sam as the fall-guy for all the social ills of Latin American states is a bunch of crap! Further, it is indicative not of manipulation by malevolent yanquis but of the clear and distinct failures of these national societies to address their own internal contradictions. If one is completely sanguine, one can clearly see that in terms of politics Latin America was still fighting the ideological issues of the 19th century well into the 20th century and in some instances is still fighting the same tired battles in the 21st. The United Fruit Company did not "shape" rural peonage for the sake of the banana, such was already in place in both Honduras and Nicaragua in the 1920s. The notion that caudillos were also the distinct consequence of perfidious Washington is likewise a convenient myth. Such were present at the birth of all of these republics as was militarism since such was the principal venue through which these nation-states were forged (with the exception of Paraguay, where an old bureuacrat, Dr. Francia, had his own ideas on utopia, and even there he was succeeded by a militarist perspective). One only has to laugh uproariously in an encounter with the following:
 
Quoth the Penguin evermore:
 
If we speak about corruption, it started from the superpowers and spread worldwide.

If such is not a bald and blatant refusal to examine the failings of Latin American "democracy" in terms of their own experiences then Fulgencio Batista was a misunderstood humanitarian!

Intellectually, the revolutionary cliques of Latin America have always been dishonest in most instances and their principal characteristic has been that of being overly-long on rhetoric (usually a foreign ideology) and entirely corrupt in practice because their notions on reform involve vengeance against ghosts at the expense of true social justice and equity. We have for long belaboured the dispossession of the Amerind from their lands and the disruption of their political status, but such was never the product of "imperialism" of any sort; instead, it was the direct product of Latin America's own revolutionaries and their tilted ideas on "modernity" in a 19th century context. Indigenismo is little more than a feigned exorcism of their own failings in the immediate past. So enough of hyperbole and let's have a little healing through frankness.


Edited by drgonzaga - 30 Jan 2011 at 23:43
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Fellow, Uncle Sam has been our biggest problem since the middle of the 19th century. That's something hard-written in the conscience of any Latin American, either from the left or the right.

The only way to break free of Uncle Sam's military influence is by making our own nukes. That is not beyond the technical skills of the region, but it is something our region doesn't want to do, because the remedy could be worst than the illness (Sam).

And yes, there are many faults in the region, but they are potentiated even more by Uncle Sam's shadow.

If we are in peace now it has a simple explanation. Uncle Sam is too bussy fooling around with Arabs and Muslims. But who knows what it will do if that region calm down. The U.S. military will have to invent conflicts once again to justify the U.S. gun industry and military establishment. And that could certainly be a risk for our region.

The solution? Increase the commerce with other regions, rather than with the U.S. Perhaps economical weakness would make that superpower to get mature.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 01:10
Garbage! If the thought of clowns like Ahmidinejad with nukes should scare the hell out of the rational the notion of a Chavez wielding ICBMs is pure madness. But then rather than look at your own internal contradictions, Penguin, you once again turn to a straw-man as the "cause" of your own society's deficiencies. Do you not also realize that in your peremptory declaration over "hard-wiring" you admit that what you are blathering has nothing to do with reality and is instead indoctrination. It would have never ocurred to any American politician to erect a plaque at the Canadian border announcing that one was leaving the bounds of civilization and entering the land of savages, but that is exactly what the Argentines did at their border with Brazil in Misiones. As for Latin America being "at peace" now, who do you think you are kidding! I can just see the tremendous commercial potential of Chile shipping their wines to Argentina--the truckers of Mendoza would sabotage the first transport! There is nothing at all wrong with the nation-states of Latin American developing their own defense industries--after all Brazil has had such as a long endeavour, but then Brazil has also had a long tradition of social introspection as to the origins of their own ills. That trait is markedly absent elsewhere in Latin America and all you are doing is providing ample evidence of such a catastrophic failure at introspective thinking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 05:40
Indeed, Uncle Sam is afraid only of nukes. That's why every time Sam has a conflict with China, it become docile and servile, and bends before the rulers of the former Celestial Empire, now the Red Empire. And that's why Uncle Sam preffered to fool around with Afganistan and Iraq, rather than with the real menaces of Pakistan, Iran and North Korea. If Latin America had those nukes, we would earn the respect of the superpower.

And with respect to Canada, yes they do pretty well with the U.S. Canada is a country that has even surrender the protection of its frontiers to his friends of the south. Just imagine.

And our social deficiences aren't U.S. business. As simple as that.



Edited by pinguin - 31 Jan 2011 at 05:40
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Oh good lord there hasn't been such a pile of taurus foeces since the Romans ceased sacrificing bulls on the steps of the Capitol! IF YOU DO NOT REALIZE THE COMEDY YOU INDUCE BY WRITING THE NONSENSE ABOVE YOU ARE BEYOND HELP.  
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Well, the tragical comedy is the way Uncle Sam acts. And it seems Sam programmed you quite well.
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