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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 12:56
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, if his ancestors were traitors of common European tradition because they became muslims than maybe your ancestors were considered traitors by some of their contemporaries when they converted to Christianity.
So as you see, the use of words like traitor is not so appropriate in this connection.


The same words are used in Greece by followers of the ethnic religion against christians, who in their view follow Jewish traditions instead of the Greek school of thoughts.

It's all relative init? Smile


How many are they, zero point something % ...
Remember that Christianity preserved a lot of previous European cultures, unlike Islam which made tabula rasa of the pre-islamic Arabia ... Critics never fail to remember us how much pre-christian paganism there is in Christianity ... More seriously, you should remember that if we even today have a "classical culture" we have to thank the Christian monks who in middle ages preserved it for us. If we even today can read the erotic tales of Ars Amandi or that Manifesto of naturalistic atheism which is the De rerum natura we have to thank those pious and God-fearing monks of the middle ages who copied them in their monasteries ...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 12:57
Also, my boy, I get every right of calling you that if I am able to be a bit more normal than you :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 12:58
Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:

Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, if his ancestors were traitors of common European tradition because they became muslims than maybe your ancestors were considered traitors by some of their contemporaries when they converted to Christianity.
So as you see, the use of words like traitor is not so appropriate in this connection.


The same words are used in Greece by followers of the ethnic religion against christians, who in their view follow Jewish traditions instead of the Greek school of thoughts.

It's all relative init? Smile


How many are they, zero point something % ...
Remember that Christianity preserved a lot of previous European cultures, unlike Islam which made tabula rasa of the pre-islamic Arabia ... Critics never fail to remember us how much pre-christian paganism there is in Christianity ... More seriously, you should remember that if we even today have a "classical culture" we have to thank the Christian monks who in middle ages preserved it for us. If we even today can read the erotic tales of Ars Amandi or that Manifesto of naturalistic atheism which is the De rerum natura we have to thank those pious and God-fearing monks of the middle ages who copied them in their monasteries ...



Why did the Arabian tribes preserve oral traditions, oral histories, and poetry then? Those were pre-Islamic concepts that were well preserved. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 13:09
Hello to you all
 
About the statistics, they are real, they come from a study done a year ago which shows that 80% of muslims don't prey period and a similar number don't fast in Ramadan.
 
As for Leo's comment about Arabs, well, unfortunately Arabs didn't have a written language then but don't worry, nearly all the temple grounds and ancient cities in Arabia are well preserved just as they are preserved in Turkey, Syria, Egypt, North Africa.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 13:09
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Leo my boy.


I'm not your boy, I could be your grandad ...


Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

My family's been Muslim for centuries, and in Europe. Stop being so irrational in a rational discussion. Religion was the common denominator of Western Europe. Not of the physical continent ( or Peninsula )



How this condradict my statement that Christianity is at the core of European civilization?
High likely your ancestors were Christians too before converting to the alien religion brought by the Ottoman invaders. So your ancestors were traitors of our common European tradition but we are generous and so you, as native muslim Europeans, are permitted to remain in your "Indian reservation" in Bosnia or in Kossovo Big smile



I guess your great grand daddy was a traitor to his pagan forefathers for forsaking the Golden Calf for that dude on a stick?

If I am harsh in return, please don't forgive me, I'm trying to show you that you're one ignorant fellow, and not only ignorant, but a whole bunch of other things as well that detriment you from participating in this forum on a normal level...

Again you're also mistaking the concept of Europe from a Western European pov, to a broader one that didn't exist up until a 100 years ago. 





I prefer if you call me "islamophobe", I don't think to be so "ignorant" about the stuff we are discussing here, for sure not much more than you ...

About Europe as a western European concept, do you seriously deny that the concept of European Christianity is much older than 100 years ago? Do you deny the role of Christianity in the ethnogenesis of lots of Eastern European peoples?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 13:17
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Also, my boy, I get every right of calling you that if I am able to be a bit more normal than you :)


Are you more normal than me, really? So where are you placed on this curve:




Edited by Leonardo - 27 Aug 2009 at 14:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 13:34
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:



How many are they, zero point something % ...
Remember that Christianity preserved a lot of previous European cultures, unlike Islam which made tabula rasa of the pre-islamic Arabia ... Critics never fail to remember us how much pre-christian paganism there is in Christianity ... More seriously, you should remember that if we even today have a "classical culture" we have to thank the Christian monks who in middle ages preserved it for us. If we even today can read the erotic tales of Ars Amandi or that Manifesto of naturalistic atheism which is the De rerum natura we have to thank those pious and God-fearing monks of the middle ages who copied them in their monasteries ...



Why did the Arabian tribes preserve oral traditions, oral histories, and poetry then? Those were pre-Islamic concepts that were well preserved. 



Of course, but they were religiously neutral or at least not incompatible with Islam. Can you seriously compare them with the books full of tales about the pagan gods which are the core of the classical European culture preserved by the Christian monks?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 13:36
Arab gods were made out of dates and eaten when they are hungry.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 13:40
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

As for Leo's comment about Arabs, well, unfortunately Arabs didn't have a written language then
 




AFAIK Arabs knew writing even before Islam.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 13:43
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Arab gods were made out of dates and eaten when they are hungry.
 
Al-Jassas



Thanks for confirming my point Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 13:51

The story above is true and it happened to one of the prophet's companions before he became a muslim.

As for writing, sure Arabs knew writing, so were half the world languages at the time. But Arabs didn't have the writing material (except parchments) and they had the unfortunate habit of having 6 different writing systems.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 14:03
Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:


How many are they, zero point something % ...



The number depends on the source. From 20,000 to 100,000. The point is that they're increasing year by year and nevertheless it is finally legal.

Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:


More seriously, you should remember that if we even today have a "classical culture" we have to thank the Christian monks who in middle ages preserved it for us. If we even today can read the erotic tales of Ars Amandi or that Manifesto of naturalistic atheism which is the De rerum natura we have to thank those pious and God-fearing monks of the middle ages who copied them in their monasteries ...


That is maybe in Italy. In Greece and West Turkey a lot has been destroyed because of the theocratic administration of the Eastern Empire. I would suggest you read "Ekklisiastiki Historia" by Theodoritus where you have in detail what was happening in the transition from Greco-Roman pantheon & mithraism to Christianity.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 14:22
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:




That is maybe in Italy. In Greece and West Turkey a lot has been destroyed because of the theocratic administration of the Eastern Empire. I would suggest you read "Ekklisiastiki Historia" by Theodoritus where you have in detail what was happening in the transition from Greco-Roman pantheon & mithraism to Christianity.






I know, eastern mediterran people have a hotter temper Smile  But eastern monks preserved too the Theogony of Hesiod, the genealogies of the gods, can you really think about something alike in Islam?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 16:11
Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Leo my boy.


I'm not your boy, I could be your grandad ...

 
Really ?  You could have fooled all of us.  How did you get to stay so....(how can I put this oh so eloquently?), so young and juvenile?  Are you a brother of Red Clay or Count Belisarius is your grand son?
 
Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:

......More seriously, you should remember that if we even today have a "classical culture" we have to thank the Christian monks who in middle ages preserved it for us. If we even today can read the erotic tales of Ars Amandi or that Manifesto of naturalistic atheism which is the De rerum natura we have to thank those pious and God-fearing monks of the middle ages who copied them in their monasteries ...
 
After they nearly wiped it all out?  Why was there a need to preserve it in first place, if it wasn't in danger?  and danger from what?  Would it be fair for me to say that the Christian church has burned more books than any other religion or nation?  Only others that are in contention comes to my mind at this moment is Chin Shi Huang Ti of ancient China and perhaps Alexander the Great himself?  Can anyone else help me with this actually? 
 
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:


The same words are used in Greece by followers of the ethnic religion against christians, who in their view follow Jewish traditions instead of the Greek school of thoughts.

 
 
Very good point, Flip.  I always forget how Hellanization was such a big part of the formation of early Christianity, even after reading some Nikos Kazantzakis.  I need to learn more about this actually.... 
 
 
Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:


.....I prefer if you call me "islamophobe", ......
 
LOLWinkClapLOLWinkClap
 
Thanks for pointing out what is so obvious to the rest of us.  There was a zero point whatever percent that we might have got it wrong.... phew....  most honest and also correct statement you've made in this thread.  I commend you for it.Clap
 
 
Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:

Can you seriously compare them with the books full of tales about the pagan gods which are the core of the classical European culture preserved by the Christian monks?


 
So you are now admitting that they had to be 'converted' into Christianity?  That it may well be of Europe but not from Europe originally? Once again you are ignoring the conditions created by the church to put them in danger first place.   The question here isn't whether Christianity has been the core of the European civilization for last 10-15 centuries.  It is about whether Christianity had to tear down and convert the previous 'core' into its own.  If that is the case, why not now for another?  Because it's been the 'core' for 10-15 centuries?  Is being a scared little man part of that 'core' too? 
 
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Arab gods were made out of dates and eaten when they are hungry.
 
Al-Jassas
 
That's what those are? We(Koreans)'ve been eating that up for thousands of years.  Big smile
 
 
Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:


I know, eastern mediterran people have a hotter temper Smile  But eastern monks preserved too the Theogony of Hesiod, the genealogies of the gods, can you really think about something alike in Islam?


 
At first I thought you are just not skilled and composed enough to defend your religion and only be a bad example of the other believers.. But I am starting to think that you are not even a Christian at all.  Even if an exterme Muslim internet terrorist is pretending to be a Christian, just to give it a bad name, no one could have done better job than you.  You are single handedly destorying the reputation of your religion and its followers around here faster than any Muslims or anyone else for that matter. Please stop kid yourself that you are actually defending anything, grandpa Leo. Thank god that rest of are intelligent enough to view you as an isolated individual.   At this point, it ain't even about Muslim immigration or the 'core of the European civilization'.  What is in danger is not the European identity, but your own soul.   


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 27 Aug 2009 at 16:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 16:54
Good heavens! Are we going to replicate the annual ethnic and political riots that plagued Alexandria for centuries!?!
 
To claim that Islam represented a tabula rasa from all that went before the Hegira is rather myopic--after all the Kabba in all of its centrality polishes off that argument. Now as for Theodoretus of Cyrrhaus, who updated the prior ecclesiastical history of Eusebius, does anyone not understand that the language at play is Greek through and through and whether one wishes to accept terminology or not any contretemps over Eros and Agape continues an old Hellenic debate. Nor should one lose sight of Monophysitism and its own impact on the evolution of Islam. Certainly, the intellectual world of the Eastern Roman Empire could not have "eradicated" the classical authors for them to have achieved translation into Arabic! Besides, has anyone bothered to consult the Kitab al'Asnan of Ibn Al'Kalbi? Yes, it is a diatribe against "idols" however one factor is immediately evident therein, within an Arabic context, tradition was the over-all rule. How is this factor any different than the governing element in today's major arguments within Islam itself. Is not "orthodoxy" anywhere but an incessant demand to respect tradition?
 
But hey, I admit I am biased here since I find it difficult to deny that Islam, as with Christianity, is an integral part of the heritage from the classical Mediterranean world...Knowledge and Reason--the classic Aristotelean pairing--had as great an impact on Islam as it later did on Thomas Aquinas, and that without Islam, this Dominican friar would have had a rather hard time finding that old Greek. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 19:17
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
But hey, I admit I am biased here since I find it difficult to deny that Islam, as with Christianity, is an integral part of the heritage from the classical Mediterranean world...Knowledge and Reason--the classic Aristotelean pairing--had as great an impact on Islam as it later did on Thomas Aquinas, and that without Islam, this Dominican friar would have had a rather hard time finding that old Greek. 



Really Thomas Aquinas had no need of Arabs to read "his" Aristotle, there was his Domenican brother William of Moerbeke, very versed in Greek language, who did the translation job for him ...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 20:19
If Muslim immigration from the Middle East threatens Europe, then I wonder what Europe is. If Europe is Christendom or a biological entity then any form of change becomes a threat, but Europe as a political, economic, social or even cultural entity shows no signs of being threatened by immigration. The Pole in question obviously equates Europe with Catholic Christendom, and while that may be "his" Europe it certainly isn't mine or everyone else's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 20:29
Leonardo
 
Do not forget the representants of the enlightened Christianity, Kyrillos and his gang, who peeled the skin of the librarian, and upholder of classical knowledge, Hypatia and then went on to destroy what was left of the library of Alexandria.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 20:51
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Leonardo
 
Do not forget the representants of the enlightened Christianity, Kyrillos and his gang, who peeled the skin of the librarian, and upholder of classical knowledge, Hypatia and then went on to destroy what was left of the library of Alexandria.


They were bigoted for sure but Alexandria is in Africa and not in Europe Smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 21:25
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello to you all
 
About the statistics, they are real, they come from a study done a year ago which shows that 80% of muslims don't prey period and a similar number don't fast in Ramadan.
 
As for Leo's comment about Arabs, well, unfortunately Arabs didn't have a written language then but don't worry, nearly all the temple grounds and ancient cities in Arabia are well preserved just as they are preserved in Turkey, Syria, Egypt, North Africa.
 
Al-Jassas
 
Add to that the dozens of different ethnic groups, languages, cultures and religions that could have been wiped out under Caliphate rule but still remain today as viable communities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 21:28
Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:


They were bigoted for sure but Alexandria is in Africa and not in Europe Smile


 
But a good deal of the wisdom preserved there were of the classic Greek kind. Hypatia was of Greek heritage and Alexandria was as incorporated into the European mediterranean world as any city in Greece itself. It did not matter if it was located on the African continent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 22:09
Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:

Really Thomas Aquinas had no need of Arabs to read "his" Aristotle, there was his Domenican brother William of Moerbeke, very versed in Greek language, who did the translation job for him ...
 
Nice try, Leonardo, but your assertion is but a simple assumption and a difficult one to substantiate since most of Aristotle had been translated into Latin by Gerard of Cremona (1114-87) at Toledo from existing Arabic manuscripts an entire century prior to William of Moerbeke (1215-1286). The activities of this Fleming was more or less and endeavor to ensure that no Averroistic influence had crept into existing translations. Shall we go into the Great Disputations of 1270-1272? You have to understand the tensions with the Augustinians at Paris to understand why the checking of the surviving Greek sources was, in a way, an afterthought in the great scholatic polemics of the Thirteenth Century.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 22:23
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Do not forget the representants of the enlightened Christianity, Kyrillos and his gang, who peeled the skin of the librarian, and upholder of classical knowledge, Hypatia and then went on to destroy what was left of the library of Alexandria.
 
Carl Sagan, is that you? All I can say, Carch, is that you should take some time off to read:
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 22:56
Lots of OT stuff here ...

Just as a summary of my principal thesis:

1. Christianity was, and at least in a broad cultural sense, is one of the main component of European civilization;

2. Islam was and even if in different ways even today is a historical enemy of Europe, it isn't and never was proper part of European civilization;

3. There is a need to stop muslim mass migration in Europe to preserve European civilization.


I have yet not found any real confutation of my thesis here.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 23:45
Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:

1. Christianity was, and at least in a broad cultural sense, is one of the main component of European civilization;


Yeees, but Europe has changed before and will change again. Christianity started as a religion among Middle Eastern immigrants, later it became the dominant religion of Europe. Many opposed it and persecuted the Christians as a dangerous and alien sect, whereas today Europeans consider Christianity an integral part of their culture and identity. Not that I believe Islam will follow a similar development, but even if it did it would not matter unless Europe is defined by religion.

Originally posted by Leonardo Leonardo wrote:

2. Islam was and even if in different ways even today is a historical enemy of Europe, it isn't and never was proper part of European civilization;


Islam only becomes the antithesis of Europe if you insist on defining it out. Theoretically speaking the Muslim states historically represented an opposing force to Christendom and carried some cultural traditions alien to Europe, but in practice this mattered less than political necessities and Christian and Muslim states often formed cross-religious bonds against rival states of the same faith. Modern Europeans however need waste no time brooding on that, rather they should think less about what European civilization was and more about what it is and will be, and the concept of Europe as Christendom surely belongs to the past. As such there is no reason why Islam shouldn't be a part of European civilization.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 00:11
But here is the question Leo, which europe are you talking about? The Balkan's (muslim nations of the area that is) experiment with Christianity was too short lived compared with Islam and many people converted to Islam from Paganism outright. Are they considered in this "europe"?
 
Same goes to Scandenavia which was also relatively pagan until the protestant reformation which stabalized christianity there. While catholicism is nothing but a metamorphosis of the old Roman religion/Institutions protestantism is esentially a direct link to the jewish tradition. Are these also in your version of europe.
 
Again, there is a simple way to stop all this and suggested it earlier. Plus there are about 50 million Italians in South America which is much poorer than Italy and would love to come to the home country, why don't you invite them back.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 03:23
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

About the statistics, they are real, they come from a study done a year ago which shows that 80% of muslims don't prey period and a similar number don't fast in Ramadan.

I don't know how such a study could be conducted, what criteria is used, or what it proves. Certainly most people with muslim backgrounds I meet in my community are religious (but I'd have no idea about praying or fasting of course). If anything non-religious people disappear into an agnostic community and don't identify as muslim. I would expect that western muslims are more concerned with practice than in their home country - for the reason that they fear about the religious upbringing of their kids (which is not a concern in a muslim country). Furthermore I'd think non-practicing are possibly more of a worry, because they are free to be as culturally conservative as they wish without religious restraint.
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Nor should one lose sight of Monophysitism and its own impact on the evolution of Islam

huh?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 04:35
Too obscure for you, Omar? There were Christian Arab tribes before the time of the Prophet you know...and Muhammad did not operate in a vacuum.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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Leonardo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 07:38
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

But here is the question Leo, which europe are you talking about? The Balkan's (muslim nations of the area that is) experiment with Christianity was too short lived compared with Islam and many people converted to Islam from Paganism outright. Are they considered in this "europe"?


What are you talking about? The "Balkans" (what a ugly Turkish word Smile) that is Illiria, Thracia, Moesia, Dacia, Greece etc were deeply christianized centuries before the coming there of Islam. After the great schism there was a split between catholicism in North-western Balkans and orthodoxy in South-eastern Balkans but there were very few pagans at the time of the coming of Islam. Probably you have heard something about the Bogomils of Bosnia who were persecuted as a heretical sect by both the Catholic and Orthodox authorities and who converted in the end to Islam.[/QUOTE]
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Same goes to Scandenavia which was also relatively pagan until the protestant reformation which stabalized christianity there. While catholicism is nothing but a metamorphosis of the old Roman religion/Institutions protestantism is esentially a direct link to the jewish tradition. Are these also in your version of europe.


It does not go at all ... Scandinavia was converted to Catholicism long before the Protestant reformation. The last part of Europe converted to Christianity (in this case to Catholicism), and so the last "stronghold" of paganism, was the area of the Baltic shore around Latvia. This happened about 2 centuries before the Protestant reformation.
 

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Again, there is a simple way to stop all this and suggested it earlier. Plus there are about 50 million Italians in South America which is much poorer than Italy and would love to come to the home country, why don't you invite them back.
 



Well, in the end you have written something I can wholeheartedly agree with Smile
This is precisely my stance about all this matter: to promote instead of mass migration of muslims the coming back of the descendants of Italian emigrants who are millions all around the word. Unfortunely no politician both rightist or leftist in this era of PC-ness could hold this political stance without beeing immediately accused to be a "racist" a "islamophobe" a "ultranationalist" a "neo-fascist" or what else ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 07:54
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Carl Sagan, is that you? All I can say, Carch, is that you should take some time off to read:
 
 
You can read some interesting stuff about Hypatia and the world she lived in, the library in Alexandria and also the role of women scientists through history, in Margaret Alics book Hypatias heritage.


Edited by Carcharodon - 28 Aug 2009 at 07:54
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