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Arizona's immigration law

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    Posted: 27 Apr 2010 at 18:03
Arizona passed a state law which is set to take effect in late July or early August - would make it a crime under state law to be in the U.S. illegally. It directs state and local police to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/27/national/main6436027.shtml

Of course the taboo word, 'racial profiling' is a tool in the local authority's arsenal. However, under suspicion even gruff looking US citizens can be pulled over for questioning.

Why is it that all of a sudden the Republicans are yapping so much?
"This law is a response to the president's and the administration's failure to secure our borders," McCain told CBS' "The Early Show". "The federal government has a responsibility to secure the borders, they have not."

Get's me by the gourd! Republicans have had 8 years (6 for those thinking you wanna get smart with me) to do something about boarder security but they just sh*t their pants...till now. Now that a Democrat is in office they have decided to take action on this issue.

Eight years was a long time for doing nothing. Republicans did nothing about finance reform either. Lifting a finger against financial institutions is not in the playbook. Imagine that. I'm glad Obama gave GM a bailout too then took over control of the company. It made the fat cats get serious and turn a new leaf (not saying that GM learned anything in the long haul...but maybe, just maybe she will).


What do you think about Arizona?

Me, its politics at play. Aside from that, Arizona is their state and I respect their decision as long as it is legal. I wouldn't want to be an illegal over there right now though. Maybe this action will create progress on the whole issue of border control. On the other hand, the notion of profiling someone is so in vogue these days. We are being desensitized to growing gestapo-like methods. Not good. Nope, don't like it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2010 at 22:43
Republicans are the party of No. Just look at how they blocked financial reform. 2 years crying about how we weren't going after Wall Street. The senate gets their act together, and suddenly all of their rage against Wall Street goes away, and they are blocking the needed reform.

And where is the Tea bagger rage on this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2010 at 22:53
I give credit to the Democrats. I wouldn't have figured that Congress (though still lingering along party lines) can get their act together with a purpose for reform. Helps to have strong leadership that takes action. Pelosi still makes me cringe but she is a good yes man (woman) to Obama.

...but give the GOP time...afterall that is what they ask for. Time for the next election that is. brrr.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2010 at 22:55
Almost forgot to ask, how is the weather in Muzhnopia?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2010 at 23:06
Its already claiming its first victims:
 
Reminds me when a guy I know was asked by the police to prove he is the husband of his 7 month pregnant wife and was arrested for not carrying his marriage certificate with him.
 
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Edited by Al Jassas - 27 Apr 2010 at 23:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 00:50
That was quick. good video Al J.

According to Kristal (Crystal or whoever that talking head on the news is) only 13 people will be rounded up. Give me a break. It will be a daily occurrence especially if there will be police quotas to meet.

Warning! All Mexican-Americans living in Arizona - be sure to carry your Birth Certificate with you at all times!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 01:08
And the Republicans still have balls to call Obama a Nazi after this? Seriously... if they haven't proven that they're the Party of racism then I don't know what else they need to pull... 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 02:14
Wait. It wasn't a crime before?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 03:55
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:



Why is it that all of a sudden the Republicans are yapping so much?
"This law is a response to the president's and the administration's failure to secure our borders," McCain told CBS' "The Early Show". "The federal government has a responsibility to secure the borders, they have not."

Get's me by the gourd! Republicans have had 8 years (6 for those thinking you wanna get smart with me) to do something about boarder security but they just sh*t their pants...till now. Now that a Democrat is in office they have decided to take action on this issue.


Believe me, they were sh*tting their pants before Obama took office. The primary problem for enforcement back then, as like now, was that they had George Bush for a President who equally dd not share in the same concerns as they do. Given that a portion of his family are of Hispanic in origin and having developed a unique perspective on this topic, leads me too wonder if he had not viewed this as one of paranoia by those who are screaming loudest for enforcement??? Perhaps the paranoia is now greater with Democrat's in control of the executive and legislative?

Anyways, i am starting to doubt the enforcing of any law is going to work as long as the conditions south of the border remain as they are?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 03:58
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

And the Republicans still have balls to call Obama a Nazi after this? Seriously... if they haven't proven that they're the Party of racism then I don't know what else they need to pull... 




The rhetoric is just politics. I would Just ignore it. No different really then when people called President Obama's  predecessor by the name of Bu$Hitler!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 05:18
Quote Anyways, i am starting to doubt the enforcing of any law is going to work as long as the conditions south of the border remain as they are?
Yeah, a strong police presence and border control to stop drug, arms, and people trade between Mexico and the US would seem to be in everyone's interests. The Mexican army is already occupied in that region, but US deployments along the border would seem to be a good idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 05:19
Arizona is famous for just such behavior in the the "law enforcement" game? Have we so quickly forgotten the "tent jails" of one particular Arizona sheriff, not to mention his "reality" program on the nabbing of miscreants with open warrants?
 
Just chalk it up to the desert heat and its effects on brain cells.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 13:42
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote Anyways, i am starting to doubt the enforcing of any law is going to work as long as the conditions south of the border remain as they are?
Yeah, a strong police presence and border control to stop drug, arms, and people trade between Mexico and the US would seem to be in everyone's interests. The Mexican army is already occupied in that region, but US deployments along the border would seem to be a good idea.


Pretty much that seems like the best answer. we already have a strong presence of border guards in
Nogales as well as other key towns. I would think that the US army would get good training out of that border as well. It would give fresh grunts some experience before they get shipped off to Afghanistan.

Needless to say, profiling and such (which takes effect over the summer) is not the way to go. Also, Mexico is suggesting that her citizens do not fly over to Arizona. Imagine the loss in tourism, family and dollars to the local economies. can Arizona afford that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 16:25

Here in Saudi Arabia we have an enormous illegal immigration problem. Some 2 million of them (almost two thirds come from Yemen) currently live here (out of a population of 26 million) and trust me everything that the government tried failed.

We have no legal procedure as the US has, we just deport them strait away (there were citizens who were deported for not carrying documents when they were caught and the cause of their deportation, they had a Yemeni accent). Every citizen and resident has to have an electronic ID card and police check points are dotted across the country. Some times when you go on highways you would see a bus parked in the check point. Anyone who doesn't carry a document is thrown in it even if he has one. If he is legal he is fined heavily if not deported and illegals are of course deported:
 
Private hospitals are by law banned from treating them and if they do the hospital may be closed (on the other hand malpractice is typically punished by a slap on te wrist) and employers of illegals may get everything confiscated.
 
Yet despite all these draconian measures still we have some 300k illegals crossing or overextending their visas every year:
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2010 at 16:27
If the Roman Empire could not "control" its borders against "barbarians" seeking a better life, just how well will new draconian measures succeed at impeding "population transfers". Sooner or later even "guest workers" get ideas!Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2010 at 14:04
I am not going to Arizona. Hey, no one with a tan should go there either.

In any case, the GOP seems incapable of controlling itself when it comes to showing that they are the racists' party. Unfair to non-racist conservatives, but elected GOP officials insist on making racism the face of the GOP.

Well, good bye to GOP victories in the future:

Latinos are 25% of the population, and growing bigger. Soon, they will reach 30% of the population.

Attacking illegal immigrants is attacking the relatives and friends of many U.S. citizens. Also, the negative stereotyping that the GOP employs to rile up the racist base applies to all Latinos, legal or not legal. Many white people are oblivious about this, but Latinos who are the brunt of these campaigns know that that is the case.

For that matter, Middle Eastern people and Muslims know what I am talking about too. They too became a target for the GOP for the last 9 years. They know how the rants against "terrorists" also apply to them even though their family has lived in the U.S. for 3 generations, they are Christian and can't even speak Arabic.

The GOP lost California with proposition 184. None of the young people that I know at the time who were Latino will ever vote for a Republican under normal circumstances.

The GOP lost Latinos nationally with their 2005 anti-immigrant campaign. For God's sake, they lost Evangelical Central-American Hispanics, who have voted with GOP for a long time.

Now they are going to lose another generation! Heckava job, GOP!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2010 at 15:11
Shall I play Advocate General--aka the Devil's Counsel?Evil Smile
 
Despite your appeal to Linda Rondstat and Joan Baez, Hugo, a sun-tan will hardly get you profiled in Arizona and much of this rhetoric is simply a tool in the advocacy racket by varied interest groups--from the SALAD crowd through the USCCB and finally "immigration" lawyers. Considering that the very manpower of the US Border Patrol in the Southwest is majority Hispanic the "argument from abuse" is rather hollow. Not that the chatterboxes now fixating on Arizona are not embarked upon their own version of stereotyping. There does exist a very dangerous criminal element that is making hay with the chaos in the nation's immigration system and the ineptitude of national politicians. One might even make a good posit by asserting that the political establishment since the 1960s has institutionalized Racism by making "race" a valid cognitive! In a way, one has to recognize that in situations such as this there will always be rats gnawing at the cheese from all sides.
 
The principal issues still remain:
 
1. The immigration process has to be standardized for the Americas in a manner that is both processive and equitable as a national responsibility.
 
2. The economic zones shaped by commercial policy since the 1990s demand equitable allocation of development funds and interactions so as to prevent the disruption of regional activities, and these must be enacted as promptly as possible.
 
4. Like it or not, the issue of "secure" borders is a vital one, and in a way the current travails of Arizona are a direct result of California's own actions along the Baja corridor! Ay chihuaha!
 
3. Dissemination of the notion that one national party rather than the other is "Latino" friendly does little more than acerbate the situation since it is false special interest politics. Spare the world such "liberal" cant since the very groups who flail against discrimination can be just as virulently clannish in this regard.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2010 at 15:24
The US immigration policy is a joke, you simply cannot prevent people from moving from one part of the border to the other. Its too vast. The macho Republicanism ideal might sound great in a political rally, but they know just as well as anyone else that they are fighting a losing war. Better to just adopt comprehensive immigration reform, offer an amnesty, and start over again. Engage in a little realpolitick, please!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2010 at 16:18
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

The US immigration policy is a joke, you simply cannot prevent people from moving from one part of the border to the other. Its too vast. The macho Republicanism ideal might sound great in a political rally, but they know just as well as anyone else that they are fighting a losing war. Better to just adopt comprehensive immigration reform, offer an amnesty, and start over again. Engage in a little realpolitick, please!
 
I take issue with the above since it is a stark misrepresentation of the problem. The people that have long resided within the "border region" (the 150 mile perimeter on each side) are not the problem. They have crossed freely for generations--I myself am among them--and they themselves recognize that not only drugs but also human trafficking has seriously disrupted the traditional. Let us be frank. For over a decade, the population influx has come not from the border region but from hundreds of miles away and reaching deep into Central America. In this regard, "amnesty" is not realpolitik but a repetition of past mistakes. In a way, the problems of California (and now Arizona) are not those of either New Mexico or Texas. With full irony I can utter "Thank you, Ronald Reagan!"--wouldn't you know it an Irishman lies at the root of the problemEvil Smile!


Edited by drgonzaga - 30 Apr 2010 at 16:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2010 at 16:35

If the US wants to solve the illegal migration problem is should force the mexican government to actually take care of those states which border the US or else the US will cross and kill or capture drug cartel members.

In my opinion the Mexican government deliberately ignores those states because its cheaper for them and in any case the US is up there and its huge economy has a massive demand for cheape labour that earns over there much more than in Mexico. A classic case of outsourcing their own problems to the US.
 
Yemen does exactly the same to us. The regions bordering Saudi Arabia are the least serviced and poorest among Yemeni provinces. It reached to a point that Saudi Arabia built hospitals and schools (and payed their staffs) in the border regions on the Yemeni side to stop migration but it didn't.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2010 at 17:16
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

The US immigration policy is a joke, you simply cannot prevent people from moving from one part of the border to the other. Its too vast. The macho Republicanism ideal might sound great in a political rally, but they know just as well as anyone else that they are fighting a losing war. Better to just adopt comprehensive immigration reform, offer an amnesty, and start over again. Engage in a little realpolitick, please!
 
I take issue with the above since it is a stark misrepresentation of the problem. The people that have long resided within the "border region" (the 150 mile perimeter on each side) are not the problem. They have crossed freely for generations--I myself am among them--and they themselves recognize that not only drugs but also human trafficking has seriously disrupted the traditional. Let us be frank. For over a decade, the population influx has come not from the border region but from hundreds of miles away and reaching deep into Central America. In this regard, "amnesty" is not realpolitik but a repetition of past mistakes. In a way, the problems of California (and now Arizona) are not those of either New Mexico or Texas. With full irony I can utter "Thank you, Ronald Reagan!"--wouldn't you know it an Irishman lies at the root of the problemEvil Smile!


I am aware of the complexities of Hispanic communities along the border with Mexico (George Bush has a Hispanic branch on his impeccably white family tree!)

Do you not think amnesty is the most logical solution? I don't see how America can conceivably guard a vast border, deport millions of people, and not ruin its economy in the process. Like it or not, those migrants are your economic future. I take it you are of the retiree generation - well your children won't get it so easy. Someone will have to pay their taxes in order for them to live off social security I'm afraid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2010 at 03:02
The scions of Prescott Bush impeccable? Now that supposition is highly debatable since from my end of the ancestral tree nothing good can flow down from the Ohio RiverEvil Smile...and I have forgotten more about Texas history than ex-president Bush--either one--ever knew!
 
As for amnesty, have you forgotten that this vehicle was supposed to have "solved" the problem a generation ago? One might simply retort here--been there, done that! The problem is a simple one: the laws and processes are already there (as byzantine as they might appear as a result of certain privileged classifications), what is absent is the will to enforce and conform on the federal and diplomatic levels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2010 at 14:34
america can seal it border if it wants to, but it is to busy on forward projection type forces that can go anywhere and blow anything up that it has neglected the basics in border protection.

who want to clamp down on illegals? capitalists love them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2010 at 16:28
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

america can seal it border if it wants to, but it is to busy on forward projection type forces that can go anywhere and blow anything up that it has neglected the basics in border protection.

who want to clamp down on illegals? capitalists love them.
 
Must be so, if the official stance of the Democratic Party as voiced by the Congressional leadership is a measure. Here is their "new" version of Immigration Reform:
 
1: Feigned militarization of the border (hey, folks, marshalling all aspects of the enforcement arms within the Department of Homeland Security can not be described as anything else short of deployment of the National Guard [they're saving that for Chicago!Evil Smile]
 
2. The Social Security Card as a national ID! Chuck the restrictions put in place back in 1934 and make all work a function of legal residency and/or citizenship. Legal "aliens" have green cards tied to an SS number and all citizens must now march to the local SS office for fingerprinting and the issuance of new "forge-proof" documents a bit more durable than the present flimsy little low quality paper puffery. Just think of it as a stimulus for new employment opportunities--imagine the federal man-power required to process nearly the entire nation!
 
I am quite sure that all of the participants in the May Day melees did not quite have these expedients in mind as the proper response to the Arizona initiative.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2010 at 13:33
I sympathise with the worries of the Arizonians (?), but the new law is leaky as hell. They'll be forced to drop it after a few court battles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2010 at 23:19
The failure of Congress to address the issue is what caused AZ to "do something."  The governor and the A.G. of that state understand that immigration is a Federal issue, but if the Federal government, and the Congress that funds it, will not do anything, a state on the front line off illegal immigration may force some action.
 
The state law is probably unconstitutional on several levels, but if that is the way to get the attention of Washington, D.C. pork-hounds, that is what to do.
 
Once inside that Beltway, members of Congress often lose interest in the concerns of their constituents.  It is more fun to play Congressional politics and to get on TV with the president.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2010 at 02:31
Pike,

This is just pandering to the tea baggers. Most of those people in Arizona understand that they can't survive without the market that illegal immigration creates for the state and without its labor.

This law is an attempt to rile up the crazy tea party members so that they will vote in November since all of the hate on the health care bill went away as soon as they saw that their medicare now covers the prescription donut hole.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2010 at 03:54
Hugo, the "tea baggers" are a media phenomenon given unmerited proportions by a public press that feeds off of frenzy--usually promoted by the media itself. Tea-baggers like the anti-abortion picketers are the spawn of the visual media and to be blunt I would guess that the vast majority of the voting electorate would not risk a sunburn or a headache for any "cause" advocacy. Sometimes general apathy in the American mainstream is worthy of praise!Evil Smile  As for the "tea baggers" themselves, any organization that charges "fees" and "registrations" for their events are hardly to be feared. Look upon them as another phenomenon akin to those pesky political recordings that always take up valuable space on one's telephone answering machines.
 
Now, as to the "unconstitutionality" of the Arizona law requiring "papers" from people apprehended in the commission of a felony such would be difficult to assert, Pike, since state police powers already have a wide latitude here. In Florida, the federal government long ago abdicated any initiating role to the state's criminal justice system. We will not go into the implications raised by "identity theft" laws that now run the gamut nationwide. Of course, Arizona legislators really mucked matters up and made any potential day laborer hanging around a temp agency subject to arrest, but hey only hack lawyers attempting an all encompassing solution to breathing could dream up such a weird "cover all bases" strategy.


Edited by drgonzaga - 04 May 2010 at 18:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2010 at 18:11
drgonzaga,

The tea baggers may have been astro turf to begin with, but they really exists. I have seen them in Washington and my wife knows people to are tea baggers.

And they are the base an the heart of the modern Republican Party, now that all of the sane members are running away from the loony bin that the party has become. So they must keep these people angry, and laws like this are design to do that.

We have some movement like that in Virginia too. Our attorney general, a GOP nutcase, decided to make and hand out new Virginia seal lapel pins using the seal that the state used when it was part of the Confederacy . Now every sane person will complain about that, and that will hurt the little tender heart of the right-wing radicals.
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