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Arizona's immigration law

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2010 at 18:51
Right wing, left wing and common sense be damned hardly makes for healthy politics. If there is a malaise in American politics it is the emphasis the Media places on the fringes at the expense of the rational voters who long ago left both parties and decide issues in terms of their own immediacy. Now the danger to any electoral system would be the growing realization by an informed majority of powerlessness at crucial junctures, specially if the situation involves economic well-being. However, I doubt that AG Cuccinelli's fervor over seals had anything to do with the Confederacy given the fact that the seal designed by George Wythe in 1776 remained the official seal of the state during the Civil War and what had Cuccinelli in a tizzy was the goddess Virtus' left teat! Those damned Romans had to spice up their Amazons.
 
 
In fact, the only thing that happened in 1861 was a change in the state flag, where the above seal replaced the star that had been on the state standard. Of course, any rational American would look upon the antics of this AG as factual proof of the deletorious effects of lax immigration policies on the body politics! FGS I doubt that surname is enshrined among the FFVs of the Eastern ShoreEvil Smile


Edited by drgonzaga - 04 May 2010 at 18:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2010 at 11:47

Leonidas sounds an appropriate note.

The 'illegal immigrant problem' will not go away as long as it provides a continuation of America's historic dependency on cheap imported labour. An effective Arizona law would have jailed anyone responsible for giving work to an illegal immigrant.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 00:13
It's either a misdemeanor or felony depending, on how many illegals are involved. Thus its a crime for anyone regardless of citizenship to shelter, hire from a vehicle (johns looking for prostitutes would be the analogy here), or transport an illegal alien.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 11:16
Making it a crime is one thing. Actually jailing people for it is another.
 
but if there are that many illegals around, how come there aren't just as many people in jail for helping them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 13:46
...the law doesn't kick in till the end of July

A few local police want nothing to do with it. They say it is not part of their job description to round up aliens or Americans who use 'em for cheap labor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 14:39
I was quoting the federal law, which has been around since the '80s or so, hasn't it?
 
The police must have a funny job description if it doesn't include arresting people who have broken / are breaking the law.
 
What do they plead - Marshall's opinion in Marbury vs Madison?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 16:51
Here's some links:

http://current.com/news/92397919_arizona-police-officers-we-wont-profile-and-john-mccain-conveniently-did-not-take-a-position.htm

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1986080,00.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+time%2Fnation+%28TIME%3A+Top+Nation+Stories%29

http://web.mac.com/waltermoore/WalterMooreSays.com/Blog/Entries/2010/4/30_Arizona_Police_Can_Enforce_Federal_Immigration_Law.html

http://article.wn.com/view/2010/05/01/Arizona_police_chief_criticizes_immigration_law/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2010 at 00:13
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Right wing, left wing and common sense be damned hardly makes for healthy politics. If there is a malaise in American politics it is the emphasis the Media places on the fringes at the expense of the rational voters who long ago left both parties and decide issues in terms of their own immediacy. Now the danger to any electoral system would be the growing realization by an informed majority of powerlessness at crucial junctures, specially if the situation involves economic well-being. However, I doubt that AG Cuccinelli's fervor over seals had anything to do with the Confederacy given the fact that the seal designed by George Wythe in 1776 remained the official seal of the state during the Civil War and what had Cuccinelli in a tizzy was the goddess Virtus' left teat! Those damned Romans had to spice up their Amazons.
 

[IMG=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/369532752_39c7215dd3.jpg]http://images.sodahead.com/blogs/000312807/virginia-state-seal-12902935826_xlarge.jpeg[/IMG]

 

In fact, the only thing that happened in 1861 was a change in the state flag, where the above seal replaced the star that had been on the state standard. Of course, any rational American would look upon the antics of this AG as factual proof of the deletorious effects of lax immigration policies on the body politics! FGS I doubt that surname is enshrined among the FFVs of the Eastern ShoreEvil Smile


Oh, Dear Doctor G. your research missed this time. Here is the confederate seal. Look at how modestly the Goddess looks. The older seal, with the boobage in it, is older than the confederate one, true, but then you couldn't make your veil I love the confederacy statements with that one, would you?



Edited by hugoestr - 10 May 2010 at 00:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2010 at 05:06
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

The US immigration policy is a joke, you simply cannot prevent people from moving from one part of the border to the other. Its too vast. The macho Republicanism ideal might sound great in a political rally, but they know just as well as anyone else that they are fighting a losing war. Better to just adopt comprehensive immigration reform, offer an amnesty, and start over again. Engage in a little realpolitick, please!

GOP and realpolitik? Common now... denial works much better ... plus they and their contributors benefit too much from the cheap labor. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2010 at 05:10
Originally posted by hugoestr hugoestr wrote:

Pike,

This is just pandering to the tea baggers. Most of those people in Arizona understand that they can't survive without the market that illegal immigration creates for the state and without its labor.

This law is an attempt to rile up the crazy tea party members so that they will vote in November since all of the hate on the health care bill went away as soon as they saw that their medicare now covers the prescription donut hole.

Good point 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2010 at 15:26
Not so fast, dear Hugo, the standard you chose as your illustration may be "Bowdlerized" but the imagery is not the official seal of the state since the original pressing of 1776 was never changed. How others chose to portray Virtus was, naturally, arbitrary; however, your little standard is actually a flagrant violation of the 1849 Code of Virginia [the governing legislation throughout the Civil War], which details to a Teat the official design.
 
Anyway, we are straying far from point with regard to what makes Attorney General Cuccinelli tick and it most certainly is not History.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2010 at 19:10
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Not so fast, dear Hugo, the standard you chose as your illustration may be "Bowdlerized" but the imagery is not the official seal of the state since the original pressing of 1776 was never changed. How others chose to portray Virtus was, naturally, arbitrary; however, your little standard is actually a flagrant violation of the 1849 Code of Virginia [the governing legislation throughout the Civil War], which details to a Teat the official design.
 

Anyway, we are straying far from point with regard to what makes Attorney General Cuccinelli tick and it most certainly is not History.


Dr. G, you are right, the oldest seal is the one that you showed up, but this violation of the seal happened during the Civil War, and that is the one image that which Cuccinelli decide to use.

So you can tell our crazy Attorney General that he is in violation of the law. He may even sue himself for it. He is nuts, so it may happen .

I think that the Arizona law is a big mistake for the GOP. Hey, they already got most adult Latinos hating them, so now they can go with the younger ones who missed the 2005 hate-fest.

What I would actually want to see is where is the positive proposals of the GOP. The GOP today look like the Marxists did in Mexico in 1992: full of negative criticism and advocating a failed platform.

And if Leninist and Mao Marxists were/are fools for advancing a plan that history proved a failure, so are the right-wingers who keep advocating radical neoliberalism.

Both fringes can't face reality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 06:44
I see no problem with Arizona choosing to enforce Federal immigration laws.Should the United States ever decide that strictly enforcing such laws is in their best interest, they will find the power to shut the border down to the point that (mostly) only legal immigrants get across. At that time, I suspect the the effects of its enforcement will force a re-look of our current immigration laws. The bottom line is that immigration laws that are not enforced are worse than no laws at all. It seems that we never deal with anything until decades after it has become a crisis. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 10:34
Well, perhaps I too will be hated by the Latinos, adult or otherwise, since I find the term itself insulting! We've had this go-round before over this bit of Frenchified puffery from the 19th century and just its usage should be indicative of a deep desire to obscure the exact nature of the problem and its sources. As for those illiterati calling themselves Republicans, please they are just old line "democrats" who've had an epiphany!
 
The situation is such that someone does have to provide border security and enforce legal identity within the national territory. That the Federal government has failed in this responsibility pursuant to early 20th century legislation simply means that someone has to fill the vacuum and at least "take notice" of the who and in what numbers.
 
Now, remind me again about the original purpose for documenting "aliens"....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 16:19
Gent's I don't think anyone in their right mind is suggesting less border security. The issue is profiling those already in the US. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 19:03
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Now, remind me again about the original purpose for documenting "aliens"....
   
Ermm  So that they couldn't be impressed by the Royal Navy? Smile
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 02:19
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Gent's I don't think anyone in their right mind is suggesting less border security. The issue is profiling those already in the US. 
 
Ooh, nasty word "profiling", no matter that such is an elementary task in criminology and law enforcement has need of such tools. Let's go after the Census Bureau and their "race questions"Evil Smile...Honestly, Seko, only someone actually unfamiliar with US and Mexican border regions (its actual residents and generational links) would be able to determine the difference betwee Nortenos (be they in Texas or Coahuila). They are both gueros...
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 02:42
Even though profiling is Police Academy material, hence elementary it surely is not intended to mistakenly affect legal Mexican-American citizens now is it?  This gueros wants to know the difference between Nortenos and Surenos sitting on a bench.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 03:11
OK, Hermano Seco, the one with the Cowboy hat, western shirt, bolo tie, and western boots is the Norteno. OK, he's in work clothes. Is he drinking Tecate beer and humming some polka style songs that might have an accordion in the background? Norteno. OK, five feet maybe five feet four, stocky, dark, with a wife that braids her two plaits together from behind? Indio Sureno. Real short dark, Indio guys speaking one of the many Mayan dialects (Heard something like that recently here in Tampa). Definitely not a Mexican unless he's from the Yucatan or Chiapas. Finally, wearing a Red body suit and funny antennas and prone to expressions like: No contaban con mis astucias! Do not approach under any conditions: It's El Chapulin Colorado! (The international outcry would be more than this country could take.)

Doc, I've seen my share of dark Nortenos in places like Sinaloa, but they fit that first profile to a tee. As you know, one of my missions in life is to explain to Anglo-Tejanos the reasons they are really Nortenos. The only difference is that they speak English (of a sort) and live on this side of the border.


Edited by lirelou - 13 May 2010 at 03:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 03:19
GCLE, the Royal Navy certainly impressed me. They served real beer with their meals. However I wzs no so impressed that I allowed them to subject me to empressment, but then Jefferson is supposed to have taken care of that. (Good thing Vicky wasn't yet Empress of India, or it really could have got confusing.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 13:46
lirelou, I thoroughly enjoyed that explanation. Really! Smile You and Doc could be our gatekeepers to alien identification. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 14:33
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Well, perhaps I too will be hated by the Latinos, adult or otherwise, since I find the term itself insulting! We've had this go-round before over this bit of Frenchified puffery from the 19th century and just its usage should be indicative of a deep desire to obscure the exact nature of the problem and its sources. As for those illiterati calling themselves Republicans, please they are just old line "democrats" who've had an epiphany!


Dr. G., The old Democrats who became Republicans didn't have an epiphany: they had a stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 15:32
I'm biting my tongue here but I just do not have the time since I am in the midst of setting up my brand new computer desktop (have to help the economic recovery somehow) and despite all the claims of a simplified tech and the smooth flow of Windows 7, HELL! The Dolby 5.1 digital surround,  multi speaker sounds system, the 36" touch screen monitor with HD capacity, and the 1 terrabyte hard drive chock full of software and programs I do not want (with the added headache of putting in the software I do want) is taking up all of my time this week. I will be relatively silent until I am ready to blast everyone to pulp on Mafia Wars! Hey, has anyone thought up a new game with the potential to earn the name Coyote! With a yellow brick road winding its way from the steamy Peten to the dry deserts of San Carlos Arizona!?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 16:48
Doc, how about joining Hugo, I and the gang in Risk instead? Ask Hugo for more details. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 17:00
Yes, Doctor G.

You got to use your new computing power for it was meant for. No, I am not talking about porn (Well, I guess you could use it that way, but that is your problem): I am talking about games.

As you already know, AE is nothing put the front for an elaborate number of cliques. One of them is the RISK playing clique that plays online Risk.

I will send you a PM with more info.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 17:50
Seko, Years of living and working in Latin America, in every country but Chile, after getting degrees in LATAM History and Spanish Civil Law from Spanish speaking universities, has to count for something. It is a fascinating region with many cultural and racial variations, but it is also a cesspool for many of those at the bottom of the socio-economic scale. Unfortunately, despite all their positive characteristics, it is precisely that group which finds it hardest to get in. I think the Doc has posted enough to show that he doesn't particularly like our present immigration laws, and neither do I, but they are the law of the land for now, and I'm not putting any money on Obama to change them. 

As for profiling, it makes sense to me. But then, I got stopped and held by the Spanish Guardia Civil for a few hours questioning one day merely because my name is Irish. I had the bad luck of flying into San Sebastian the same day a Libyan flagged ship was found to be carrying arms for the IRA in the harbor. They Guardia were just doing their job, under very difficult conditions, and I suspect that those guarding our present border with Mexico are under similar stress.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 19:03
Like I said you would make a good border guard. You have a magnificent background there lirelou. One that is respected.

As for Obama changing the laws, I suppose there are a lot of things he should do ever since Bush and McCain sat on their rears for 8 years.

As for Border Patrol. More power to them. No disagreement from me. Yet what does that have to do with picking up a Mexican-American in Flagstaff?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 20:12
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

GCLE, the Royal Navy certainly impressed me. They served real beer with their meals. However I wzs no so impressed that I allowed them to subject me to empressment, but then Jefferson is supposed to have taken care of that. (Good thing Vicky wasn't yet Empress of India, or it really could have got confusing.)
 
Hmm...
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2010 at 04:58
GCLE, Lo, I must hang my head in shame. (What the hell happened to my 'google'?) Pardon me while I abase myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2010 at 16:21
The Royal Navy hasn't "impressed" anyone for quite a long time...there are a lot of Limeys fondly looking upon the good old days of Maggie ThatcherEvil Smile...
 
OK... Off topic but then Arizona will crop back up shortly when we discuss "ethnic" studies!
 
 

"One of the functions of the public schools is to take kids of different backgrounds and teach them to treat each other as individuals. And this ethnic studies program does the opposite. It divides kids up by race."

Tom Horne, Superintendent of Arizona Public Schools


Edited by drgonzaga - 15 May 2010 at 16:26
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