| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Art - with a message
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Art - with a message

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Northman View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
~ Scylding ~

Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 10426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Art - with a message
    Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 08:57
Driving along the westcoast of Jutland yesterday, I came across this sculpture in the old fishertown, Ringkøbing.
 
Thought I would share it here, so I took this picture:
 
 
The plaque on the base reads:
 ’Survival of the Fattest’
 
Western Godess, Justitia:
I'm sitting on the back of a man
he is about to collapse under the burden
I will do anything I can to help him
except from climbing down from his back.
Artist:
Jens Galschiøt, 2007
 
 


Edited by Northman - 15 Sep 2011 at 10:22
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 10:35
Is the sculptor saying we should abandon Justice for the sake of food/material prosperity? Dictators are good if they feed people (and make the trains run on time)?
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
~ Scylding ~

Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 10426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 10:58
That is not how I interpret the sculptor's message, gcle - but I actually think the message is very obvious.
 
But we are all different - Live and learn! Smile
 
Lets hear what others think.
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 11:07
I took the 'I' to refer to Justice (and still think that's the obvious reading). I guess it may not have been meant that way: it would be a surprising statement to make in today's world.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 12:11
Capitalism an idea i got from gcle's justice interpretation.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Teaman to the Society of Dilettanti

Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Location: Lindalino
Status: Offline
Points: 2766
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 13:05
A western view of justice for the legacy of colonialism (aid programmes etc) as the black man's burden today? 
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 13:08
Hmm...the "artiste" as a common bully...how pretentious that pedestrian pissant! I see little that could be clasified as "humorous" in that vile caricature mocking the obese. Now that I've said that and evaded the PC Police, my own personal view is that I myself am not too fond of "message art" as political statements, specially within the context of Scandinavia. An attack on Danish society as an expression of judicial injustice on behalf of economic exploiters is a tad tough to swallow. If "social justice" is systemically oppressive in Denmark then boy are we in trouble! If such is a criticism of society in general beyond the environs of Butterland then the whole construct is much too smarmy. That it is anachronistic goes without saying in an European setting, but hey has anyone watched the videos on the urban protests in Italy and noted all those flags with "hammer and sicles"? Now that is truly "retro art"!
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 13:12
PS: The funny part is that the obese chap in that setting bears a striking resemblance to the late German Chancellor Ebert...guess the Danes are still smarting over Holstein and SchleswigWink
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 13:15
I interpret it as justice as a concept has morphed into a system which exploits the vulnerable, weak and poor.

Justice as a concept has ceased in its role of providing fairness and equity, and has become bloated and corrupt, morphing from its original form and substance to instead become the very thing which it ought to stand against.
Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
~ Scylding ~

Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 10426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 13:52
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

I interpret it as justice as a concept has morphed into a system which exploits the vulnerable, weak and poor.

Justice as a concept has ceased in its role of providing fairness and equity, and has become bloated and corrupt, morphing from its original form and substance to instead become the very thing which it ought to stand against.
Thumbs Up
 
That is exactly how I read the message as well CXI.
Maybe with the addition to put an extra emphasis on "justice" to be specified as "western way of justice".
Justice is not an absolute.
 
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 14:59
Poor Justitia, she's been geting a bum rap among the rabble ever since that Billy S. proclaimed "Let's kill all the lawyers". Perhaps the European version requires the introduction of a troublesome technique that sets corporations awrithing: the "Class Action" law suit! The subtle message here is a simple: Economic disparity is a crime and Law ignores it, which--fundamentally--is a function of primary assumptions and actually an atavism with respect to any understanding of functional democracy. The statue says more about what passes for intelligentzia in certain circles these days and required a healthy dose of hypocrisy to elaborate.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
Ramesh V.Naivaruni View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Location: BANGALORE
Status: Offline
Points: 246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ramesh V.Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2011 at 10:47
I feel this art represents rich (fatman) and the other one is poor(lean man), and the statement is amply clear that the Godess in question will  do anything except to climbe down, means that the rich will keep the poor alive but he will be all the time over him,  keep him under his control.  In a way it represents the slave system.
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2011 at 11:01
Some metaphysical confusion going on here between 'justice' and the legal system: nothing says the legal system represents justice just as nothing says the social and economic systems are necessarily just.
 
If the message is that the legal system somewhere is unjust (a) I don't see much point in saying so, it being obvious and (b) the statue doesn't do a good job of saying so, since it implies that 'Justice' means the legal system.
 
Essentially the statue says (or at least what now seems to be a common interpreation of it says) is that justice is unjust, which points directly at the linguistic confusion involved.  


Edited by gcle2003 - 16 Sep 2011 at 11:04
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Srinath Naivaruni View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 16 Jul 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 93
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Srinath Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 10:53
The simple message that can be  read from this   sculpture is that " Justice weighs heavily upon the legal system".  No legal system can afford to  undermine justice  however burdensome it may appear to be.
"There is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow......"
Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
~ Scylding ~

Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 10426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 11:28
I don't think it has anything to do with any legal system - it's about our own misconception of western justice and what it has turned into.
It can be expressed like CXI so eloquently did - or in my simple english:
 
The fat lady (Justitia) represents the selfrighteous western world - or rich wealthy people.
The skinny guy represents the third world - or all poor and weak people.
 
 
The fat lady says she wants to help the skinny guy - but won't get off his back..   =
The western world gives handouts to the third world - but won't stop exploiting the third world...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Northman - 17 Sep 2011 at 11:29
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 15:40
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I don't think it has anything to do with any legal system - it's about our own misconception of western justice and what it has turned into.
It can be expressed like CXI so eloquently did - or in my simple english:
 
The fat lady (Justitia) represents the selfrighteous western world - or rich wealthy people.
The skinny guy represents the third world - or all poor and weak people.
 
 
The fat lady says she wants to help the skinny guy - but won't get off his back..   =
The western world gives handouts to the third world - but won't stop exploiting the third world...
 
That would be fine except the fat lady is labelled 'Justice'. How can anyone claim the statue represents justice? It would make more sense if she was labelled 'injustice'.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
[/QUOTE]
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
~ Scylding ~

Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 10426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 17:48
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I don't think it has anything to do with any legal system - it's about our own misconception of western justice and what it has turned into.
It can be expressed like CXI so eloquently did - or in my simple english:
 
The fat lady (Justitia) represents the selfrighteous western world - or rich wealthy people.
The skinny guy represents the third world - or all poor and weak people.
 
 
The fat lady says she wants to help the skinny guy - but won't get off his back..   =
The western world gives handouts to the third world - but won't stop exploiting the third world...
 
That would be fine except the fat lady is labelled 'Justice'.
She is not - she is "Western Justice" - The Godess Justitia
 
Quote How can anyone claim the statue represents justice?
It doesn't represent justice - the statue is labelled "Survival of the FATTEST"
 
Quote It would make more sense if she was labelled 'injustice'.  
Exactly - the western worlds conception of justice (represented  by the fat lady justitia) = injustice.
 
 
 


Edited by Northman - 17 Sep 2011 at 17:52
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Teaman to the Society of Dilettanti

Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Location: Lindalino
Status: Offline
Points: 2766
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 18:11
I still think I'm (pretty much) right, by the way Big smile
Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
~ Scylding ~

Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 10426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 18:27
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

I still think I'm (pretty much) right, by the way Big smile
 
Hard to tell what is right and what is wrong when different people is interpreting art - but I think you and I think much alike in this case.
 
Smile
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 19:35
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

I still think I'm (pretty much) right, by the way Big smile


What's the relevance of what you said to "survival of the fattest"?
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 19:42
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
That would be fine except the fat lady is labelled 'Justice'.
She is not - she is "Western Justice" - The Godess Justitia
Why should 'Justitia' represent "Western justice"? (Even assuming there is such a thing.) It either means Roman justice, or everybody's justice.
 
In particular I don't think there's any reason at all to consider the statue is condemning the west in particular. The fat sit on the thin everywhere in the world.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
~ Scylding ~

Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 10426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 20:21
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
That would be fine except the fat lady is labelled 'Justice'.
She is not - she is "Western Justice" - The Godess Justitia
Why should 'Justitia' represent "Western justice"? (Even assuming there is such a thing.) It either means Roman justice, or everybody's justice.
 
Because the artist says so on the statue itself, so thats how HE sees it:
 
The plaque on the base reads:
’Survival of the Fattest’
Western Godess, Justitia:
I'm sitting on the back of a man
he is about to collapse under the burden
I will do anything I can to help him
except from climbing down from his back.
Artist:
Jens Galschiøt, 2007
Quote
In particular I don't think there's any reason at all to consider the statue is condemning the west in particular. The fat sit on the thin everywhere in the world.
I think the artist is making a clear statement in condeming how the west is exploiting the third world - disregarding the crumbs the west has to offer to the third world. 
 
I completely agree with your last sentence.
 


Edited by Northman - 17 Sep 2011 at 20:21
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 20:36
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
That would be fine except the fat lady is labelled 'Justice'.
She is not - she is "Western Justice" - The Godess Justitia
Why should 'Justitia' represent "Western justice"? (Even assuming there is such a thing.) It either means Roman justice, or everybody's justice.
 
Because the artist says so on the statue itself, so thats how HE sees it:
Touché !
 
In which case I just disagree with him. The west is no worse than the rest of the world.
 
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
eventhorizon View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 432
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eventhorizon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 21:02
I could not agree more, in fact I would say the fat lady is much nicer than the barbarous Indian or Chinese, if they get a chance to climb on the skinny shoulder of the world and leave the fat lady wallowing in the mud.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 22:21
It's quite funny how people decide what the lesser evils of the world are considering that the vast majority have never experienced it.  We are the fat lady.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 22:53
A clear case of cognitive dissonance! The fat lady is weighing, in retrospect, the value of donuts vs. celery. Fearing abandonment of the former, denial has set in, causing her to fear needing to step down, as that would confirm for her its unseemly effects. The male figure represents medical intervention for her- supportive for the time being, but likely to collapse and be ineffective in a crisis.
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 23:01
Has everyone forgotten that this particular artist has made quite a career out of "message art". His Pillar of Shame with respect to the Beijing government has a well known history and it's been recycled to represent other particualar "causes" from Rome to Chiapas. Needless to say he has not many government friends world-wide!  
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12491
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 23:10
Have I forgotten? To be honest, I didn't even know in the first place.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Teaman to the Society of Dilettanti

Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Location: Lindalino
Status: Offline
Points: 2766
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2011 at 06:10
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

I still think I'm (pretty much) right, by the way Big smile


What's the relevance of what you said to "survival of the fattest"?

You clever moogle you! That is the one slight problem, maybe a loss in meaning translation? Taking my speculation further, 'survival of the fattest' could represent the blinkered view of Western intervention (ie. aid) into the third world, or it could mean that overall it is Western interests that are being served through such interventions. Or maybe the artist is all in a metaphorical tissy, let's not discount that one.

Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Teaman to the Society of Dilettanti

Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Location: Lindalino
Status: Offline
Points: 2766
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2011 at 06:10
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Has everyone forgotten that this particular artist has made quite a career out of "message art". His Pillar of Shame with respect to the Beijing government has a well known history and it's been recycled to represent other particualar "causes" from Rome to Chiapas. Needless to say he has not many government friends world-wide!  

Now now Dr.G, have you been scouring wikipedia again? 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.188 seconds.