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Aryan Iran

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Mangel_Pandey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Dec 2009 at 09:24
was Iran ever Aryan? I would like to analyze this from cultural/religious, historical and racial/genetic perspective.

I can only speak for the Parsees of India. Racially they are indistinguishable from the High Caste Hindus except for their Iranid and Armenid admixture. In Bombay they look very Armenoid f.e Ratan Tata

"Aryan" Parsees

Parizaad Zorabian





Jennifer Kotwal





Parsees are believed to have mixed with Vaishya castes extensively which might explain their R2ydna frequency.

Edited by Mangel_Pandey - 02 Dec 2009 at 09:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2009 at 05:51
What do you define as "Aryan," seems like a very loosely based concept to begin with, with a lot of derivatives. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2009 at 06:30
Funny, they all loked "Spanish" to me!Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2009 at 06:41
The Spanish are Ayan Indians, they came to Spain via Atlantis. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2009 at 10:06
First girl looks like southern Iranians and second one just looks Indian to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2009 at 12:23
Hey, the must be gypsies! Besides, the way things are going here we could just fold this thread into the "Stereotypes" discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mangel_Pandey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2009 at 21:50
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

What do you define as "Aryan,"


Anything and everything wholly unadulterated Indo Iranian.

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

seems like a very loosely based concept to begin with, with a lot of derivatives.


Agreed. Unfortunately lot of racism involved too.

I don't mean Nazi Aryan but the "Aryan" that Iranians, Pakistanis and Indian know of. The racial type and culture associated with the Indo Iranian tribes.

For example Zoroastrianism would be an "Aryan" religion even though its not exactly pagan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mangel_Pandey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2009 at 21:52
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Funny, they all loked "Spanish" to me!Shocked


Or can look Syrian/Lebanese too. Alot of overlapping of features between wheat/olive/milk-slightly-dipped-in-coffee-coloured West Eurasians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mangel_Pandey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2009 at 21:57
Originally posted by Suren Suren wrote:

First girl looks like southern Iranians


No she's does'nt. Not quite. She has slight Iranid influence but is mostly NordIndid.

Originally posted by Suren Suren wrote:

and second one just looks Indian to me.


I would accept Pakistani/North West Indian but from Madras, Bengal or Chotia Nagpur no way, atleast not for the pariahs...

That's like trying to find diamond in a coal mine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mangel_Pandey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2009 at 22:00
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Hey, the must be gypsies! Besides, the way things are going here we could just fold this thread into the "Stereotypes" discussion.


Alot of Iranians on the internet seem to feel they are "fallen Aryans" who got invaded by Semites and forced to adopt Islam. And no I am not talking about white nationalist sites alone. They seem to have this anti-Arab attitude in real life too.

I want to know if theres any truth to it. This "glorious Aryan past" that they claim.

Edited by Mangel_Pandey - 04 Dec 2009 at 22:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2009 at 00:54
Look, I assign all of this nonsense to one Reza Shah, who picked up both the Racist and Militarist bugs from the guys who brought us World Wars I and II. There was no "glorious Aryan past" because the Aryan Nation exists solely in the imagination of whackos and people grinding a variety of axes. Place the whole in the cauldron which brings us thousands of Italians marching down American streets on Columbus Day! An Italian discovered America (you even have two if we mention a certain Vespucci), which is more or less a load of crap!
 
We can wax poetic over rock carvings and holy books, but the fact of the matter is our notion of "nation" had no reality until late in the 18th century. Chalk another point against Romantic historicism. As for the supposed distaste for Arabs by Iranians could religious conflict have something to do with it...when people start calling each other heretics all hell breaks loose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2009 at 12:58
Reza Shah? Try Darius I for his blatant racialism on his Naqshe Rostam inscription:

I am Darius the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage.

Poor Reza Shah.  All he wanted to do was modernise his country before it was attacked by the Commie-Anglo alliance from both north and south.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2009 at 14:05
Made me think of Helen Reddy..."I am woman! Hear me roar!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 01:17
racism is much an european culture than iranian. a brief study of iranian past  shows the respect for language and religion  of all the  other nations were very important in achemenied era. the scripture left from Cyrus the great  tell us  how he respected all non iranian nations. the word aryan was used  by europeans  to tie themselves to an ancient great culture like old aryan or better said iranian culture. being aryan was more a culture than a race.
what the late reza shah did was ending feodalism and he united the nation under the name of iran which presents all of iranian groups living in iran like pers+ azari+kurds + lurs and more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 03:08
Another effort to transport modern sensibilities into the distant past. Guess what, it still does not work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 07:18
drgonzaga.
there is no present or future without a past. we are tied to our past wether we want it or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2010 at 21:24
actually we have a new ARYA_MEHR(the light of aryans) in iran . Mr ahmadinejad is the head of most reknown aryan country and according to himself !!! he is emitting lightTongue which nobody else can seeLOL

Edited by kalhor - 11 Jan 2010 at 19:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2010 at 02:26
a very little% of iranian population have a north european look  some time  with blue or green(mostly green) eyes and light brown hair or even red hair. i am puzzeled if these people are resulte of mix with forign european elements or are rest of some group of people which lived in iran in the very ancient time. the hakhamanesh kings which called themselves aryans were apearently not white skin blue eyed people, 

Edited by kalhor - 14 Jan 2010 at 04:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thorvald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2010 at 01:50
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

racism is much an european culture than iranian.
 
Wrong. Racism is universal. Its exist among every ethnic group on this world, regardless of race, religion or culture. Saying Europeans are more racist then others is biasted.
 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2010 at 03:41
i agree with you that racism in more simple form exist everywhere, but modern racism and in  oficial form was more used in modern europe like having racial institutes etc. 
 in old persia racism was more based on cultural base rather than ethnical , because the society was  multi ethnic- . persian+medes+ summerian+akkadian+ jews +elamits plus a plenty of other less minorities lived in the old iran and laws was written  in at least 4 languages and it was 2500 years agoBig smile an aryan was some one  a noble in act not a certain race .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2010 at 03:54
They all look Californian, wait Arizonian... perhaps, New York? I am 100% certain I saw them there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taytides Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2010 at 21:12
hi guys since i cant start my own thread i will use this one.i need some urgent info on Pakistanis.
i am doing some little research on them.like who are Pakistanis and their ethnicity?they dont look like indians.they look like turks,greeks and persian.are they aryans?most of them have red pigment too in their skin.does longitudes and latitudes have anything to do with their whitish complexion or  their hellenic history has a part??
 
 
 


Edited by taytides - 12 May 2010 at 21:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2010 at 02:14
- You can start a thread it just depends on which part of the forum. If you need any help let one of the staff members know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2010 at 08:51
Originally posted by taytides taytides wrote:

hi guys since i cant start my own thread i will use this one.i need some urgent info on Pakistanis.
i am doing some little research on them.like who are Pakistanis and their ethnicity?they dont look like indians.they look like turks,greeks and persian.are they aryans?most of them have red pigment too in their skin.does longitudes and latitudes have anything to do with their whitish complexion or  their hellenic history has a part??
 
 
 


Welcome Taytides!

Well, without having done a deeper research on it, I would guess that you have a bit of everything. Just maybe add Tocharian to the list and limit the Hellenic influence (Greece didn't fell on Pakistan really nor did Alexander and co turn it to a huge bed).


Edited by Flipper - 15 May 2010 at 08:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vajra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2010 at 17:41
The word "Aryan" is a western term the actual word is "Arya" in Sanskrit " & Airya in Avestan. It has nothing to do with race, people now days only use this term in delusional & imaginative sense since it was used by the Nazi's as a racial term to identify with the Northern European. 


"an ethnologist who speaks of Aryan race, Aryan blood, Aryan eyes and hair, is as great a sinner as a linguist who speaks of a dolichocephalic dictionary or a brachycephalic grammar" and that "the blackest Hindus represent an earlier stage of Aryan speech and thought than the fairest Scandinavians".

- Max Muller 

He is the person who popularized the term and "Aryan Theory" in 1800's. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2010 at 00:35

The Aryan Invasion TheoTry is False - Genetic EvidencT

Th
  • No trace of “demographic disruption” in the North-West of the subcontinent between 4500 and 800 BCE; this negates the possibility of any massive intrusion, by so-called Indo-Aryans or other populations, during that period.
  • Deep late Pleistocene genetic link between contemporary Europeans and Indians, provided by the mtDNA haplogroup U, which encompasses roughly a fifth of mtDNA lineages of both populations. Our estimate for this split [between Europeans and Indians] is close to the suggested time for the peopling of Asia and the first expansion of anatomically modern humans in Eurasia and likely pre-dates their spread to Europe.”
  • Haplogroup U, being common to North Indian and “Caucasoid” populations, was found in tribes of eastern India such as the Lodhas and Santals, which would not be the case if it had been introduced through Indo-Aryans. Such is also the case of the haplogroup M, another marker frequently mentioned in the early literature as evidence of an invasion: in reality, haplogroup M occurs with a high frequency, averaging about 60%, across most Indian population groups, irrespective of geographical location of habitat. Tribal populations have higher frequencies of haplogroup M than caste populations.”
- U.S. anthropologists Kenneth Kennedy, John Lukacs and Brian Hemphill.

  • Migrations into India “did occur, but rarely from western Eurasian populations.”  There are low frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and northern India. Thus, the ‘caucasoid’ features of south Asians may best be considered ‘pre-caucasoid’ — that is,  part of a diverse north or north-east African gene pool that yielded separate origins for western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago.
- U.S. biological anthropologist Todd R. Disotell.

  • There is a fundamental unity of mtDNA lineages in India, in spite of the extensive cultural and linguistic diversity, pointing to a relatively small founding group of females in India. Most of the mtDNA diversity observed in Indian populations is between individuals within populations; there is no significant structuring of haplotype diversity by socio-religious affiliation, geographical location of habitat or linguistic affiliation.
- Scientists Susanta Roychoudhury and thirteen others studying 644 samples of mtDNA from ten Indian ethnic groups.

  • mtDNA haplogroup “M” common to India (with a frequency of 60%), Central and Eastern Asia (40% on average), and even to American Indians; however, this frequency drops to 0.6% in Europe, which is “inconsistent with the ‘general Caucasoidness’ of Indians.” This shows, once again, that “the Indian maternal gene pool has come largely through an autochthonous history since the Late Pleistocene.” U haplogroup frequency 13% in India, almost 14% in North-West Africa, and 24% from Europe to Anatolia. “Indian and western Eurasian haplogroup U varieties differ profoundly; the split has occurred about as early as the split between the Indian and eastern Asian haplogroup M varieties. The data show that both M and U exhibited an expansion phase some 50,000 years ago, which should have happened after the corresponding splits.” In other words, there is a genetic connection between India and Europe, but a far more ancient one than was thought.
  • If one were to extend methodology used to suggest an Aryan invasion based on Y-Dna statistics to populations of Eastern and Southern India, one would be led to an exactly opposite result: “the straightforward suggestion would be that both Neolithic (agriculture) and Indo-European languages arose in India and from there, spread to Europe.” The authors do not defend this thesis, but simply guard against “misleading interpretations” based on limited samples and faulty methodology.
  • The Chenchu tribe is genetically close to several castes, there is a “lack of clear distinction between Indian castes and tribes.

- Twenty authors headed by Kivisild - Archaeogenetics of Europe - 2000.

  • “Language families present today in India, such as Indo-European, Dravidic and Austro-Asiatic, are all much younger than the majority of indigenous mtDNA lineages found among their present-day speakers at high frequencies. It would make it highly speculative to infer, from the extant mtDNA pools of their speakers, whether one of the linguistically defined groups in India should be considered more ‘autochthonous’ than any other in respect of its presence in the subcontinent.”

- Mait Metspalu and fifteen co-authors analyzing 796 Indian and 436 Iranian mtDNAs. 2001.

  • Geneticist Toomas Kivisild led a study (2003) in which comparisons of the diversity of R1a1 (R-M17) haplogroup in Indian, Pakistani, Iranian, Central Asian, Czech and Estonian populations. The study showed that the diversity of R1a1 in India, Pakistan, and Iran, is higher than in Czechs (40%), and Estonians[12].
  • Kivisild came to the conclusion that "southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup": "Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup".[12]
  • “Given the geographic spread and STR diversities of sister clades R1 and R2, the latter of which is restricted to India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern central Asia, it is possible that southern and western Asia were the source for R1 and R1a differentiation.     ”

- Kivilsid - 2003


  • Based on 728 samples covering 36 Indian populations, it announced in its very title how its findings revealed a “Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists,” i.e. of the Indo-Aryans, and stated its general agreement with the previous study. For instance, the authors rejected the identification of some Y-DNA genetic markers with an “Indo-European expansion,” an identification they called “convenient but incorrect ... overly simplistic.” To them, the subcontinent’s genetic landscape was formed much earlier than the dates proposed for an Indo-Aryan immigration: “The influence of Central Asia on the pre-existing gene pool was minor. ... There is no evidence whatsoever to conclude that Central Asia has been necessarily the recent donor and not the receptor of the R1a lineages.”
  • “Dravidian” authorship of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization rejected indirectly, since it noted, “Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus....” They found, in conclusion, “overwhelming support for an Indian origin of Dravidian speakers.”
  • The frequencies of R2 seems to mirror the frequencies of R1a (i.e. both lineages are strong and weak in the same social and linguistic subgroups). This may indicate that both R1a and R2 moved into India at roughly the same time or co-habited, although more research is needed. R2 is very rare in Europe.

Sanghamitra Sengupta, L. Cavalli-Sforza, Partha P. Majumder, and P. A. Underhill. - 2006.


  • “The sharing of some Y-chromosomal haplogroups between Indian and Central Asian populations is most parsimoniously explained by a deep, common ancestry between the two regions, with diffusion of some Indian-specific lineages northward.”
  • “The Y-chromosomal data consistently suggest a largely South Asian origin for Indian caste communities and therefore argue against any major influx, from regions north and west of India, of people associated either with the development of agriculture or the spread of the Indo-Aryan language family.”
  • “Southern castes and tribals are very similar to each other in their Y-chromosomal haplogroup compositions.” As a result, “it was not possible to confirm any of the purported differentiations between the caste and tribal pools,” a conclusion that directly clashes with the Aryan invasion theory which purports that male European Aryans chased tribal adivasis and aboriginals down south.

Sanghamitra Sahoo,  T. Kivisild and V. K. Kashyap. -  2006.


  • When Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa, he first reached South-West Asia around 75,000 BP, and from here, went on to other parts of the world. In simple terms, except for Africans, all humans have ancestors in the North-West of  the Indian peninsula. In particular, one migration started around 50,000 BP towards  the Middle East and Western Europe: “indeed, nearly all Europeans — and by extension, many Americans — can trace their ancestors to only four mtDNA lines, which appeared between 10,000 and 50,000 years ago and originated from South Asia.”

-Lluís Quintana-Murci,Vincent Macaulay,Stephen Oppenheimer,Michael Petraglia,and their associates

  • “For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17(Y-DNA Haplogroup R1a, associated with the male Aryan invasion theory) and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a ‘male Aryan invasion’ of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe.”

-Stephen Oppenheimer

  • A (2009) study headed by geneticist Swarkar Sharma, collated information for 2809 Indians (681 Brahmins, and 2128 tribals and schedule castes). The results showed "no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals". Brahmins from West Bengal showed the highest frequency (72.22%) of Y-haplogroups R1a1* hinting that it may have been a founder lineage for this caste group. The authors found it significant that the Saharia tribe of Madhya Pradesh had not only 28.07% R1a1, but also 22.8% R1a*, out of 57 people, with such a high percentage of R1a* never having been found before. Based on STR variance the estimated age of R1a* in India was 18,478 years, and for R1a1 it was 13,768 years.
  • In its conclusions the study proposed "the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins" as well as "the origin of R1a1* ... in the Indian subcontinent".
  • S. Sharma, argued for an Indian origin of R1a1 lineage among Brahmins, by pointing out the highest incidence of R1a*, ancestral clade to R1a1, among Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharias, an Indian tribe.
- Sharma et al 2009

  • "This paper rewrites history... there is no north-south divide."
  • "There is no truth to the Aryan-Dravidian theory as they came hundreds or thousands of years after the ancestral north and south Indians had settled in India."
  • The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally upper and lower castes and tribal groups. "The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society."
  • "Impossible to distinguish between castes and tribes since their genetics proved they were not systematically different."
  • The present-day Indian population is a mix of ancient north and south bearing the genomic contributions from two distinct ancestral populations - the Ancestral North Indian (ANI) and the Ancestral South Indian (ASI).
  • "The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, "At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India."
  • The study also helps understand why the incidence of genetic diseases among Indians is different from the rest of the world. Singh said that 70% of Indians were burdened with genetic disorders and the study could help answer why certain conditions restricted themselves to one population. For instance, breast cancer among Parsi women, motor neuron diseases among residents of Tirupati and Chittoor, or sickle cell anaemia among certain tribes in central India and the North-East can now be understood better, said researchers.
  • The researchers, who are now keen on exploring whether Eurasians descended from ANI, find in their study that ANIs are related to western Eurasians, while the ASIs do not share any similarity with any other population across the world.
Thangaraj and Singh at a press conference.

"Reconstructing Indian Population History"
- David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price & Lalji Singh
- 2009
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xorto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 11:04
Parses definitly have definitly mixed with local woman. You can see it on their mtDNA
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Reginmund View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 00:41
I think this debate only serves to obscure the fact that those were some delicious girls.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
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