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Atlantis was Thera

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    Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 05:29
The explosion of Thera or Santorini volcano in an island close to Crete, and the destruction of the populations in the island, is the more likely event that triggered the myth of Atlantis. Let's argue about that

More to read about it.

http://www.ancient.eu.com/article/132/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 09:07
Or Atlantis was a purely imagined land. There has been so many "real" lands, either now under sealevels because they rised, or in some cases because lands "sink" (the ecperts says northern parts of "my"country rises, the southern parts gradually "sinks". That does not mean they have anything to do with the Atlantis myth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 09:16
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Or Atlantis was a purely imagined land. There has been so many "real" lands, either now under sealevels because they rised, or in some cases because lands "sink" (the ecperts says northern parts of "my"country rises, the southern parts gradually "sinks". That does not mean they have anything to do with the Atlantis myth.


That theorem has been floated before. As many propoments as detractors.

Ref your first sentence. A classic example was Thompson Island allegedly in the South Atlantic.

'' Thompson Island was a phantom island in the South Atlantic. According to the Global Volcanism Program, it was thought to be located about 70 km (43 mi; 38 nmi) north-northeast of Bouvet Island,[1]''

'' If Thompson ever existed, it is probable that it disappeared in a volcanic eruption sometime in the 1890s,[2] though in 1997 it was reported that the sea depth at the supposed location is greater than 2,400 metres (7,900 ft; 1.5 mi), rendering the existence of a submarine volcano uncertain.[1]''


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_Island_(South_Atlantic)


http://www.volcano.si.edu/volcano.cfm?vn=386030


"Historical & Geological Notes on Bouvetoya''


http://www.bloosee.com/infopoints/-/-/thompson-island/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 09:16
Problems with Thera/Santorini:
- wrong size: Atlantis was a large island "larger than Asia & Libya together" (though some claim it is "between" not "larger than"). Atlantis had a huge plain, 10 kings regions, many species of animals, mountains.
- wrong direction: Atlantis was in the (far) west, beyond the pillars of Hercules.
- wrong Pillars: the Pillars of Hercules of the account are clearly the ones at Gibraltar/Gades/Tartessos.
- wrong sea: Atlantis was in the Atlantic, in the "real ocean" not in the inner mediterranean indentation.
- wrong distance: Atlantis was not too close ("remotest", at "end(s) of world", "at a distant point in the
Atlantic Ocean", "unmixed with other mortals"), (nor too far (few days sail from Africa)).
- wrong dates: Atlantis was 900 years before Solon/Sais, or ca 1400s bc (ca 12th dynasty in true Egyptian chronology). Thera's date is disputed between archaeologists (and Egyptologists). (See olive leaf/branch revises dating of Thera awhile ago.
- wrong catastrophe: Atlantis "sunk" in terrible flood(s) & quake(s), not exploded in a volcanic eruption. Atlantis disappeared except mud.
- no remains: there are no remains of Atlantis civilistaion found in Thera. "Thera & Crete are barren".
- moreover Atlantis is found to match Tiahuanaco / Peru/Bolivia / (South) America : has matches for lots of things of the Atlantis account including the large plain. Furthermore, the Inca picture from the coricancha proves Atlantis is Tiahuanaco/Peru:





Some do suggest Atlantis connects with Keftiou which may connect with Crete, but Keftiou is not Thera/Santorini, and the exact relationship between Atlantis, Keftiou and Crete is not totally clear/certain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 12:30
Strictly speaking Atlantis was a work of fiction. However, Plato based his morality tale on the reports he'd heard of the Thera explosion, which he then relocated to the Atlantic which at the time was unknown. Plato was therefore writing a sort of ancient Greek science fiction.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 17:05
Let's argue about the famous "Pillars of Hercules" that Plato names in the Timaeus. It seems Plato was confusing a contemporary name with some location of 900 years before. Something that likely happens. A debate on the topic.

http://www.decadevolcano.net/santorini/atlantis.htm




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 06:14
There were 12 pillars of Herucles/Melkarth/[Gilgamesh]. Herodotus (before Plato, after Solon) said the Atlantic/Ocean[us]/sand-belt/Celts/Tartessos/Erythea/Neco's ships voyage was/were beyond the pillars of Hercules (& Mediterranean). The Atlantis account also seems pretty certain that the pillar meant were the Gibraltar/Gades ones. Gades / Tartessos &/or Huelva (herculis insula / herkleia) has Hercules connections.
(Perhaps also compare "the name of an head of land in Britaine called _Promontorium Herculis_"?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 08:06
I wrote this in another forum. There are several problems with the search for Atlantis, not only the question "where", but as well "when" and "if at all".

"........
There are several curious points in the Atlantis myth. First, Atlantis shall have exist already 1000 years before the foundation of Athens. Athens itself shall have existed already 9000 year before Solon. Egypt is said to be 1000 years younger than Athens.
These story was told to Solon by a priest from the temple of neith in sais.
Platon has this story from Kritias as it seems. Kritias lived between 460 and 400. Platon was born around 430. He probably wrote his Kritias in the 350th. So what did Platon really know? Kritias itself shall have heard the story from his grandfather, who got the story from his father dropides, who shall have been Archon in 593/2. Solon shall have lived between 640 and 560. So Dropides was nearly as old as Solon. that makes 180 years between the birth of kritias and his great-grandfather. That's a too great difference to be true. It can only match if Solon lived at a later date, which some scientists suppose.
So let us take a year 590 BC (the suppose year of Solon's visit in Egypt) for the story Platon is telling us. As I wrote above, the story was told by a priest of neith in Sais. This town is settled since 4000 BC, but a temple is just know in the Middle Kingdom (after 2100 BC). It was the temple of Nb.T SW, which is perhaps identical with Neith (Nj.T). She is known already in the 1st dynasty around 3000 BC, but she got more prestige in the new Kingdom since 1550 BC.

We have now the problem, that Platon writes, that Egypt existed already 8000 years before Solon and Athens 1000 years before Egypt and that Atlantis existed even 1000 years before that.
So Atlantis evolved around 10600 BC, during the Dryas, a time when the Tundras returned, a stadial. Shall we really expect a great empire, that had conquered nearly the whole mediterranian Sea? If we follow Platon, Athens existed since 9600 BC. As far as we know today are there neolithic artefacts already from 7500 BC, a city, especially one which could defeat a great power like Atlantis existed not before the mycenian era. Egypt, one of the oldest cultures is as well not 8600 years old. It goes back to 4000 BC, but as i said, the old kingdom doesn't start before 2700 and even the 1st dynasty is not older than 3000 BC.

So we see, before we search for Atlantis, we should solve all this problems. One solution would be to change the 8000-10,000 years for lunar month, which would give us a time between the 14th and 13th century. If we date Solon later, the 12th century.

This would bring us to the sea people era. If we remember Thera, the end of the mycenian and minoan era, then in Platon's story about Atlantis (or in those of the priests of Sais) it is possible, that several incidents melted together in a single story, like we have it in the Artus-legend or those of the Nibelungs..... "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 09:46
Beorna,

there is no problem if it was real, nor where, nor when. If you read my paper (link in profile) you would see that i & others have answered all these. Sure there are still a couple of minor difficult to resolve issues like the Solon to Plato bit in what you posted (which I did see on Historum before). But I can't understand how people can place one or two minor unresolved things like that as more important or over-riding tons of evidences that it was real and is found where and when it was. They spend so much effort arch-critically mis/analysing just those couple of things but not the rest of the account?

The Account says it was true history not fiction. (Plato first used the different meaning words legend and mythology). They found the spring at Athens exactly as the account says.

What you write about dates is true/good, but it doesn't prove Atlantis is lie, rather it proves that modern insistence as to the meaning/interpretation & dating of the Account details is wrong.
Atlantis was 900 years (not 9000 years) before 26th dynasty or ca 1400s bc. Plato's 9000 years matches Herodotus 900 years for Moeris. Confirmed by Hyperboreans lived "1000" years (which is really 100/110/120 years). Mavor's 9000 yrs = 900 yrs, and Spanuth's 9000 years = 9000 months both reconcile with a 10 month calendar year. (Both confirmed by 10 kings, etc). Atlantis must be contemporary with bronze age and Minoan/Mycenaean Athens and Sais of Egypt so can't be literal 9000/8000 years. 3 Hermes Set Shu/Num Thoth seemingly may roughly match Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom, New Kingdom. Shu = Atlas, Num = Amun, both 12th dynasty. Hercules of Herodotus also matches 12th dynasty (900 years).

Yes there does seem some connection between the Atlanteans and the sea peoples [there was also cocaine in new kingdom mummies], but Atlantis sinking can't be so late. Orthodox Egyptian chronology is wrong, they have 12th dynasty at 1800s bc when Herodotus said it was only 1400s bc (900 years before 26th dyn) [confirmed by other evidences like Moses ca 1400s was seemingly in 12th dynasty too. Atlantis account says Sais was 800 years before Amasis 2 which matches Saites (Hyksos) just after 12th dynasty (900 yrs).]

My analysis/theory is that Atlantis was before end of Minoan/Mycenaean & Sea Peoples: table (5 columns)

egyptology: 1 moeris (12th/ok), 2 saites/minoan (15/16th), 3 , 4 seapeoples (19/20th/nk), 4b cocaine (19th/21st), 5 persians (26/30th);
herodotus: 1 moeris (900), 2 anysis (700), 5a sais (26th), 5b persians (27th);
plato: 1 atlantis (900), 1/2 sais (800), 5a solon/sais (26th);
herodotus: [1 phoenicians from red sea?], 2 argos/phoenicians, colchis , 3 trojan, 5b persians;
spanish/hoeh: 1 antaeus/hercules, 2 apher , 3 trojan war , 4 sea powers/pelasgians, 5b persians.
herodotus: hercules [900], dionysos [800], 5a sais (26th), 5b persians (27th).
3 hermes: 0 set, 1 shu/num, 3/4 thoth.
bible: 1 Moses [12th dyn], 2 judges [hyksos], 3 david [18th], 4 shishak [19th], 5a neco (26th), 5b persians (27th).
rare source/s: 1 atlantis, (one generation,) 2 argonauts, (one generation,) 3 trojan war.
rohl: 1 moses/12-13th, 2 inachus/hyksos, 3 trojan war, 4 seapeoples, 5 persians;
athens/aspin: [0 ogyges], 1 deucalion/atlantis, 2 theseus/minoan, 3 trojan war/menestheus, 4 return heraclids/dorians, 5 persians;
jerome: 1 cecrops/moses, 3 trojan/samson, 5 persia.


* The 1-5 numbers in each roughly match, eg sea peoples seem to match pelasgians/sea powers/thalassocracies (& return of Heraclids).

King Arthur's/Artus maybe combines various things yet we found the "12"/9 battles sites match the 9 Saxon Shore forts nevertheless.

The Atlantis account was from Solon not Plato. No other scholars i know claim Plato was only 5 years old. The account doesn't say he was only 5 either. There is also uncertainty about who the grandfather &/or greatgrandfather of Critias was: some versions say one, some say other (opposite way around). So the bit about time between Solon and Plato is not so strong.

Nb.t_sw is not necessarily Neith/Nj.t .

(How many times I have tried to explain this all already before on numberous forums threads (and is all in my blog Atlantis paper). Is my writing really so un-readible?)

-----

Archaeological synchronisms of Minoan/Mycenaean & Egyptian:
1st/(oldkdm/[6?])...........earmin
12/13/midkdm...............midmin2
khian/hyksos..........................midmin3
18/amarna/nk...ht?/myc,"mm3",lm1a;lm1b,lm2,lm3a;l h3a/b,lh1,lh2
19.............lh3b-c.

eh mh lh = early/middle/late helladic
em mm lm = early / middle/late minoan
ear/mid/lat = early middle late
min = minoan
myc = mycenaean
ok mk nk = old/middle/new kingdom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 10:31
Quote The Account says it was true history not fiction. (Plato first used the different meaning words legend and mythology). They found the spring at Athens exactly as the account says.

It might well do, but it would be more accurate to say the story was 'based on' real history as preserved by Egyptian priests. However, to claim that Atlantis is 'real' simply doesn't work. People have searched for the island 'larger than libya' just about in every corner of the world imaginable and still can't find it with all the deep water sonar and satellite imaging we have available - look how much detail about ancient Egypt has recently come to light via satellite photographs.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 20:41
If I would invent a story, maybe i would claim it was a true story, too!?
I don't want to say, that Atlantis is fiction. Nobody can claim this with certainty nor the opposite. But just compare it with the Artus myth. We have several candidates for a real Artus from a L. Sartorius Castus via Riothamus to Ambrosius Aurelianus, Enniaun Girt or some of the british rulers with names similar to Artus like Arthrwys ap Meurig. We have several camelots, from camelodunum to Cadbury Castle. What is the real Artus? Was there a real Artus?
Maybe Thera or the decline of Mycenean culture and the sea people storm are idol for the story, but maybe not and it was another city or culture or a mix from different events, well or at least just invented.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2014 at 06:14

No offense meant now or before but they can't just claim it is invented or melted or morality tale without proving it. Why is it that new/alternatives have to answer such "high standards" scepticism and heavily prove every jot and tiddle when the orthodox/old status quo don't have to apply the same high standards to theirs or prove theirs? (Textual criticism is not enough, and is fallible, for example compare the textual criticisms of "Nennius'" 12 battles of king Arthur which turned-out to be wrong because we found the 12/9 battles match the saxon shore forts.)

What really is the difference between saying it is based on real history preserved by Egyptians other than mere degree or convenience? The Atlantis account does say that it went atlantis -> egyptian -> greek -> english anyway, except that we say it is a genuine preservation/passing-on where as you imply it is not quite so genuine accurate preservation/passing-on.

Deep water sonar?: Atlantis didn't literally sink, it just genuinely seemed to sink when it really continentally shifted Satellite imaging? Please web/net search on geoglyphs in Titicaca/Altiplano area and you will see plenty of satellite images of the channels etc of the great plain of Atlantis account. Look up Posnansky's diagrams of Tiahuanaco and you will see concentric circles design of Tiahuanaco, etc.

The fact that Atlantis is larger than libya & asia shows that it can't be on ocean floor because no sunken large land masses found in oceans, and that it must be one of the existing continents (not a sunken one nor just a small island/city). Can't just be "a needle in a haystack" as one source put it. Of the existing continents it can only be Americas.

Yes but the recent Egyptian satellite imaging discoveries on the contrary proves that scholars can be and were wrong/ignorant and didn't know or believe things until it was finally found/noticed/proven.

It is not true to say that it doesn't work that Atlantis is real, nor that all people couldn't find it since it has been found by some of us (Tiahuanaco) and proven is real.


We don't know who "Arthur/Artus" was yet but we have found the 12 battles sites including Badon, we also may have found when he was (between 495/514 and 556 (or 591) in ASC). Camelot is not certain yet but Artus' alternative capital the city of Legions is Richborough/Rutupi near Dover. (Please check out my blog post on the 12 battles of Arthur. I know this is off topic but just answering and showing as an example how sceptics are wrong to be so critical of traditional sources.)

No one even accepts the Inca picture I posted as evidence it is real and is found in South America? If you knew/read the atlantis account you would see that the Inca picture has a number of things that the Account has: the couple is Poseidon & Clito (or Evenor & Leucippe (or they may be sun & moon since leucippe is white horse)); the sea (lake titicaca), the canal, the plain & ditch & channels, the concentric circles city (2x, on left and on right), the cliff, the small hill (Akapana), 2 crops a year ("stars/sun & clouds/moon = summer & winter"), mountians?, forest? [and 7 cities/islands/mountains?]

ps sorry i confused beorna's other forum post with someone else's on historum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2014 at 07:46
While many of us speculate about where Atlantis was situated, many more of us question whether or not it ever really existed.
 
Regardless of what TruthWill writes, it's his opinion after all, his saying it doesn't make it so.
 
IF Atlantis ever existed, I would be far more inclined to place it adjacent to Gibraltar than in the Americas, or for that matter, Satorini.
 
Like most people, I await proof that Atlantis ever existed.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2014 at 11:46
The Atlantis saga is hearsaying, multiple hearsaying. maybe the Egyptians (or somebody else) thought, that such a dominant people like those of Atlantis must have ruled a great island/continent and because they didn't believe, that this could have been in the Mediterranian sea, they placed these continent outside the mediterranian sea.
Atlantis could (if it ever existed) be the Mycenian or Minoan culture or the hettites or another culture that broke down, the destruction of Atlatis could have been caused by a natural catastrophy like a vulcanic event (see Thera) or an earthquake or an Tsunami, maybe it was destroyed by a competiting power and so all trading connections with Egypt were lost. Well, even Egypt had breakdowns in its history. maybe between the Middle and the New kingdom the relation was lost. Nobody know, its simply speculation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2014 at 05:48
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

The Atlantis saga is hearsaying, multiple hearsaying. maybe the Egyptians (or somebody else) thought, that such a dominant people like those of Atlantis must have ruled a great island/continent and because they didn't believe, that this could have been in the Mediterranian sea, they placed these continent outside the mediterranian sea.
Atlantis could (if it ever existed) be the Mycenian or Minoan culture or the hettites or another culture that broke down, the destruction of Atlatis could have been caused by a natural catastrophy like a vulcanic event (see Thera) or an earthquake or an Tsunami, maybe it was destroyed by a competiting power and so all trading connections with Egypt were lost. Well, even Egypt had breakdowns in its history. maybe between the Middle and the New kingdom the relation was lost. Nobody know, its simply speculation.
 
 
I think some people believe that if you say it often enough, it will become true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arlington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2014 at 08:51
Or if they don't they invent another myth.

best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2014 at 14:25
Originally posted by Arlington Arlington wrote:

Or if they don't they invent another myth.

best.
As they say in New Yuk, "Coitanly".
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