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Atlantis

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2019 at 22:27
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Just for a moment, accept what Plato wrote as fact. That being the case, Atlantis was located near to the Pillars of Heracles, the Straits of Gibralta.

Personally, I don't know that Atlantis ever existed.
Hi, 
Isn't saying "Pillars of Heracles" equivalent to saying the known world ?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2019 at 22:42
"- Atlantis was beyond/by the pillars of Hercules. "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". protu "before" the pillars. The pillars of Hercules were the furtherest point of the world, and were at  least as far as Gibraltar where they have usually been thought to be. Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west. (Peruvian was one of the furtherest ancient high cultures of the world.)"

If it is as you say then Atlantis would be oriented towards north America. The latitude at the Yucatan/Florida vs Peru is quite a drop South. 

Even if Peruvians were high enough to see distant lands, the Athenians were not and they would be looking at the bending of the horizon even with a potential visual telescopic enhancement. 

 "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

Timagenes can only talk about the middle of the ocean as far as he understands it. If Atlantis is the middle of the ocean that Timagenes knows, the land inside pillars, then he means the Atlantic. If he claims to see it from Greece then he must be at close latitude,?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2019 at 09:41
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

"- Atlantis was beyond/by the pillars of Hercules. "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". protu "before" the pillars. The pillars of Hercules were the furtherest point of the world, and were at  least as far as Gibraltar where they have usually been thought to be. Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west. (Peruvian was one of the furtherest ancient high cultures of the world.)"

If it is as you say then Atlantis would be oriented towards north America. The latitude at the Yucatan/Florida vs Peru is quite a drop South. 

Even if Peruvians were high enough to see distant lands, the Athenians were not and they would be looking at the bending of the horizon even with a potential visual telescopic enhancement. 


It depends where the pillars of Hercules were. My theory based on various evidences is that the pillars were at the most distant point of the world and were in Peru/Andes.
(Peru is more distant (west & south) than Mexico, though North America is centred further west than South America.)

The Atlantis Account is from Sais/Egypt not from Athens/Greece.

South America has more support than North America. For example the Atlas mountains are in Africa (beside South America) not in Europe (beside North America). (The Atlas also roughly mirror the Andes.) Also, Atlantis/Atlas is implied to be south-west of Gades in Spain in Europe.
According to one translator's version of the Atlantis Account it says the Atlanteans invaded "from next Libya (Africa)".
North America was mostly covered by ice.
South America is centred more east that North America, and Africa sticks out further west than Europe does.

Latitude mayhave changed since pole shifts are known to have happened.


Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


 "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

Timagenes can only talk about the middle of the ocean as far as he understands it. If Atlantis is the middle of the ocean that Timagenes knows, the land inside pillars, then he means the Atlantic. If he claims to see it from Greece then he must be at close latitude,?  


The Mediterranean is not an "(middle of the) ocean".
"Remote" is not close to Greece.
Timagenes is not the first hand source so he is less reliable. I only quoted him and others as showing their rough general view/impression/understanding/interpretation of Plato's words meanings (re Atlantis' distance being far not near).

The Atlantic/Ocean would both sides of Atlantis/America(s).
The view was from either Egypt or Atlantis rather than from Greece.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2019 at 12:53
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Just for a moment, accept what Plato wrote as fact. That being the case, Atlantis was located near to the Pillars of Heracles, the Straits of Gibralta.

Personally, I don't know that Atlantis ever existed.
Hi, 
Isn't saying "Pillars of Heracles" equivalent to saying the known world ?  

Yes, at least the eastern end of known Europe.

But, all we have is Plato's writings,  no further proof although quite a few have quoted him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 07:41


If Atlantis of the Atlantis Account is true then it is found in other sources and in the true site.
Some think that the Medinet Habu inscription about the Sea Peoples matches the Atlanis Account's ivasion of the Atlanteans.
One has to objectively  look to see it there is a quality match in real history without bending the details of the account.
Tiahauanaco/Tiwanaku does has strong matches with  the capital city of Atlantis.  I can supply this further proof ifyou wish (though I already did in another forum).
The great city of Asshur in Genesis 10 may match both Tiahauanaco and Atlantis city.
The Atlantiss Account is ont Plato's. It came to Plato from Sonchis and Solon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 12:27
But therein also provides a clue that the story was a "hand me down" which could have been exagerated over time. This is not uncommon practice.

Could it be that a story was made up, repeated and added to until the final Plato version was produced?

Modern scientists have explored the sea floor in the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean near Gibraltar but nothing suggestive of Atlantis has been found, although, I suppose, over the millenia all traces could have been covered by silt.

I would totally reject claims that Atlantis may have been somewhere to the west, closer to the USA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 13:23
And yet, we are in the time of Solon, and even in the time of Plato, at an early stage of literacy, which means that people often still had good memories for important things.  But, still I believe that grandfather Critias had to be quite old and the younger Critias quite young when the story was passed from one to the other, the younger being perhaps 8 or 9.

Ocean geology is different than Continental (and I assume, Island) geology.  The oceans are heavy Basaltic rock, whereas the continents are lighter granitic rock sliding on top of the basaltic rock.
There are no great candidates for a sunken Atlantic, let alone Mu or Lemuria.
Underwater sonar maps have pretty much shown that.

Sonchis is not mentioned in Plato, and in my opinion, comes from outside sources, being an Egyptian priest contemporary with Solon (therefore "must" be the priest talking to Solon.)

I consider most if not all accounts derivative of Plato, as the Carthaginians gave way to the Romans, it was necessary to push the location of Atlantis further out, for the 'just' beyond the pillars of Hercules didn't cut it any more.

Plato wrote predominantly in dialogues, one can get tripped up in many places in his dialogues if one assumes that they are historically accurate.  For example, some believe that Timaeus of Lokri is a historical (Pythagorean), others deny it, still others think it is unimportant.  What Plato is doing in the Timaeus with the Atlantis story is less than obvious.  It is important, and how it is important is not clear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 15:03
"Gather 'round the fire children and I'll tell you a story of a wonderous land which disappeared without trace........"

I await the outcome of scientific searches before I'll accept some of the stories from our ancient past.

Of course, there were stories told just for entertainment. Could this be another one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 15:06
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:

It depends where the pillars of Hercules were. My theory based on various evidences is that the pillars were at the most distant point of the world and were in Peru/Andes.
(Peru is more distant (west & south) than Mexico, though North America is centred further west than South America.)

The Atlantis Account is from Sais/Egypt not from Athens/Greece.

South America has more support than North America. For example the Atlas mountains are in Africa (beside South America) not in Europe (beside North America). (The Atlas also roughly mirror the Andes.) Also, Atlantis/Atlas is implied to be south-west of Gades in Spain in Europe.
According to one translator's version of the Atlantis Account it says the Atlanteans invaded "from next Libya (Africa)".
North America was mostly covered by ice.
South America is centred more east that North America, and Africa sticks out further west than Europe does.

Latitude may have changed since pole shifts are known to have happened.
Yes but if North America is covered in ice then no one has crossed Beringia land bridge and no one theoretically is living in South America. What is the timeline? 


Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


 "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

Timagenes can only talk about the middle of the ocean as far as he understands it. If Atlantis is the middle of the ocean that Timagenes knows, the land inside pillars, then he means the Atlantic. If he claims to see it from Greece then he must be at close latitude,?  


The Mediterranean is not an "(middle of the) ocean".
"Remote" is not close to Greece.
Timagenes is not the first hand source so he is less reliable. I only quoted him and others as showing their rough general view/impression/understanding/interpretation of Plato's words meanings (re Atlantis' distance being far not near).

The Atlantic/Ocean would both sides of Atlantis/America(s).
The view was from either Egypt or Atlantis rather than from Greece.

[/QUOTE]
Critias has motivation to construct a narrative. Critias has been compared to Robespierre for the "iniquitous deeds" (Plato) of the Thirty Tyrants after Athens was conquered. 
wiki-The Thirty Tyrants-
If the poles and plates were moving in such a way that it brought Africa and South America back into close vicinity then why is the enormous event barely mentioned?

Encyclopedia.com Continental Drift-
Another important piece of evidence was discovered in the early twentieth century. When molten lava freezes, it preserves traces of Earth's magnetic field. Basalt, which freezes deep underground, also records Earth's magnetic field at the time the basalt cooled. Measurements of the direction of Earth's magnetic field from many different rocks of different ages on different continents indicate either that Earth's magnetic poles have moved all over the planet or that the continents themselves have moved.
 


Edited by Vanuatu - 19 Sep 2019 at 15:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 15:31
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


Plato wrote predominantly in dialogues, one can get tripped up in many places in his dialogues if one assumes that they are historically accurate.  For example, some believe that Timaeus of Lokri is a historical (Pythagorean), others deny it, still others think it is unimportant.  What Plato is doing in the Timaeus with the Atlantis story is less than obvious.  It is important, and how it is important is not clear.
Was Plato possibly in the position of Josephus a kind of captive historian? Is Plato describing penalty for impiety? 

Could the Atlantis example have been allegorical for the defeat of Athens, without naming them?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2019 at 02:18
Plato was an Athenian aristocrat, during a time that Athens leaned democratically, sometimes bordering on mob rule.  Dialogues are a means of writing that are good for getting a message past critics.  Is the message of the character of Socrates the same as Plato's message?  How can you tell?  What about the Laws, in which Socrates does not appear, except maybe as "the Athenian Stranger."  The Atlantis story is not told by the character of Socrates, so even if the message of the character of Socrates is the same as Plato's message, the story of Atlantis is from someone else.  Is that too part of Plato's message???  Does it even have to be either/or?

As far as allegorical is concerned:
1) Yes, it could be, 2) no, it is not obvious that it is. 3) if it was obvious, then Plato's critics probably could use it to get at him.  4) But, they can't, can they?  Because, obviously the Athenians are the good guys of the story.  Right? 

To me, the big question is what does the Atlantis story have to do with the rest of it, a cosmology told by Timaeus?  Some scholars consider the Atlantis story a little sugar to sweeten the cosmological medicine which is a lot less digestible.  It makes as much (or as little) sense as anything else.  Still, not very satisfying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2019 at 12:47

The only way to prove the Atlantis Account is true or fiction is to first objectively and throughly look to see if there is any strong match in history, instead of just assuming/asserting that it is a fiction of Plato's or just a handed down story.

The people talking in the Account actually say in one place that it is true history not made up (Timaeus 20e, 21b, 26f).

I could post some evidences but i want to know i am ot wasting my time first. Otherwise see my post in rival forum a year ago http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37820 . What one or more matches evidences would convince people?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2019 at 10:53
Dr. Phil said that when people swear that what they are saying is true, or say, "trust me." that is the time to not trust them.  So, yes, Critias says the story is authentic, but any huckster trying to tell a story will do the same.  Instead of trusting the story because it is sworn to be authentic, I would tend to be more skeptical of it, precisely because it sworn to be authentic.

Plato writes about the noble lie in the Republic, in other words it is necessary to sometimes lie for the greater good.  So, no, I don't necessarily trust everything that Plato says.

To me, the most significant detail about Atlantis is that it sunk.  Taihuauneco is not underwater, last time I checked.  looking at your other thread, you seem to believe that the Atlantis description (description(s)?) must match up to some thing,  If it must match up to _some_ thing, then I might agree that Taihauneco would be the best bet.  But I don't agree that it must match up to _some_ thing.

You have to decide whether you are wasting your time, "what one or more matches evidences would convince people?"  Well, let us start with _your_ Atlantis not being underwater.  I also don't see how a trireme could get from the Pacific to the Mediterranean on regular basis, c. 10,000 BC, before triremes were ever invented.  When did the Egyptians get the horse?  would the Atlantians have the horse before the Egyptians???


Edited by franciscosan - 26 Sep 2019 at 10:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2019 at 17:48
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:


The only way to prove the Atlantis Account is true or fiction is to first objectively and thoroughly look to see if there is any strong match in history, instead of just assuming/asserting that it is a fiction of Plato's or just a handed down story.

The people talking in the Account actually say in one place that it is true history not made up (Timaeus 20e, 21b, 26f).

I could post some evidences but i want to know i am ot wasting my time first. Otherwise see my post in rival forum a year ago http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37820 . What one or more matches evidences would convince people?


With advances in technology, many searches have been conducted, and many areas, in attempts to locate and identify Atlantis. To date, none have been successful.

Searches, in one form or another, have been conducted over centuries with no result.

If you claim that there are matches or parallels in history, let's have them.

I retain an open mind on whether or not Atlantis ever existed, but I'm certainly not going to All Empires to read about it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2019 at 17:51
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Dr. Phil said that when people swear that what they are saying is true, or say, "trust me." that is the time to not trust them.  So, yes, Critias says the story is authentic, but any huckster trying to tell a story will do the same.  Instead of trusting the story because it is sworn to be authentic, I would tend to be more skeptical of it, precisely because it sworn to be authentic.

Plato writes about the noble lie in the Republic, in other words it is necessary to sometimes lie for the greater good.  So, no, I don't necessarily trust everything that Plato says.

.... looking at your other thread, you seem to believe that the Atlantis description (description(s)?) must match up to some thing,  If it must match up to _some_ thing, then I might agree that Taihauneco would be the best bet.  But I don't agree that it must match up to _some_ thing.


Sure but that doesn't disprove/prove anything. We have confirmed the account is true because we have found a sight which does have stark matches with the details given in then Atlantis account word for word.

I didn't say it must match up, but i do tend to believe ancient sources will match. I said only by first objectively and thoroughly checking to see if there is a strong match in real history can one prove whether the source is true or not. Not all sources are equal though, i don't see some source like the book of Mormon are likely true.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

To me, the most significant detail about Atlantis is that it sunk.  Taihuauneco is not underwater, last time I checked.  ....

.... "what one or more matches evidences would convince people?"  Well, let us start with _your_ Atlantis not being underwater. 


Archaeology and legend both confirm that Tiahuanaco was overwhelmed by water just like the Atlantis Account says (and like the Medinet Habu account of the Sea Peoples says). Just because it didn't stay underwater to today doesn't mean it wasn't underwater at the time.
I can post the actual details from Tiahuanaco if wish further info on this (or else see the posts on this in that other thread i gave link to).

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I also don't see how a trireme could get from the Pacific to the Mediterranean on regular basis, c. 10,000 BC, before triremes were ever invented.


The account doesn't say on a regular basis, it says they had little contact with other humans.
There are plenty of evidences of ancient contacts between Old and New Worlds. Ill answer this further later (already have in some other forums/posts).
The date was not 10000 bc. The 9000/8000 yrs is not literal. Atlantis was not far from bronze age Athens and Sais timewise according to the Account.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

When did the Egyptians get the horse?  would the Atlantians have the horse before the Egyptians???


I don't see why you argue this. Nothing is said in the Atlantis Account about who had the horse first? Poseidon was associated with horses. Atlantis had horses or "horses". Prehistoric Americas had horses. Bible has chariots and horses in Egypt in Moses time.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

You have to decide whether you are wasting your time,


If people are willing/want to give a fair hearing and fair consideration of all evidences and not unfairly only focus on only one or a few weaker points then it is not wasting time. But if people just keep not

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 00:21
WE Spake Zarathustra!
I hope you enjoy this article my dear friends. 
thuthsetsfree, you have not wasted your time! Love to read everyone's posts and historically our current lineup represents my all my favorite members. Always glad for participation and camaraderie here, so thanks to everyone. 


There's a Lost Continent Hiding Beneath Europe

By Yasemin Saplakoglu - Staff Writer  Planet Earth 

"Greater Adria" existed hundreds of millions of years ago after it broke off from the supercontinent Gondwana.


Greater Adria was large, extending from what is now the Alps all the way to Iran, but not all of it was above the water. That means it was likely a string of islands or archipelagos, said lead author Douwe van Hinsbergen, the chair in global tectonics and paleogeography in the Department of Earth Sciences at Utrecht University in the Netherlands. It would have been a "good scuba diving region."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 17:27
One of my previous candidates for Atlantis was the Armorica Plate aka Avallonia/Apallachia/Euramerica which was a similar piece in early continental shift.

Just a bit more on the Atlantis "sinking" matching Tiahuanaco:

Atlantis: Atlantis Account:

- "... there occurred violent/terrible/portentous/exceeding-great earthquakes and floods, and in a single day and night of (extraordinary) rain/destruction all your warlike men in a body sunk into the earth, and the island/nesos (of) Atlantis in (a) like manner disappeared, and was sunk beneath the sea. And that is the reason why the sea/pelagos in those parts is impassable and impenetrable/unsearchable, because there is such a quantity of shallow mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island."

/ "there were earthquakes and floods of extraordinary violence, and in one (grievous/dreadful) day and night all your fighting men were swallowed up by the earth, and the island/nesos (of) Atlantis was (similarily) swallowed (up) by the sea/thalassa and disappeared/vanish(ed) (away); that is why the sea/pelagos/ocean in/at that area/spot is to this day impassable to navigation"

/ "one (grievous) day & night befell them, all the warriors in your land / the whole body of your warriors were swallowed up by the earth, and the island/nesos (of) Atlantis in (a) like manner disappeared, and (was) sank/sunk below the sea  ... the pelagos/ocean there is unnavigible, being blocked (up) by very-shallow-shoals / the-shoal-mud / quantity-of-mud, which the island caused as she/it settled down."
(Timaeus 25d-e)

- "... afterward sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to the ocean."

/ "... subsequently overwhelmed by earthquakes, and is [now] the source of the impenetrable mud which prevents the free passage of those who sail [to the sea beyond]" Critias 109a.

Atlantis:
- "a large island was swallowed up" (Marcellinus).

Sea Peoples: Medinet Habu inscription:
- their "islands are uprooted and carried away .... The might of Nun (the Ocean) broke forth and fell in a great wave upon their towns and villages", also that the head of their cities was submerged.

Tiwanaku: tradition/myth/legend:
- Tiwanaku was Flooded (refs include Sykes)
- Local Peruvian/Andean myth attests a flood called 'Unu Pachacuti' "water overturns land" (ref Jim Allen).
- There are also stories of a lost underwater city 'Wanaku' in lake Titicaca not far from Tiwanaku.

Tiwanaku: archaeology:
- Cerro Santo Vilca / Pampa Aullagas earthquake damage on west.
- "blocks tossed/scattered"
- cracked 'Gate(way) of the Sun'.
- "broken megaliths"
- There is also evidence of subsidence in the ocean trench off the coast of Peru.
- A source says Tiahuanaco is also covered in lava.
- Tiwanaku suffered "an avalanche/flood of water, and a sudden upheaval of unknown nature".
- Tiwanaku was Flooded (refs include Fasold).
- "... many more still lie buried in the ground under layers of sediment from ... flooding from Lake Titicaca."
- "There were two Tiahuanaco's, one the visible ruins, the other the subterranean and invisible."

(I didn't record all my sources but the info can be found/confirmed by anyone.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 17:39
Given what we now know about Tectonic Plate movement, it's possible that Atlantis sunk, and that over time it's been covered over by subduction. I'd be very happy for someone to prove that Atlantis existed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 23:13
Fascinating here from the article, if they keep digging into this it's going to be amazing.

Hinsbergen and his team looked at the orientation of tiny, magnetic minerals formed by primeval bacteria in these rocks. The bacteria make these magnetic particles in order to orient themselves with the Earth's magnetic field. When the bacteria die, the magnetic minerals are left behind in the sediment, Hinsbergen said. 

With time the sediment around them turns into rock, freezing them in the orientation they were in hundreds of millions of years ago. Hinsbergen and his team found that in many of these regions, the rocks had undergone very large rotations.

What's more, Hinsbergen's team pieced together large rocks that used to belong together, such as in a belt of volcanoes or in a big coral reef. Moving faults scattered the rocks "like pieces of a broken plate," he said.

It's like a big jigsaw puzzle, Hinsbergen said. "All the bits and pieces are jumbled up and I spent the last 10 years making the puzzle again." From there, they used software to create detailed maps of the ancient continent and confirmed that it moved northward while twisting slightly, before colliding with Europe. 


truthsetsfree, this doesn't hurt your argument.

Have you posted anything about Peruvian legend or stories from the region that support a lost population in fire, earthquakes etc? The Nazca plates are infamously volcanic.

And check this out, I can't cut paste here. In the North Pacific human remains have been dated before the Clovis people 13,000 ybp. 
Nat Geo reports "The Cell Study" Max Planck Institute dating remains - 17,000 to 14,000 ybp.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 10:22
Picked up Graham Hancock book at a free library, probably never read the whole thing, but pick it up and scan it occasionally.  He sounds like he has some interesting views of the ante-diluvian age.  Joe Rogan has a conversation with him on the Joe Rogan Experience, which is probably 2-3 hours long.  Rogan also has shorter clips of Hancock.

But if you move the location of Atlantis away from where Plato said it was, is it really Atlantis?  Especially, since you don't know what the native names of these pre-historic sites.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 02:00
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


But if you move the location of Atlantis away from where Plato said it was, is it really Atlantis?  Especially, since you don't know what the native names of these pre-historic sites.
I guess it depends on how you see the idea of Atlantis. Maybe Atlantis was an "event" a situation where ancient people saw landmasses move, sink and obviously erupt. If it was an actual singular place then yes it would have been near Greece. This latest continent was located beneath southern Europe, that's the Mediterranean so it could be off the coast of Athens and end up under another continent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 21:34
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But if you move the location of Atlantis away from where Plato said it was, is it really Atlantis?  Especially, since you don't know what the native names of these pre-historic sites.
 
But it is Plato who defines Atlantis. No-one discusses the tale before him. It all comes back to Thera/Santorini and the reworking of an ancient disaster as a morality tale.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2019 at 13:07
Atlantis was said to be at or near the Pillars of Heracles, which is the Straits of Gibralta.

It could be that Plato was in fact writing some sort of warning to his contemporaries,  a parabel if you like.

But in any case, no proof of Atlantis' existence has been revealed yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 20:13
I thought Plato said Atlantis was beyond the Pillars of Hercules? It is curious how there is a strong movement of people determined to prove some sort of advanced civilisation in distant antiquity, for which there is no direct evidence at all. Much of that asserted is misinterpreted. The classic example is the 'rocket bike' of Maya origin. Quite apart from the fact the rider is unprotected with no means of securing himself in the seat, it actually represents the 'Tree of Life' with a man symbolically attempting to climb it.
 
I mean, why would a UFO travel enormous distances to reach Earth only to erect a ring of stones? Daft idea to begin with.


Edited by caldrail - 28 Oct 2019 at 20:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2019 at 11:22
Quote I mean, why would a UFO travel enormous distances to reach Earth only to erect a ring of stones? Daft idea to begin with.

But, did it start out as a ring of stones? Was it a precursor to other revelations?

Why stop with Stonehenge? What about the Nazca Lines, or the fantastic building accomplishments which would be difficult for modern engineers to build?

There are many mysteries of ancient accomplishments that modern science is yet to explain.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2019 at 04:35
In Larry Niven's "Protector," and incredibly advanced 'alien' (well, sort of alien) builds in the middle of the night a stone henge on a nearby hill.  Of course, one doesn't necessarily know which is the real stone henge, because any alien who could build one in a single night, could probably move the first and build a second in its place.  Stonehenge may be the equivalent of an intergalactic frat house initiation for all we know.  But, I really doubt it.  Of course, Stonehenge is usually described in terms of religion (and astronomy), which when stuff from dead cultures gets explained as 'religious' that means we really don't understand it, so lets put it in the god(s) category and dismiss it as primitive.

It is interesting that archaeologists have discovered weaving by the Nazca 'Indians' that is tight enough to make a balloon.  So, which is more cool? that they may have used balloons to get above it all, or that aliens helped them?

We should probably realize that stonehenge was probably coming out of thousands of years of stone age culture, during which their skills with stone would have been honed quite well, or their skills in weaving, or after a certain point, ceramics.  It should be no surprise that they could do things with stone that we can not, after all, they didn't have to worry about building permits or OSHA regulations.  Just because we have the end product of their creations, doesn't mean we can figure out how they did it.  Reverse engineering can figure out a lot, but not all ancient techniques (at least not in the immediacy that we want).

To ask a different question, what is Atlantis worth to you?  What do you have to give up, to allow for the possibility of Atlantis?  What do you have to gain?  Or is "Atlantis" just another random fact that gets added to the mishmash?   Let me offer a clue, it should not be the last option. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2019 at 22:11
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But, did it start out as a ring of stones? Was it a precursor to other revelations?
Archeology has shown it began as a ring of bluestones marking graves. It developed into a more complex site - part of the ritual landscape of the Salisbury Downs - along with repositioned bluestones and the famous trilithons. Whatever the details of the religion practised in that area (it appears to have changed emphasis over the centuries and for some time at least part of a much wider influence across Britain) it all came to an end around 1600-1900 BC. Sorry, no Druids. They didn't emerge until at least 500BC and did not use stone circles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 2019 at 13:14
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


To ask a different question, what is Atlantis worth to you?  What do you have to give up, to allow for the possibility of Atlantis?  What do you have to gain?  Or is "Atlantis" just another random fact that gets added to the mishmash?   Let me offer a clue, it should not be the last option. 

The story of self destruction is compelling and humans know that self destruction or extinction is a possiblity in life, for all life.

If there is proof of an Atlantis, especially Plato's version then what we intuitively know is confirmed as fact. 
The miracle of Plato's story maintaining its core message would be life-affirming since the message got through. 
The influence of the prohibition against greed and other vices can't be measured except in the way that old stories still effect social dynamics, witness the endless 'reboots' of comic book heroes invented and reinvented for thousands of years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2019 at 04:57
It is not only self-destruction, for the collapse took Athens and Atlantis' allies down with them.

Is there a truth to the story that goes beyond its factual accuracy?  Or does it stand or die on whether or not it accurately presents the facts?

To me, Atlantis represents lost civilizations that in ways were more advanced than us.  But, I think that is true of ancient civilization in general.  If all you have is stone and weaving, you get pretty darn good at stone work and weaving, including doing stuff we can't do, but no, no flying saucers.

If you don't mind workers falling off the edge every once in awhile, you can build a Macchu Pichu, or for that matter, a Hoover Dam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 21:50
The idea that ancient civilisations were more advanced than us is hilariously funny. There just wasn't any realistic possibility of that happening. However, the concept is one that emerged as a sort of folk memory of those civilisations in ancient times (including the Roman) who fell by the wayside leaving lesser societies to fill the gap looking back at past glories with some attachment. it's become a feature of human psychology to see things that way. But sorry, no Sumerians in hovercars.
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