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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2019 at 05:40
no hover cars, I am just saying that if all you have to work with is stone, then you get pretty good working in stone, and probably learn a few tricks that later get forgotten.

However, there were things forgotten during the medieval dark age, that were rediscovered.  I seem to remember that Raphael learned about perspective from what he found exploring the catacombs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2019 at 10:37
How did the Greeks move 4 ton marble cubes on rafts, eight kilometers- one thousand years before the Great Pyramids in Egypt were built?
Humans may have surpassed the capacity to do the kind of work required. The Jews of the Exodus from Egypt(Moses) were likely mistreated workers, earning their daily bread while being ground into early death. In order to do a day's work on a farm, you have to be fit at least as far as the job demands. 

I wonder if any modern people could tolerate the labor intensive processes used in ancient times. ?*
It probably does make some events impossible to duplicate such as moving enormous rocks while people just drop like flies, no lawsuits. 




Edited by Vanuatu - 20 Nov 2019 at 21:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2019 at 05:30
_Very_ carefully. Smile

I would not say that they "may have surpassed the capacity to do the kind of work required."  Because apparently they did it, albeit pushing the limits.  The exodus and the raising of the pyramids were two different time periods (I seem to remember).  The Jews are presented as slaves, but I am not sure they were that mistreated.  It is kinda hard to tell.  But, most of the building works would have been done by Egyptians as a gift to the gods, putting slaves to work on something that is a gift to the gods (or the Pharaohs), kinda taints it.  Or at least, so the reasoning goes.

I don't think they really know how obelisks were raised in ancient Egypt.  People have tried (experimental archaeology), but I think they don't really know how it was done (except in a vague sense).  Now they know how to move Easter Island heads by 'walking them' into position.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2019 at 14:17
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

_Very_ carefully. Smile

I would not say that they "may have surpassed the capacity to do the kind of work required."  Because apparently they did it, albeit pushing the limits.  The exodus and the raising of the pyramids were two different time periods (I seem to remember).  The Jews are presented as slaves, but I am not sure they were that mistreated.  It is kinda hard to tell.  But, most of the building works would have been done by Egyptians as a gift to the gods, putting slaves to work on something that is a gift to the gods (or the Pharaohs), kinda taints it.  Or at least, so the reasoning goes.

I don't think they really know how obelisks were raised in ancient Egypt.  People have tried (experimental archaeology), but I think they don't really know how it was done (except in a vague sense).  Now they know how to move Easter Island heads by 'walking them' into position.
Modern people have surpassed the capacity to work that hard and live. Modern people think more than they sweat and human labor is purposely reduced wherever possible. 
Finally, the very first reference to “Israel” appears on the Victory Stela of Pharaoh Merneptah, one of Ramses’ sons. This monument is dated around 1207 B.C.E., which suggests that the Exodus story must be set in a time period prior to the reign of Merneptah, possibly between 1280 and 1220 B.C.E. No record of the exodus has been found in any Egyptian tablets, but that is not unusual; the new dynasty did not make a habit of recording its defeats. On the other hand, there are ample records of Semitic immigrant workers in Egypt, who may have drifted back to Syria-Canaan in the 13th century for a variety of reasons—including, perhaps, Ramses’ harsh poli­cies of conscripting labor.


Edited by Vanuatu - 20 Nov 2019 at 21:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2019 at 07:02
But that is the people of Israel, not the country of Israel, and even then, the transliteration into "Israel" is uncertain.  According to Wikipedia on the stele of Merneptah.  
'tantilizing' but far from clear.

I can never get your links, V.  Sometimes when I enter it by hand I can get something, others like this one say I have to sign up and join their club to read further.

although it would not be a popular view for religionists, it is possible that the whole Egyptian saga was fictional.  Of course the wandering the desert for 70 odd years is very plausible, given the male prerogative of not asking for directions!  

Of course, this relates to Atlantis, 'cause some associate the flooding of the reed (red) sea, with the explosion of Santorini causing a tsunami (and the smoking pillar of fire).  But don't ask me when that was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2019 at 00:58
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

But that is the people of Israel, not the country of Israel, and even then, the transliteration into "Israel" is uncertain.  According to Wikipedia on the stele of Merneptah.  
'tantilizing' but far from clear.

I can never get your links, V.  Sometimes when I enter it by hand I can get something, others like this one say I have to sign up and join their club to read further.

although it would not be a popular view for religionists, it is possible that the whole Egyptian saga was fictional.  Of course the wandering the desert for 70 odd years is very plausible, given the male prerogative of not asking for directions!  

Of course, this relates to Atlantis, 'cause some associate the flooding of the reed (red) sea, with the explosion of Santorini causing a tsunami (and the smoking pillar of fire).  But don't ask me when that was.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/who-built-the-pyramids/
(sorry about link, I guess Twitter gets me early access to some articles,also use Google) 
The earliest text using the term Israel is just that- whatever people have said since then doesn't change what it meant to the Egyptians who crafted the stele. It's refuted by a fraction of would be de bunkers I don't see how that changes anything about who Israel or the Twelve Tribes were to the Egyptians.
It's magic Joseph in the technicolor coat who gets in good with Egypt but things change, pharaohs change and conscripted laborers becoming slaves is not hard to believe. In fact it could have happened often enough to become a cautionary tale. Ramses ll is the ultimate cruel overlord, the desert is calling symbol of restorative spiritual journey, so better to risk starvation than assured death while doing pharaoh's bidding. 
At the link Dr Hawass and others agree that the pyramids were built by local people. Hawass has found workers tombs near the pyramid at Giza. This is proof to Egyptologists that the workers were not slaves bc of moderately adorned graves so close to the pyramid. Also hieroglyphs at the Great Pyramid tell about a national endeavor to build the pyramids.
Fascinating about Santorini- 

The plagues occurred due to the volcanic eruption and attracted hordes of locusts and there was evidence of erratic animal activity due largely to the alteration of air pressure and weather conditions. After the complete devastation of Egypt, the Jews were able to get away in spite of the Pharaoh’s soldiers in hot pursuit. In the Exodus, there is a quotation which goes like this: By day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light (Exodus 13:21). This state of biblical affairs can easily be related to volcanic eruption.

Significantly, the awesome Plinian column created by the Santorini eruption might have afforded cloud cover by day and would have become visible like fire in the night. One must also take into consideration the division of the Red Sea which might have drawn waters thereby shaping the caldera.

Moses too would have crossed over thereby making things that much more difficult for Pharaoh's soldiers. Biblical stories can be interpreted in many different ways like legends and myths. The Exodus dates back to 1447 BC, but this is by no means exact due to the fact that it is an anthology of stories. Historians have no clue to the Pharaoh who ruled during the era of Moses which in itself is regarded as the most authentic timing of the story.



Edited by Vanuatu - 23 Nov 2019 at 01:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2019 at 11:19
Aren't we just a little off topic here?

It's getting more and more confusing, and has what to do with Atlantis?
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2019 at 01:59
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Aren't we just a little off topic here?

It's getting more and more confusing, and has what to do with Atlantis?
Atlantis, old stories, natural disasters, relevance of ancient stories- it's a big umbrella. 
Hawass has been digging for 25 years and he's very happy to debunk the aliens/pyramid theory. The fact remains that the earth lines up with Orion's belt on the winter solstice and the three pyramids line up with light emanating from Orion in the shape of a pyramid. That is cause for wonder and appreciation.

Now, the spinning tic tacs that keep showing up near military jets and US military admitting to close encounters- is a little unsettling!



Edited by Vanuatu - 05 Dec 2019 at 01:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2019 at 05:32
V, I was not doubting the "Israel" reference, although there are experts who do.  I was doubting whether "Israel" refers to the nation or the people.  There is evidence that the change in that area was not the drastic Joshua (I like that, "drastic Joshua") coming in guns blazing, killing all the heathen, but rather a gradual change with the Hebrew (proto-Israelite) people being there all along.  Maybe some kind of exodus happened, but archaeology seems to show that for the ordinary people there was a great deal of continuity in material culture.  But any who, it is thought that the reference in the stele refers to an Israelite people in the region, not an Israelite nation that becomes _the_ Israelite nation.

Ancient people tended to know their stars.  From what I understand, Egyptians had some complicated constellations that took, like 8 hours, to fully appear, from the beginning of peaking over the horizon, to the last part of it finally coming up over the horizon.  We might look at them as long, compound constellations, made up of several of what we (and the Greeks) considered constellations.  They didn't have light pollution like we do, although with campfires, they sometimes and some places would have too much smoke.  not usually though.  Plenty of wonder and appreciation, aliens?  I don't know, to me they are not a necessary explanation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2019 at 14:49
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

V, I was not doubting the "Israel" reference, although there are experts who do.  I was doubting whether "Israel" refers to the nation or the people.  

  Plenty of wonder and appreciation, aliens?  I don't know, to me they are not a necessary explanation. 
Why would I inject a modern state of Israel jab in a discussion of Jericho? 
I'm merely acknowledging who the tribe of Israel was to the ancient Egyptians, at least in name. Also as an attested written connection and use of common symbols & numbers.

The point about Orion is that the stars/space, moved the Egyptians to presume a connection was there during the solstice and Egypt is answering light with rocks.

Today the US military has stopped denying UFO encounters, so sightings of UFO's by the Egyptians cannot be ruled out everClap IMO - AND there is still some mystery as to the purpose of it all. 
Why did Egyptian Pharaohs want enormous tombs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2019 at 10:39
I did not think you were interjecting the modern state of Israel, I thought you might be talking about the Southern Kingdom (of Israel) as opposed to Judaea.  But, remember that Jacob/Israel starts before the (supposed) journey down to Egypt, and so there could have a continuity of people in the region before (during and after) the Exodus.  but, it is hard to tell, at least for us amateurs, non-archaeologists, non-rabbi.  The written record says one thing, and the archaeological record says another, at least on this issue.  Of course, many things in the Bible have been shown by archaeology to be accurate.

Kind of like laser floyd?  Oh, wait that's answering rock with light.  

cannot be ruled out by who?  Inquiring minds want to know....  Bible says, "seek and ye shall find...."  But there is also an implication that you will find what you need, not necessarily what you want.

Well of course, the Egyptian Pharaohs were all male (except one), right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2019 at 02:18
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I did not think you were interjecting the modern state of Israel, I thought you might be talking about the Southern Kingdom (of Israel) as opposed to Judaea.  But, remember that Jacob/Israel starts before the (supposed) journey down to Egypt, and so there could have a continuity of people in the region before (during and after) the Exodus.  but, it is hard to tell, at least for us amateurs, non-archaeologists, non-rabbi.  The written record says one thing, and the archaeological record says another, at least on this issue.  Of course, many things in the Bible have been shown by archaeology to be accurate.
Quote
William Dever puts the Israelites and another group at Canaan during the time of the Exodus- if Ramses ll is the time marker, Israelites are not in Egypt. Blending of cultures, judging from the Early Bronze Age commercial Egyptian goods found at Canaan. Egypt records military details of armed people at Canaan in 236 BCE. 
Canaan would extend to the South and at the sides to include parts of Jordan and Syria.

Kind of like laser floyd?  Oh, wait that's answering rock with light.  

cannot be ruled out by who?  Inquiring minds want to know....  Bible says, "seek and ye shall find...."  But there is also an implication that you will find what you need, not necessarily what you want.
Well of course, the Egyptian Pharaohs were all male (except one), right?

lol-just when you thought you had seen the last of Atlantis.
Yes well I cannot rule them out when the military has finally acknowledged them. I don't think this is a trick with cameras, the pilots seem genuine.
Therefore if the military admits that they see them now, I'm inclined to believe that people saw them a few thousand years ago. Prepared to accept it.
Pharaoh the Girl? teehee



Edited by Vanuatu - 05 Dec 2019 at 02:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2019 at 09:36
no, seriously, Hatshepsut or something like that, female pharaoh, even wore a fake beard.

not 236 BCE, that is after (right after?) Alexander III of Macedon (the "great").  Canaan (and Egypt) had long been absorbed by Persia, and then Alexander III conquered Persia.

Yes, but did the ancients see aliens, or did they see angels and demons, or probably just demons.  There are no reports of aliens in ancient literature (Greco-Roman, Judeo-Christian).  But, there are reports of angels and demons.  But, generally in reports they don't make anything, no Pyramids, no Atlantis.  If aliens wanted to make something really, really cool, why would they limit themselves to stone, why not space age alloys, and complex plastics?

Now there are some pretty cool beings in apocalyptic literature, but they are angels (or demons).  Sumerian and Babylonian get some weird creatures, but nothing that cannot be pieced together with spare parts.  Why presuppose aliens instead of angels and demons??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 00:08
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

no, seriously, Hatshepsut or something like that, female pharaoh, even wore a fake beard.
I did forget about Hatshepsut. Did she wear a beard? She was depicted with one but according toLive Science her name gives away the female gender grammatically. 
https://www.livescience.com/62614-hatshepsut.html

Quote not 236 BCE, that is after (right after?) Alexander III of Macedon (the "great").  Canaan (and Egypt) had long been absorbed by Persia, and then Alexander III conquered Persia.
Forgot to carry the 1. Wink
More like 1236 BCE or there about.

Quote Yes, but did the ancients see aliens, or did they see angels and demons, or probably just demons.  There are no reports of aliens in ancient literature (Greco-Roman, Judeo-Christian).  But, there are reports of angels and demons.  But, generally in reports they don't make anything, no Pyramids, no Atlantis.  If aliens wanted to make something really, really cool, why would they limit themselves to stone, why not space age alloys, and complex plastics?
In my view aliens don't necessarily have to meet the ancients face to face. If UFO's or some space craft were appearing to the ancients throughout history it would not be an anomaly to the ancient people
Chiron, a significant asteroid with icy rings and an eccentric orbit may have inspired the name Lucifer "bringer of light." Good or bad omens are associated with galactic events. No doubt that the day and night contrast fuels the thinking applied to everyday life, the nature of events. I want to discuss Egypt and Pleiades but must do a refresher read.


Quote Now there are some pretty cool beings in apocalyptic literature, but they are angels (or demons).  Sumerian and Babylonian get some weird creatures, but nothing that cannot be pieced together with spare parts.  Why presuppose aliens instead of angels and demons??
Also lots of monsters or behemoths. When we see an Egyptian glyph where a human has a crocodile head,(deity Sobek, greek, Suchos) it is accentuating the critical aspect of the animal (or divinity shared by the animal) in order to have more Order. 
If you are going to live among crocs you have to think like a croc. If you start to think like a croc then you would not just kill them, you would value them and possibly elevate them to a cult figure status which changes over time. 
Now can you imagine two peoples from distant beginnings meeting after a disaster?
Maybe different races. Maybe one tribe acts as a teacher maybe they interbreed and go separate ways. The stories and influences over time become cherished and memorialized because of the love or fear they inspire. Association with an astrological event could change the story, the memories depend on the leadership, Thutmose ll tried to wipe out the memory of Hatshepsut and the Tut tomb may have purposely covered. Atlantis had Plato and the Greeks to tell the story it's just hard to fathom how politics shape what we know. It would have been easy to wipe out records of Atlantis maybe that is why we have so little written on the subject.

The all consuming chieftain, king, animal is represented as giant frequently meaning appetite for consuming all. Their desire is Big. It is possible to think of angels and demons over UFO's it may simply be the times and our concepts that color what we see. 
Why did the children at Fatima see the Virgin apparition? Same at Garabandal Spain in 1962, children see an apparition based on what is already in their heads. Salvador Dali was an atheist and he was asked by a group devoted to the Fatima apparitions to paint the children's vision of hell as described by the oldest child.
It had a lasting effect on his personal beliefs and more than one nightmare!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 2 hours 26 minutes ago at 14:23
The crocodile is a primordial being, as is the hippopotamus, you can't really think like a primordial being.

behemoth is a primordial being in the Book of Job, there is a sexual element to the description that (I seem to remember) sometimes gets glossed over in translations.

so is Atlantis based on what is already in your head?  Fatima is a supernatural phenomenon, correct?  If that is the case, then why isn't Atlantis also a supernatural phenomenon?  Is Ridley Scott's Alien about a natural beast or about a supernatural beast?  Is the elder god in Hellboy, a natural beast or a supernatural beast?  It seems to me that there is a similarity in the portrayals of the Elder god in Hellboy and the Alien.  Demons and angels versus aliens.  Same difference??
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