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Atlantis

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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2019 at 10:05
But, if someone came up to Plato and said, 'you are criticizing the Athenians and their empire by your story.'  He could say, '_I_ am not criticizing the Athenians, the Athenians are the good guys in my story, no, you are criticizing the Athenians!'  You cannot take the Atlantis story, and say that is what he is doing, (criticizing the democracy and their imperial ways).  But, it definitely is in the background for the astute reader to notice the possibility (but not the certainty).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 2019 at 16:23
If Atlantis is Plato's invention it is reasonable that he uses an extinct tribe from the past. Masking imperial criticism is necessary when there is no concept of fiction. 
The apocryphal texts about Jesus in the Middle Ages, (12th century) were the first improvised explanations for the gaps in the Bible story. 


“During the course of the Middle Ages, the supplementary stories were rewritten so many times that people eventually figured out that they were just tall tales and pretence. The most extreme examples are the historic accounts of the life of Alexander the Great,” he explains.

“Those books contain elements where Alexander the Great is flying in a kind of airplane. He sails in a submarine of sorts, and he meets a variety of mysterious beings. Those were popular books in the Middle Ages.”

In that way, people gradually got used to the fact that books could also be a form of entertainment – and that they were not necessarily telling the truth from cover to cover. Thus, the road was paved for the novels we know today.

Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2019 at 10:53
One thing in the Alexander Romance tales that we know must have happened, but there is no other report is Alexander becoming the Pharaoh (which must have happened because he would have to be pharaoh to rule Egypt).

I am not sure what you mean by 'extinct tribe.'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2019 at 11:16
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


I am not sure what you mean by 'extinct tribe.'
That would be the Atlanteans, if they exsisted.
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2019 at 20:52
Quote One thing in the Alexander Romance tales that we know must have happened, but there is no other report is Alexander becoming the Pharaoh (which must have happened because he would have to be pharaoh to rule Egypt).
He gave Egypt to his general Ptolemy, who became pharaoh and founded the Macedonian dynasty that came crashing to an end when entangled with Rome.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2019 at 10:52
I tend to see it as Ptolemy took Egypt after the death of Alexander III in Babylon.  He also took Alexander's body, the presence of which in Alexandria endorsed the Ptolemaic dynasty's right to rule.

Upon his death, the "Empire" fragmented into three major parts, Ptolemaic Egypt, the Seleukid Empire (Seleukos), and the Macedonian Empire encompassing Greece, I forget who got that bit (Cassander?? and _______??)  Ptolemaic dynasty lasted the longest though.

Back to the issue of Atlantis, if anyone knew anything, it would have been Aristotle, who taught Alexander and the generals, or the priests in Egypt, or the library of Alexandria.
Sprague De Camp lists in his book "Lost Continents" all the ancient quotes he can find about Atlantis, looking at the list, the only thing that cannot be derived from Plato is the name of the Egyptian priest that Solon saw, Sonchis (or something like that).  That however, can be figured out from succession lists for the priesthood regardless of whether the tale of Atlantis, shall we say, "holds water."

We have all of Plato's writings, and then some (attributed to him that probably came from the academy.  But, Aristotle also refers to the unwritten doctrines of Plato which Plato taught in lectures but did not write down.  These are probably Pythagorean teachings. Walter Burkert writes that what we have as Pythagorean teachings, are actually Platonic, or one might say, Platonic 'exoteric' teachings that have been promoted by the Platonists, instead of the "real" thing the unwritten doctrines.  So, yes, there are secrets in the Academy of Plato, and Aristotle does refer to them.  But, nowhere does Aristotle refer to Atlantis.  If Atlantis existed, then you would expect Aristotle to know about it,  And if he knew about it, then why didn't he mention something, like he mentions the unwritten doctrines?

There is a saying, three men can keep a secret, if two of them are dead.  Are we to expect Aristotle to maintain silence even after he broke with Plato?  Aristotle was Plato's greatest student, and Plato promoted his nephew instead of Aristotle.  Aristotle started his own school.  Of course, all of Plato's works still survive so maybe Plato (and Speusippus) did something right.  We don't have all of Aristotle's works.



Edited by franciscosan - 31 Dec 2019 at 10:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2019 at 12:33
Does Aristotle agree with Plato's ideas about the natural world or simultaneity as presented in the Timaeus?
If they did disagree about the Demiurge or Intellect but Aristotle is silent on Atlantis. *Aristotle might not have agreed with Plato but he didn't know for sure so he couldn't denounce the Atlantis story. 
What Plato says about Being and Becoming is mind blowing.


Edited by Vanuatu - 01 Jan 2020 at 13:54
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2020 at 02:31
You mean Aristotle might not have agreed.... (not Plato).

Aristotle does have a different notion of the ideas than Plato has.  If there was anything to know about Atlantis in Plato's Academy, Aristotle would have known it.  Therefore, the other possibility is that there was nothing to know, except the surface story in the Timaeus and the Critias fragment.  Or, of course, there is a third possibility, that Aristotle knew and deemed that it just was not that important.

There is a story about a lecture by Plato called "On the Good." which was so difficult that everybody left, except for Aristotle.  Sounds like a relatively innocent title, but it involved what was then high level mathematics.  No, it is not clear how mathematics relates to the Good.
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