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bald women and the veil

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    Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 00:24
I went to my local coffeehouse, and there one of the baristas is a women with a shaved head.  It got me thinking, (yeah, dangerous, I know), from my understanding in Islam, a woman's hair is her pride, and in modesty should be covered.  But what if the women has no hair?  Maybe my understanding of the reasons for the veil are too simplistic.  But that is what I was wondering....  What would be the answer to such a situation?  
And one might imagine it being a cancer patient instead of a 'rude' girl.  The characteristic is baldness, not whether they're flaunting authority.
btw, I don't have any problem with anyone wearing a veil or hijab if that is what they want to wear, whether or not it is personal taste, or cultural or religious priorities.  Just curious....


Edited by franciscosan - 30 Jun 2017 at 00:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 02:04
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I went to my local coffeehouse, and there one of the baristas is a women with a shaved head.  It got me thinking, (yeah, dangerous, I know), from my understanding in Islam, a woman's hair is her pride, and in modesty should be covered.  But what if the women has no hair?  Maybe my understanding of the reasons for the veil are too simplistic.  But that is what I was wondering....  What would be the answer to such a situation?  
And one might imagine it being a cancer patient instead of a 'rude' girl.  The characteristic is baldness, not whether they're flaunting authority.
btw, I don't have any problem with anyone wearing a veil or hijab if that is what they want to wear, whether or not it is personal taste, or cultural or religious priorities.  Just curious....

Not forgetting of course that for centuries, Roman Catholic nuns wore a wimple which completely covered most of their head, except the face.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 08:15
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13038095

Some European countries want to ban the full veil. I agree, or I'm going to start robbing banks. Hijab style. Here's your girlfriend Merkel boys; I finally agree with her :)




Germany

On 6 December 2016, Chancellor Angela Merkel said the wearing of full-faced veils should be prohibited in Germany "wherever it is legally possible".

Her comments, made at a CDU party meeting, came after plans to outlaw the burka - or any full-face veil - in public buildings were proposed by Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere in August.

There has been no national law restricting the wearing of veils in Germany prior to these proposals.

In September 2003 the federal Constitutional Court ruled in favour of a teacher who wanted to wear an Islamic scarf to school.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 08:18
http://independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/islamic-state-syrian-women-burn-burqas-burkas-in-celebration-after-being-freed-from-isis-manbij-sdf-a7173671.html

Syrian women burn burqas in celebration after being freed from Isis

'Damn this stupid invention that they made us wear,' a women said as she set her veil alight

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2017 at 03:21
I don't know why this post raised it's head at all. Many men these days shave their heads. Sinead O'Connor shaved hers years ago, what's the big deal?

As for the burquas, I don't agree with the full burqua or niqab being worn in public for safety reasons. People living in a western society should bend a little to try and fit in to their new home land.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2017 at 03:57
If the reason for the hijab in, say, to cover a woman's pride in her hair, then what about bald women?  It may seem ridiculous to you, but for religious police in Iran or Saudi Arabia, a woman covering her hair is _very_ important as a sign of modesty.

This is the mead hall, it is a light subject as if we are sharing a drink in a pub or coffeehouse.  No, it is not that serious for our culture.  
But for Iran or Soudi Arabia (it is interesting how they are enemies, and yet so close to each other in their dogma), if a woman has hair, she must cover it, what happens if the woman does not have hair?  Should religious police persecute her by their own logic or not?  What if the woman is a cancer patient?  Should she have to have her head covered, or would you argue with religious police that she should be given a break?  It is not that ridiculous when you realize that Saudi Arabia religious police wouldn't let girls come out of burning school years ago because they weren't covered.  They just let them burn.

Good point about the burqua.  Each society has its own standards, and method how it gets them. In the United States, there are good reasons for the face to be uncovered for purposes of identification and public discourse, but if a woman wants a head scarf, or any other head gear (same with a man, like a Sikh) or a Red Socks fan), that should be fine.  If a woman wants to wear a "birqini" on the beach, I don't think it should be a big deal, like it is in France, I don't think anyone is going to wear a birqini while robbing a bank.  Banks prohibit motorcycle helmet or sunglasses into a bank.  France in their anti-religious attitudes, don't like large crucifixes or yalmukas either.

You were in law enforcement, toyomotor, imagine that you are going to bring it up with religious police,  Wahhabis.  How would you appeal to these supposed "law enforcement" officers that some woman found without a hijab (or hair), should be given a break?



Edited by franciscosan - 04 Jul 2017 at 04:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2017 at 04:38
Buddhist women shave their heads its part of denial of the self and vanity. A Sunni and Shiite have more in common than not. I believe they split over the choice of succession of Mohammad and so the devout split into two groups. The Bedouin are Wahhabi, Sunnis like the Saudis. Bedouin are one of the oldest continual civilizations known even as Nomadic I think they qualify as a civilization.

In a society where people are sexually repressed it brings out the worst perversions. At some point the rule for women being covered was for their own protection and still is. In a strict Muslim country a woman un escorted is a women ravished. 

There are stories about how badly Muslim boys are beaten by mothers, aunts and sisters but at a certain age a male is expected to be the boss. That's a dynamic for total madness as a society.

Have you heard about the Afghani's Chai Boys? Afghans  are being trained by US troops who were essentially silenced when they tried to expose the sexual abuse of boys who are sold by their families to Afghan military officers. Boys are chained at night so they can't run away and it's pretty sickening to the US servicemen. They were told that it's a different culture (Obama Admin) and accept it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 09:46
Franciscosan
Quote You were in law enforcement, toyomotor, imagine that you are going to bring it up with religious police,  Wahhabis.  How would you appeal to these supposed "law enforcement" officers that some woman found without a hijab (or hair), should be given a break?

Well, supposing that situation arose, I was sufficiently high in rank to order that they obey my orders or I would have them, and their goats, shot, or hanged by  crane in the village square.LOL

But it is a serious for our culture, as more and more Muslim people enter  our countries, most as refugees.

As the Muslim people must adopt to our customs and traditions, so we must also learn to understand their customs and traditions, and, hopefully, help them transition to a middle ground where we will all be happy.

As I said earlier, in a western civilisation, I could not agree with total head and face covering in pubic for safety and security reasons. What they do in the privacy of their homes or mosques is, of course, their business.

But I digress. Many women around the world wear veils, which are translucent and pose no threat.

As for modern young women who choose to shave their heads, while I don't like the fashion, I say, "SO WHAT?"

I also don't like body peircing, or hideously coloured hair, but, SO WHAT?

I have tattoos!




Edited by toyomotor - 06 Jul 2017 at 09:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 21:42
So you would encourage tolerance, which is different than acceptance or embracing the difference.  

But you might imagine yourself in a far-off land, somewhere that you are not a law-enforcement officer, but someone who nevertheless is familiar with not necessarily the foreign culture, but familiar with the culture of law enforcement.  For me, I would probably be intimidated to bring up anything.  You, on the other hand, might just be familiar enough with law enforcement culture to say, "excuse me, she is not exactly breaking the spirit of the law, she's not showing off her hair which is said to be a woman's pride, because she doesn't have any."  
If I tried to do that in Saudi Arabia, or wherever, it would come across as a confrontation, but I imagine, you as an experienced law enforcement officer, might be able to pull it off.

Of course, this is a silly question, but imagine that we are in a bar, just killing time, having had a few.  Of course, I would drink coffee since I don't drink anything stronger, as I would expect would be the case for anyone from an Islamic country, to whom the question might be more real.

I would hope that someone from an Islamic country, if they were in our country, would not be so shocked by a bald girl.  After all, some of the radicalization of the Arab world is from visitors coming over here and becoming shocked at our ways.

I tend to dislike tattoos on women, piercings and odd hair in general, but I think like you, I generally consider it their business, their idea, although not necessarily a good one.  
I think there is a basis for tattoos with a 'tribal' identity (I use that term loosely), or for sailors since a body blown over board, might be washed up without identification.  
I like the biblical consideration that the body is a temple, and should not be marred with piercings or tattoos, but I believe that attitude should be chosen freely, and so enforcing it without understanding, is self-defeating of developing an ethics on free will.
But please relax a little toyomotor, have another Fosters, and add your two cents, or if you don't like this thread in the Mead Hall, start another:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 04:29
Guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Geisha s show off the nape of the neck as it was considered the sexiest part of a woman at one time. The internet may have altered that opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 07:37
Franciscosan

Don't twist what I say! I didn't say tolerate rather than embrace, that's a whole different argument. But, yes, embrace, understand tolerate, all of those words. But the OP was about bald heads and veils, not about specific religeons or peoples, and, getting back to the OP, having digressed and shared my opinion on burquas and niqabs, I reiterate, SO WHAT. Get over it.

Vive la difference!
(And while we're on it, why single out women, half the adult population is married to one.)


Edited by toyomotor - 07 Jul 2017 at 07:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 20:14
Ohhh, I am a sultan now! :)

toyomotor

sorry, "tolerate" was my interpretation.  My point was that "tolerate" means you don't have to like it, but you accept them as an individual in society.  Some PC individuals don't consider "toleration" to be enough.  They're not happy unless your fawning all over them about their choice.  Look at how some in the media treat Bradley/Chelsea Manning.  They're besides themselves with pseudo-joy, gushing about how great he/she is.  Whatever.

I "tolerate" the bald barista and her stubbled head.  It looks ugly to me, but then again, she's young, and being old, I am not part of her social world, she is not doing it for my sake.  I "understand" that and I "understand" some of the reasons why she does it, attention, a desire to stand out, and participating in an alternate life style.  Her hair will grow back.  So ultimately in our society, it is not a big deal, in Saudi Arabia or Iran in might cause a major run in with the religious police.  In Pakistan or India, it might spur an acid attack.  I am glad the bald barista doesn't think of such things much, but I say "much," because if I think of them, she might.  So as far as "so what?" in some societies it could be an issue, a very dangerous issue indeed.  Of course, our society can be dangerous too.  In Arabic society, one probably has a very good sense of who one is, "every Arab has his tribe." said T.E. Lawrence.  For some people, too much freedom is as dangerous as not enough, I think of people who seem to have everything and fall into drug addiction.

Islam is mentioned in my original post, it provides the context.  I think it is interesting what Vanuatu has done with her example of buddhist nuns, or your example of Catholic nuns with a wimple.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 22:22
Yes, in some countries it could be a deadly issue, you're right. But in my posts I've referred to western countrries where attitudes are different. I've tried to steer away from religeon-the elephant in the room.

As long as some people choose to live in the 15th Century there's not a lot we can do about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2017 at 03:52
In the western world the shaved head and piercing are a demonstration of freedom in a way. Seems like it's just serving a different master, not religion but cultural worship.

In the Muslim countries the veil or full body hefty bag appear to be repressive. Can you imagine the unrest if one Muslim country ( currently orthodox) gave women an option on the veil? 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2017 at 05:27
Vanuatu
Yes, but hasn't one country recently relaxed rules on burqhas and driving motor vehicles?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2017 at 22:25
I think there are decent people everywhere, and everywhen.  I include those who we might judge as "living in the 15th century."  It is a matter of being willing to be in dialogue with others in order to convince others, but also to be convinced if that is where the logic of the argument leads.  Deal with individuals without prejudging where the argument has to lead.

I believe the US Supreme Court has ruled in the past that a flag shirt (or other such things) are a matter of free expression, now other societies would not see it that way, and they have their cogent reasons for regulating dress.

I think it would be interesting for Vanuatu to try on a burqha and share pictures with us<grin>.  But, seriously, we westerners assume it is kind of oppressive, but we don't really know.  It would be an empirical experiment, although i don't know where you would get one, maybe "burqhas are us."  As my mother would say about Brussel sprouts (cabbage fetuses), 'might be the best thing you every ate!"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2017 at 11:26
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu
Yes, but hasn't one country recently relaxed rules on burqhas and driving motor vehicles?

Do you know which country ? I didn't hear about that. Can't say I'm overly impressed. When they stop female circumcision then I'll pay attention.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2017 at 15:10
I think it was one of the Arab Oil States.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2017 at 17:30
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I think it was one of the Arab Oil States.


There was this recent news story about a Saudi woman. She drove her purple Cadillac with an escort because she wanted to. Nothing bad happened to her but the law hadn't changed, just FYI. 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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