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Battle of the Breasts

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    Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 11:21
Do not know if this thread belongs here but I will try:
 
In the year 2007 two young girls entered a bathhouse in the Swedish town of Uppsala. They went out in to the hall, where the pool is, topless and some guard told them that it was forbidden to go topless in the the big hall. After some arguments they left the bathhouse. After a while they filed a complaint to the  JAMO (Jamstalldhetsombudsmannen) an oficial whos task it is to fight different forms of diskrimination in Sweden. JAMO did not take up the case, but it lead to a lot of writings in the press and to a sort of women movement claiming the right to go topless in public baths. These women claim that if men has the right to go barebreasted than so would also women, otherwise it is diskrimination and against equality between the sexes. Actions have since the incident in Uppsala also taken place in other cities, where women have entered bathouses topless just to protest against what they see as discrimination.
 
So what is your opinion about these things? Maybe not an important issue in woman history of equality but rather amuzing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 11:30
Its amusing, certainly.

I feel the woman's rights movement should really consider picking up their P45s. Every so often they come out with some nonsense such as 'positive discrimination' or 'women's days'. Essentially they are moving the movement away from equality to another, more dangerous breed of entitlement based subservience. I don't think they've learnt anything from the experience of the Civil Rights movement in the States. That movement moved sharply away from seeking equality to seeking entitlements, which did little to calm the racial tensions in that country. Just look at how their urban landscape changed in the last 40 years and examine how so many American cities turned into crime ridden ghettoes. Not that the same thing is going to happen with womens rights movements (Can you imagine exclusively female ghettoes???) but they are trying to take women as a whole down a path that they don't have the representation for. There is a reason why so many 21st century women, usually educated women, try to distance themselves from the feminist movement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 11:40
My opinion is that women, who have been given breasts of an especially enlarged type which are considered an especially sexual part of the body, should recognise that most in the community consider this part of the body a private area as much as a person's rear or their genitals.

If enough women wish to go to a sauna bare breasted, then a commercially minded individual should be free to establish such a sauna where it is their explicit policy that women may go there bare breasted. If the women do not mind the many stares and uncomfortable sexual advances of men in such a sauna, then fine.

However, they should not attempt to impose their individual interpretations of morality on the community at large, who do consider a woman's breasts to be an especially erotic part of the body and therefore should be properly concealed when in a public place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 11:41
I agree with Parnell.

I'll add to that there seems to be confusion about what sex discrimination actually is now. Wearing clothes is not discrimination (I seriously can't believe I just wrote that sentence). I don't know how feminist movements got the idea that the more clothes you wear is proportional to the more you are oppressed, but it certainly isn't true.
In my experience feminists who push that idea (usually alongside career orientated life) are the number one oppressive social pressure for modern young women.


PS. I agree with CXI as well.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 07 Aug 2009 at 11:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 11:58
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Its amusing, certainly.

 I don't think they've learnt anything from the experience of the Civil Rights movement in the States. That movement moved sharply away from seeking equality to seeking entitlements, which did little to calm the racial tensions in that country. Just look at how their urban landscape changed in the last 40 years and examine how so many American cities turned into crime ridden ghettoes.
 
Is there no other causes to increased criminality and formation of ghettos than the Civil Rights movement? Has it not to do with economic inbalancies and inequality in the American society? And powerty and criminality is seen in several groups.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 12:06
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

I agree with Parnell.

I'll add to that there seems to be confusion about what sex discrimination actually is now. Wearing clothes is not discrimination (I seriously can't believe I just wrote that sentence). I don't know how feminist movements got the idea that the more clothes you wear is proportional to the more you are oppressed, but it certainly isn't true.
In my experience feminists who push that idea (usually alongside career orientated life) are the number one oppressive social pressure for modern young women.
PS. I agree with CXI as well.
 
The matter of clothes seem always be in the discussion. For example, here in Sweden (and in other European countries as France and Denmark) the muslim veil has came into focus when discussing muslims and muslim immigrants. The veil is seen as a symbol of opression against women and a symbol of patriarchal power structures. So there has been a lot of discussions to forbid the veil for girls under the age of 15 or to ban it in schools. At the same time religious freedom is inscribed in the law so it has become a rather tricky question. 
Some women, engaged in womens lib movements see the matter of clothes as an expression of patriarchal ways of controlling women, their bodies and their sexuality.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 12:29
I agree with Constantine. That part of the body is considered private while the same area on men is not. However, to see it from another point of view, why should we be ashamed of our body? The abnormal thing is that we're ashamed not that some decide to swim naked.

If some people wish to go naked then it is ok by me.

Now, if private areas of the body (practically speaking, those who trigger sexual attention whether some like it or not) are allowed in public, what would happen if one of these ladies saw an old man getting his jumbo erected because of the view? Knowing that feminist movements in Sweden can be less moderate, such a scenario would raise many reactions towards men that would not control their fellas.

Generally, i do not take this action seriously because it is for the sake of political correctness within feminist movements in Sweden. If they did it because they believed that "people should not be ashamed of their bodies" then they would have my full support and admiration.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 12:48
So, the kernel of these women's argument is that men can show that area of their bodies, but women can't. Therefore, they accept that exposure of male or female genetalia in such a public place would be wrong, as neither has the right to do so. Therefore, they reject the assertion that the female breast constitutes private parts. I am unsure of the law in Sweden, but surely this comes down to indecent exposure? It is ok for a female to expose her breast(s) when breast feeding in public, ok to go topless on a beach, as there is a reasonable expectation that they will be seen, and ok to go topless in their own back garden, so long as they are not imposing themselves on the common viewpoint of others. The problem is, the nudity itself is not a crime, per se, it is the impact the nudity has on others that could make it so. If someone indicates that they are genuinely insulted by the nudity of others, and had no oppurtunity to expect or avoid the interaction, then the nude can be arrested for indecent exposure. So, all in all, these women can, in my view, go topless in a public bath, so long as all those who would be expected to use this space have a reasonable knowledge of what they might and might not see. If they are fully aware of this, then they do not have to attend, and can't complain about indecency. If the owner decides that these people are harming his business or alienating his customers, a policy statement outlining the rules of his establishment can be erected and thus the problem would not arise. A statuatory right to nudity is an impossibilty, i'm afraid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 12:55
Very good points Dolphin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 12:55
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

INow, if private areas of the body (practically speaking, those who trigger sexual attention whether some like it or not) are allowed in public, what would happen if one of these ladies saw an old man getting his jumbo erected because of the view? Knowing that feminist movements in Sweden can be less moderate, such a scenario would raise many reactions towards men that would not control their fellas.
 
Maybe some of these women would say as one well known women lib spokes(wo)man, Valerie Solana, wrote about men: To call a man an animal is to flatter him: he is a machine, a walking dildo, a biological accident.
 
Hmmm, I wonder how they would feel if there were no men?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 13:04
Ok, such statements are insane. That is equal to racism like many other things. I don't think we should take such women as an example nor do i think that feminists around the world want to be related to miss Valerie Solana.

Now here's what i found in an interview of the members in DN.Se

"Det ska inte uppfattas som sexuellt att kvinnor går barbröstade i simhallen, det är inte en sexuell situation, säger Sanna Ferm."

"The fact that women walk around topless in swimming pools, shall not be regarded sexual, it is not a sexual situation".

Now, that is really naive and irresponsible to say. In an ideal world things would be like that or better said in an age when it is no longer regarded sexual you can make such a statement. The reality now is different and before things can take full effect many many many people have to change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 13:06
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Its amusing, certainly.

 I don't think they've learnt anything from the experience of the Civil Rights movement in the States. That movement moved sharply away from seeking equality to seeking entitlements, which did little to calm the racial tensions in that country. Just look at how their urban landscape changed in the last 40 years and examine how so many American cities turned into crime ridden ghettoes.
 
Is there no other causes to increased criminality and formation of ghettos than the Civil Rights movement? Has it not to do with economic inbalancies and inequality in the American society? And powerty and criminality is seen in several groups.


Of course, perhaps I didn't put my point across too well. What I was trying to portray was that the Civil Rights movement took a move away from the persuit of equality, particularly following MLK's death, to a persuit of entitlements. The ghettoes are only roughly related to that, the point I was trying to make was that the Civil Rights movement eventually did achieve legal equality if not cultural equality, but the persuit of entitlements served only to alienate American whites even further and deeply embed racial prejudice along cultural lines. The ghettoes, from a literal point of view, were a result of 'white flight' from the inner cities. Once Irish/Italian/Polish/Swedish etc. dominated districts became Black/Hispanic/Asian dominated areas in the space of a decade. Of course there is much more to this development than the failures of the Civil Rights movement, but I do find it somewhat amusing that the feminist movement fails to recognise the same mistakes that the American Civil Rights groups made. (And still make)
http://xkcd.com/15/



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 13:21
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Ok, such statements are insane. That is equal to racism like many other things. I don't think we should take such women as an example nor do i think that feminists around the world want to be related to miss Valerie Solana.

Now here's what i found in an interview of the members in DN.Se

"Det ska inte uppfattas som sexuellt att kvinnor går barbröstade i simhallen, det är inte en sexuell situation, säger Sanna Ferm."

"The fact that women walk around topless in swimming pools, shall not be regarded sexual, it is not a sexual situation".

Now, that is really naive and irresponsible to say. In an ideal world things would be like that or better said in an age when it is no longer regarded sexual you can make such a statement. The reality now is different and before things can take full effect many many many people have to change.
 
I have heard some women say that they actually have the right to walk alone, half naked, through the town in the middle of the night without being harassed or being in danger of being raped. That, they say, is their right as citizens and as women. And as long as they cannot do that they are living in a patriarchal society, victims of the gender power structure (koensmaktsordningen).
 
And of course women should have the right to go topless, or even more to go alone through the city in the night, but still things are what they are. As you say, many people have to change first.
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 07 Aug 2009 at 13:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 13:38
What if the scenario is a man walking naked?

a) Some women will curse him and who knows what they will say.
b) Some women may find him attractive and tell him some words of sexual content as well.

What does that tell a no-MAM member then? That we live in a matriarchical society? Wacko

Besides with that logic, some men that like unfortunately to terrorize women by swinging their "fella" would be justified somehow. They would say "if they can show them, we can show them". It is a wrong approach.

It is all about realism...People get fanatic and do not look at the root of the problem.

I really don't have anything against a society where walking naked is not bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 15:05

Well I guarantee one thing for you, obesity rates will really go down sharply in Sweden. Plus its good for business. All these women will eventually need plastic surgery to fix their boobs because of all the toplessness.

What is next for the women movment? women urinals?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote egyptian goddess Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 15:29
hm. interesting thread so far. I had a full rebuttal to everything (since I thought it was time an actual chick contributed to this discussion) but unfortuntaley my internet went crazy and I lost it allOuch 
 
I will re-type it all up again (perhaps when I'm less fatigued and collected all my thoughts again), but so far on what I've seen- some of the comments made have been true, some false... some irrelevant to the point of offensive. So as one of the few girls on this site, I will contribute a full response to this very very soon. (I'm still really angry my previous post was lost though...argh!!!)


Edited by egyptian goddess - 07 Aug 2009 at 15:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 18:35
''Jamstalldhetsombudsmannen''
 
Woah! that's a mouthful! What's the longest Swedish word?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 19:39
We have some very construed words but if one still will be able to say them fluently words like jamstalldhetsombudsmannen or diskrimineringsombudsmannen is among the longest still managable.
 
diskrimineringsombudsmannen is an oficial that fights discrimination of different kind.
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^ThanksSmile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 21:28
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
I have heard some women say that they actually have the right to walk alone, half naked, through the town in the middle of the night without being harassed or being in danger of being raped. That, they say, is their right as citizens and as women. And as long as they cannot do that they are living in a patriarchal society, victims of the gender power structure (koensmaktsordningen).
 
 
Well, if a person is stupid enough she can say any sort of silly thing. The whole topless affair was ridiculous, and nobody really cares about these fanatics.
 
 



Edited by Styrbiorn - 03 Mar 2010 at 08:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeannie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2009 at 17:08
Of course, imposing dress requirements on one class of citizen and not on others is discriminatory. And requiring that women wear enveloping clothing such as a burqa (or requiring subservient behaviors such as keeping their eyes lowered in public) is discriminatory. There is CERTAINLY a corollary between requiring restrictive clothing and discrimination against women.

Women's breasts are enlarged for feeding of the young. They are not genitalia.

For years, breasts have been routinely bared on many beaches and it does not mean women are routinely attacked.  Women's breasts have been routinely bared in many cultures. Women being attacked has more to do with that being the societal norm and accepted behavior than sexuality. Anyone who says that women are attacked or abused because of their clothing (or lack of it) needs to look to themselves and their attitudes toward women and not to women's behaviors.  I've known of cases of habitted nuns being raped.

Most feminists consider going topless too minor to fight rather than not discriminatory. There are simply more important issues in the world. However, any woman who is aware enough to act against such constraints certainly has my understanding.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

I agree with Parnell.

I'll add to that there seems to be confusion about what sex discrimination actually is now. Wearing clothes is not discrimination (I seriously can't believe I just wrote that sentence). I don't know how feminist movements got the idea that the more clothes you wear is proportional to the more you are oppressed, but it certainly isn't true.
In my experience feminists who push that idea (usually alongside career orientated life) are the number one oppressive social pressure for modern young women.


PS. I agree with CXI as well.


Edited by Jeannie - 09 Aug 2009 at 17:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gruvawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 23:27
restrictive clothing?

my dad has always said that "the right to swing your fist in the air ends at the tip of my nose". thus, a woman's right to flop out her hooters ends at my visual range!

why is nuclear bomb testing bad? because atoms are evil? because... nuclear reactions are evil? no, nuclear testing is bad because of the effect it has on the environment. boobs can cause traffic accidents even when they're bundled up against the cold, and if they were all freed all of a sudden like so many balloons at a gas station grand opening then the whole world would come to a 'screeching' halt!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 00:09
From a practical POV, seeing as many would find barebreasted women uhm...visually imposing? It would make sense to have some sort of dress code that respects the sensibilities of most people, even though I don't understand why people find it offensive in a public bath but not on beaches. 

However in principle I think our social conditioning towards shame of our bodies and covering up certain parts that are considered less "pure" is psychologically destructive, and I'm quite pleased with the increasing tendency towards social acceptance for nudity in many parts of the world. Our innocence may have been lost at some poit, but I think it's possible to reclaim it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 10:23
Originally posted by gruvawn gruvawn wrote:

restrictive clothing?

my dad has always said that "the right to swing your fist in the air ends at the tip of my nose". thus, a woman's right to flop out her hooters ends at my visual range!

why is nuclear bomb testing bad? because atoms are evil? because... nuclear reactions are evil? no, nuclear testing is bad because of the effect it has on the environment. boobs can cause traffic accidents even when they're bundled up against the cold, and if they were all freed all of a sudden like so many balloons at a gas station grand opening then the whole world would come to a 'screeching' halt!


Well, if we should ban everything that some people find visually offensive or challenging than we must ban much of the public art, we must forbid ugly buildings (that mean we must tear down some towns or cities completely) and other ugly things. Of course we must forbid public advertisement since it can disturb some peoples view of the world (especially those that find such expressions of raw capitalism disturbing). The list can go on and on. We live in a world of visual impressions and to single out the human body as a particularly offensive thing and propose that it should be hidden because someone can be disturbed by it is rather illogical. Such thinking is actually derived from paranoid consepts from old religions with a hostile attitude towards sexuality and nudity. One can hope that we soon shall be able to shake of such old delusions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 11:00
Originally posted by Carch Carch wrote:

Well, if we should ban everything that some people find visually offensive...


No one is arguing that, but we are arguing there should be prohibitions on things most people find visually offensive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 13:49
To find a persons body visually offensive is in a way to show contempt for that person, after all it is how he/she really looks. Maybe it is time that we liberate ourself from the grip of old religions that in their core are hostile against sexuality and even to humanity itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 13:53
Those darn religions are so against sex. Now if "We" could only stop them from reproducing. Those flocks are getting rather large.

Carch, speak for yourself my man. Pluralizing your beliefs is stretching it a bit. Change the 'we' to 'my next time and we will know your insecurities a lot better. Write a book too; "The World According to Carch". Smile I would visit that world. Beautiful ladies with no tops prancing about lusting after the sekoman. Wake me when my dream is over please.


Edited by Seko - 03 Mar 2010 at 13:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 14:22
Unfortunately so many people in the world today are completely caught up in religious prejudice and superstitious beliefs that one really has to call for a liberation of the many.
 
But some people in the world has still a more relaxed view of their bodies and are able to go around more or less naked. If they are allowed.


Edited by Carcharodon - 03 Mar 2010 at 14:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dawn- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 15:52
Did you know that in Canada it is legal for a woman to go topless down the street or anywhere else a man can go without a top?  In the mid  90's the laws were tested in court and overturned. Now did this create a mass of topless women walking about - no. It just faded into the background and life went on.  Lots of times - people want what they can't have. Once they get it it becomes unimportant and life goes on.  The girls in the bath house are just after publicity.   
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gruvawn View Drop Down
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Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Location: usually indiana
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Points: 83
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gruvawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 17:22
i didnt say to ban anything. there are nude beaches and other places for baring your assets to the world. i didnt say anything about religion. not wanting to see your pink bits, is like not wanting you to spam my email.

apparently the point was missed in my first post that its the effect you have on other people that is the difference. you cant walk down the street naked and be offended if some man looks at you the wrong way! you have to choose one or the other. walking fully clothed down the street and getting oogled then your righteous indignation is justified. what if i want to walk down the street yelling obscenities, or racial epithets or whatever it is you personally find inappropriate, it would make you mad, right? thats the effect. i can do that somewhere else and exercise my freedom. if i do that in front of your house do you have a right to ask me to leave? do i have a right to tell you to cover you windows or turn up your stereo so you wont hear me? you're so concerned about you own rights that you'll laugh triumphantly watching everyone elses rights get trampled! i support your right to be nude somewhere, but you dont support my right not to be there!

"the right to do something is not at all the same as being right in doing it"- gk chesterton.



Edited by gruvawn - 03 Mar 2010 at 17:24
don't believe everything you think. : )
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