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Beautiful indgenous clothes and adornment

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2010 at 15:45
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

 This is precisely the kind of thing that shows the whole 'indigenous peoples' movement is little less than a political correct form of racism.  
So if people want to keep their own cultures (or at least parts of it) and their own land it is suddenly racism?

Yes.

If Swedish, Dutch or American people argue against foreigners and struggle to keep their culture clean or free from foreign influences no sane person would deny they are racists (or at least xenophobes). I don't see why they same shouldn't go for indigenous people. 
 
Because in Sweden Netherlands or America people are able to self choose (by democratic processes as elections or similar) if they want some immigration or foreign influence, they can also choose how much of immigration or foreign influence they want.

So if Swedes and Dutch elect to expell all muslims and Americans all Mexicans you'd be ok with that?

Quote
Often the aboriginal peoples have no such choise. They just get invaded and many times displaced against their will. Many times their cultures have also been run over be the foreignerss, often with force or manipulation. 
Ofcourse they ought to have the right to protest against that.
By your logic invaded peoples like the French, or Russians during WWII would have been racists because they protested against, or fought the German invasion.

Not comparable. Those were military occupations, and a minority pushing their will onto a majority at that. Latin America has been populated by Europeans and their descendants for 500 years. European influences in the Americas are not any more 'foreign' than Native influences. There's a big difference between 'invaders' and 'locally born people whose ancestors happened to be the invaders 500 years ago'.

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

 
My fault. I should have said 'Spanish America' instead of 'Latin America'. (I know too little about Portuguese colonial policy in Brazil to say anything sensible about it.)


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Well, these clothes are not typical Spanish:
<span ="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: x-small;">http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/dec2006/20061204_achuar.jpg</span>

Of course they aren't. Because the Spanish never conquered the Achuar. The same goes for Lacandons or Selk'nam. You can't force laws on people you don't control. Of course you're going to find small tribes that have been almost without contact with the outside world until the 20th century that still wear pre-columbian-style clothing, but the vast majority (tens of millions of people) of indigenous Latin Americans wear Spanish clothing. Or do you believe bowler hats are a pre-Columbian Andean custom?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2010 at 20:17
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

 
So if Swedes and Dutch elect to expell all muslims and Americans all Mexicans you'd be ok with that?

Must we always drag the problems with muslim immigration into all discussions?? Better to open a separate thread on that issue.

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

 Not comparable. Those were military occupations, and a minority pushing their will onto a majority at that. Latin America has been populated by Europeans and their descendants for 500 years. European influences in the Americas are not any more 'foreign' than Native influences. There's a big difference between 'invaders' and 'locally born people whose ancestors happened to be the invaders 500 years ago'.

It is indeed comparable, since invasion still is invasion. 
Even today there are invasions on aboriginal peoples land. The mainstream societies expand their territories into land that belongs to the natives. That is indeed a form of invasion. 
Also the mainstream societies impose their will, their cultures, religions and ways of life on the indigenous peoples, which is a form of cultural imperialism and ethnocide. 
And one shall not forget that many of the mainstrem invasions into aboriginal land also takes place with the help of military or other force.

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

 Of course they aren't. Because the Spanish never conquered the Achuar. The same goes for Lacandons or Selk'nam. You can't force laws on people you don't control. Of course you're going to find small tribes that have been almost without contact with the outside world until the 20th century that still wear pre-columbian-style clothing, but the vast majority (tens of millions of people) of indigenous Latin Americans wear Spanish clothing. Or do you believe bowler hats are a pre-Columbian Andean custom?

Even some Spanish influenced  groups have managed to keep a style of their own that is apart from the ordinary, so called modern clothing styles. Some mixing of elements have always been there (also indigenous groups have influenced each other), but still you can discern an identity of their own.

And many smaller tribes have actually been in contact with the invaders but they have themselves choosen to avoid them or letting their culture (including clothing style) overrun them.




Edited by Carcharodon - 09 Jul 2010 at 20:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 09:56
Carch, you are aware that the Tule (i.e., Cuna, San Blas) clothing for women was dictated by their great Seer, Nele Kantule, after some years spent among the French? Ergo, the Tule dress for women is drawn from 19th Century European styles blended with indigenous motifs! Ditto with Panama's Guami, whose dress is somewhat similar to that of Southeastern U.S. tribes after the arrival of colonists. You might have been better to have chosen the Chokoi of Panama, who dress is identical to that of Amazonian tribes.

Also in re:  "Both Christianity and Islam are expansive, intolerant religions whos adherents many times try to force their ways on others."

That must be why the Republic of Vietnam forces its indigenous Central Vietnamese tribes to forego the traditional loincloth (wound up in back like a sumo wrestler's garb) in men's wear, substituting something drawn from Western movies (flaps in front and back), and their women to wear blouses. Of course, it could be worse, back under Emperor Minh Mang, a decree was issued required the tribes and Khmer to wear Vietnamese dress. (blouses and trousers for women). Two examples of some really radical Christian or Muslim regimes. (and, yes, Vietnam even has a Muslin minoority among the Cham.)


Edited by lirelou - 30 Aug 2010 at 10:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 21:31
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Carch, you are aware that the Tule (i.e., Cuna, San Blas) clothing for women was dictated by their great Seer, Nele Kantule, after some years spent among the French?



What, what? Dictated you say?  Carch you're disgusting for praising and patronising such oppression against women.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 02:40
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Carch, you are aware that the Tule (i.e., Cuna, San Blas) clothing for women was dictated by their great Seer, Nele Kantule, after some years spent among the French? Ergo, the Tule dress for women is drawn from 19th Century European styles blended with indigenous motifs! Ditto with Panama's Guami, whose dress is somewhat similar to that of Southeastern U.S. tribes after the arrival of colonists. You might have been better to have chosen the Chokoi of Panama, who dress is identical to that of Amazonian tribes.
 
There are always exceptions. Also indigenous cultures can sometimes impose things on their members, noone denies that, but you have to see it in the light of comparison with the more agressive, culturally imperialistic religions and cultures.

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Also in re:  "Both Christianity and Islam are expansive, intolerant religions whos adherents many times try to force their ways on others."

That must be why the Republic of Vietnam forces its indigenous Central Vietnamese tribes to forego the traditional loincloth (wound up in back like a sumo wrestler's garb) in men's wear, substituting something drawn from Western movies (flaps in front and back), and their women to wear blouses. Of course, it could be worse, back under Emperor Minh Mang, a decree was issued required the tribes and Khmer to wear Vietnamese dress. (blouses and trousers for women). Two examples of some really radical Christian or Muslim regimes. (and, yes, Vietnam even has a Muslin minoority among the Cham.)
 
Well, to decide others clothing can also be used by other cultures as a means of excersise power (as the Qing did in China concerning hair style), still the impact of Christianity and Islam has a much wider distribution and thus a greater impact on many more people, even today.
 
Seldom have other cultures so recentlessy forced clothes and other symbols on other peoples, and fought those peoples more traditional clothing and symbols, even if it sometimes has contributed in sacrificing those peoples health, from North America to the Amazon to Patagonia, to Polynesia, to Sudan and other places. To control other peoples clothes have been a part of the western colonialistic project, and also for muslims it serves as a means of controlling others.
 
Here is a little example from USA about hair style. Still today some US Native Americans cannot have their own hairstyles in their own country:
 
 
First invaders steal Native Americans land, then they steal their right to express themselves through hairstyle, clothes or adornment.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 31 Aug 2010 at 02:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 03:09
clothing changes are a process of cultural assimilation, which has been happening long before the dawn of Christianity, Islam, or the emergence of the so-called "Western world".

THe natives of Egypt once wore loin cloths, shaved their heads and wore wigs. When the Romans came, many of them adopted Roman tunics and did away with the wigs. When the Arabs came they began to grow beards and don the "Chilaba" and the turban....
The ancient Iberians also dressed in their own fashion until the Romans came during which they gradually adopted Roman tunics.

Russians and Ukrainians who drifted to the steppes in the 1500s and 1600s often adopted the clothing and hairstyle of the Turkic-Mongol peoples who inhabited the region before them.

The Ancient Chinese used to wear their hair long. When the Manchu dynasty was established in China they imposed the "cues" on the Chinese population. Yet when China became a republic, people cut the cues and worn their hair "western style".

In the "west", 100 years ago everyone wore more or less the same haircut, now we have heavy metallers with long hair, punks, dreadlocks, skinheads.... and all sorts.

It's all a continuously developing process.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 04:04
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

clothing changes are a process of cultural assimilation, which has been happening long before the dawn of Christianity, Islam, or the emergence of the so-called "Western world".

THe natives of Egypt once wore loin cloths, shaved their heads and wore wigs. When the Romans came, many of them adopted Roman tunics and did away with the wigs. When the Arabs came they began to grow beards and don the "Chilaba" and the turban....
The ancient Iberians also dressed in their own fashion until the Romans came during which they gradually adopted Roman tunics.

Russians and Ukrainians who drifted to the steppes in the 1500s and 1600s often adopted the clothing and hairstyle of the Turkic-Mongol peoples who inhabited the region before them.

The Ancient Chinese used to wear their hair long. When the Manchu dynasty was established in China they imposed the "cues" on the Chinese population. Yet when China became a republic, people cut the cues and worn their hair "western style".

In the "west", 100 years ago everyone wore more or less the same haircut, now we have heavy metallers with long hair, punks, dreadlocks, skinheads.... and all sorts.

It's all a continuously developing process.
 
Yes, indeed clothes have been a part of different assimilation and/or domination processes for very long, as in the examples you show. And still it is so. What I wanted to mention in this thread is the cases where invading, large scale cultures (as our western one) invade and infiltrate the lands and cultures of smaller indigenous groups and in the name of ideological, economic, religious and cultural assimilation coerce, or force them into abandoning their own artistic expressions in body paint, hairstyle, adornment and clothes, at the same time as they steal indigenous land and also some times physically displace these peoples. Both economically and culturally they are taking away something and the things the indigenous peoples get back are not always able to replace the things they lost.
Sometimes these processes leads to both cultural and, in the worst cases, to physical eradication.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 04:09
OK Carch, you've broken the rules and forgotten the old adage: Don't mess with Texas!
 
Your source is more than geographically challenged as caught in this passage:
 
The leaders of the Needville school district have strict rules about long hair on boys and don't see any reason to make an exception in this case. Needville's dress and grooming code, which does not allow hair past the collar or eyes for boys, is similar to other rural districts' in the Houston region.

Fort Bend County is hardly "rural" by any stretch of contemporary imagination...
 
Now as for the intricacies of the parents here (the father Kenney Arocha) desiring to make a "court case" on this matter, your usual double-speak on the "indigenes" is quite a stretch:
 
 
As matters stand within the various Texas ISDs, I would not be surprised if by age 12 good old Ariel does not sport a gooed up Mohawk dyed a bright orange with hardly a mutter heard anywhere. As for his purported "Native American" standing...well read and be informed:
 
 
Geez...reading the Internet in depth must be hazardous to your mental health, Carch!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 04:12
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

OK Carch, you've broken the rules and forgotten the old adage: Don't mess with Texas!
 
Your source is more than geographically challenged as caught in this passage:
 
The leaders of the Needville school district have strict rules about long hair on boys and don't see any reason to make an exception in this case. Needville's dress and grooming code, which does not allow hair past the collar or eyes for boys, is similar to other rural districts' in the Houston region.

Fort Bend County is hardly "rural" by any stretch of contemporary imagination...
 
Now as for the intricacies of the parents here (the father Kenney Arocha) desiring to make a "court case" on this matter, your usual double-speak on the "indigenes" is quite a stretch:
 
 
As matters stand within the various Texas ISDs, I would not be surprised if by age 12 good old Ariel does not sport a gooed up Mohawk dyed a bright orange with hardly a mutter heard anywhere. As for his purported "Native American" standing...well read and be informed:
 
 
Geez...reading the Internet in depth must be hazardous to your mental health, Carch!
 
Ehh, what is the meaning of your post? Shall they cut his hair or what?
 
This is hardly the first case in history when Americans want to change Native Americans hairstyle, clothing, ornament or behaviour.


Edited by Carcharodon - 31 Aug 2010 at 04:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 04:17
READ! Darn it! Read...then you would not need to post such silly questions or render such absurd analogies!
 
Haggling over school "dress codes"  indicates but one thing certain people just have too much time on their hands! Did you know that in the 1950s you could not wear shoes without socks to school? And as for those greasy "ducktails"..."Brylcream, a little dab will do you!" I believe you need to sit through a screening of Hairspray
 
By the way, do you really know the history of the "Lipan" Apache?
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 31 Aug 2010 at 04:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 04:18
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

READ! Darn it! Read...then you would not need to post such silly questions!
 
Well, sometimes you have a tendancy to express yourself in a rather incoherent way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 04:26
CensoredCoherence? ROTFLMAO...are you attempting to scale new heights in the landscape of the Non Sequiturs?
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 31 Aug 2010 at 04:31
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Let's all please take a few deep breaths and try to get along with each other. I love both of you guys, and I'll throw a tantrum if you start fighting. I could cry Cry, or even hold my breath until I turn blue Pinch. You guys wouldn't want that on your consciences, would you? Wink

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Edited by Akolouthos - 31 Aug 2010 at 04:46
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C'mon Ako don't be a spoilsport! I am having an uproarious time testing to what lengths Carch will go in the abandonment of simple common sense for the sake of ideological tenets--OK let us not demean the ideological, better stated--for the sake of propagandistic notions. The topic starts on dress and the quaintness of the folk then suddenly veers onto the vagaries of the American social structure and the realm of the PC before US Law within the context of "religion" no less! Now if poor Adriel Arocha had been demanding the sporting of a penis sheath at school on the premise that it was a "right of dress"...oh, I can not go on without chortling and guffawing!LOL
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CryPinchAngryShockedWackoPinchDisapproveCryCry

(that was just a taste of my fury) Wink
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 08:19
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

C'mon Ako don't be a spoilsport! I am having an uproarious time testing to what lengths Carch will go in the abandonment of simple common sense for the sake of ideological tenets--OK let us not demean the ideological, better stated--for the sake of propagandistic notions. The topic starts on dress and the quaintness of the folk then suddenly veers onto the vagaries of the American social structure and the realm of the PC before US Law within the context of "religion" no less! Now if poor Adriel Arocha had been demanding the sporting of a penis sheath at school on the premise that it was a "right of dress"...oh, I can not go on without chortling and guffawing!LOL
 
Well, I included hairstyle also since it is related to the matter of clothes and adornment.
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Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

OK Carch, you've broken the rules and forgotten the old adage: Don't mess with Texas!
 
Your source is more than geographically challenged as caught in this passage:
 
The leaders of the Needville school district have strict rules about long hair on boys and don't see any reason to make an exception in this case. Needville's dress and grooming code, which does not allow hair past the collar or eyes for boys, is similar to other rural districts' in the Houston region.

Fort Bend County is hardly "rural" by any stretch of contemporary imagination...
 
Now as for the intricacies of the parents here (the father Kenney Arocha) desiring to make a "court case" on this matter, your usual double-speak on the "indigenes" is quite a stretch:
 
 
As matters stand within the various Texas ISDs, I would not be surprised if by age 12 good old Ariel does not sport a gooed up Mohawk dyed a bright orange with hardly a mutter heard anywhere. As for his purported "Native American" standing...well read and be informed:
 
 
Geez...reading the Internet in depth must be hazardous to your mental health, Carch!


Ermm Home schooling is making so much more sense as time goes by.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 15:42
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

OK Carch, you've broken the rules and forgotten the old adage: Don't mess with Texas!
 
Your source is more than geographically challenged as caught in this passage:
 
The leaders of the Needville school district have strict rules about long hair on boys and don't see any reason to make an exception in this case. Needville's dress and grooming code, which does not allow hair past the collar or eyes for boys, is similar to other rural districts' in the Houston region.

Fort Bend County is hardly "rural" by any stretch of contemporary imagination...
 
Now as for the intricacies of the parents here (the father Kenney Arocha) desiring to make a "court case" on this matter, your usual double-speak on the "indigenes" is quite a stretch:
 
 
As matters stand within the various Texas ISDs, I would not be surprised if by age 12 good old Ariel does not sport a gooed up Mohawk dyed a bright orange with hardly a mutter heard anywhere. As for his purported "Native American" standing...well read and be informed:
 
 
Geez...reading the Internet in depth must be hazardous to your mental health, Carch!


Ermm Home schooling is making so much more sense as time goes by.
 
Yes, just look at poor Brandi Blackbear that was kicked out of her Oklahoma school because the Christian schoolboard thought she was a witch that put a spell on one of the teachers so he got ill.
 
By the way she was also of Native American descent.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 16:24
Oh good grief Carch! Just read the links that the doctor supplied. You might actually be surprised that my comment had nothing to do with your indigenous loving ideology (btw... 25% of me thanks you) and more to do with the increasingly sorry state of the US public school system.

No offense intended Carch, but sometimes you just need to come off of the high horse in order to see a different point of view.


Edited by Panther - 31 Aug 2010 at 16:25
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Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Just read the links that the doctor supplied. You might actually be surprised that my comment had nothing to do with your indigenous loving ideology (btw... 25% of me thanks you) and more to do with the increasingly sorry state of the US public school system.
 
Now, now Panther. The public school system in America is wonderful. After all, in what other system could you leave fully indoctrinated into an ideological/social set of dogmas, while remaining grammatically unable to express and defend them?
 
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Sorry Ako. Argumentum ad consquentiam, he messed with Texas.


Edited by Panther - 31 Aug 2010 at 19:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 19:50
Using clothes and adornment creatively as humans have done since prehistory is a great source aesthetic pleasure and therefore an entirely worthwhile pursuit. Furthermore humans always invest a great deal of thought and effort in their garb, so much that it becomes an inseperable part of their identity, which is why clothes and adornments are also interesting from a social and historical POV as they tell you a lot about the mentalities and sensibilities of the societies that produce them. Rather than read political or social history, you can just look at what people wore and you'll get a general idea of their values and how their society worked.
 
The problem with this thread is how the clothing of some rather arbitralily chosen primitive peoples are used to demonstrate the supposed inferiority of clothing styles favoured in Christian and Muslim civilizations. It's not entirely fair as fashion in the Christian and Muslim cultures has seen a lot more creativity than in those societies that have retained a largely unchanged style for centuries or even millennia. That's not to say those primitive styles are necessarily inferior aesthetically, but if you're looking for beautiful clothes and adornments you will find more to choose from in Europe and the Middle East (most likely because they had greater access to materials), the same is also true for East Asia but I'm not mentioning it here as it's irrelevant to my point.
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What kind of logic is that? Either you're drunk or you're just trying to goad Carch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 00:52
Doc, I liked Miss B's obiter dicta about how the Lipan Apache had fled the United States to avoid being put on reservations. When in fact, they were pushed out of their ancestral territories by the Comanche, who would have happily ended their existence altogether. And something in the family name suggests that there was gachupine or two up the family tree. (Further evidence that genes, as clothing and life styles, can cross cultures. A la Hondo Lane.)
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 09:48
Interestingly enough on the PBS series History Detectives there was an episode dedicated to researching a strange manumission document signed by then Lousiana governor Bernardo de Galvez in 1779 touching upon a certain woman "of color" named Ygnez (Agnes) and how the governor decreed her manumission against the will of her "owner".  The money required was put forth by a certain man named Platilla...it's the second item on the video:
 
http://video.pbs.org/video/1575582583/   (minute 19:40 and on...to minute 35)
 
Platilla, a Spaniard in the militia paid the 425 pesos needed but the document said little else. It was another document, Platilla's will that revealed the reason: she had become his common law wife and the mother of his children to whom he willed his estate, making clear to his heirs that Ignez was their mother! This digression is necessary because genealogy within the Americas is not as neat and smooth as Carch would have it and in the US South and Southwest racial and even tribal identities become more than problematic.
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 01 Sep 2010 at 09:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2010 at 23:53
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Oh good grief Carch! Just read the links that the doctor supplied. You might actually be surprised that my comment had nothing to do with your indigenous loving ideology (btw... 25% of me thanks you) and more to do with the increasingly sorry state of the US public school system.

No offense intended Carch, but sometimes you just need to come off of the high horse in order to see a different point of view.
 
Do not forget that the American school system has a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture. So the things are connected.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2010 at 00:02
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

The problem with this thread is how the clothing of some rather arbitralily chosen primitive peoples are used to demonstrate the supposed inferiority of clothing styles favoured in Christian and Muslim civilizations. It's not entirely fair as fashion in the Christian and Muslim cultures has seen a lot more creativity than in those societies that have retained a largely unchanged style for centuries or even millennia. That's not to say those primitive styles are necessarily inferior aesthetically, but if you're looking for beautiful clothes and adornments you will find more to choose from in Europe and the Middle East (most likely because they had greater access to materials), the same is also true for East Asia but I'm not mentioning it here as it's irrelevant to my point.
 
What is beautiful is of course up to the beholder, but one can hardly argue that this (warning, some nudity)
 
 
is more beautiful than this (warning, a lot of cloth)
 
 
(I know there are much more variety in Middle Eastern, or Amerindian clothing, but I could not resist Wink )


Edited by Carcharodon - 02 Sep 2010 at 00:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2010 at 00:17
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Oh good grief Carch! Just read the links that the doctor supplied. You might actually be surprised that my comment had nothing to do with your indigenous loving ideology (btw... 25% of me thanks you) and more to do with the increasingly sorry state of the US public school system.

No offense intended Carch, but sometimes you just need to come off of the high horse in order to see a different point of view.
 
Do not forget that the American school system has a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture. So the things are connected.
Carch, we have had this discussion; enough with the bashing of a school system you haven't even been in or around.  Go back to the thread about the US Educational system and reread it.  The statement that "the American school system has a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture" is flat incorrect.  In fact, the public school system in NJ has many discussions of Native Americans, some of these units are in a positive light others not so much, but that's history. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2010 at 01:21
[QUOTE=Carcharodon] What is beautiful is of course up to the beholder, but one can hardly argue that this (warning, some nudity)
 
 
is more beautiful than this (warning, a lot of cloth)
 
 
Quite so, but the burqa is intended to be unattractive, the whole purpose is to deter male attention by obscuring anything that could be deemed attractive. Of course this only makes sense if you believe God cares a great deal about dress codes.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2010 at 01:37
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Oh good grief Carch! Just read the links that the doctor supplied. You might actually be surprised that my comment had nothing to do with your indigenous loving ideology (btw... 25% of me thanks you) and more to do with the increasingly sorry state of the US public school system.

No offense intended Carch, but sometimes you just need to come off of the high horse in order to see a different point of view.
 
Do not forget that the American school system has a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture. So the things are connected.
Carch, we have had this discussion; enough with the bashing of a school system you haven't even been in or around.  Go back to the thread about the US Educational system and reread it.  The statement that "the American school system has a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture" is flat incorrect.  In fact, the public school system in NJ has many discussions of Native Americans, some of these units are in a positive light others not so much, but that's history. 
 
Believe it or not, I'm actually going to agree with Carcharodon, albeit in a qualified sense. I can only speak for the school system in Alaska, in which groups were more or less "recruited" by the government, though the system was not technically "run" by it. For decades the natives were forbidden to learn their language or dress in their native garb. It was all part of the "Americanization" of Alaska, and has only eased up in the past several decades. There is a generation or so still alive that remembers it. I can't speak for the other regions in the lower 48, but in Alaska, and in a historical and not a present sense, the statement that "the American school system ahs a long history of prejudice against Native Americans and their culture" is demonstrably correct. That said, there were certainly complicated factors at work in Alaska that wouldn't be present in other areas, so I'd be interested to know how things went elsewhere.
 
-Akolouthos
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