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Biggest mistakes in military history

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Poll Question: What is the biggest make in military history?
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3 [12.00%]
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15 [60.00%]
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    Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 16:07
Just curious on everyone's opinions, and post the battle you think if you choose others. ThanxThumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 18:24
Second world war France and their leaderships  over reliance on the Maginot line and expectation that the neutrality of the low countries would actually be respected long enough for the allies to effect a counter move to the German one in time. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2012 at 02:47
Out of all choices given Ill say the disaster of Salamais
"oh there just going to let my ships in GREAT!, I knew those Greeks were inferior"...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2012 at 04:39
Invading Belgium in 1914.
 
There was no legitimate reason whatsoever that justified going to war in 1914. There were no political tensions, no economic depression, no social unrest.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2012 at 06:51
I said the Battle of Red Cliffs because it costs the entire Navy, the entire northern army, and more than 180000 people. But My other 2 were pretty major.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2012 at 07:52
The failure of Germany to put more resources into air power in 1940. An overwhelming air force might have led to a successful invasion of Britain, or perhaps some sort of compromise peace with the British Empire, freeing up many more assets for the invasion of the Soviet Union. With that territory secured, and a long range air force, Germany would have been in a truly powerful position. Instead, they lost out in 1940, and then had their cities bombed to ruin.
 
Invading Belgium in 1914 was truly foolishness, but it was not out of keeping with the mindset of the times, in which war was seen as a component of the human experience, and not altogether a negative one. And there had been a buildup of friction between Germany and Britain, Belgium serving (unfortunately for them) as a minor footnote to a greater strategy.
 
The French may have depended on the Maginot Line to an extent, but many at the time likely could scarcely believe that after the carnage of the Great War, it was going to be re-inacted again only 20 years later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2012 at 04:25
That would be when it was decided by the US to support the UK during WW2. We had the wrong President, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. We were attacked by Japan, and not Germany. Hitler declaring war on the US was a non threat to us at the time. We should have let Germany occupy the UK as we rolled up the Japanese. With our logistics The Soviet Union did not need US boots in Europe to take care of Germany. With the UK occupied they would have welcomed Soviet troops with wine women and song. We owed the British nothing. The Soviet Union would have then been dealt with by us from the position of a nuclear armed super power, and a few million Japanese who had no love of The Soviet Union. The British enslaved near 1/3 of the third world and were in no position to take the high road. 
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My other choices were Long Horn because it costed the entire 7th cavalry, and Manchuria because it was although unavoidable, it was a rather dim-witted way of dividing troops and the fact of soldiers betraying Japan, although wise ( with the exception of the sepuku), was rather ruining the forces.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Birddog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2012 at 10:55
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

That would be when it was decided by the US to support the UK during WW2. We had the wrong President, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. We were attacked by Japan, and not Germany. Hitler declaring war on the US was a non threat to us at the time. We should have let Germany occupy the UK as we rolled up the Japanese. With our logistics The Soviet Union did not need US boots in Europe to take care of Germany. With the UK occupied they would have welcomed Soviet troops with wine women and song. We owed the British nothing. The Soviet Union would have then been dealt with by us from the position of a nuclear armed super power, and a few million Japanese who had no love of The Soviet Union. The British enslaved near 1/3 of the third world and were in no position to take the high road. 
 
I know that the Royal Navy was a bunch of cowards who were too frightened to leave Scapa Flow, and the RAF was a cardboard airforce in antqiue planes who couldn't fly in daylight hours in fear of being wiped out by the Luffwaffe, and the British Army a bunch of pussies who could not stand up to the Germans without Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians........But if the British weren't invaded by the Germans in 1940-41, they were unlikely to fall in 1942-45, even if American industry decided to cease all trading with the UK and condem another 46 million to Nazi rule without even sending them a bullet.
Without defeating the USSR, a German invasion of the UK was impossible. I can imagine the Red Army parked in Western Europe, and a Soviet invasion of the UK after the defeat of the Nazis. I hate to imagine the war that would have been fought between the nuclear armed super power and the Soviet Empire that streached from the Pacific to the Atlantic. I imagine most of Europe would be screwed as the American long range bombers dropped atomic bombs on London, Paris, Rome, Berlin etc as they pushed the Red Army back. Just imagine the aid the Europeans woud have needed after that war. But stuff them, the cowards should never have welcomed the Soviet with wine and cheese.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 4ZZZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2012 at 19:47
The 9/11 bombers failing to nuke all major US cities.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2012 at 00:15
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

That would be when it was decided by the US to support the UK during WW2. We had the wrong President, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. We were attacked by Japan, and not Germany. Hitler declaring war on the US was a non threat to us at the time. We should have let Germany occupy the UK as we rolled up the Japanese. With our logistics The Soviet Union did not need US boots in Europe to take care of Germany. With the UK occupied they would have welcomed Soviet troops with wine women and song. We owed the British nothing. The Soviet Union would have then been dealt with by us from the position of a nuclear armed super power, and a few million Japanese who had no love of The Soviet Union. The British enslaved near 1/3 of the third world and were in no position to take the high road. 

This is getting just plain silly. There's not a sentence there that makes any kind of sense.
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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

That would be when it was decided by the US to support the UK during WW2. We had the wrong President, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. We were attacked by Japan, and not Germany. Hitler declaring war on the US was a non threat to us at the time. We should have let Germany occupy the UK as we rolled up the Japanese. With our logistics The Soviet Union did not need US boots in Europe to take care of Germany. With the UK occupied they would have welcomed Soviet troops with wine women and song. We owed the British nothing. The Soviet Union would have then been dealt with by us from the position of a nuclear armed super power, and a few million Japanese who had no love of The Soviet Union. The British enslaved near 1/3 of the third world and were in no position to take the high road. 

This is getting just plain silly. There's not a sentence there that makes any kind of sense.
Thank you gcle!!!!!! @ Buckskins, what do you mean by the "wrong president"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2012 at 05:28
Originally posted by Birddog Birddog wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

That would be when it was decided by the US to support the UK during WW2. We had the wrong President, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. We were attacked by Japan, and not Germany. Hitler declaring war on the US was a non threat to us at the time. We should have let Germany occupy the UK as we rolled up the Japanese. With our logistics The Soviet Union did not need US boots in Europe to take care of Germany. With the UK occupied they would have welcomed Soviet troops with wine women and song. We owed the British nothing. The Soviet Union would have then been dealt with by us from the position of a nuclear armed super power, and a few million Japanese who had no love of The Soviet Union. The British enslaved near 1/3 of the third world and were in no position to take the high road. 
 
I know that the Royal Navy was a bunch of cowards who were too frightened to leave Scapa Flow, and the RAF was a cardboard airforce in antqiue planes who couldn't fly in daylight hours in fear of being wiped out by the Luffwaffe, and the British Army a bunch of pussies who could not stand up to the Germans without Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians........But if the British weren't invaded by the Germans in 1940-41, they were unlikely to fall in 1942-45, even if American industry decided to cease all trading with the UK and condem another 46 million to Nazi rule without even sending them a bullet.
Without defeating the USSR, a German invasion of the UK was impossible. I can imagine the Red Army parked in Western Europe, and a Soviet invasion of the UK after the defeat of the Nazis. I hate to imagine the war that would have been fought between the nuclear armed super power and the Soviet Empire that streached from the Pacific to the Atlantic. I imagine most of Europe would be screwed as the American long range bombers dropped atomic bombs on London, Paris, Rome, Berlin etc as they pushed the Red Army back. Just imagine the aid the Europeans woud have needed after that war. But stuff them, the cowards should never have welcomed the Soviet with wine and cheese.   

Now really Birddog, you can disagree with me without attribution of comments to me that I never posted. 

Cheers Matt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2012 at 05:30
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

That would be when it was decided by the US to support the UK during WW2. We had the wrong President, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. We were attacked by Japan, and not Germany. Hitler declaring war on the US was a non threat to us at the time. We should have let Germany occupy the UK as we rolled up the Japanese. With our logistics The Soviet Union did not need US boots in Europe to take care of Germany. With the UK occupied they would have welcomed Soviet troops with wine women and song. We owed the British nothing. The Soviet Union would have then been dealt with by us from the position of a nuclear armed super power, and a few million Japanese who had no love of The Soviet Union. The British enslaved near 1/3 of the third world and were in no position to take the high road. 

This is getting just plain silly. There's not a sentence there that makes any kind of sense.

Perhaps to you Graham, but not to me. I am after all entitled to my opinion just as you are sir.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2012 at 05:33
Originally posted by Lao Tse Lao Tse wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

That would be when it was decided by the US to support the UK during WW2. We had the wrong President, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. We were attacked by Japan, and not Germany. Hitler declaring war on the US was a non threat to us at the time. We should have let Germany occupy the UK as we rolled up the Japanese. With our logistics The Soviet Union did not need US boots in Europe to take care of Germany. With the UK occupied they would have welcomed Soviet troops with wine women and song. We owed the British nothing. The Soviet Union would have then been dealt with by us from the position of a nuclear armed super power, and a few million Japanese who had no love of The Soviet Union. The British enslaved near 1/3 of the third world and were in no position to take the high road. 

This is getting just plain silly. There's not a sentence there that makes any kind of sense.
Thank you gcle!!!!!! @ Buckskins, what do you mean by the "wrong president"?

As you concur with Graham's assessment, perhaps you should ask him.
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Originally posted by fusong fusong wrote:

Out of all choices given Ill say the disaster of Salamais
"oh there just going to let my ships in GREAT!, I knew those Greeks were inferior"...


No he knew quite well how the Greeks fared at sea. There were plans made by Xerxes and Spartan defectors to split the Persian navy in two, one would remain at Salamis, while the other would wrap around and land troops in the Peloponnese. The Helots were believed to revolt soon after, causing Sparta to fall. Without Sparta, it was believed the Persian ground troops could then take over mainland Greece with ease. This idea had its points, but it was not full proof.

Instead of risking it all in a do or die battle at Salamis, the Persians were now risking two die or die battles. The plan was heard, dismissed, and the go ahead was given to engage the Greeks in the Salamis Straits.





Edited by Darius of Parsa - 03 Jul 2012 at 06:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2012 at 07:49
If the US had stayed out of the war it probably wouldn't have been a nuclear power: it would have had no reason to develop atomic weapons. The British and Canadians and the anti-German scientists who would have then worked with them would have got there first. Even as it was, it was not a solely American effort. (Worth noting technologically that even with the US fighting, only the British and Germans developed jet planes in time for them to take part in the war.).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Birddog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2012 at 08:17
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Originally posted by Birddog Birddog wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

That would be when it was decided by the US to support the UK during WW2. We had the wrong President, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. We were attacked by Japan, and not Germany. Hitler declaring war on the US was a non threat to us at the time. We should have let Germany occupy the UK as we rolled up the Japanese. With our logistics The Soviet Union did not need US boots in Europe to take care of Germany. With the UK occupied they would have welcomed Soviet troops with wine women and song. We owed the British nothing. The Soviet Union would have then been dealt with by us from the position of a nuclear armed super power, and a few million Japanese who had no love of The Soviet Union. The British enslaved near 1/3 of the third world and were in no position to take the high road. 
 
I know that the Royal Navy was a bunch of cowards who were too frightened to leave Scapa Flow, and the RAF was a cardboard airforce in antqiue planes who couldn't fly in daylight hours in fear of being wiped out by the Luffwaffe, and the British Army a bunch of pussies who could not stand up to the Germans without Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians........But if the British weren't invaded by the Germans in 1940-41, they were unlikely to fall in 1942-45, even if American industry decided to cease all trading with the UK and condem another 46 million to Nazi rule without even sending them a bullet.
Without defeating the USSR, a German invasion of the UK was impossible. I can imagine the Red Army parked in Western Europe, and a Soviet invasion of the UK after the defeat of the Nazis. I hate to imagine the war that would have been fought between the nuclear armed super power and the Soviet Empire that streached from the Pacific to the Atlantic. I imagine most of Europe would be screwed as the American long range bombers dropped atomic bombs on London, Paris, Rome, Berlin etc as they pushed the Red Army back. Just imagine the aid the Europeans woud have needed after that war. But stuff them, the cowards should never have welcomed the Soviet with wine and cheese.   

Now really Birddog, you can disagree with me without attribution of comments to me that I never posted. 

Cheers Matt.
 
I agree that you did not make those statements about the British Navy, Air Force and Army.......on this thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2012 at 11:39
Wow, this topic has started a war all itself!! Let's just calm down before we start a World War 3!!! LOL
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I also added Nanking because Chiang Kai Shek pulled his forces out, leaving his rival's troops, which was a very small amount of troops. But Chiang also marched away the communications, the meesangers, and other vital sources of troops and information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2012 at 08:11
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

If the US had stayed out of the war it probably wouldn't have been a nuclear power: it would have had no reason to develop atomic weapons. The British and Canadians and the anti-German scientists who would have then worked with them would have got there first. Even as it was, it was not a solely American effort. (Worth noting technologically that even with the US fighting, only the British and Germans developed jet planes in time for them to take part in the war.).



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2012 at 08:18
Originally posted by Birddog Birddog wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Originally posted by Birddog Birddog wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

That would be when it was decided by the US to support the UK during WW2. We had the wrong President, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. We were attacked by Japan, and not Germany. Hitler declaring war on the US was a non threat to us at the time. We should have let Germany occupy the UK as we rolled up the Japanese. With our logistics The Soviet Union did not need US boots in Europe to take care of Germany. With the UK occupied they would have welcomed Soviet troops with wine women and song. We owed the British nothing. The Soviet Union would have then been dealt with by us from the position of a nuclear armed super power, and a few million Japanese who had no love of The Soviet Union. The British enslaved near 1/3 of the third world and were in no position to take the high road. 
 
I know that the Royal Navy was a bunch of cowards who were too frightened to leave Scapa Flow, and the RAF was a cardboard airforce in antqiue planes who couldn't fly in daylight hours in fear of being wiped out by the Luffwaffe, and the British Army a bunch of pussies who could not stand up to the Germans without Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians........But if the British weren't invaded by the Germans in 1940-41, they were unlikely to fall in 1942-45, even if American industry decided to cease all trading with the UK and condem another 46 million to Nazi rule without even sending them a bullet.
Without defeating the USSR, a German invasion of the UK was impossible. I can imagine the Red Army parked in Western Europe, and a Soviet invasion of the UK after the defeat of the Nazis. I hate to imagine the war that would have been fought between the nuclear armed super power and the Soviet Empire that streached from the Pacific to the Atlantic. I imagine most of Europe would be screwed as the American long range bombers dropped atomic bombs on London, Paris, Rome, Berlin etc as they pushed the Red Army back. Just imagine the aid the Europeans woud have needed after that war. But stuff them, the cowards should never have welcomed the Soviet with wine and cheese.   

Now really Birddog, you can disagree with me without attribution of comments to me that I never posted. 

Cheers Matt.
 
I agree that you did not make those statements about the British Navy, Air Force and Army.......on this thread.

"The Royal Navy were cowards." The thread please.

" the RAF was a cardboard airforce in antqiue planes" The thread please.

" and the British Army a bunch of pussies who could not stand up to the Germans without Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians" The thread please.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2012 at 08:25
Originally posted by Lao Tse Lao Tse wrote:

Wow, this topic has started a war all itself!! Let's just calm down before we start a World War 3!!! LOL

What a strange statement from someone that was stirring the pot pretty good.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2012 at 09:22
But I really did not uderstand what you said in that post. And what Graham said was what I was going to say but he beat me to it!!
 
Now can everyone please act civilized!!!??????????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2012 at 09:30
Originally posted by Lao Tse Lao Tse wrote:

But I really did not uderstand what you said in that post. And what Graham said was what I was going to say but he beat me to it!!
 
Now can everyone please act civilized!!!??????????

Would you say agreeing that my post was "SILLY" is civilized. If you don't want any crap, don't start any.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2012 at 09:47
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

That would be when it was decided by the US to support the UK during WW2. We had the wrong President, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. We were attacked by Japan, and not Germany. Hitler declaring war on the US was a non threat to us at the time. We should have let Germany occupy the UK as we rolled up the Japanese. With our logistics The Soviet Union did not need US boots in Europe to take care of Germany. With the UK occupied they would have welcomed Soviet troops with wine women and song. We owed the British nothing. The Soviet Union would have then been dealt with by us from the position of a nuclear armed super power, and a few million Japanese who had no love of The Soviet Union. The British enslaved near 1/3 of the third world and were in no position to take the high road. 
 
The reason why the US attacked Germany was not only because the US allied with Britain, but Deutschland had allied with Nippon-koku (Japan) before the attacks in 1936, along with Italia and many others, including Manchukuo as a puppet state under Japanese Rule. The US allied with Australia, the UK, Russia, Mongolia (as a puppet state), Kuomingtang Zhengong, and many others. And I still do not understand what you mean by the wrong President. FDR helped end the war with a success to his front, he just couldn't live to see the end of the Pacific Theatre. And although the threat of Der Fuehrer declaring war on the US was not a threat at that time, the war could have very well escoladed beyond proportions and beyond an ending and beyond any form of control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2012 at 10:00
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Originally posted by Lao Tse Lao Tse wrote:

But I really did not uderstand what you said in that post. And what Graham said was what I was going to say but he beat me to it!!
 
Now can everyone please act civilized!!!??????????

Would you say agreeing that my post was "SILLY" is civilized. If you don't want any crap, don't start any.
 
I wouldn't say that your post at that time was "silly", but how this is beginning a virtual war itself is. And I didn't start any crap, technically you did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Birddog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2012 at 10:43
Dear Buckskins. I do admit you have not used those words, but I am used to your pattern of discribion of the British armed forces during world war two, for example.

Navy. 

I doubt the RN could get out of Scapa Flow for the used tea leaves blocking their passage, and they were ready to bolt for Canada anyway. 3/4/2012 SeaLion thread.

Airforce

They were no match for the Luftwaffe. The RAF showed up during the hours of daylight towards the end of the war when the USAAF had all but neutralized the Luftwaffe.
 29/6/2012 Bomber Command Thread

Army

The Australians and New Zealanders were the very best you had. There were not enough of them. You must be aware that Australians, Canadians, then the Americans, were aghast at how puny the average Brit soldier was. I think between wars you must have been harvesting veggies with a screwdriver. On his best day an Englishman was no match for the regular Wehrmacht, let alone German paras. 3/4/2012 SeaLion Thread again.

And if I defended any ability at all in the British armed services I know these arguments would come forward again. Now I am going off to start a new thread you might enjoy.
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Buckskins View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2012 at 03:07
Originally posted by Birddog Birddog wrote:

Dear Buckskins. I do admit you have not used those words, but I am used to your pattern of discribion of the British armed forces during world war two, for example.

Navy. 

I doubt the RN could get out of Scapa Flow for the used tea leaves blocking their passage, and they were ready to bolt for Canada anyway. 3/4/2012 SeaLion thread.

Airforce

They were no match for the Luftwaffe. The RAF showed up during the hours of daylight towards the end of the war when the USAAF had all but neutralized the Luftwaffe.
 29/6/2012 Bomber Command Thread

Army

The Australians and New Zealanders were the very best you had. There were not enough of them. You must be aware that Australians, Canadians, then the Americans, were aghast at how puny the average Brit soldier was. I think between wars you must have been harvesting veggies with a screwdriver. On his best day an Englishman was no match for the regular Wehrmacht, let alone German paras. 3/4/2012 SeaLion Thread again.

And if I defended any ability at all in the British armed services I know these arguments would come forward again. Now I am going off to start a new thread you might enjoy.


 
 "Dear Buckskins. I do admit you have not used those words"

  No harm done my friend.

May you live as long as you want to,
and may you want to as long as you live.
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gcle2003 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2012 at 23:45
Do you know the difference between direct and indirect speech? Look it up.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

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