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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2016 at 03:47
Boris Johnson has withdrawn from the contest to be Englands next Prime Minister, after his leading supporter withdrew his support, and announced his own candidacy.

And all of those people shouting for the UK to withdraw from the EU quickly are fighting an uphill battle. The UK has not yet implemented the Section 50 requirements of the EU Act, notifying the Union of it's intention to withdraw. Once it has submitted it's notification, it has two years in which to wind up it's membership. Now some people are wondering if the UK will in fact implement the Section 50, or simply ignore the referendum result and remain in the Union.

But there is another option being touted, that is that the UK reaches a new agreement with the Union whereby some of the current agreements are rescinded and some are retained. Norway is a case at hand. "
(from Wiki)
Quote "Although the Kingdom of Norway is not a member state of the European Union (EU), it is closely associated with the Union through its membership in the European Economic Area (EEA), in the context of being a European Free Trade Association (EFTA) member."


I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 4ZZZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2016 at 05:56
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


Boris Johnson has withdrawn from the contest to be Englands next Prime Minister, after his leading supporter withdrew his support, and announced his own candidacy.

And all of those people shouting for the UK to withdraw from the EU quickly are fighting an uphill battle. The UK has not yet implemented the Section 50 requirements of the EU Act, notifying the Union of it's intention to withdraw. Once it has submitted it's notification, it has two years in which to wind up it's membership. Now some people are wondering if the UK will in fact implement the Section 50, or simply ignore the referendum result and remain in the Union.

But there is another option being touted, that is that the UK reaches a new agreement with the Union whereby some of the current agreements are rescinded and some are retained. Norway is a case at hand. "
<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">(from Wiki)</span>
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Quote "Although the Kingdom of </span><b style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 19.2px;">Norway<span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 19.2px;"> is not a member state of the </span><b style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 19.2px;">European Union<span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 19.2px;"> (</span><b style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 19.2px;">EU<span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 19.2px;">), it is closely associated with the Union through its membership in the European Economic Area (EEA), in the context of being a European Free Trade Association (EFTA) member."
</span>
<span style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 19.2px;">
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Norwegian option is the best IMO but may not happen. Read this.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/eb8dbe8c-3d0c-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a.html#axzz4D884S99Z
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 04:31
One of the most offensive arguments put forward by the remain camp is that the ignorant masses should not be allowed to decide a nations future.  In many ways it is the same argument being made by the anti Trump forces.  It is offensive because it is so self serving.  If the ignorant masses should not be allowed to vote then surely the bureaucratic masses should be eliminated from voting due to conflict of interest.  If you work for the EU bureaucracy the conflict of interest is obvious but I don't think it stops there.  There are millions of young people in Britain with degrees that are only suited for government jobs or jobs made necessary by excessive regulation.  Add to those millions the many more educated "elites" who are supported by government research grants or teaching positions.  I'm not saying that research grants or public education is a bad thing but how many gender studies, minority studies or for that matter theoretical physics and philosophy majors should the public tax rolls really need to fund?  

There is also a good deal of hypocrisy at work here because most of the collectivist progressives that want the vote rescinded have never objected to welfare recipients voting themselves more government handouts.  The elitist remain supporters seem to only object to democracy when the vote doesn't go their way.  Those calling for educational requirements for voter registration could find that it hurts there causes as much as it does the policies of those they label as racist, right wing, ignoramuses.  How many people on government subsidies do you suppose would take a cut in benefits to fund gender studies, english majors, philosophers, or theoretical physicists?  

The exit vote is not just about immigration, or sovereignty it is also about a bureaucratic and educated class that no longer adds value to society.  The multitude of government workers, researchers, educators and career politician have become the new parasitic bourgeoisie in socialist or semi socialist societies.  While this middle class bourgeoisie endlessly decry the 1 percenters the burden of providing the necessities for life seems to be falling on a smaller and smaller percentage of the population for whom the parasitic classes seem to have nothing but contempt.  It is little wonder that they are afraid that the working poor are drifting toward revolt.     





    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 05:16
I agree wolfhnd.

What's really bemusing are the calls to take away voting privileges from older adults, who voted in the main to leave the EU. Those in the 18-24 age bracket are among the most vociferous advocates for this change, and are mainly Remain voters. And yet in an election where more than 70% of Britons turned out to vote, their voter participation numbers were only about 36%. It's pretty laughable.

Besides the lethargy of the Remain voters, we also really have to thank mother nature for this outcome. Voting day occurred under very inclement weather. Which was good for the Leave camp made up of well informed and highly motived supporters who would brave the conditions out of their own genuine conviction. But bad for the Remain camp, who relied more heavily on the 'trendiness' of their cause and so were less able to rely on their supporters being willing to endure the unpleasant conditions in support of the cause. Fair-weather friends indeed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 4ZZZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 07:23
I have just rang a bloke I have been mates with for year when I lived in the UK for a few years in the 70's. He is now a small business owner of a gardening centre on the south coast of the UK, fella in in mid fifties. Voted remain. A fella that left school a year before the end of high school and with that made his way in the world. Now comfortable because of a good business sense but always a hard worker and generous to the staff he has employed over the years. Most stay a long time with him. He and I talk a bit via Skype as he knows I work for an industry association here is Australia. I said that he was now apparently an Elite. His raucous laughter was infectious.   

The term elite is now so over used as some insult to those that you do not agree with as to be now a parody. The fact that Rupert Murdoch pushed the Brexit vote via his media empire and that his acolytes are now using Elite as an insult really a case of the pot calling the kettle black. You do not get more elite that the Brexit backers such as him, the Barclay Brothers and various other very wealthy types. Not bothering looking up but one backer was 200 million pound in worth?    

The entire debacle was caused by the pursuit of political leadership by the governing party in the UK. Some of these are as establishment as it gets and are therefore elites. As to Rupert Murdoch he once told Anthony Hilton at the Evening Standard as to why he was anti-EU. "'That's easy,' Murdoch replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'" I would suggest he is in the top echelon of movers and shakers in the English speaking world. It does not get much more elite than that if anyone wants to talk in that term.



Edited by 4ZZZ - 02 Jul 2016 at 07:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 4ZZZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 07:29
The debate now is not the name calling anyway. The 2 posts above me are now discussing what us Australians call a furphy.

The issue now is the political leadership outcome in the governing party and then once settled how the governing party get their nation out of a mess of their own making. Read the item I posted and get back to me as what you think is the best way forward. Happy to discuss on this here History Forum that I read once prided itself on its sober discourse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2016 at 14:14
Ignore the rhetoric of elitism and focus on the statistics and you can conclude that the demographics of the remain voters suggests that they voted for their short-term self interest. This in general is not the message they project. If you claim moral and intellectually superiority then examining your self interest relative to the contribution you make to society seems appropriate.

I have no doubt that in fact the average IQ of remain voters may be higher than the exit voters. What I question is if intellectual superiority translates into moral or political superiority. In many cases intellectual superiority simply translates into greater skill at conformation bias.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 10:25
IMHO, it was always a mistake to sign away control of your own borders, regardless of trade or travel implications. There was always going to be an influx of people from the poorer European countries, and international criminal activity increase a likely scenario.

I would think it possible that the English government will try and stitch up an agreement with regards to trade while enforcing tighter border controls.

But, time will tell.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 4ZZZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 2016 at 23:48
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

IMHO, it was always a mistake to sign away control of your own borders, regardless of trade or travel implications. There was always going to be an influx of people from the poorer European countries, and international criminal activity increase a likely scenario.

I would think it possible that the English government will try and stitch up an agreement with regards to trade while enforcing tighter border controls.

But, time will tell.




So you think that we Australians have control of out borders? I know a PM once said "we will decide..." etc etc but they played lip service to their political opposition. We than proceeded to have the largest and leaky immigration program based on a bureaucratic monster that a so called "Brussels bureaucratic" would be proud of.

Keep talking about the same thing though. The issue is no longer what was the cause etc. I posted in my previous reply to you an item in the Financial Times that discusses more sober "where to now" scenarios. Have you an opinion?

Edited by 4ZZZ - 03 Jul 2016 at 23:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 01:41
Only a narcissistic degenerate like Marx could come up with a system so hostile to merit and so widely acclaimed.  The influence of Marxist philosophy is now so deeply rooted in Western intellectual culture most people don't even recognize it.  Being intelligent and "well" educated has become almost equivalent to being petty nobility in relation to earlier times.  An education is now to an intelligent person what make up is to a pretty face. 

Marx would be right at home in a world in which what you know is rewarded more often than what you do.  Living a life of lechery, sponging off of and a abusing family was Marx's greatest talent.  Many of our institutions now reflect this narcissistic world view of a "gifting economy".  Western governments are now so burdened with overpaid bureaucrats that they are approaching grid lock.  Marx's is undoubtedly laughing in his grave.      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 03:01
4ZZZ:-
Quote I posted in my previous reply to you an item in the Financial Times that discusses more sober "where to now" scenarios. Have you an opinion? 

The site reqires a subscription before the artical can be opened, so, no I haven't read it.

I agree that the UK could go for a Norwegian type agreement.

And, no, I don't think Australias borders are secure. The vast areas of remote and uninhabited coastline make it virtually impossible for that to happen.

But we're still not in the position that the UK is in, with basically no controls on it's borders, thanks to the EU agreement.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 08:20
Sometimes it takes a graph to help put things back in perspective:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 4ZZZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 08:38
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


4ZZZ:-
Quote <span style="line-height: 16.8px; : rgb231, 228, 216;">I posted in my previous reply to you an item in the Financial Times that discusses more sober "where to now" scenarios. Have you an opinion?</span><span style="line-height: 16.8px; : rgb231, 228, 216;"> 
</span>
<span style="font-size: 10px; : rgb231, 228, 216;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">The site reqires a subscription before the artical can be opened, so, no I haven't read it.</span>
<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">I agree that the UK could go for a Norwegian type agreement.</span>
<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">And, no, I don't think Australias borders are secure. The vast areas of remote and uninhabited coastline make it virtually impossible for that to happen.</span>
<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">But we're still not in the position that the UK is in, with basically no controls on it's borders, thanks to the EU agreement.</span>
<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">
</span>


That opens for me and I am not a subscriber.

The Norwegian option calls for full and free movement of people. The Norwegian PM made this point leading up to the referendum.

As to secure borders that is not my point in this discussion, it I the migration rules in place of Australia that was my point. That is an entirely different issue.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 4ZZZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 09:00
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


Sometimes it takes a graph to help put things back in perspective:





Indeed. The fall in the pound has been fruitful for some. In fact I would suggest that a weak sterling is something that the UK will have to live with. It is great for exporters at this time considering how many export to the EU itself. It does have its problems though. Importers of raw goods will have to adjust. Consumer goods imported in will rise. I will let you consider the implications of inflation. Nice graphic but considering some dismissed many industry "graphs" as to the long term losses it is a bit of a furphy.


Also please do realise that nothing has happened yet and nor will it until Article 50 is finally triggered. There is a lot in play including the Conservatives Party leadership bid, the legal implications are enormous so I am told. Even some internally in the party are of the opinion that the new PM may not be allowed to trigger Article 50 as it may be the right of Parliament to make that call. That I am told is causing consternation.

I would also tell you that is a little bit of consternation from a recent by-election result from the Leatherhead district of Mole Valley a week later and the Lib Dems have won in a landslide in a very low turnout.

All of these events are of interest. Sadly It looks like we may not have a particularly stimulating discussion on this. Comment lacking any nuance on a subject that is of major importance and I read a graph and then read back further a get something about it all being a Marxist plot. I reckon it is time I moved on left you all to the level of discussion that seems to be standard for this here History site. Have fun.          
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 11:27
4ZZZ:-
Quote  I reckon it is time I moved on left you all to the level of discussion that seems to be standard for this here History site. Have fun.

There are many highly educated and knowledgeable members of this forum.

If you don't agree with someone, that's OK, but there's no need to be rude and insulting. We're all entitled to our views.


I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2016 at 16:50
Quote With all due respect to the British voters they got it wrong. They were never explained the consequences of this exit, they were never explained the benefits from being in a free trade association and with that they did vote on race and crap lies about money into the NHS. The Brexit media can deny that all they like but the truth is they promoted race constantly. I watched countless complaints on TV by working class people about "Poles selling them sweeties" and plenty more.

I hear this sort of rationale quite a lot here in England. It isn't entirely true. Some may have been fooled, but for many, it was frustration with coping with immigrations and the social competition it engenders, plus a patriotic desire to see Britain ruling itself and not being gradually sucked into some future European superstate. Personally, it was because of the latter - I really have never liked the EU at all.

Most of those who want second referendums are those annoyed who cannot accept the first result. But the referendum was democratically achieved - you cannot ignore a result and demand another vote until you get the result you want.

Secondly, too many people are milling around flapping their arms shouting "Crisis!". Really? But until Article 50 is triggered nothing changes. And even then the negotiation process has two years to complete. The issue is that too many politicians don't do anything except moan at everyone else. It's as if being in Europe has sapped some of our strength at the top, though in fairness, I doubt most of those individuals were particularly able politicians anyway.

The UK has chosen by democratic vote and that decision must be observed. All parties knew that was a possible outcome and yet they are so reluctant to actually do anything. For some, it's the same inaction that allows extremism in the midst of democratic society. For others, it's vested interest, and I do note how quick the assassins were in cutting each other down at the first excuse. Even now the likes of Tony Blair are still preaching at us to avoid the rush for independence. One law firm says the Referendum is not binding.

Truth is, many of our politicians have never had to deal with difficult circumstances and now we're seeing who can hack it and who can't. It's been quite a lesson for some.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 02:15
@caldrail:-

Well said. That three million people are said to have now signed a petition to have a second vote indicates to me that perhaps they didn't think the issue through properly, with all of it's pro's and cons.

I see a potential problem of uncertainty arising in the business world if the Section 50 is not signed soon. 

But, the rest of the world gets to just hurry up and wait, and try to minimise the effects that the whole issue has on us.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 02:57
The petition to change the vote is pretty funny. It's so obviously open to fraud. Over 50,000 signatures originated from Vatican City, despite the fact that this micro-state only has a population of around 840 persons. Large numbers of signatures also originated from North Korea, despite the fact that internet access in this country is heavily restricted and participation in foreign politics is unlikely to be permitted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 07:41
I didn't know that. So much for on-line petitions.  Dead
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 13:36
Quote Brexit is a rejection of the cult of regressive leftism. It is a rejection of failed socialist policies that have in increased the number of UK people in poverty over the last decade.

Yes it is a rejection of the shallow intellectualism and incompetence of the political class and bureaucracy. The question is if the religion of Marxist equality really isn't the real ignorance.

Have you ever been to Britain? I certainly don't recognise it from your description of our politics. Quite where Marxism comes into it I don't know, adherents of that sort of politics are very few in Blighty and none reach the higher echelons of government. Their party simply wouldn't be voted in.

Brexit was a simple choice made available to the British public. To categorise it under one label is really a lack of understanding that so many different points of view were involved. I thought I'd heard a lot of rubbish talked about Brexit before it happened, now I'm finding the post-vote commentary is even more inflated with some strange conceptions of why it happened.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 19:22
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

 
____________________
SEGMENT DELETED due to condescending and defamatory remarks for half of britains population.

~ North
____________________



I haven't been here for some 3-5 years but I am glad to realise that some people do not change. Stability is what we always wanted Tongue


Edited by Anton - 05 Jul 2016 at 19:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 23:47
America is overall a friend to Britain, friends should offer advice, but when it is not taken, should offer to help, and if that is not taken, they should stay out of the way.  England, Scotland, Wales, N Ireland have to figure this out for themselves, along with, to a lesser extent, the rest of Europe.  Everybody else is kind of like gawkers at train wreck, slowing down a causing and traffic jam.  imho.  I mean, everybody wants to "help," but what that means and they can do, is quite uncertain.  No?  It seems to be that the best one could do, is business as "normal."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2016 at 23:59
Remember when "Change" was something we could believe in, until now that we can't.

Anyways... A nice round up of cry babies who lost the vote and didn't get what they wanted can be found here on Samizdata

Sampling:

http://www.samizdata.net/2016/07/those-poor-fools-bringing-their-pens-into-the-polling-booth/



http://www.samizdata.net/2016/07/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-717/
Quote

This outpouring of anti-democratic sentiment, this unquestioned faith in the wisdom of the elite over the will of the people, did not begin with the Brexit vote. Through the rise of evidence-based policy and quangos, experts have crept into more and more areas of policymaking. And the sentiment that the masses are a bit thick, brainwashed by the media and stirred up by demagogues, has long greeted every General Election result that doesn’t go the metropolitan elite’s way.

http://www.samizdata.net/2016/07/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-716/


Quote


During the course of this splendid campaign, every Ponce in Christendom seems to have stuck his patrician nose about the parapet, sniffed the Great Unwashed and called on the waddling geese of Strasbourg to stand between them and us ruffians. Luvvies and musicians (acting and music being two former escape routes for we chavs now colonised by public school spawn) of course, identity politics social justice warriors (writing the most currently disadvantaged people around – white working class males – out of history, one gripe at a time) naturally. And Eddie Izzard! There have never been a greater number of people I’ve loathed who have been made to cry all at once.

Quote

But the Brexit fallout has brought this long unspoken prejudice out of the bistros and into the streets. The idea that the people are effectively incapable of taking part in politics, that you need a PhD in European law to have an opinion on EU membership, is now being shouted from the rooftops and scrawled on placards. Left-wing Remain types, so long the sort who would pretend to speak on behalf of the little people, are now openly calling for elite rule.



http://www.samizdata.net/2016/07/is-brexit-unlawful-unless-parliament-approves-trigger-warning/


Edited by Panther - 06 Jul 2016 at 00:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 00:27
Originally posted by wolfhnd wolfhnd wrote:

One of the most offensive arguments put forward by the remain camp is that the ignorant masses should not be allowed to decide a nations future.  In many ways it is the same argument being made by the anti Trump forces.  It is offensive because it is so self serving.  If the ignorant masses should not be allowed to vote then surely the bureaucratic masses should be eliminated from voting due to conflict of interest.  If you work for the EU bureaucracy the conflict of interest is obvious but I don't think it stops there.  There are millions of young people in Britain with degrees that are only suited for government jobs or jobs made necessary by excessive regulation.  Add to those millions the many more educated "elites" who are supported by government research grants or teaching positions.  I'm not saying that research grants or public education is a bad thing but how many gender studies, minority studies or for that matter theoretical physics and philosophy majors should the public tax rolls really need to fund?

Your question on voting rights is a difficult one, and not amenable to easy answers. I don't think anyone is going to suggest going back to limited access to the vote, in any sort of permutation. However, it is also clear that democracy can, and has in recent years at least, become a sham, if it does not enjoy an educated and engaged electorate. There are many examples of citizens voting against their own interests, blithely marking a ballot that will do not what they expect, but often quite the opposite. The most obvious example today is the Trump campaign, where a crude salesman spews falsehoods left and right, but they are not picked up on by either an informed electorate, nor a diligent media. 

So where to draw a limit? Or should there be any limit? What if there was a referendum to halt inoculations against communicable diseases, as many out in the population got the notion that they were actually causing autism, or other such maladies? If the referendum carried, should medical practice then be altered?

If Trump were elected and went through with some of his more skewed notions, such as killing the families of terrorists, or booting the economy towards another 1929 style depression, should democracy hold above all, or should the voters be rebuffed by some "elites" who thought they knew better? Such "elites" in the state department told the Bush administration they were going to have a crisis in Iraq with the way they were going, but JW was the favorite of the electors.

I don't have any answers to this, but will just day that democracy, in some instances, is simply not enough. 

Originally posted by wolfhnd wolfhnd wrote:

There is also a good deal of hypocrisy at work here because most of the collectivist progressives that want the vote rescinded have never objected to welfare recipients voting themselves more government handouts.  The elitist remain supporters seem to only object to democracy when the vote doesn't go their way.  Those calling for educational requirements for voter registration could find that it hurts there causes as much as it does the policies of those they label as racist, right wing, ignoramuses.  How many people on government subsidies do you suppose would take a cut in benefits to fund gender studies, english majors, philosophers, or theoretical physicists?  

The exit vote is not just about immigration, or sovereignty it is also about a bureaucratic and educated class that no longer adds value to society.  The multitude of government workers, researchers, educators and career politician have become the new parasitic bourgeoisie in socialist or semi socialist societies.  While this middle class bourgeoisie endlessly decry the 1 percenters the burden of providing the necessities for life seems to be falling on a smaller and smaller percentage of the population for whom the parasitic classes seem to have nothing but contempt.  It is little wonder that they are afraid that the working poor are drifting toward revolt.     
    

As for your angst about researchers, educators, etc, I'd say they are exactly the type of people that are actually adding value to society, and given the way political sentiment has gone in recent years, we need more of them, not less.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 00:55
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Remember when "Change" was something we could believe in, until now that we can't.

Anyways... A nice round up of cry babies who lost the vote and didn't get what they wanted can be found here on Samizdata

Sampling:

http://www.samizdata.net/2016/07/those-poor-fools-bringing-their-pens-into-the-polling-booth/



http://www.samizdata.net/2016/07/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-717/
Quote

This outpouring of anti-democratic sentiment, this unquestioned faith in the wisdom of the elite over the will of the people, did not begin with the Brexit vote. Through the rise of evidence-based policy and quangos, experts have crept into more and more areas of policymaking. And the sentiment that the masses are a bit thick, brainwashed by the media and stirred up by demagogues, has long greeted every General Election result that doesn’t go the metropolitan elite’s way.

http://www.samizdata.net/2016/07/samizdata-quote-of-the-day-716/


Quote


During the course of this splendid campaign, every Ponce in Christendom seems to have stuck his patrician nose about the parapet, sniffed the Great Unwashed and called on the waddling geese of Strasbourg to stand between them and us ruffians. Luvvies and musicians (acting and music being two former escape routes for we chavs now colonised by public school spawn) of course, identity politics social justice warriors (writing the most currently disadvantaged people around – white working class males – out of history, one gripe at a time) naturally. And Eddie Izzard! There have never been a greater number of people I’ve loathed who have been made to cry all at once.

Quote

But the Brexit fallout has brought this long unspoken prejudice out of the bistros and into the streets. The idea that the people are effectively incapable of taking part in politics, that you need a PhD in European law to have an opinion on EU membership, is now being shouted from the rooftops and scrawled on placards. Left-wing Remain types, so long the sort who would pretend to speak on behalf of the little people, are now openly calling for elite rule.



http://www.samizdata.net/2016/07/is-brexit-unlawful-unless-parliament-approves-trigger-warning/

It is quite common to set various higher standards in votes such as these that have serious and wide ranging potential. Two thirds, 60%, a minimum turnout, etc. Certainly, a majority of 1.9% is no clear mandate for change. Cameron made a foolish gamble in wagering so much on such a simple event.

My opinion is that Britain will be more or less OK in the long run, probably after a long and costly renegotiation of treaties and trade agreements. The average person will probably be a bit poorer, as a lower pound makes imports more expensive, and a potentially more expensive access to the EU makes exports less lucrative. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 02:11
Nice sources there, Panther.

My favourite bit of ridiculous media scaremongering to come out of this is this article:


Quote Students across the country claim they are so upset with the result of the Brexit vote that they are at risk of failing their exams. 

In light of last week’s referendum result, thousands of young people took to social media to voice their shock and fears regarding a future outside of the European Union.

“I've felt so down all day because of this, and just have this constant sick feeling in my stomach,” one person posted in online forum The Student Room.


Quote I wonder if I can get special consideration for my #FurtherMathsand #Physics exams today because I was stressed about Brexit???


Quote I only have 2 exams left now but it's pointless revising I have no future now anyway #brexit

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 02:19
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Nice sources there, Panther.

My favourite bit of ridiculous media scaremongering to come out of this is this article:


Quote Students across the country claim they are so upset with the result of the Brexit vote that they are at risk of failing their exams. 

In light of last week’s referendum result, thousands of young people took to social media to voice their shock and fears regarding a future outside of the European Union.

“I've felt so down all day because of this, and just have this constant sick feeling in my stomach,” one person posted in online forum The Student Room.


Quote I wonder if I can get special consideration for my #FurtherMathsand #Physics exams today because I was stressed about Brexit???


Quote I only have 2 exams left now but it's pointless revising I have no future now anyway #brexit



Coming soon to a history chapter near you; "The Rise of Special Western Snow-Flakes".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 09:12
 look like those chaps:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/manchester-tram-racist-attack-abuse-video-footage-get-back-to-africa-teenage-boys-abuse-suspects-a7107466.html

seem to be very close by mentality to some brexit supporters in this forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 15:53
Quote [America is overall a friend to Britain, friends should offer advice, but when it is not taken, should offer to help, and if that is not taken, they should stay out of the way. England, Scotland, Wales, N Ireland have to figure this out for themselves, along with, to a lesser extent, the rest of Europe. Everybody else is kind of like gawkers at train wreck, slowing down a causing and traffic jam

This is exactly the sort of sentiment that really annoys me and I hear it quite a lot (nothing personal).

Britain has not changed. It will not change until Article 50 is triggered and even then events will not be immediate. Okay, the financial markets got all panicky - hey, nothing new there, and Britain's been through those hassles before, bearing in mind that current Sterling values are being compared to a previous situation we encountered within Europe.

I agree there are some leadership issues in British politics, but in what way is all of this a 'train wreck'? The situation is being blown out of all proportion by people who want to see a crisis where none actually exists. My life is unaffected. Brexit has made not the slightest impact on me at all, whatsoever. Nor for most people.

Now that doesn't mean we couldn't blow it spectacularly later on, but then Britain has made mistakes before and will again - what nation doesn't? For now, we have to decide who runs the country while these changes occur, sort out how the changes are to take place, and sort out the details of the legal minefield we could carelessly blunder into.

Britain is doing okay. Lots of countries aren't.

Edited by caldrail - 06 Jul 2016 at 15:53
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2016 at 16:59
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Sometimes it takes a graph to help put things back in perspective:



It is not unusual for stock markets to shoot up on the assumption that right wing forces are ascendant, and will favor the rentier class in some material way. It is also not unusual for them to crash back down again, when such hopes fall short of expectation. 

Imagine a pack of lemmings running across the tundra. They go this way, and then that way, and then back again, with unfocused urgency, every once in a while falling into a chasm or river. That will give you an idea of the significance of market sentiment. 
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