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BREXIT?

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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 22:51
If you don't get what you want, then whine.  The way I see it, the powers that be assumed what the vote would be, and didn't work the problem ahead of time.  Is that accurate?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 23:11
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

If you don't get what you want, then whine.  The way I see it, the powers that be assumed what the vote would be, and didn't work the problem ahead of time.  Is that accurate?

Certainly seems to be the case.

Now some are calling for a second referendum. If that were to be held it's likely that "The Remainers" would win. The whole thing was never thought out very well.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 03:01
I don't know it might even be worth it in the long run to take a short term loss, instead of being saddled to the rest of Europe, of course Britain didn't adopt the Euro, so I can't see how that can pull them down.

I am not sure why they want a divorce, then again, I am not sure why they wanted to be together in the first place.

I knew a guy who when he got divorces (3?), he just left, let her keep the house and everything.  I am sure that is what Europe has in mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 12:43
Britain chose by a small majority to leave because of concerns over worker immigration and competition for employment, national determination and identity, and a lack of commonality with European spirit. There were other minor reasons too. Personally I voted to leave because I never liked the European Union. The Common Market was a good idea but a new European power? However carefully they build it sooner or later it will end in tears. Already some member states are struggling financially and across Europe right wing groups are rising in significance.
 
Europe does not want Britain to leave. We're one of the major contributors to their budget and maintain an important financial sector. That's why they kept on fudging and stretching out the negotiation, though in fariness, Mrs May is not the worlds greatest diplomat either.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 00:26
Caldrail

So is another referendum the way to go?

What are the financial considerations in leaving the EU?

It seems to me that this issue is as important to the UK as a peoples right to self determination, could it be that the people who initially voted for BREXIT were correct?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 02:04
I tend to think of Wilson's promotion at the Versailles conference of people's self-determination was a bit of the opening of the Pandora's box.  All these defuse groups now had to promote their "national" identity, often causing havoc for the Empires in which they were imbedded.  Is, for example, India better off after independence, or was it better off under British rule?   I think that the best one can argue, is that India is going sideways in different way than it was going sideways before.  How about those Indian farmers who are killing themselves these days, how has self-determination treated him.

So, if Britain has a right to self-determination, what about the Basques, or the Castellans?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 05:25
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I tend to think of Wilson's promotion at the Versailles conference of people's self-determination was a bit of the opening of the Pandora's box.  All these defuse groups now had to promote their "national" identity, often causing havoc for the Empires in which they were imbedded.  Is, for example, India better off after independence, or was it better off under British rule?   I think that the best one can argue, is that India is going sideways in different way than it was going sideways before.  How about those Indian farmers who are killing themselves these days, how has self-determination treated him.

So, if Britain has a right to self-determination, what about the Basques, or the Castellans?

Being very pro-Irish unification, I agree with you. People have a right to self determination.

If the UK does BREXIT or if it doesn't, the soft border between Northern Ireland and the Republic should remain soft or risk upsetting the Good Friday Agreement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2019 at 11:29
The only reason for holding a second referendum regardless of what some politicians are spouting is merely to allow a referendum decision to be reversed and Brexit cancelled in favour of remaining.
One would have to say India is better off now. Whether it would have improved under colonial rule is another matter, but India is a regional superpower now and growing economically despite the poverty that plagues the country.
 
The soft border is already protected under rules formulated for dealing with a No Deal exit. It states that no customs checks will take place on border crossings. The only fly in the ointment over this was the Irish Backstop but May has managed to get what politicians were asking for and the EU agreed a legal termination clause.
 
Self determination is all very well - we still have calls for that in the UK, with Scottish, Welsh, Irish, and Cornish groups working for independence (Yep - Cornwall has its own movement. Remember that historically Cornwall was a refuge of 'Welsh' tribes during the Dark Ages, never fully occupied by the Romans, and the relative isolation of the peninsula has always encouraged independent culture.
 
Woodrow Wilson however was not talking about all sub-societies getting their own slice of the action. He was attempting to find a solution to the European issue of antagonistic empires, and since Austro-Hungary had in fact divorced into the Dual Monarchy already (the same guy was the Austrian Emperor and the Hungarian King) plus independence movements in the Balkans had been emphasising local culture, and the case of the Serbs, a series of wars leading to WW1, it made sense to break-up the Austro-Hungarian Empire with defeat becoming obvious to all concerned. Remember that Great Bulgaria, formed by Russia as a a satellite state, was broken up under pressure from the other European powers because it was too strong a foothold.
 
As events in Catalonia showed, asking for independence is not straightforward. In the same way that Spain wants Gibraltar, Argentina wants the Falklands, Morocco wants Cueta etc, current desires are measured against national integrity and historical precedent. Otherwise, as former member of SPQR that seceded in the 5th century, Britain might well be called upon to bow and allow the Vatican to take control. Or does Scandanavia have a better claim to northern England by virtue of conquest and subsequent cultural influence? Texas returned to Mexico. California and Florida returned to the Spanish. Canada and Louisiana returned to the French. Alaska was sold by the Russians, so Putin might not be able to secure agreement there. Where does all this chaos stop?
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2019 at 03:10
Isn't that the point of chaos, is if it stops it is not chaos, (or to the degree it stops it is not chaos).  The big concern is slipping into the abyss.

"Old New York, was once New Amsterdam, why'd they change it, I can't say, people just like it better that way."  [They Might Be Giants]

The Indians would just like it if everybody else just "went home."  (Indian feather, not Indian dot).  In the Southwest US, there is the Atzetlan movement, which wants to claim the Northwest as an Aztec homeland because that is where they [mythically] came from.

btw, Ho Chi Mihn was at Versailles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 10:18
Regardless of one's personal perspective, IMHO, BREXIT will go down in history as one of the worst managed political decisions.

True, a slight majority of Brits voted for BREXIT, fed up with the erosion of immigration and employment laws, interference by Brussels in the internal politics of the UK, and so on.

It now seems that if BREXIT is successful, the UK could pay a nasty financial penalty with regards to trade and finance, not to mention the contentious Irish border situation. It is also becoming clear that some of the EU  member states will  also suffer financially if BREXIT comes to fruition.

To simplify, the only reasonable approach seems to be another referendum as perhaps many UK citizens didn't know of or understand the ramifications of  BREXIT when they voted.

The longer this issue remains, the more embarrassing for the UK government which is becoming a laughing stock of confusion and mismanagement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2019 at 11:27
The problem essentially is that the British public have made an unexpected and undesirable decision that Parliament is not united in upholding. Add to that the lack of charismatic and effective leadership from any party, and the factionalism present in todays Parliament, not least from the Scottish Nationalists who seem unable to comprehend that their own public voted to remain in the UK.

Another referendum is pointless other than to provide an excuse to revoke Article 50. In any case, it is not constitutional to ask the same question to the public twice. The issue is that too many politicians are deliberately refusing to support anything other than their own treasured concept of Brexit, which defies belief, considering that the EU has made it repeatedly clear that they have negotiated a deal and won't consider another. All the other possibilities are not going to happen out of thin air just because some misguided politician doesn't like the offered deal or its author.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 01:56
So there was a journalist killed in Londonderry and it's the first I've heard of this group "Saoradh", meaning Freedom. Republicanism by violence, their mission according to media but you know media.

They separate themselves from Sinn Fein after the Brexit vote and media says they benefit from any failures related to Brexit.
Is this the reason "hard border" was already being politically pushed against by the general public?
Are these kind of outbursts/rioting expected to be routine? In my neighborhood we would expect a heavy police crackdown. thanks

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As a reporter I have been in a few Ulster riots myself but even from social media on the night you can see the Creggan riot had the same vicious carnival-like atmosphere. A communal spectacle, mums and kids, turning out for a bit of excitement. A set confrontation where the rules of engagement are clear on both sides; petrol bombs not bullets, stones not snipers. 


Edited by Vanuatu - Yesterday at 01:58
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7 hours 37 minutes ago at 03:18
Sometimes if you pound your head against a wall, it will move.  But not remotely likely, usually you just get a headache and your brains addled.  Tell them to klick their heels together three times, saying, "there is no place like brexit, there is no place like brexit, there is no place like brexit."

Remember that "home" in the Wizard of Oz, was a farmstead during the great depression.  Kinda appropriate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7 hours 17 minutes ago at 03:38
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Sometimes if you pound your head against a wall, it will move.  But not remotely likely, usually you just get a headache and your brains addled.  Tell them to klick their heels together three times, saying, "there is no place like brexit, there is no place like brexit, there is no place like brexit."

Remember that "home" in the Wizard of Oz, was a farmstead during the great depression.  Kinda appropriate.
Home is home, even if the local past time is to fire bomb police vehicles.(?)Suppose so. 
Big on bombings and Derry folks seem hardcore but not any different from the US activists. 
How do we evolve by going back to the stone age? 
Maybe NYC mayor Bill Di Blasio could consult with Derry and complete the time machine that takes us back to the land of no steel or glass buildings. Let's go back to stone dwellings and spare ourselves tidying up.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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