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BREXIT?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 08:51
If you don't get what you want, then whine.  The way I see it, the powers that be assumed what the vote would be, and didn't work the problem ahead of time.  Is that accurate?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2019 at 09:11
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

If you don't get what you want, then whine.  The way I see it, the powers that be assumed what the vote would be, and didn't work the problem ahead of time.  Is that accurate?

Certainly seems to be the case.

Now some are calling for a second referendum. If that were to be held it's likely that "The Remainers" would win. The whole thing was never thought out very well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 13:01
I don't know it might even be worth it in the long run to take a short term loss, instead of being saddled to the rest of Europe, of course Britain didn't adopt the Euro, so I can't see how that can pull them down.

I am not sure why they want a divorce, then again, I am not sure why they wanted to be together in the first place.

I knew a guy who when he got divorces (3?), he just left, let her keep the house and everything.  I am sure that is what Europe has in mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2019 at 22:43
Britain chose by a small majority to leave because of concerns over worker immigration and competition for employment, national determination and identity, and a lack of commonality with European spirit. There were other minor reasons too. Personally I voted to leave because I never liked the European Union. The Common Market was a good idea but a new European power? However carefully they build it sooner or later it will end in tears. Already some member states are struggling financially and across Europe right wing groups are rising in significance.
 
Europe does not want Britain to leave. We're one of the major contributors to their budget and maintain an important financial sector. That's why they kept on fudging and stretching out the negotiation, though in fariness, Mrs May is not the worlds greatest diplomat either.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2019 at 10:26
Caldrail

So is another referendum the way to go?

What are the financial considerations in leaving the EU?

It seems to me that this issue is as important to the UK as a peoples right to self determination, could it be that the people who initially voted for BREXIT were correct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 12:04
I tend to think of Wilson's promotion at the Versailles conference of people's self-determination was a bit of the opening of the Pandora's box.  All these defuse groups now had to promote their "national" identity, often causing havoc for the Empires in which they were imbedded.  Is, for example, India better off after independence, or was it better off under British rule?   I think that the best one can argue, is that India is going sideways in different way than it was going sideways before.  How about those Indian farmers who are killing themselves these days, how has self-determination treated him.

So, if Britain has a right to self-determination, what about the Basques, or the Castellans?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 15:25
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I tend to think of Wilson's promotion at the Versailles conference of people's self-determination was a bit of the opening of the Pandora's box.  All these defuse groups now had to promote their "national" identity, often causing havoc for the Empires in which they were imbedded.  Is, for example, India better off after independence, or was it better off under British rule?   I think that the best one can argue, is that India is going sideways in different way than it was going sideways before.  How about those Indian farmers who are killing themselves these days, how has self-determination treated him.

So, if Britain has a right to self-determination, what about the Basques, or the Castellans?

Being very pro-Irish unification, I agree with you. People have a right to self determination.

If the UK does BREXIT or if it doesn't, the soft border between Northern Ireland and the Republic should remain soft or risk upsetting the Good Friday Agreement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2019 at 21:29
The only reason for holding a second referendum regardless of what some politicians are spouting is merely to allow a referendum decision to be reversed and Brexit cancelled in favour of remaining.
One would have to say India is better off now. Whether it would have improved under colonial rule is another matter, but India is a regional superpower now and growing economically despite the poverty that plagues the country.
 
The soft border is already protected under rules formulated for dealing with a No Deal exit. It states that no customs checks will take place on border crossings. The only fly in the ointment over this was the Irish Backstop but May has managed to get what politicians were asking for and the EU agreed a legal termination clause.
 
Self determination is all very well - we still have calls for that in the UK, with Scottish, Welsh, Irish, and Cornish groups working for independence (Yep - Cornwall has its own movement. Remember that historically Cornwall was a refuge of 'Welsh' tribes during the Dark Ages, never fully occupied by the Romans, and the relative isolation of the peninsula has always encouraged independent culture.
 
Woodrow Wilson however was not talking about all sub-societies getting their own slice of the action. He was attempting to find a solution to the European issue of antagonistic empires, and since Austro-Hungary had in fact divorced into the Dual Monarchy already (the same guy was the Austrian Emperor and the Hungarian King) plus independence movements in the Balkans had been emphasising local culture, and the case of the Serbs, a series of wars leading to WW1, it made sense to break-up the Austro-Hungarian Empire with defeat becoming obvious to all concerned. Remember that Great Bulgaria, formed by Russia as a a satellite state, was broken up under pressure from the other European powers because it was too strong a foothold.
 
As events in Catalonia showed, asking for independence is not straightforward. In the same way that Spain wants Gibraltar, Argentina wants the Falklands, Morocco wants Cueta etc, current desires are measured against national integrity and historical precedent. Otherwise, as former member of SPQR that seceded in the 5th century, Britain might well be called upon to bow and allow the Vatican to take control. Or does Scandanavia have a better claim to northern England by virtue of conquest and subsequent cultural influence? Texas returned to Mexico. California and Florida returned to the Spanish. Canada and Louisiana returned to the French. Alaska was sold by the Russians, so Putin might not be able to secure agreement there. Where does all this chaos stop?
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2019 at 13:10
Isn't that the point of chaos, is if it stops it is not chaos, (or to the degree it stops it is not chaos).  The big concern is slipping into the abyss.

"Old New York, was once New Amsterdam, why'd they change it, I can't say, people just like it better that way."  [They Might Be Giants]

The Indians would just like it if everybody else just "went home."  (Indian feather, not Indian dot).  In the Southwest US, there is the Atzetlan movement, which wants to claim the Northwest as an Aztec homeland because that is where they [mythically] came from.

btw, Ho Chi Mihn was at Versailles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2019 at 20:18
Regardless of one's personal perspective, IMHO, BREXIT will go down in history as one of the worst managed political decisions.

True, a slight majority of Brits voted for BREXIT, fed up with the erosion of immigration and employment laws, interference by Brussels in the internal politics of the UK, and so on.

It now seems that if BREXIT is successful, the UK could pay a nasty financial penalty with regards to trade and finance, not to mention the contentious Irish border situation. It is also becoming clear that some of the EU  member states will  also suffer financially if BREXIT comes to fruition.

To simplify, the only reasonable approach seems to be another referendum as perhaps many UK citizens didn't know of or understand the ramifications of  BREXIT when they voted.

The longer this issue remains, the more embarrassing for the UK government which is becoming a laughing stock of confusion and mismanagement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2019 at 21:27
The problem essentially is that the British public have made an unexpected and undesirable decision that Parliament is not united in upholding. Add to that the lack of charismatic and effective leadership from any party, and the factionalism present in todays Parliament, not least from the Scottish Nationalists who seem unable to comprehend that their own public voted to remain in the UK.

Another referendum is pointless other than to provide an excuse to revoke Article 50. In any case, it is not constitutional to ask the same question to the public twice. The issue is that too many politicians are deliberately refusing to support anything other than their own treasured concept of Brexit, which defies belief, considering that the EU has made it repeatedly clear that they have negotiated a deal and won't consider another. All the other possibilities are not going to happen out of thin air just because some misguided politician doesn't like the offered deal or its author.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2019 at 11:56
So there was a journalist killed in Londonderry and it's the first I've heard of this group "Saoradh", meaning Freedom. Republicanism by violence, their mission according to media but you know media.

They separate themselves from Sinn Fein after the Brexit vote and media says they benefit from any failures related to Brexit.
Is this the reason "hard border" was already being politically pushed against by the general public?
Are these kind of outbursts/rioting expected to be routine? In my neighborhood we would expect a heavy police crackdown. thanks

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As a reporter I have been in a few Ulster riots myself but even from social media on the night you can see the Creggan riot had the same vicious carnival-like atmosphere. A communal spectacle, mums and kids, turning out for a bit of excitement. A set confrontation where the rules of engagement are clear on both sides; petrol bombs not bullets, stones not snipers. 


Edited by Vanuatu - 23 Apr 2019 at 11:58
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2019 at 13:18
Sometimes if you pound your head against a wall, it will move.  But not remotely likely, usually you just get a headache and your brains addled.  Tell them to klick their heels together three times, saying, "there is no place like brexit, there is no place like brexit, there is no place like brexit."

Remember that "home" in the Wizard of Oz, was a farmstead during the great depression.  Kinda appropriate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2019 at 13:38
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Sometimes if you pound your head against a wall, it will move.  But not remotely likely, usually you just get a headache and your brains addled.  Tell them to klick their heels together three times, saying, "there is no place like brexit, there is no place like brexit, there is no place like brexit."

Remember that "home" in the Wizard of Oz, was a farmstead during the great depression.  Kinda appropriate.
Home is home, even if the local past time is to fire bomb police vehicles.(?)Suppose so. 
Big on bombings and Derry folks seem hardcore but not any different from the US activists. 
How do we evolve by going back to the stone age? 
Maybe NYC mayor Bill Di Blasio could consult with Derry and complete the time machine that takes us back to the land of no steel or glass buildings. Let's go back to stone dwellings and spare ourselves tidying up.
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2019 at 21:08
The nature of younger adults is that they're often hotheaded and prone to forming gangs to express their independence from family, desires for a society that conforms to their expectations, willingness to use covert tactics to disregard authority, and the usual hormonal aggression that makes such people like the idea of violence. I imagine that terrorism is exciting for the youngsters drawn to it, a chance to earn respect from their peers, and to feel satisfied that they can take risks and somehow prevail, however pointless it seems to the uninvolved majority.
 
Also we have a situation where there has been a history of hatred within society, almost a civil war waging behind the scenes for many decades, and sadly that sort of sentiment does not die easily among a minority of families where kids are brought up with rebellious ideas and bigoted teaching. Or possibly some are merely youngsters who want the buzz of being rebels for real.
 
I have said elsewhere that cultural identity is not easily erased, and old alignments and motives can re-appear even after generations have passed. Peace is not merely an agreement - it will always remain something that needs maintenance.
 
The truth, on a more positive note, is that the irish majority want to end such behaviour and seek peaceful solutions for the rather oppositional ideals in Northern Ireland.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2019 at 23:22
http://https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/ira-splinter-group-murders-journalist-in-londonderry-the-same-day-nancy-pelosi-visits

I agree that youth, violence and current social pressure is a fixture in history. Some form of it always exists usually young men who don't have work or money. Bands of marauding youths are archetypal even.  
The situation involving this journalist being shot has backstory. It's as a bit more than kids, even kids with fire bombs are a far cry from stockpiling weapons, police searches and the IRA is still in the killing business. 
Some intellectuals are optimistic about the rate of violence going down and that may be true on the battlefield. Close up violence with some "ideal" driving is so frequent, everywhere. Is it just what we should expect, an ebb and flow or is it catastrophic?  
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2019 at 08:44
The IRA, via it's political arm, Sinn Fein, are signatories to the Good Friday Agreement, and have fulfilled their part of the bargain.

The recent happenings in Derry are being laid at the feet of a group calling itself The Real IRA, or the New IRA, neither of which is recognised by the established IRA or the PIRA. The murder has been condemned by the IRA establishment.

I don't know yet if the NIPS has charged anyone, or proven links to the Real IRA/New IRA, but it wouldn't miss a chance to beat the IRA around the head.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2019 at 00:59
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

The main reason, I think would be the rationale behind such thoughts.

The Irish have never surrendered and have always regarded the island as one country, regardless of the fact that six counties come under British rule.
Is it wise to continue this resistance? The never surrender rationale would be the reason for a hard border then? EU says it's about criminal syndicates working together, smuggling into Ireland, avoid paying the true price. Much like US/AU politicians.
Christopher Steele, British operative and paid FBI informant wants the money the FBI owes him for the Dossier lol. 

Quote That the world sat by and watched the annexation of the Crimea is an international disgrace.
Okay you've said it again but never fail to omit blame on the Obama admin, undoubtedly you would mention the POTUS if that happened now. Was that the flexibility Obama promised Medvedev after the election?
You didn't blame Obama then and you still don't, when it comes to the Messiah you are totally biased. 

It's fine, just felt it should be pointed out that the world's view of the US wasn't boosted by that isolationist attitude. If by "world" you mean the US then I say it's not something that could have been stopped without world war. 



Edited by Vanuatu - 11 May 2019 at 01:59
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2019 at 13:32
Quote POBLACHT NA hÉIREANN

THE PROVISIONAL GOVERNMENT OF THE IRISH 

REPUBLIC TO THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND

IRISHMEN AND IRISHWOMEN:
In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom.

Having organised and trained her manhood through her secret revolutionary organisation, the Irish Republican Brotherhood, and through her open military organisations, the Irish Volunteers and the Irish Citizen Army, having patiently perfected her discipline, having resolutely waited for the right moment to reveal itself, she now seizes that moment, and supported by her exiled children in America and by gallant allies in Europe, but relying in the first on her own strength, she strikes in full confidence of victory.

We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people. In every generation the Irish people have asserted their right to national freedom and sovereignty; six times during the past three hundred years they have asserted it in arms. Standing on that fundamental right and again asserting it in arms in the face of the world, we hereby proclaim the Irish Republic as a Sovereign Independent State, and we pledge our lives and the lives of our comrades in arms to the cause of its freedom, of its welfare, and of its exaltation among the nations.

The Irish Republic is entitled to, and hereby claims, the allegiance of every Irishman and Irishwoman. The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien Government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.

Until our arms have brought the opportune moment for the establishment of a permanent National Government, representative of the whole people of Ireland and elected by the suffrages of all her men and women, the Provisional Government, hereby constituted, will administer the civil and military affairs of the Republic in trust for the people.

We place the cause of the Irish Republic under the protection of the Most High God, Whose blessing we invoke upon our arms, and we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity, or rapine. In this supreme hour the Irish nation must, by its valour and discipline, and by the readiness of its children to sacrifice themselves for the common good, prove itself worthy of the august destiny to which it is called.

Signed on behalf of the Provisional Government:
THOMAS J. CLARKE
SEAN Mac DIARMADA
P. H. PEARSE
JAMES CONNOLLY
THOMAS MacDONAGH
EAMONN CEANNT
JOSEPH PLUNKETT


Says it all, doesn't it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2019 at 01:08
Catholics and Protestants killing each other says MUCH MORE.
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2019 at 13:48
Sadly, yes it does, but the historic reasons for the sectarian violence shows that the Irish people were the victims of an attempted genocide by the British, and gave every reason to fight.

The fact that there remains pockets of sectarian violence has been condemned by Sinn Fein as well as other political parties, mainly because there has not been the expected progress on the Good Friday Agreement.

Tiocfaidh Ar La.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2019 at 22:41
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Sadly, yes it does, but the historic reasons for the sectarian violence shows that the Irish people were the victims of an attempted genocide by the British, and gave every reason to fight.
Reason to fight other Irish people? 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2019 at 15:05
How long was Ireland 'occupied' by the British?  Since Cromwell?  300 years?? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2019 at 22:35
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

How long was Ireland 'occupied' by the British?  Since Cromwell?  300 years?? 
Think of how it appears to kids in Ireland! Why are we still pissed off Da? 

“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 12:15
Boris Johnson has exactly +1 majority in Parliament after a special election that cost him a conservative vote. Pro-EU Dodds, won't go for a no deal Brexit. And now it's appears a split Labour party may be the only chance of a no deal Brexit. Ireland is attacking Johnson for threatening their economic future and a government Brexit panic plan makes dire predictions if a no plan Brexit is carried out.
So Nigel Farage wants a deal with Johnson thinking that the Labour split combined with the Brexit party vote insures the October 31st deadline. The UK press generally dismisses a clean Brexit and Farage. Media insist that all manner of harm will follow a no deal Brexit. 

Who can believe the media hype -either way?

Farage said he did not foresee Boris pulling off a clean Brexit. Instead he believes there could soon be a general election.

In the interview, he also expressed his admiration for Donald Trump.

Farage described Trump's "go back" comments aimed at four congresswomen of colour as "genius".




In the Conservatives’ first electoral test since Johnson became prime minister last month on a vow to complete Brexit “do or die,” the party was defeated for the seat of Brecon and Radnorshire in Wales by Jane Dodds of the Liberal Democrats. Dodds won 43% of the vote, against 39% for Conservative Chris Davies, who fought to retain the seat after being convicted and fined for expenses fraud.

A slide prepared for the government outlining worst-case scenarios in the day, week and month after a no-deal Brexit mentioned “potential consumer panic and food shortages” and “possible increased risk of serious organized crime including people smuggling and illegal migration.”

The slide was published by Sky News, which said it was drawn up before May left office last month. The government said it would not comment on leaked documents.

Bank of England Governor Mark Carney said a no-deal Brexit would deliver an “instantaneous shock” to the economy in which the pound would fall, prices would rise, GDP would slow and many businesses could face ruin.

“There are some very big industries in this country where that which is highly profitable becomes not profitable, becomes uneconomic, and very difficult decisions will need to be taken,” Carney told the BBC on Friday.


“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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