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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2011 at 14:39
Simple. You enter cavils that are irrelevant such as an insistence that Roman portraiture in the Republic could not have sought realism in portrayal because the term is of 19th century coinage, when in fact no art expert questions that conclusion. Sculpted Roman portrait heads were veristic and if you want to argue against such you are fighting the artistic reality. If you want to take on the subject and call everyone wrong fine but you will not get very far:
 
 
If you want to quibble with the Metropolitan Museum of Art go ahead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2011 at 00:31
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Simple. You enter cavils that are irrelevant such as an insistence that Roman portraiture in the Republic could not have sought realism in portrayal because the term is of 19th century coinage, when in fact no art expert questions that conclusion. Sculpted Roman portrait heads were veristic and if you want to argue against such you are fighting the artistic reality. If you want to take on the subject and call everyone wrong fine but you will not get very far:
 
 
If you want to quibble with the Metropolitan Museum of Art go ahead.
 
So now you have reconfigured your terminology into "veristic."  I still see no attempt to address the specifics that I have discussed in the past three posts.  It was my impression that we had cleared up the question of Realism vs. realism.  Now, could you please examine the past three posts, which do not rehash Realism vs. realism?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2011 at 05:38
BE you ask questions whose answers are quite apparent in what I have written, you just do not wish to accept them. If you want a lecture on the principle of the golden section with respect to Classic Greek Art and Architecture, read the voluminous literature. As for "reconfiguring" anything, such could only be possible if one discarded a dictionary and iterated the same-old, same-old. The veristic is a function of realism and in portraiture it demands rejection of idealization--the formulaic thrust not only of the "golden section" but the removal of the unique possessed by the individual. Naturally, your pique does stem from your first post and your insistence that the San Vitale mosaics imply the actual physical qualities of historical figures and that identification is possible within the sense of true protraiture. Such is all diddle except for the vanity of the bishop who sponsored the decor and had his name memorialized. That the workers who shaped the mosaics had probably never seen either Justinian or Theodora (certainly neither ever set foot in Ravenna) should give you pause specially since by late 548 the latter was already dead--keep in mind that Maximianus was bishop of Ravenna from  AD 546 to 556. What surprises me is your silence over Narses in your quest for verisimilitude!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2011 at 08:56

And it continues...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2011 at 10:52
It seems that you  have ignored my post of 17 March, where I suggested;
 
"
Perhaps, it would have been better to offer this meaning?
 
 
If indeed it does have any significance, would it tend to identify the wearer with Jerusalem?
 
So, what is the significance, if any, of the "bowl?  In the mosiac of the Empress, it seems it is being passed down to a fountain, does this have any meaning?  As, well, what of the implied "Book"?  Was it really designed to represent the "Holy Word?", or something else?  Upon closer examination it does seem to have the depth of a book.
 
And, you are probably correct concerning "imagination."
 
Thus do you see any significance to the placement of the feet over that of another?  Could it suggest dominance, for example?  And, it seems, it is only used by the men in the representions."
 
Any remarks?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2011 at 22:26
What is there to comment upon other than you are "seeing things" that are not there! Perhaps a suggestion is in order: bone up on your Christian symbolisms with respect to "life"--e.g.: the bread of life, the waters of life, the shield of life...further, discover the placement and divisions of church space within a liturgical context and your purported puzzle disappears.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 04:57
Dear Doktor, are you suggesting that the thing that was being passed along in both representations was merely a "loaf of bread?"
 
And, as regards the symbols placed upon the right shoulder of two of the men in the representation, what is you view as to their meaning?
 
Regards,
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 05:11
Question: if an artist uses a model for a picture of the coronation of Napoleon, and the picture looks just exactly like the model but not particularly like Napoleon, is the painting realist?
 
People used to pay quite well to be shown in pictures of important events that actually they didn't attend: was the artist there realist or symbolic? 
 
Moreover since neither realism nor symbolism were terms available in the classical world, I don't see how talking about realism then is any less justified than talking about symbolism. The Middle Ages had no concept of medievalism, but that hardly stops us using the term.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 05:20
And, if only one of the subjects was actually identified, does that cloud the entire representation?
 
In my case, I would suggest that only one identification was required to make the entire representation clear to those who would actually view it!
 
So, why is it so "unclear" today?
 
Regards,
Ron


Edited by opuslola - 22 Mar 2011 at 05:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2011 at 09:56
There is nothing "unclear" about the San Vitale mosaics, they are commemorative of the rededication of the sanctuary under Bishop Maxentius made possible by the political power of emperor. It is a grand propaganda piece and not a portrayal of the persons therein recreating an actual event.
 
Here is a solidus of Justinian...is that visage on the coin a portrait? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 04:37
Well Dr. G, a crudely stamped visage upon a coin, does not a portrait make, since it could well be a representation of you!
But, back to my questions, the representations shown in the mosiacs, depict, it seems two differing acts.  Thus there is the "Loaf of Bread", representing the "Bread of Life", I suppose held and offered by Justinian, and the "Chalice" of holy water, held and offered to the same man, by Theodora?  But, to the left part of this representation, we see a "page" drawing open a standing "Chalice", with a fountain, where by he is either showing that the "holy water" is still standing, or the idea is to fill it with newly made holy water.
 
This all leaves me somewhat confused, since I really have no idea about the process.  Perhaps you might well enlighten me, as well as others?
 
Regards,
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 07:12
Given that you are not familiar with classic church architecture and the divisions of sacred space [you've admitted your late sectarian affinities with notorious heretics of later Christianity]. The setting of of the figures is in the atrium of a church--this was also the site of the baptismal pool or font. The atrium was also the site where the members of the community brought the offerings for the liturgy (the bread and wine). The atrium led to either the narthex or directly into the nave and was separated not by doors but by curtains. The congegation itself never entered the basilical space through the atrium but instead by side entrances along the church nave. The principal function of the atrium was for the processional gatherings, in this instance the little entrance where the gospel book along with the necessary offerings formally entered for the commencement of the celebration. The curtain upon which you fixate is not "revealing" a fountain since that structure lies to its forefront and it is being pulled aside as signal that we are viewing the moment where ceremony is to begin in what is classically known as the "little entrance" to the liturgy of the catechumens. There are no "two differing acts here" given the fact that we are just looking upon a panorama displaying the processional participants. Now shall I be snide and underscore that all that is going on here dates back for a thousand years before some zanies got it into their heads that it was they who actually represented "primitive" Christianity.

Edited by drgonzaga - 24 Mar 2011 at 00:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 07:26
From the Dr. above we read these words;
 
"Now shall I be snide and underscore that all that is going on here dates back for a thousand years before some zanies got it into their heads that it was they who actually represented "primitive" Christianity."
 
Yes, the Beatles, did use the same word "snide" in one of their most famous songs, which concerned "Pigs"! 
 
YO!
 
Do you know the song?
 
Ron


Edited by opuslola - 23 Mar 2011 at 07:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 08:40
Sore about getting what was deserved...you have belabored the obvious through false denials. A simple admission from you stating that you do not understand either the historical or religious setting represented by the mosaics would have sufficed. Beware I do not turn into a Bible thumper and quote from Proverbs 26:11 (KJV).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 10:09
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Sore about getting what was deserved...you have belabored the obvious through false denials. A simple admission from you stating that you do not understand either the historical or religious setting represented by the mosaics would have sufficed. Beware I do not turn into a Bible thumper and quote from Proverbs 26:11 (KJV).
 
LOL The audacity, seriously!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2011 at 11:18
Laugh!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 15:45
Actually Docktor, I would rather you explain the series of ceremonies that attend such a service!

Since I have only attended one Catholic Mass, during a Christmas in about 1970, and as well just a few funerals, then I do no nothing about the symbolism of the specific Masses!

I would be pleased if you were able to take us step by step in the ceremony that is depicted in the above mosaic.

Regards,
Ron

Edited by opuslola - 31 Mar 2011 at 15:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 16:08
Read up on the Liturgy of John Chrysostom, which was the ritual celebration of Constantinople from the 5th century on...and on-line you can grasp the symbolisms of the "Little Entrance", which was the manner through which the essentials for the liturgy of the Proskomide and the Anaphora were brought into the Church. Those terms are Greek, by the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2011 at 08:48
Read it, have I. And, being somewhat of a simpleton, still do not understand it at all.

Sorry,but if you wish to explain it all, step by step, with all of the "Liturgy" (sing song words and various silly repetitions), then please do so.

It is mostly "beyond my pale!"

Regards,

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 04 Apr 2011 at 08:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2011 at 06:58
Since such is "beyond the pale" then engage in intercourse solely after at least a little effort at familiarization with the veneers of the civilized. If not then refrain from venturing across the line.
 
Begin here:
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 05 Apr 2011 at 08:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2011 at 08:00
Thanks for the site Doctor! It seems someone has actually tried to explain such. But is it correct, or is it merely conjecture?

After all, just what exists as evidence that the explanation of the above is correct?

As you must well know, most everyone, can be an "Expert" after the fact!

Edited by opuslola - 05 Apr 2011 at 08:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2011 at 08:13
Near two millennia of architectural consistency and if you wish to quibble over ritual and rite then better to familiarize yourself with the subject before putting forth juvenile carpings. It does not suit one with respect to your claimed longevity!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2011 at 09:11
Dear Doctor, as you should well know by now, I literally refute most all of history before the invention and mass usage of the printing press.

And, today, it seems that I also have a great deal of problems with the images produced by the very same media.

Being old, does not really stop me from sometimes acting "juvenile!" You are only as old as you feel.

My Greatest Regards,
Ronald

Edited by opuslola - 05 Apr 2011 at 09:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2011 at 09:21
As Harry Truman was fond of saying--and I paraphrase here--the only thing new in the world is the history you do not know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2011 at 09:23
May peace, respect and goodwill be amongst us!

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