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Carthaginians in South America.

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    Posted: 04 May 2014 at 11:54
I've just watched a TV program, which suggested that Carthaginian and Celts could have reached the shores of Eastern South America.
 
The basic theory is that, sailing down the west coast of North Africa, they were blown off course and landed in South America.
 
Much of the theory is based on rock carvings which contain what appear to be early Celtic Symbols, pottery and rock carvings with typical Celtic spiral type symbols, and the style of certain buildings found.
 
I have no idea whether or not the people involved are credible, but it does add an interesting twist to the story of The Americas.
Extract:
 
 
 
Did Carthaginians, Celts and Balearic People travel to South America?

"Was America discovered in the Antiquity? Carthaginians, Celts and the mystery of the Chachapoya." This is the translation of the actual Book title of Hans Giffhorn who presents in it, not a new, but a more serious and better argued thesis, about the theory that there was a connection between America and the Old World in ancient times.

The theme is very problematic in many ways, because there are always possibilities of political trouble. In the past there were theories which also claimed a connection to the old world. One theory was made by the "real" American Indiana Jones Gene Savoy, which was influence by his religious ideas. Another one is based on the ideas of Jacques de Mahieu, who claimed that the Vikings were responsible for South American advancement. The third bigger idea was of the Mormons and that a lost Israeli Tribe travelled to America, which leads them to spend a lot of money to prove this theory in South America. Besides these ideas, many find appeared in the 70s and 80s which "proved" the on or other theory. But the majority of them were identified as fakes very fast. For real science this was a huge problem, because any serious theories about a contact in the old world, had to fight against crude theories, like the ones before and that "Aliens" were responsible for South American Realms. That is the reason why the author and his consulting scientists waited over 15 years until they now present their finds.

The author Hans Giffhorn who is a well-known German Documentary Filmer (also Professor emeritus at the Universities of Göttingen and Hildesheim) and his Cameraman were in the 90s filming in area of the Chachapoya province (Peru) to find a remnant of an extingted kind of the hummingbird. After a while they found themself before the giant Walls of the Fortress of Kuelap. Relative fast they came in contact with a German Scientist (Peter Lerche) who was doing research in this area and he told them more, about the area. This area was settled by the Chachapoya, a very unique civilization which build this fortress thousand years before the Inca appeared. When the Inca around 1400 met them, they called them Warriors of the Clouds and it took them many years to finally conquer them. First Atahualpa’s Father could finally beat them. They were very impressed by these strange people and so Atahualpa’s Mother was a Chachapoya Woman. But what was so special about them? The answer is that many of them were described as white skinned and blond, brown and red of hair. The describing were all written by the later Spanish Conquistadors, but we have also images made, by a son of an Spanish Father and a Inca Mother (Felipe Guaman Poma de Ayala), who hold on information of his Inca relatives. In his images of Chachapoya women they have light skin and red/brown hair. The same anomalies found Giffhorn in isolated Chachapoya villages, where he could find blond and red-haired Childs. The first idea was that they could have been descendants of European invaders and the population off course mixed up with the Spanish invaders, but another find made him suspicious.

For more-see the link provided.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2014 at 14:13
No. Semitic peoples reaching the Americas is a myth. And old myth, that started with the surprise of Spaniards when they realize they found a place that wasn't in the Bible. A myth that has even created religions like Mormonism. But that is false.

You can find a collection of idiotic myths on pre-Columbian peoples reaching the Americas, and the debunking of those myths, on here. In the section "Americas"

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Topics

Why not ask yourself, instead, if Native Americans reached Europe in ancient times?


Edited by pinguin - 04 May 2014 at 14:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2014 at 15:19
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

No. Semitic peoples reaching the Americas is a myth. And old myth, that started with the surprise of Spaniards when they realize they found a place that wasn't in the Bible. A myth that has even created religions like Mormonism. But that is false.

You can find a collection of idiotic myths on pre-Columbian peoples reaching the Americas, and the debunking of those myths, on here. In the section "Americas"

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Topics

Why not ask yourself, instead, if Native Americans reached Europe in ancient times?
 
I just did, and my answer was a resounding, "NO".
 
Well that's not quite right, there is evidence of very minor back migration from North America.
 
But unfortunately for the ancient South Americans they suffered by their isolation.
 
Btw, my Chilean friend tells me that the indigenous people and their descendants don't like to be called Indians, they find it demeaning because there are so many "whites" who claim to be Chilean Indians, and they don't want to be associated with them.
 
 
The rest of your post is fantasy.
 
What are you smoking?
 
 
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 04 May 2014 at 15:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2014 at 15:26
Indians live in India. Columbus was an idiotic ignorant who confused terms. That's why indigenous people don't want to be associated with Krishna or Bramagupta. And sure, to be a legitimate "Indian" you must belong to a native ethnicity. Most of the population lost that legal state long ago, together with the native language, which was replaced with rascal Spanish, which today is been replaced once again by rascal English. In my particular case, my native ancestry comes from collaborators to Spaniards. Just imagine that. The proper way to refer to indigenous people is by the name of theirs ethnicity. Come on, not all the indigenous peoples of the Americas are Cherokees.








Edited by pinguin - 04 May 2014 at 15:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2014 at 15:39
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Indians live in India. Columbus was an idiotic ignorant who confused terms. That's why indigenous people don't want to be associated with Krishna or Bramagupta. And sure, to be a legitimate "Indian" you must belong to a native ethnicity. Most of the population lost that legal state long ago, together with the native language, which was replaced with rascal Spanish, which today is been replaced once again by rascal English. In my particular case, my native ancestry comes from collaborators to Spaniards. Just imagine that. The proper way to refer to indigenous people is by the name of theirs ethnicity. Come on, not all the indigenous peoples of the Americas are Cherokees.

 
I wouldn't say that Colombus was an idiotic ignorant, he made a big mistake in assuming that he had reached India.
 
Nor do I gree with your insistence that most Indigenous South Americans have lost their "ethnicity", remote tribes have remained, basically, ethnically pure for centuries. The same tribal people also still use their tribal languages.
 
People like you, who carry genetic admixture, should probably describe yourselves as Spanish/Chileans.
 
The Cherokees were too smart by far to leave their lands for the jungles of South America-and who would blame them.
 
Back on topic, you could possibly be modern day Lebanese(Carthaginian) Spanish Chilean, or even Greek.
 
 Incidentally, have you had a yDNA Test, or any DNA Test at all. The results could be very entertaining.
 


Edited by toyomotor - 04 May 2014 at 15:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2014 at 15:54
(1) Columbus was a pest. Thanks God we are rewriting history.

(2) I live in South America and I know most indigenous people has lost its identity. Many believe they are "Europeans" as if that mean anything worth.

(3) I describe myself as a Chilean. The Spanish is part of my ancestry, but in the same way I don't call myself French, Italian or Mapuche, I don't have any need to identify as "Spanish" Chilean. Even more, my last name is Basque in origin, and I feel a deep sympathy for Spanish Jews. So, there is little in common between me and Spain.

(4) Well, Amazonians were also smart. Try to survive in the Amazonian jungle one day without theirs help. Come on, that's not easy going Australia :)

(5) I am a Chilean of countryside roots (generations ago). One day I will buy a horse to be a huaso like my ancestors!! LOL. Nothing more authentic than that.

(6) I bet I will mark Surdic Big smile


Edited by pinguin - 04 May 2014 at 15:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2014 at 16:08
" I bet I will mark Surdic"
 
What does that mean?
 
Incidentally, have you had a yDNA Test, or any DNA Test at all. The results could be very entertaining.
 
PS Have you ever wondered why I'm the only one who replies to your posts normally?
 
It's because I'm a warmhearted , loving, kind, caring and sharing person.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2014 at 16:19
Ha ha ha. I bet you are. Now for "Surdic" is the local nazi myth that we Chileans are a superior mixed race of Gauls (Spanish) and Mapuche. And because that our destiny is to rule South America... It was popular in here in times of Nazi Germany. Ha ha ha. It is boloney, but I just wanted to show on there.




Edited by pinguin - 04 May 2014 at 16:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2014 at 03:30
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Ha ha ha. I bet you are. Now for "Surdic" is the local nazi myth that we Chileans are a superior mixed race of Gauls (Spanish) and Mapuche. And because that our destiny is to rule South America... It was popular in here in times of Nazi Germany. Ha ha ha. It is boloney, but I just wanted to show on there.

 
 Allow me to assure you that your welfare is uppermost in my mind.
 
As for the myth, hilarious. LOL
 
But, back on topic, I recognise that there's no solid proof of Carthaginians being in South America, but that proof could be just around the corner.
 
Science is progressing at a breathtaking speed so anything is possible.
 
My motto in this regard is, "Never Say Never".
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 05 May 2014 at 04:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2014 at 05:06
It will never be a proof of that fantasy, Toyomotor. If any allien such as Middle Easterners, Europeans, Africans, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Polynesians or martians had ever landed in pre-Columbian Americas it is only in the imagination of myth-makers. (The only documented exception was the very limited settlement of the Norse in Newfoundland, of course) There is not a single evidence of such a wonderful contact at all, in the Americas.

I don't know what drives the obsession of outsiders on robbing the heritage of Native Americans!

The fact is, the New World was really a parallel universe for more than 10.000 years, during which evolved civilizations with no relation at all to Eurasia. What is interesting is studying the parallelism between Eurasia and the Americas. I believe that could teach a lot about how human beings developed from tribal nomadic societies to civilizations.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2014 at 07:57
pinguin:
I prefer to leave the door open for new scientific discoveries.
 
You are not in a position to say that no such event ever took place. Science suggests various things from time to time, research takes place and previously held beliefs are blown out the window.
 
To admit that others may have been present in the Americas at any given time is not robbing you or your ethinicity of your heritage, it adds a bit of spice, a bit of interest.
 
And why do you never answer the questions I ask you?
 
Why do you never provide scientific sources for your statements?
 
If you wish to be taken seriously on this forum, you should not make so many negative statements.
 
You are in danger of becoming redundant.
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 05 May 2014 at 08:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2014 at 02:01
An important principle in reasoning is that you can't prove negatives. For instance, you can't prove Santa Claus, Nessy or the abominable man of the snow don't exist!!

So, please stop robbing the heritage of Native Americans with wild fantasies... Please. Otherwise, just accept they are fantasies based in wild imagination, or in some occult racism.

For references, read this. But read it, or just stop arguing nonsense.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=74



Edited by pinguin - 06 May 2014 at 02:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2014 at 12:26
OR, alternatively, accept the fact there is much we don't know about many, many things.
 
Accept the fact that some of our life long beliefs are based on either myth or imprecise science.
 
Accept the fact that the Sundance Kid actually retired to Chile where he led a peacful productive life until he died.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 02:39
Certainly. We don't know about many things. However, we are sure of something. The Americas past is like an magnet that attract lunatic theories.

I prefer to think Americans Indians developed all theirs world by themselves. After all, they are human beings as intelligent as you and me. So, there no need to call God, the martians, Santa Claus or Phoenicians in theirs help.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 04:01
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Certainly. We don't know about many things. However, we are sure of something. The Americas past is like an magnet that attract lunatic theories.

I prefer to think Americans Indians developed all theirs world by themselves. After all, they are human beings as intelligent as you and me. So, there no need to call God, the martians, Santa Claus or Phoenicians in theirs help.


1. I agree with you-there are some lunatic theories around;
 
2. As for your beliefs, again, I agree with you. Until the contrary is proven, we must go with what we know and we know that Indigenous people of South America developed a very advanced culture pre-Columbus.
 
We've really got to stop doing this, agreeing I mean.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 04:31
OK. Just a comment, without contradicting you. Not only it happened in South America. Actually, Mayans live in Mexico and Central America and in many fields was the most advanced pre-Columbian civilization of all. In South America undoubly were the Incas the top ones. And, in politics, the most adavanced society of the New World was the Iroquois Confederation in North America, and by far, because they were the single people that had a democratic federal system before Columbus reached the Caribbean.

Now, it is relatively well known how the immigrants to the New World that crossed Beringia, started from a early phase of hunter gatherers and fishermen, to agriculture of maize and potatoes, and to civilizations. So, it is possible to trace the evolution of these societies of the New World with relative clarity. What we can't (with the exception of Mayans) is to identify individuals and historical facts, because most of the ancient civilizations lacked writing. So beyond 200 years before Columbus, the past lacks historical documents.


Edited by pinguin - 08 May 2014 at 04:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2014 at 09:07
Pinguin:
I agree. It's very good to have some sort of documentation to show what has happened in the past, but technology is making up for the lack.
 
Archaeology has made some big advances over the years, the the evidence of advanced cities in South America show a high level of advancement. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2014 at 03:15
Certainly.

Just as an example, perhaps half the foods and recipes we have in Chile comes from pre-Columbian times, including names such as choclo (corn), papa (potatoes), etc. Even the native name for farm and field are preserved in daily language: chacra and cancha, respectively. Our natives were farmers, and I am proud of them. Spaniards were just a bunch of lazy people that tried to live on the effort of others.


Edited by pinguin - 09 May 2014 at 03:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2014 at 16:47
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Certainly.

Just as an example, perhaps half the foods and recipes we have in Chile comes from pre-Columbian times, including names such as choclo (corn), papa (potatoes), etc. Even the native name for farm and field are preserved in daily language: chacra and cancha, respectively. Our natives were farmers, and I am proud of them. Spaniards were just a bunch of lazy people that tried to live on the effort of others.
Just a question, mi amigo, IF Cathaginians had been in South America, would it really worry you at this point in time?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 06:07
Nope. But if Carthagians really have been here, Incas had known the wheel, the alphabet, the horse, iron and perhaps even wine, olive oil and wheat. Things they never knew, but that spread like fire in South America with the Iberian invaders.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2014 at 06:50
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Nope. But if Carthagians really have been here, Incas had known the wheel, the alphabet, the horse, iron and perhaps even wine, olive oil and wheat. Things they never knew, but that spread like fire in South America with the Iberian invaders.

 
Can't argue with that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2014 at 12:12
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


The fact is, the New World was really a parallel universe for more than 10.000 years, during which evolved civilizations with no relation at all to Eurasia. What is interesting is studying the parallelism between Eurasia and the Americas. I believe that could teach a lot about how human beings developed from tribal nomadic societies to civilizations.


In this I agree. To be able to study how people of different continents have evolved isolated from each other is indeed interesting and enlightening.
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Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


The fact is, the New World was really a parallel universe for more than 10.000 years, during which evolved civilizations with no relation at all to Eurasia. What is interesting is studying the parallelism between Eurasia and the Americas. I believe that could teach a lot about how human beings developed from tribal nomadic societies to civilizations.


In this I agree. To be able to study how people of different continents have evolved isolated from each other is indeed interesting and enlightening.
 
 
And conversely, how some didn't progress at all from their Stone Age culture until the last 200 years or so.
 
Although isolated, why didn't they progress, at least to a small extent?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2014 at 05:36
¿Do you mean, the Australian Aborigines? Perhaps the reason is they didn't need to develop anything in order to survive. They have no competition, and no demographic pressures like in other continents. I bet the reason is as simple as that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2014 at 14:04
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

¿Do you mean, the Australian Aborigines? Perhaps the reason is they didn't need to develop anything in order to survive. They have no competition, and no demographic pressures like in other continents. I bet the reason is as simple as that.
 
There you go again, we agree.
 
There was no human or animal threat, climatically, they were able to survive by using animal skins for warmth (for those who needed to), and when the local food supply ran out, they simply moved on.
 
No problemo!


Edited by toyomotor - 24 May 2014 at 14:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2014 at 20:14
Quite different from the challenges natives had in the Americas, for instance. But in isolated regions like in the Amazonia, Patagonia and the Artic, natives also had modest standards of living. Only in agricultural societies of Mexico, Southern U.S. and Peru you can see the need to improve society because population presure, war and climatic changes. In the Americas societies were very violent, unlike in Australia, I guess.




Edited by pinguin - 24 May 2014 at 20:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2014 at 02:51
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Quite different from the challenges natives had in the Americas, for instance. But in isolated regions like in the Amazonia, Patagonia and the Artic, natives also had modest standards of living. Only in agricultural societies of Mexico, Southern U.S. and Peru you can see the need to improve society because population presure, war and climatic changes. In the Americas societies were very violent, unlike in Australia, I guess.

 
Mate, the posts haven't just wandered off topic, they're in a headlong rush. LOL
 
To get back to the OP, which was only a theory that someone came up with, I think that the best we can say is that there's no evidence to support that suggestion. We can't really categorically deny the possibility because as very recent history has shown us, the unthinkable has rapidly become fact.
 
So, for my part, I thinks it's time to put this thread to bed.
 
Do you agree?
 
 
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WorldHistoria Master
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2014 at 03:09
Yes.
A point of view from the antipodes
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Tsar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2014 at 10:19
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Quite different from the challenges natives had in the Americas, for instance. But in isolated regions like in the Amazonia, Patagonia and the Artic, natives also had modest standards of living. Only in agricultural societies of Mexico, Southern U.S. and Peru you can see the need to improve society because population presure, war and climatic changes. In the Americas societies were very violent, unlike in Australia, I guess.


As we discussed before, parts of Amazonia were not as isolated as previously thought. And those who lived there were mostly agriculturalists or horticulturalists.

Edited by Carcharodon - 27 May 2014 at 11:42
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Pretorian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2014 at 19:51
Has anyone ever read 1491? (or is that just "evil propoganda")
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