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Carthaginians in South America.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 02:51
Right. It is just evil propaganda. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 13:09
Originally posted by Voltage Voltage wrote:

Has anyone ever read 1491? (or is that just "evil propaganda")
 
 
No but the CD  1492 by Vangelis is brilliant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 13:12
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Right. It is just evil propaganda. 
 
Amigo, esta bien?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2014 at 20:23
I would one like to clarify which 1491 I am speaking about, the one written by Charles C. Mann. (I am uncertain if there are any others, but it is nice to be clear)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 02:52
1491 is an interesting book, but his calculations on population density lacks scientific support. The fashion today is exaggerating the population at contact.
One north American natives once said, "today scholar believe the Pale face sneezed and the Indian died".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 03:29
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

1491 is an interesting book, but his calculations on population density lacks scientific support. The fashion today is exaggerating the population at contact.
One north American natives once said, "today scholar believe the Pale face sneezed and the Indian died".
 
WinkAnd to just think that if Columbus had have had a GPS, you wouldn't be here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 04:24
I do not endorse his work, on other grounds, but he is rather interesting. Not as interesting as Washing of the Spears though by any means. No fault of his, only his target, that's all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2014 at 07:33
Originally posted by Voltage Voltage wrote:

I do not endorse his work, on other grounds, but he is rather interesting. Not as interesting as Washing of the Spears though by any means. No fault of his, only his target, that's all.
 
To whom do you refer?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 11:18
Atlantis is Tiahuanaco / South America. (see Jim Allen's site, &/or my blog for evidences.)

Alot of sources give plenty of evidences of ancient precolumbian contacts: Jim Allen (atlantis in bolivia), Pierre Honore (in search of the white god), Nigel Davies, Graham Hancock, Barry Fell (america bc, bronze age america), J Jewell (aryans in the new world), Sicthin (lost realms), Daniken, SC Compton (exodus lost), Columbus, Piri Reis map, Donnelly (atlantis antediluvian world), Peter Kolosimo (timeless earth), Posnansky, Charles Hapgood (maps of ancient sea kings), etc.

Phoenicians/Carthaginians knew of America/s.
- carthage coins map 350 mediterranean with americas shown to west across atlantic.
- seculus: cathaginians possessed large rich island on Atlantic called al atlantis, found accidentally when ships lost and carried to island by currents, kept trade route secret. [compare inscriptions brazil/paraiba, "propaganda" etc]
- timagenes: gauls/invaders from island/land in middle of ocean which sank.
- plutarch: greeks & phoenicians visited island on west side atlantic, intermarried native women. Islands of blest/elysian fields in atlantic, gentile breezes, enjoy all things without trouble/labour, temperate/moderate climate....
- aristotle: antilla large island in atlantic known by carthaginians....
- Philo: island of atlantes in 1 day & night overwhelmed beneath sea in extraordinary earthquake(s) and flood(s).


Phoenician inscriptions etc have been found in South & North America.
inscriptions:
Brazil (sugarloaf mount) - "we are sons of Canaan...."
Brazil (paraiba) - "we are...from Sidon...." (10 ships Paraiba inscription.)
Amazon: "sakad-bahar".
fuente Magna bowl ~ sumerian inscription/writing?
USA (morganton, loudon, tennessee) - "for Jehu" [god yah not king jehu].
[bat creek inscription Jewish?]
USA (los lunas, new mexico) - decalogue stone?
USA - "dedicated to Bel".
turkey mountain inscriptions - punic/iberian,ogham "guin/g-w-n","pia/pa-ya-a","los cave","bad dog"?
Peterborough inscriptions ogham & runes (ref Fell / Jewell).

Americas was not (just) populated from Beringia. The recent oldest finds are in south not north, and east not west. Almost all Amerind traditions say they came from east over sea not from west over ice.

Peruvian Quinoa/Keen-wah "mother of all grain" = Semitic Eve/Hawah "mother of all living"

No one (alternative) is robbing Americans of things. They keep alot secret themselves; have lost alot themselves; sometimes they aren't the original first natives. The orthodox rob everyone of alot. (If they poison our water what else do they do?)

Celts are connected: there are evidences of Atlantean contacts with British Isles, etc.

HG Wells mentions the "heliolithic" culture was world wide including Peru.

BTW chile was not the last land to be settled by humans. Peru was one of the earliest lands to be settled by humans/civilisation (eg readers digest 'vanished civilisations'). "end of the world" fits Atlantis account.

(ps i'm not playing traitor to AE, just trying some other forums since AE quiet lately.)


Edited by truthsetsfree - 30 May 2014 at 11:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 11:53
Well coming to this forum is probably the smartest thing you've done in quite a while.
 
Apart from that, if your referring the "Solutrean Solution" to the peopling of the Americas, you'll be sure to get a debate here.
 
I've never heard of the archaeology you've quoted, and I'd really like to see your sources.
 
And if you're talking about the Atlantis, according to Plato, you're a few thousand kilometres off course. The legendary Atlantic was adjacent to the Pillars of Hercules, that is, to the west of Gibraltar, afaik.
 
My post on Carthaginians reaching the Americas, again afaik, has not been proven, it's only a theory.
 
But I offer you the following from http://www.thirteen.org/13pressroom/press-release/secrets-of-the-dead-carthages-lost-warriors/-which only replicates many similar sources on the internet.
 
 
Quote

 Did the Carthaginians flee the conquering Romans in 146 BC and take refuge thousands of miles away in South America? Professor Hans Giffhorns of Hildesheim University near Hanover, Germany believes they did.

In Secrets of the Dead, Carthage’s Lost Warriors, Giffhorns offers the proof he has meticulously collected to support his hypothesis. “Over the course of time, I have come across such a large amount of evidence, from a wide variety of areas, which all points towards one theory: that in ancient times people from the Old World reached Peru and joined forces with the Chachapoya,” says Giffhorns.

Did Carthaginian sailors, with possibly Celtic Iberians, journey to Peru 2,000 years ago? Convinced there were Carthaginians, who survived when Carthage fell at the end of the Third Punic War, Giffhorns begins his search for clues about their fate on the Balearic Island. What clues does he find and what do they reveal?

Why does Giffhorn think the dead at Kuelap, the mountain fortress in Peru, are actually the descendants of the Carthaginians and Celts? Do the similarities between the Celtic-Iberian settlement in Spain and the mountain fortress in the Andes support his theory?

Professor Schultz, a paleopathologist, featured in Carthage’s Lost Warriors, has identified cases of tuberculosis among the Chachapoya mummies, 1000  years before the Spanish invaders brought the disease to the new world. Does this prove that there was transatlantic contact with the Chachapoya before Columbus?

Also featured in the documentary is molecular-geneticist Professor Manfred Kayser, whose team of scientists have identfied a special marker for hair color in the human genome.  Could, Kayser theorizes, certain blonde-haired, blue eyed indigenous people, be direct descendants of Celtic warriors?

Religious symbols and images of gods that are similar, a traditional slingshot from Mallorca practically identical to a reconstructed original Chachapoya slingshot from Peru – more than 6,000 mile away – as well as the same technique of skull holes for medicinal and ritual purposes used by the Celts and the Chachapoya also point to a connection between America and the Old World in ancient times.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 12:39
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:

Atlantis is Tiahuanaco / South America. (see Jim Allen's site, &/or my blog for evidences.)

Alot of sources give plenty of evidences of ancient precolumbian contacts: Jim Allen (atlantis in bolivia), Pierre Honore (in search of the white god), Nigel Davies, Graham Hancock, Barry Fell (america bc, bronze age america), J Jewell (aryans in the new world), Sicthin (lost realms), Daniken, SC Compton (exodus lost), Columbus, Piri Reis map, Donnelly (atlantis antediluvian world), Peter Kolosimo (timeless earth), Posnansky, Charles Hapgood (maps of ancient sea kings), etc.

Phoenicians/Carthaginians knew of America/s.
- carthage coins map 350 mediterranean with americas shown to west across atlantic.
- seculus: cathaginians possessed large rich island on Atlantic called al atlantis, found accidentally when ships lost and carried to island by currents, kept trade route secret. [compare inscriptions brazil/paraiba, "propaganda" etc]
- timagenes: gauls/invaders from island/land in middle of ocean which sank.
- plutarch: greeks & phoenicians visited island on west side atlantic, intermarried native women. Islands of blest/elysian fields in atlantic, gentile breezes, enjoy all things without trouble/labour, temperate/moderate climate....
- aristotle: antilla large island in atlantic known by carthaginians....
- Philo: island of atlantes in 1 day & night overwhelmed beneath sea in extraordinary earthquake(s) and flood(s).


Phoenician inscriptions etc have been found in South & North America.... etc.


You are watching "Ancient Astronauts" too much. Popular pseudoarcheology sales well, but it is fully wrong

Please don't rob the heritage of American Indians, who didn't need the help of any illegal immigrantS from Europe or the Middle East or Atlantis to develop upper civilizations.

Finally, Solutreans is a theory endorsed by the KKK.




Edited by pinguin - 30 May 2014 at 12:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2014 at 14:09

TM: I gave a starter list in the post of some of my references/sources. Another one is Don Mackenzie on precolumbian American myth. Don't just rely on modern sources, look up the American traditions ("myths") themselves: for example they have parallels with/for the 4 rivers of Eden/4 world ages, Flood, tower of Babel, etc.

Americas (Atlantis) is (and/or was) to the west, facing/opposite the pillars of Hercules (& esp more so on certain map projections). The account/s imply that it can't be too close nor too far. There is nothing big enough in Atlantic seafloor between OW & NW. America/Atlantis shifted: the Atlantic was once upto say half the current distance then there was a shift (Atlantis "sinking"). Atlas mountains are analogy to the Andes (the real Atlas mtns).

The tuberculosis is interesting. Also compare:
tobacco & cocaine found in Egyptian new kingdom mummies.
south american fan palm in assyrian depictions of toakkari sea peoples.
american cotton in Africa?
african plants in Americas?

Necho's fleet (phoenicians) went south which some think means Atlantis was in the south [~ South America].

(Why is coming here smartest?)

pinguin: If the kkk endorse that the earth goes round the sun do you reject that? It doesn't matter who does or doesn't endorse it (tho they may be wrong in mis/using it) or whether its popular but whether it is true or not. We could say that the criminal current globalist regime endorse the orthodox theories....) Stephen Compton is one orthodox reputible scholarly source. We can't just puritanically refuse to consider evidences in sources just because of being branded.
I keep hearing that alternative is "popular" yet all the forums i been on everyone is so pro orthodox "scholarship/science" and anti [alleged-] "pseudo".
I'm not selling anything though i wouldn't mind some (free) blog readers.
Its not fully wrong or pseudoArchaeology, there are undeniable facts/evidences. For Pete's sake Velikovsky even quotes Darwin on evidences that the Andes were raised up suddenly in modern humans times.

I didn't mention ancient astronauts any where, except that 2 of the sources happen to have some of that in them. (As a matter of fact no one can dispute that there were "gods/aliens/angels/amphibians" from space/sky/heaven at some stage in history anyway since many ancient cultures have tradition evidences of that. Elamite priest star studded robe, ziggurats raised to heaven.)

I didn't mention solutreans either, except the "oldest are in east not west" bit. There is plenty of evidences of contact between prehistoric americas (clovis/solutrean, high arctic mackenzie culture/cromagnids, otamid/cromagnons, basque/amerind, chancelade/eskimo, "flat faced" amerind/cromagnons, big game hunters/cromagnons, ice ages, etc).

Already answered the "robbing Americans". I like the Amerinds more so than the "Europeans"/Asians running the world at present, though even the natives like the Maoris here seem to be pro globalist. American Indians are descended from Atlanteans, that is great not robbing. The truth reconciles Americans and Europeans. They said Viracocha/Quetzalcoatl/Votan/Kukulcan/Bochica/Poseidon brought culture. I'm not getting into any arguments about who the culture bringers were; I didn't not say anything about Europeans bringing culture, we can't evade the truth that there were ancient contacts between the old world and the new world, that doesn't necessarily imply European/Asian versus American culture builders/bearers. I am not "Aryan/master" or Jew/"chosen" or Turanian/"serpent" myself.


The 3 pyramids at Sipan (Peru/Andes coast area) look to me like an indisputible parallel of the 3 Giza pyramids.

(I keep getting access denide problems in IE.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2014 at 03:05
I think it safe to say that most of us, at one time or another, have found what later turns out to be pseudo science, compelling on an issue of interest. It's only when we obtain the genuine article that the pseudo-scientists get defrocked.
 
As I said, I've never heard of the sources you quote, but of course that doesn't mean much. What I'd like to see is the scientific evidence that underpins your statements.
 
All sorts of people could have visited various places on this planet, but we need some solid evidence before we say it is a fact, and for that we need archaeology, written documents and, hopefully some DNA.
 
Failing that, all we have is speculation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2014 at 05:13
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:


TM: I gave a starter list in the post of some of my references/sources. Another one is Don Mackenzie on precolumbian American myth. Don't just rely on modern sources, look up the American traditions ("myths") themselves: for example they have parallels with/for the 4 rivers of Eden/4 world ages, Flood, tower of Babel, etc.

Americas (Atlantis) is (and/or was) to the west, facing/opposite the pillars of Hercules (& esp more so on certain map projections). The account/s imply that it can't be too close nor too far. There is nothing big enough in Atlantic seafloor between OW & NW. America/Atlantis shifted: the Atlantic was once upto say half the current distance then there was a shift (Atlantis "sinking"). Atlas mountains are analogy to the Andes (the real Atlas mtns).

The tuberculosis is interesting. Also compare:
tobacco & cocaine found in Egyptian new kingdom mummies.
south american fan palm in assyrian depictions of toakkari sea peoples.
american cotton in Africa?
african plants in Americas?

Necho's fleet (phoenicians) went south which some think means Atlantis was in the south [~ South America].

(Why is coming here smartest?)

pinguin: If the kkk endorse that the earth goes round the sun do you reject that? It doesn't matter who does or doesn't endorse it (tho they may be wrong in mis/using it) or whether its popular but whether it is true or not. We could say that the criminal current globalist regime endorse the orthodox theories....) Stephen Compton is one orthodox reputible scholarly source. We can't just puritanically refuse to consider evidences in sources just because of being branded.
I keep hearing that alternative is "popular" yet all the forums i been on everyone is so pro orthodox "scholarship/science" and anti [alleged-] "pseudo".
I'm not selling anything though i wouldn't mind some (free) blog readers.
Its not fully wrong or pseudoArchaeology, there are undeniable facts/evidences. For Pete's sake Velikovsky even quotes Darwin on evidences that the Andes were raised up suddenly in modern humans times.

I didn't mention ancient astronauts any where, except that 2 of the sources happen to have some of that in them. (As a matter of fact no one can dispute that there were "gods/aliens/angels/amphibians" from space/sky/heaven at some stage in history anyway since many ancient cultures have tradition evidences of that. Elamite priest star studded robe, ziggurats raised to heaven.)

I didn't mention solutreans either, except the "oldest are in east not west" bit. There is plenty of evidences of contact between prehistoric americas (clovis/solutrean, high arctic mackenzie culture/cromagnids, otamid/cromagnons, basque/amerind, chancelade/eskimo, "flat faced" amerind/cromagnons, big game hunters/cromagnons, ice ages, etc).

Already answered the "robbing Americans". I like the Amerinds more so than the "Europeans"/Asians running the world at present, though even the natives like the Maoris here seem to be pro globalist. American Indians are descended from Atlanteans, that is great not robbing. The truth reconciles Americans and Europeans. They said Viracocha/Quetzalcoatl/Votan/Kukulcan/Bochica/Poseidon brought culture. I'm not getting into any arguments about who the culture bringers were; I didn't not say anything about Europeans bringing culture, we can't evade the truth that there were ancient contacts between the old world and the new world, that doesn't necessarily imply European/Asian versus American culture builders/bearers. I am not "Aryan/master" or Jew/"chosen" or Turanian/"serpent" myself.


The 3 pyramids at Sipan (Peru/Andes coast area) look to me like an indisputible parallel of the 3 Giza pyramids.

(I keep getting access denide problems in IE.)


Fellow. I am afraid yours sources are all popular pseudoscience, which is a pitty because you believe in that stuff.  For instance.

(1) The Pilars of Hercules in Gibraltar stuff is Baloney. All the evidence point to Thera as the "Atlantis". And in ancient times not only Gibraltar was known as the "Pilars of Hercules", just in case you didn't know.

(2) For these similarities, I recommend you to read Jung and the parallelism in ancient religions. for "example they have parallels with/for the 4 rivers of Eden/4 world ages, Flood, tower of Babel, etc.". Have you ever though all humans are the same? That's the problem with pseudoscience, it is based in beliefs of the 19th century.

(3) "south american fan palm in assyrian depictions of toakkari sea peoples" Do you know how many palms are in South America? Even more, don't you know coconuts float in sea water? Confused

(4) "The tuberculosis is interesting." Yes. It is, so what?

(5) "There is plenty of evidences of contact between prehistoric americas (clovis/solutrean, high arctic mackenzie culture/cromagnids, otamid/cromagnons, basque/amerind, chancelade/eskimo, "flat faced" amerind/cromagnons, big game hunters/cromagnons, ice ages, etc)."

That's not evidence but pure crap.

(6) "Already answered the "robbing Americans". I like the Amerinds " I don't think so. If you love them so much you didn't rob them.

Please read the following site before continuing attributing to foreigners the achievements of Native Americans. They have suffered so much already with the evil behavior of foreigners, that it is time to stop robbing them.

If you read these articles seriously, you will find all the childish theories you mentioned above are debunked one after another.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Topics

I recommend you specially this article.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=74

If you still believe in those things after reading carefully those articles, perhaps it is time you visit the greatest debunker of myths: Jason Covalito. Perhaps reading him you will realize there is a huge industry that exploits the ignorance of people.

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/america-unearthed.html










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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 03:48
Penguin, mate, your confusing me with truthsetsfree. I didn't say the above, although I will debate the alleged existence of Atlantis with you, and its location.
 
But, as this thread has nothing to do with Atlantis, perhaps I won't.
 
I agree with your comments about the pseudoscience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 05:25
I open a thread on Atlantis for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 08:26
TM: But what is "scientific/solid evidence"? There are documents and archaeology and dna but you[s] reject them as "pseudo" (while admiting that you haven't even seen/heard of them). It is not just speculation, though i can't prove every jot and tiddle (neither can you or science. Even evolution has missing links but they accept that. People never apply the same rigid). "Scientists" don't have a monopoly on truth/knowledge/ability/etc. Some of the things i gave are scientific. Sadly it is the way things are, the status quo gets away with forcing their wrongs until we can produce heavy mass enough proofs (and presented in a way that they accept) that they are forced to change it.

Yes this topic is about carthaginians/celts in america , i gave alot of bits and pieces on that ; but it is unavoidably connected with atlantis and other mentioned bits and pieces. (Even the given classical quotes mention atlantis & phoenicians connected, and atlantis and celts connected). Phoenicians came from the "red sea" ot tylos. Red sea can be Atlantic (as in Strabo). Phoenicians came from Sea Peoples accoriding to some scholars. Some scholars link sea peoples with Atlanteans.
Celts had high sea faring ships/boats in Caesar's time, London was a port with hundreds of ships in early ad times.


Pinguin: I am not wasting my time reading anymore links people give me supposedly "debunking" so-called "pseudo" : everytime i have done that before (for example on Ron Wyatt, and on the flood/ark, etc) it has just wasted my time and effort since when i come back after hours/days time & effort studying/analysing it people still ignore my criticism feedback comments on the link articles. [I mean here i go again, forced to read pages and pages and pages of stuff because if i don't you will accuse me of being bad. Always keeps happening to me. Every single time i jhave to read pages and pages taking hours and hours then as always i will find i wasted my time because they not really debinked my evidences afterall.]
I see that the hall of Maat even lists one of my sources as one of their "good" sources (Nigel Davies) anyway.
Besides, people don't bother to read mine (i have answered the Atlantis things already in my blog atlantis article). (I may look at the colavito links out of interest though.) However i have already had experience with hall of maat and have to say that i don't agree that they are any better than me or my sources. (I am the one that posted on Joseph = Sekhemhet on their forum.)

Donald MacKenzie shows how it is not possible to explain the similarities by mere "humans are all the same". There are things that can not have been come up with independently twice, it would be like the union jack being come up with twice by isolated cultures. Even small details are the same like say the sending out of birds from the Ark.

Yes there are a few different SA fan palms, it was one of them.
Wasn't coconuts but cocoa.

There were 12 pillars of Hercules, but the ones of the Atlantis account are clearly the pillars of Hercules at Gibraltar (or rather Gades or Tartessos).
Thera is doesn't match the account: wrong size, wrong direction, wrong date, wrong catastrophe type (and dind't sink/disappear), wrong distance, etc etc etc. There is nothing matching Atlantis found there. Where is the great plain? the many species of animals, the mountains, the 10 kings regions, etc etc?

Look, Sth Americans aren't the only people who have and are suffering, I have had 41 years of hell so far (including that i am 41 and always been single, and i don't even have clean (unfluoridated) water or clean (unsprayed) food), and no one sympathises with me because i am a european male middle age etc. I didn't do it too them, and I am not doing it to them (though you make me out to be robbing them). All humans are sinners (the incas had slaves, harems, human sacrifice, etc before the cruel spanish came). Tiahuanaco was Atlantis city, i don't see how that is offensive. I believe their American traditions, you don't, i don't see how i am robbing them.
Moreover please note that i investigate all cultures and it is the same with them all. I mean germanic "myth" for example also has biblical parallels. British isles had ancient contacts with mediterranean/eastern world, I am i robbing them like "robbing Americans"? Yes all peoples had/have achievments. There needs to be genuinine objective consideration of the evidences of ancient contacts between old world and new world.
Sorry I will leave since i am so offensive to pinguin. (After posting/answering a replies to Atlantis topic).

No one exploits me, I always try to do my own thinking and draw my own conclusions. No one exploits more than the current "western" world order. Further i believe the bible and ancient sources (including south american) more than modern sceptics/"science" any day. No one had debunked my discoveries (that is not to say that i have not made mistakes which have been shown wrong on forums like hall of maat, etc.)

Everyone is so busy "debunking" but no one is creating anything (except scientists supposedly "gradually finding things"). Everyone defends the status quo worldview.


diffusionism vs isolationsim
catastrophism vs uniformitarianism
Julius Evola/creationism vs evolutionism
cyclical vs linear
no-fluoride vs fluoridationsits
atlantis in atlantic vs thera
etc


Edited by truthsetsfree - 01 Jun 2014 at 08:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 12:11
Sorry, but your last post has me so confused that I'm now bowing out of this discussion.
 
It was about the speculation of Carthaginians in the Americas after all!


Edited by toyomotor - 01 Jun 2014 at 12:11
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2014 at 17:36
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:


I see that the hall of Maat even lists one of my sources as one of their "good" sources (Nigel Davies) anyway.


No. Yours sources aren't so good, unfortunately. There is a lot of mythology on the topic of the settlement of early America, and very respected theories that had gone to the garbage can.
The problem with this topic is that nobody listen to the scientific evidence.

Modern genetical and linguistic studies have shown clearly that Native Americans descend from Beringians and reached the Americas circa 15.000 years ago. Also have prove there are not evidence of external influences in the Americas up to the time of contact, with the well documented exceptions of the entrace of Inuits, and the landing of Norse in Newfoundland. Except those, all the rest of supposed contacts lack scientific support.

Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:


Donald MacKenzie shows how it is not possible to explain the similarities by mere "humans are all the same". There are things that can not have been come up with independently twice, it would be like the union jack being come up with twice by isolated cultures. Even small details are the same like say the sending out of birds from the Ark.


The problem with diffusionism is it never take into account the DIFFERENCES rather than the similarities. For instance, any culture in Eurasia influenced each other. You can check that noticing the spread of math and stylistic fashions. For instance, you can detect the influence of Greece in India's mathematics and sculputure. The influence of India in East Asia in religion and arts. The influence of China in the west mainly on inventions., etc.

You can't do the same with the Americas because those inventions and arts were developed in different times and in other context. So, the question is NOT whether there are some similarities but WHY certain critical inventions in Eurasia didn't exist in the Americas.

For instance, it is not very smart to ask why there is paper among the Mayans and the Chinese, or why zero was known by Mayans before invented in India, or why Andes peoples knew the air pressure toys in the same fashion of Zeno of Alexandria. Those aren't "influences" but just parallel inventions.

You must ask, instead, why the Americas lacked things so obvious like the following that I show as an example:
Inventions

(1) wheeled chariots
(2) gears (without gears you don't have clocks, cranks and lots of technology. You don't have machines!!)
(3) Iron
(4) Alphabet
(5) Writing (most civilizations used nemonic symbols rather than writing, except Mayas).
(6) Ships (navigation was in canoes, inflatable boats and balsa rafts, no mather Mantenos knew the sail)
(7) The arch (invented in 5th century B.C., the arch never reached the Americas.
(8) The string musical instruments! (except a very singular exception, the string instruments were totally unknown in the Americas.
(9) Distilled drinks.

And the following animals and plants.
(1) Wheat and rice (totally unknown in the Americas, but the basic foods of Eurasia)
(2) Cows, Ox
(3) Horse, donkeys
(4) Sheep, goats
(5) Chickens.
(6) Wine
(7) Milk, Cheese and Yogurt

Just no name a few. None of those were in the Americas at contact. So why not??

Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:


 All humans are sinners (the incas had slaves, harems, human sacrifice, etc before the cruel spanish came). Tiahuanaco was Atlantis city, i don't see how that is offensive. I believe their American traditions, you don't, i don't see how i am robbing them.
Moreover please note that i investigate all cultures and it is the same with them all. I mean germanic "myth" for example also has biblical parallels. British isles had ancient contacts with mediterranean/eastern world, I am i robbing them like "robbing Americans"? Yes all peoples had/have achievments. There needs to be genuinine objective consideration of the evidences of ancient contacts between old world and new world.
Sorry I will leave since i am so offensive to pinguin. (After posting/answering a replies to Atlantis topic).


I can agree with that. Incas weren't better than the rest.
The problem with myth is that distort the truth. And the truth is the Americas developed by themselves, so the tragedy of the conquest is not only about people suffering, genocide, exploitation and stealing of lands. It is also the rewriting of the past made by Eurocentric though since the conquest, which has tried to destroy 12.000 years of events in the Americas, and that has cultivated a legion of fantasies to erect a smoke curtain that conceal truth.

And the truth is Amerindians developed those magnificent civilizations of the New World, all by themselves and from scratch, with the help of anybody else.

The point is not if they were better than the rest, or if theirs civilizations were more primitive or lacked something. The point is that Amerindians are just humans like the rest. And that's something it took 5 centuries to be recognized by the Western Civilization.



Edited by pinguin - 01 Jun 2014 at 17:39
A point of view from the antipodes
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