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Castro's military adventures in Africa

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    Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 02:21
Why Cuba went to Africa?

During the last five centuries Latin America always fought for independence, and to get rid of foreign powers. And here we have a country of Latin America going to Africa to spread its political influence through warfare Confused. What a contradiction.

The arguments of Cuba were to going to help "comrades" in that continent, in theirs own revolutionary movements, but I don't think that was the only reason. Cuba is a country very influenced by Africa, given its population is black in a large degree, more than any other country of Latin America with the exception of Dominican Republic. If that's the case, the involvement could has been justified as a participation in wars of the motherland, in the same way Hispanics from Latin America fought in the Spanish Civil War, and German immigrants in South America went to Europe to fight for Hitler. However, if such is the case, why Cuba went to Africa to fight and not Brazil? Shocked

Let's analyze these strange adventures of Cuba in Africa.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 16:25
Get serious Penguin! The farce of Castro (in your terminology the quintessential gallego) aiding the "motherland" is so much hooey as to be pathetic. In the realm of geo-politics the assistance extended to the government of Angola was an act of realpolitik in the grand manner and fitting quite well into the roils of the Cuban-Soviet alliance of the 1980s. Besides, Brazil did support Dos Santos and the MPLA as the legitimate government of Angola throughout, besides many Angolans sought refuge from the violence in their country in Brazil! Nor should you forget that in the 1980s, Brazil was emerging from over 20 years of military rule (from the deposition of Goulart onwards) and had its own internal problems to resolve.
 
Of course, then there is that little tinge of Racism your so freely seek to reintroduce with this statement:
 
Cuba is a country very influenced by Africa, given its population is black in a large degree, more than any other country of Latin America with the exception of Dominican Republic.
 
Where is Haiti located, on the moon? You have been called on the carpet before as a result of these types of mutterings and I am doing so once again. There is little difference between your ravings and the patent nonsense of "Back to Africa" movements.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 17:39
Spreading the message of la revolucion on behalf of the Ruskies.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 19:23
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Where is Haiti located, on the moon? 


If you want to call Haiti a Latin American country, why don't you call Equatorial Guinea a part of Spain? Don't be silly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 19:46
Well, as an expert in things Spanish, Penguin, you should know that Guinea Equatorial considers itself a hispanophone state and also has  a regional dialect (it has even shown interest in joining the GCPLP because of Sao Tome). Why there are even regular Iberia flights between Malabo and Madrid (Air France has the same service for Paris). But the marked difference in your faux analogy is the fact that geographically Haiti sits not on the African land mass but in the Americas. Further Haiti has been a member of the Organization of American States since the inception of that organization just as prior to that it was an official participant in the Pan American Union. That you quibble over such does not show you in the best of lights and in a way you echo the baser points of Trujillismo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 19:50
Don't be crazy, Drgonzaga. The OAS includes countries of all the Americas: Anglo-America, Brazil, Hispanic America and the West Indies. Latin America doesn't include all countries of the region at all. In fact, locally, Latin America is associated with Iberian America, rather than with a term invented by crazy French imperialists. If it weren't by the damn French ambitions Haiti would have never be considered a part of the region. In fact, Haiti has a lot more in common with Jamaica, Barbados or Trinidad rather than with Hispanic America or Brazil.

Sorry, but you can keep it Haiti for yourself. That country is not even included in the Americas' Francophonie... Ask a Quebecois if Haiti is theirs fellow colony in the Americas. Give me a break.

Your Afrophilia is remarkable and very moving, and something to admire in you, but don't expect everybody shares your sweet feelings. Wink


Edited by pinguin - 30 Jan 2011 at 19:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 20:14
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Why Cuba went to Africa?
 
They were paid to. You have to earn your living somehow.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 20:47
OK. Let's start to detail Castro's adventures in Africa:

(1) Congo Crisis.

(2) Eritrean War

(3) Ogaden War

(4) Angola's Wars
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 21:20
Woeful ignorance is no excuse for the dissemination of bs. For one thing the history of the Dominican Republic is utter nonsense absent Haiti and for someone forever perorating on African roots everywhere but in your dear old Chile (a point to which I put the lie earlier with regard to Valparaiso), the level of tolerance and patience held by others is fast reaching exhaustion. If you do not understand that the Pan American Union did not include either Canada nor the appenages of France, the UK and the Netherlands, but did include Haiti then such ignorance is regrettable. Further one can hardly comprehend the history of Cuba in the 18th and 19th century without considering Haiti. That negritude disturbs you is your psychopathy and not anyone elses. You've done this type of nonsensical argumentation before, and I for one am more than tired of it. Whether you like it or not Haiti is part of Latin America and has always been treated as such both by diplomacy and cultural contact.

Edited by drgonzaga - 30 Jan 2011 at 21:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 21:27
Castro believed in the "revolucion" but also in being prepared. An idle army is a dangerous army and a weak one too and since the threat of coup or US invasion was ever present sending troops to Africa to both gain experience and do the dirty work for the Russians would help him by both making the army busy and giving it alot of experience.
 
By the way South Yemen was also quite active in Africa joining the Eritrian and Ogaden wars.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 21:28
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Woeful ignorance is no excuse for the dissemination of bs. For one thing the history of the Domican Republic is utter nonsense absent Haiti and for someone forever perorating on African roots everywhere but in your dear old Chile (a point to which I put the lie earlier with regard to Valparaiso), the level of tolerance and patience held by others is fast reaching exhaustion. If you do not understand that the Pan American Union did not include either Canada nor the appenages of France, the UK and the Netherlands, but did include Haiti then such ignorance is regrettable. Further one can hardly comprehend the history of Cuba in the 18th and 19th century without considering Haiti. That negritude disturbs you is your psychopathy and not anyone elses. You've done this type of nonsensical argumentation before, and I for one am more than tired of it. Whether you like it or not Haiti is part of Latin America and has always been treated as such both by diplomacy and cultural contact.


Doctor. You aren't a Latin American. Keep your imperialistic ideas for yourself. The people who defines if Haiti is part or not of Latin America is ourselves. Not Spaniards or Americans.

Why don't you push Haiti upon Quebec or France instead? After all, they are more closer to the history of that country than Hispanic Americans. As Trujillo said: "Perejil" Confused



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 21:29
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Castro believed in the "revolucion" but also in being prepared. An idle army is a dangerous army and a weak one too and since the threat of coup or US invasion was ever present sending troops to Africa to both gain experience and do the dirty work for the Russians would help him by both making the army busy and giving it alot of experience.
 
By the way South Yemen was also quite active in Africa joining the Eritrian and Ogaden wars.
 
Al-Jassas


That's an interesting oppinion. Castro needed to keep its army ready, indeed. After Bay of Pigs, that island became paranoic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 22:14

You amaze me repeatedly with your pretentious racist claptrap. That you choose to quote Trujillo of all people is even more ludicrous since his own mother was surnamed Chevalier and she was of Haitian descent while his second wife was surnamed Hureaux, with a similar background,hence your recourse to his name is really a hoot! His psychopathy with regard to Haiti is more than well documented, made even more so by the fact that in the Caribbean he was satirized as "el mulato de las medallas"! Or have you forgotten that from 1822 to 1844, the island of Hispaniola was a single political unit under the presidency of Boyer?

Keep your medicinal herbs to yourself, because when it comes to who defines what and why you haven't even a roll of toilet paper to present as credentials. Whether you like it or not "Latin" America is an inclusive and not an "exclusive". Personally, I employ the term the Americas, period and I do not give tuppence for your attempts at flight or your queasiness over a Negro republic intruding upon your blissful mestizo malarkey. Jamaica is as much a part of the Americas as Chile and the facts of geography and a shared historical eperience makes it so. If you don't like it well too bad, stew in your own juices until you've grown up!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 22:32
You are riduculous, doctor. Jamaica, Bahamas and Barbados should be put together with the U.S. and Canada in Anglo America. There is nothing "Latin" about them. With respect to Haiti, that country should be considered together with the Quebec Province and French Guyana rather than with the Hispanic Peoples of the New World.

If you don't think so, you are the guy who have not idea. Racism has nothing to do with the topic, no matter Haitians are a transplanted people. As allien as the settlers of the Falklands.

The term Latin America was invented by the Frech and, obviously, they tried to put theirs colonies in the pot so to claim some ascendency to the rest of the region. They were trying to grab Mexico at the time, don't you remember?

This is Hispanic America, which is the region that locals here care:



As you can see, Haiti is not a Hispanic country. Now, the next step is Iberian America.



As you can see, Haiti, Jamaica or Bahamas aren't there either. There aren't Suriname or the Guayanas either.

Saying that Haiti is Latin American is just a distorsion of a French definition. Obviously, Haiti is not Ibero-American and less it is Hispanic-American, no matter how much you cry. And Haitians hardy can speak French, anyways.













Edited by pinguin - 30 Jan 2011 at 22:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 15:18
Oh, excuse me...how could I forget that OAS stands for Organization of Afro-American States!Evil Smile
 
Enough of these silly games since Hispanic and Iberian are also artifices as much as the bit about Latin. Whether you say kreol or criollo instead of creole is entirely immaterial to the realities of geography.
 
Anyway, in full Penguin mode I'll give you your own clip 'n' paste:
 
 
Only in America so to speak...
 
or have you forgotten that the term mestizaje is not as you would have it. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the term Marabou but then you might enjoy this site:
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 01 Feb 2011 at 15:32
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I would like to state that Cuba did not always see eye-to-eye with the Soviet Union, in the overall strategy for Africa. For example in Angola, during the famous 1987/88 campaigns of Operacao Saludando Octubre, and the South African/UNITA counteroffensives Operations Hooper and Packer leading to the siege of Cuito Cuanavale, Soviet advisers were pulled out after the disastrous FAPLA defeat at the Lomba River by SADF/UNITA forces, after insisting on  rigidly applying Soviet military doctrine, against Cuban advice.Subsequently Cuban forces effectively prevented the collapse of FAPLA/MPLA at Cuito, and then opened a new front in the Cunene region, which wrong footed the SADF, despite their initial overwhelming victories at Lomba/Mevinga. In this context Cuba showed a deeper commitment to the Angolan struggle (1975-90) and adherence to its revolutionary principles.
 
One can also state that Cuba's population and armed forces, having a significant African-origin component, did also,at least in the eyes of the Cubans and their African allies (RENAMO, MPLA, ANC) presented the feel of an anti-Apartheid war that legitimised the Cuban intervention in a way that was not possible for the Soviet Union, hence transcending the Cold War Realpolitik paradigm to something more broad based.  and populist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2011 at 20:36
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Oh, excuse me...how could I forget that OAS stands for Organization of Afro-American States!Evil Smile
 
Enough of these silly games since Hispanic and Iberian are also artifices as much as the bit about Latin. Whether you say kreol or criollo instead of creole is entirely immaterial to the realities of geography.
 
Anyway, in full Penguin mode I'll give you your own clip 'n' paste:
 
 
Only in America so to speak...
 
or have you forgotten that the term mestizaje is not as you would have it. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the term Marabou but then you might enjoy this site:
 


There is a difference between mestizaje and mulataje. And a Kreol is not exactly the same that a Criollo. Usually the later bought the former.  And indeed, some Haitians may have a bit of Amerindian blood as well, but theirs culture and genetics is African by a large margin.



Edited by pinguin - 02 Feb 2011 at 01:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 01:32
Originally posted by Tashfin Tashfin wrote:

....
One can also state that Cuba's population and armed forces, having a significant African-origin component, did also,at least in the eyes of the Cubans and their African allies (RENAMO, MPLA, ANC) presented the feel of an anti-Apartheid war that legitimised the Cuban intervention in a way that was not possible for the Soviet Union, hence transcending the Cold War Realpolitik paradigm to something more broad based.  and populist.


That was, at least, the reasons that justify Cuban intervention in Africa.

Cuba always applied that strategy. In Latin America they called brother Latinos to the rest of Latin Americans, and obviously they played the same card with Africa, resorting to the African origin of part of theirs population.

It is curious that such strategy of recalling ancestors didn't work when Che Guevara went to capture Bolivia. There he was saw as an allien by the local indigenous population, and therefore he was denounced to the army Confused...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 16:20
The Penguin:
 
There is a difference between mestizaje and mulataje. And a Kreol is not exactly the same that a Criollo. Usually the later bought the former.  And indeed, some Haitians may have a bit of Amerindian blood as well, but theirs culture and genetics is African by a large margin.

What can one say other than stand in silent amazement as he contradicts himself from thread to thread! He even presents words such as mulataje, not recognized by the Real Academia by the way, that are actually coined by anthropologists and belong totally to the milieu of the 20th century [it is the equivalent of saying in English mulattoism].
 
Mestizaje, Mulataje, Mesticagem in Latin American Ideologies of National Identities
 
I would love that at each turn he cries "it ain't so" he would cite his evidence...but hey that would interfere with his batu of immediate thread generation by consuming way too much time...I wonder if he knows the origins of the name Haiti?


Edited by drgonzaga - 02 Feb 2011 at 16:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 16:36
PS: As for Cuba and Africa in the last quarter of the 20th century, what is so pernicious in accepting the fact that Cuba not only had a foreign policy but was committed to the revolutionary ethos of "nation building" upon socialist premises. Long before Angola, Cuban foreign policy established strong links with Ahmed Ben Bella in Algeria in 1962 that survived the demise of that "revolutionary". If any comments need be made that underscore the startling it is a simple one: The remarkable capacity of a small nation such as Cuba to elaborate a high-international profile that in no way can be classified as "adventurism" since it has not only been consistent but also an integral part of its diplomacy. We are not discussing the Kims of Korea here!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 17:04
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

The Penguin:
 
There is a difference between mestizaje and mulataje. And a Kreol is not exactly the same that a Criollo. Usually the later bought the former.  And indeed, some Haitians may have a bit of Amerindian blood as well, but theirs culture and genetics is African by a large margin.

What can one say other than stand in silent amazement as he contradicts himself from thread to thread! He even presents words such as mulataje, not recognized by the Real Academia by the way, that are actually coined by anthropologists and belong totally to the milieu of the 20th century [it is the equivalent of saying in English mulattoism].
 
Mestizaje, Mulataje, Mesticagem in Latin American Ideologies of National Identities
 
I would love that at each turn he cries "it ain't so" he would cite his evidence...but hey that would interfere with his batu of immediate thread generation by consuming way too much time...I wonder if he knows the origins of the name Haiti?


Yes, I know from where Haiti comes from. From the original inhabitants of the island, before it was resettled by African slaves. Sorry fellow don't try to pass cat for rabbit. A Kriol is not a Crillo, no matter how hard you try. And, certainly, a mestizo is not a mulato, and a mulato is not a sambo, no matter how many internet references you can quote.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 17:39
Your racist insecurities are getting to you Penguin since modern usage and not the grand illustrated tables from the 18th century on display at the Museo Nacional de Antropologia in Mexico prevail.
 
Here's the RAE:

mestizo, za.

(Del lat. tardio mixticius, mixto, mezclado).

1. adj. Dicho de una persona: Nacida de padre y madre de raza diferente, en especial de hombre blanco e india, o de indio y mujer blanca. U. t. c. s.

2. adj. Dicho de un animal o de un vegetal: Que resulta de haberse cruzado dos razas distintas.

3. adj. Dicho de la cultura, de los hechos espirituales, etc.: Provenientes de la mezcla de culturas distintas.


If you choose the old colonial perspective (as captured by the Casta painters on display in the Museum) then a classification as mestizo was but a single generational moment or have you forgotten castizo/a? I wonder what you would make of morisco/a, claim a North African ancestry? The measure was strictly the degree of "purity" of an individual at but a single moment. That you do not wish to simply confess that you are doing little more than adopting an ideological (with all the cant such entails) rather than an historical stance is fine by me but when such a turn is but repackaged racism you will be challenged.
 
Anyway, even the simplest of art lovers would recognize your speciousness:
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 02 Feb 2011 at 23:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 22:21
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Your racist insecurities are getting to you Penguin since modern usage and not the grand illustrated tables from the 18th century on display at the Museo Nacional de Antropologia in Mexico prevail.


Don't recall ignorance to justify yourself.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


If you choose the old colonial perspective (as captured by the Casta painters on display in the Museum) then a classification as mestizo was but a single generational moment or have you forgotten castizo/a? I wonder what you would make of morisco/a, claim a North African ancestry? The measure was strictly the degree of "purity" of an individual at but a single moment. That you do not wish to simply confess that you are doing little more than adopting an ideological (with all the cant such entails) rather than an historical stance is fine by me but when such a turn is but repackaged racism you will be challenged. 


Baloney, just more blah blah blah...

The RAE definition that you recalled said it very clearly:

mestizo, za.

(Del lat. tardío mixticĭus, mixto, mezclado).

1. adj. Dicho de una persona: Nacida de padre y madre de raza diferente, en especial de hombre blanco e india, o de indio y mujer blanca. U. t. c. s.



The term Mestizo (Meti, Half blood in other languages) is applied to mixtures between Amerindians and European, mainly.

We, Mestizos, are not guilty that Black Caribbeans want to be called Morenos (when they aren't), and Mestizos (which they aren't either) instead of Negros y Mulatos. They are the one "pretending", not us.

Peukayal


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2011 at 23:46
You do know how to use the dictionary don't you P and its order for listing meanings, the best first and the others following. But hey hasn't deja vu hit you by now and memory of a much older thread:
 

Are the Black Native Americans Native?

 
 
 
 
That you insist in misinterpreting the colonial castas and worse refuse to even recognize how there is more truth in contemporary colloquial usage free of your bias (e.g. mi morenita as endearment), then you are hopeless. It is even obvious you did not read the last link cited. Technically, unless your direct parentage is not a "white" father and an "Amerind" mother you are not a mestizo. Any other claim places you in the world of the ideological and not the genetically historical! Want to try for castizo?
 
Don't think it has not been noted that you've given up your Cuban schtick to go off on this tangent after it was throroughly rebutted.


Edited by drgonzaga - 02 Feb 2011 at 23:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2011 at 02:24
You are not going to take from us the term Mestizo, just to assign it to any mixture.
And yes, technically, most Chileans like myself aren't first generation mestizos. We are closer to castizos, indeed. So what. We have European and Amerindians ancestors.

Of course Black Native Americans aren't Native. They are Sambos.

3. adj. Am. Dicho de una persona: Hijo de negro e india, o al contrario. U. t. c. s.

With respect to racism, remember that this pyramid was impossed by your own kind in the New World. If it were for us, we wouldn't have admitted Europeans or Africans in our ancestral lands. But this is already done. However, never forget that racism came with the  Galicians to the New World.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2011 at 04:39
Your little picture is a deliberate misinterpretation of what was meant by casta in a colonial context. Any review of the historical literature would reveal such and really one need not go through the motions of presenting the textual evidence (besides you would simply just ignore it because it troubles your warped weltanschauung) given that your repeated flippancies can just be addressed by saying bunkum!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2011 at 12:33
I am not interested in was "was meant" by casta. I am interesting in not confussing pears with apples.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2011 at 16:04
You couldn't tell the difference betwen a qumquat and a pomegranate! Now stick to topic and tell us more about Cuban "adventurism" in Africa. Or are you still so miffed with Fidel and his rejection of Allende as a "limousine" socialist that you are intent on vendetta.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2011 at 20:48
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

You couldn't tell the difference betwen a qumquat and a pomegranate!


Maybe, but I can tell the difference between a pear and an apple, and also the difference between mestizo and mulato. That was the point.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Now stick to topic and tell us more about Cuban "adventurism" in Africa. Or are you still so miffed with Fidel and his rejection of Allende as a "limousine" socialist that you are intent on vendetta.


Glad you came back to topic. A topic you derailed.

OK, back to topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2011 at 21:37
See response in Taino thread where as expected you bring all back to your tired ideology on the great cosmic qumquat!
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