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Castro's military adventures in Africa

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2011 at 22:06
Irrelevant to this thread.
As usual, your smoke curtain didn't work.
If you want to talk about the topic, do it, Caramba!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2011 at 22:39
What is irrelevant is your refusal to confront the the two posts that answered your suspicious inquiry
towit:
 
Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 16:25
Get serious Penguin! The farce of Castro (in your terminology the quintessential gallego) aiding the "motherland" is so much hooey as to be pathetic. In the realm of geo-politics the assistance extended to the government of Angola was an act of realpolitik in the grand manner and fitting quite well into the roils of the Cuban-Soviet alliance of the 1980s. Besides, Brazil did support Dos Santos and the MPLA as the legitimate government of Angola throughout, besides many Angolans sought refuge from the violence in their country in Brazil! Nor should you forget that in the 1980s, Brazil was emerging from over 20 years of military rule (from the deposition of Goulart onwards) and had its own internal problems to resolve.
 
Posted: Yesterday at 16:36
PS: As for Cuba and Africa in the last quarter of the 20th century, what is so pernicious in accepting the fact that Cuba not only had a foreign policy but was committed to the revolutionary ethos of "nation building" upon socialist premises. Long before Angola, Cuban foreign policy established strong links with Ahmed Ben Bella in Algeria in 1962 that survived the demise of that "revolutionary". If any comments need be made that underscore the startling it is a simple one: The remarkable capacity of a small nation such as Cuba to elaborate a high-international profile that in no way can be classified as "adventurism" since it has not only been consistent but also an integral part of its diplomacy. We are not discussing the Kims of Korea here!
 
Your constant chatter over "race" and Africa has been tiresome and it is you who can not address a single subject without talking about Race. Get over it...your views on it as are warped as the links you try to serve at your diner. 
 
Or do you not remember writing this absurdity:
 
Cuba is a country very influenced by Africa, given its population is black in a large degree, more than any other country of Latin America with the exception of Dominican Republic.
 
Imagine the resulting laughter had anyone written the following analogy adhering to your train of thought:
 
Obama is a president very influenced by Africa, given his parentage is black to a large degree, more than any other president and certainly most people in the United States.


Edited by drgonzaga - 03 Feb 2011 at 22:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2011 at 01:41
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Your constant chatter over "race" and Africa has been tiresome and it is you who can not address a single subject without talking about Race. Get over it...your views on it as are warped as the links you try to serve at your diner.


So, you accept then that a Mulato is not the same than a Mestizo? If so, why to discuss about race? I didn't start it, you did.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Or do you not remember writing this absurdity:
 
Cuba is a country very influenced by Africa, given its population is black in a large degree, more than any other country of Latin America with the exception of Dominican Republic.


As usual, you don't have a method of thinking.

(1) Cuba is a country very influenced by Africa

Truly is. What else is Santeria with the cult of the Orishas, particularly Yemaya?
Never heared Celia Cruz, song Yemaya?
Didn't you know that as late as the end of the 19th century Spain was still bringing African slaves to the island? Don't you know that only DR is more African than Cuba in the Hispanic world?
Who are you trying to fool.

(2) given its population is black in a large degree

(Official 2002 Cuba Census)
Race Total Men Women  % Of Total
White 7,271,926 3,618,349 3,653,577 65.05%
Black 1,126,894 593,876 533,018 10.08%
Mulatto 2,658,675 1,385,008 1,393,915 23.84%
Asian 112,268 56,098 56,170 1.02%












At least 1 in 3 Cubans is Black or Mulatto. Of course, the "white" part is self-identification.

(3) more than any other country of Latin America with the exception of Dominican Republic


Compare Cuba with the rest of Latin American countries in African population.

Country↓ Population[32]↓


Mulattos↓ Blacks↓ Creoles &
Garifunas↓

 Argentina 40,134,425


0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
 Bolivia 10,907,778


2.0% 0.0% 0.0%









 Chile 17,063,000


0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
 Colombia 45,393,050


19.0% 1.9% 0.0%
 Costa Rica 4,253,897


0.0% 0.0% 2.0%
 Cuba 11,236,444


51.0% 11.0% 0.0%
 Dominican Republic 8,562,541


75.0% 7.7% 2.3%
 Ecuador 13,625,000


5.0% 5.0% 0.0%
 El Salvador 6,134,000


0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
 Guatemala 13,276,517


0.0% 0.0% 0.2%
 Honduras 7,810,848


1.7% 0.0% 3.3%
 Mexico[33] 111,211,789


0.5% 0.0% 0.0%
 Nicaragua 5,891,199


0.0% 0.0% 0.6%
 Panama 3,322,576


27.0% 5.0% 14.0%
 Paraguay 6,349,000


3.5% 0.0% 0.0%
 Peru 29,461,933


9.7% 0.0% 0.0%
 Puerto Rico 3,967,179


10.0% 15.0% 0.0%
 Uruguay 3,494,382


4.0% 0.0% 0.0%
 Venezuela 26,814,843


37.7% 2.8% 0.0%

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2011 at 03:56
How does one put something politely when confronted by the truly ignorant? Does one smile and say oh well that is just your opinion or does one take time to ponder a response so as to convince the wayward that their conclusions are both awkward and erroneous? The former might perhaps be protocol while sipping mate upon one's polo pony at el country club, and the latter might suffice in a family setting where the scion of the estate has just committed a serious gaffe in the presence of papa. None apply here and the best response is both blunt and simple: Why don't you just shut your mouth you racist ass!
 
That you are both misusing and altering data is beneath contempt and adds just another charge to the indictment but by now all are familiar with your modus operandi so further elucidation is hardly necessary however since you have claimed "census" figures let all who care consult here:
 
 
By the way you are also a bit weak in understanding the history of the Sonora Matancera, which existed long before anyone had heard of Celia Cruz as well as the traditional chant Yemaya which along with Babalu Aye is an anonymous folk composition. Desi Arnaz popularized this latter song in the 1940s, I guess that must have made him a "Black". Anyway your fixation on "who's black" has now reached psychopathic proportions.


Edited by drgonzaga - 04 Feb 2011 at 04:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2011 at 12:12
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

How does one put something politely when confronted by the truly ignorant? Does one smile and say oh well that is just your opinion or does one take time to ponder a response so as to convince the wayward that their conclusions are both awkward and erroneous?


Just smile. That's what I do with you LOL

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


None apply here and the best response is both blunt and simple: Why don't you just shut your mouth you racist ass!


So, now calling mulatos by theirs name is racist? Don't be silly, doctor. Mulato only means Black+White mixture. Changing names won't chance a thing.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


That you are both misusing and altering data is beneath contempt and adds just another charge to the indictment but by now all are familiar with your modus operandi so further elucidation is hardly necessary however since you have claimed "census" figures let all who care consult here:


What modus operandi? What upsets you? The fact is Cuba is higly African, more than any other Ibero-American country with the exception of DR.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


By the way you are also a bit weak in understanding the history of the Sonora Matancera, which existed long before anyone had heard of Celia Cruz as well as the traditional chant Yemaya which along with Babalu Aye is an anonymous folk composition. Desi Arnaz popularized this latter song in the 1940s, I guess that must have made him a "Black". Anyway your fixation on "who's black" has now reached psychopathic proportions.


Yemaya and Babalu Aye, both from Santeria, are proof African culture was preserved in Cuba, unlike elsewhere in the Americas.
Who is black? Well, people that has mainly African ancestry. What's your problem with that, doc?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2011 at 15:30
For one thing just as Santeria, Vodun and Candomble can not be identified as "African" because they are strictly a phenomenon of the Americas and can only be understood within the natural American processes of cultural synchretism and folk practice, so too with the idiocies that assert such nonsense as "mulato nation" and other such crap. You have repeatedly gone out of your way not  only to abuse science but invert terminology for what can only be described as an ideological fixation of purely fascist proportions.
 
Of course in your twaddle you do not even recognize the stupidity of stating: Who is black? Well, people that has mainly African ancestry.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2011 at 15:37
You have a very convoluted mind, doc.
If you don't want to speak about black and whites when talking about humans, let's talk about greens. Light green came from Europe and dark green from Africa.
It is fine now?

Santeria, Voodoo and Candomble are folk religions from Nigeria, doc. How come you don't that.

And not all Cubans are mulato, of course, but the country is mainly a mixture of black and white. Why do you deny that?


Edited by pinguin - 04 Feb 2011 at 15:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2011 at 15:51
No, because you are still talking as though the distinction matters. It has some relevance to medical practice, but you're not talking about the relative prevalence of sickle cell anaemia, are you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2011 at 15:57
It's how you employ the terms P brain and the settings you give them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2011 at 16:45
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

No, because you are still talking as though the distinction matters. It has some relevance to medical practice, but you're not talking about the relative prevalence of sickle cell anaemia, are you?


It matters. What you don't grasp is the existence of a mestizo identity. That is: the identity of the people who is the result of the mixture between European settlers and Amerindians.

What your doctor is trying to do is to deny those historical identities, mixing everything, and altering the national identities of the countries of the region.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2011 at 18:56
Penguin, perhaps you should become more familiar with the ambiance of the Mexican cantina and while downing a few tequilas why not endear yourself to the other patrons by calling them mestizos. Such would probably eliminate quite rapidly the current chore of furthering your education.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2011 at 23:01
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Penguin, perhaps you should become more familiar with the ambiance of the Mexican cantina and while downing a few tequilas why not endear yourself to the other patrons by calling them mestizos. Such would probably eliminate quite rapidly the current chore of furthering your education.


I wouldn't call them "mestizos" but buddies. Wink Same people, same experiences. Come on, I feeled closed to the Meti and Indigenous peoples of Canada as well.
Yes, doctor, "blood pulls" (La sangre tira; Gallician saying).
And I bet in your case you would feel at home at a voodoo ritual, killing some chickens and praying to the Orishas.
Each crazy with its own topic (Cada loco con su tema; Another Gallician saying)



Edited by pinguin - 04 Feb 2011 at 23:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 01:28
After three pages of Dr. Trolling distracting the attention. Let's go back to the topic.

Pictures of Cuban planes during the Angola's war







Source:
http://www.urrib2000.narod.ru/EqMiG23aa.html









Edited by pinguin - 05 Feb 2011 at 13:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 12:48
Ah, another session of pillage and plunder of pretty pictures from the Internet is at hand. What can one do except sigh that Pinochet missed one!
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 05 Feb 2011 at 12:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 13:32
It would be more interesting to comment the history of Cuban fight against South Africa.

This is the map of the so called "South African Border War"




Date:     1966–1989
Location:     Southern Africa - Namibia and Angola
Result :    Withdrawal of foreign forces (Cuban, South African) from Angola, Namibian independence from South African rule and aggravated Angolan Civil War.

Belligerents
 Angola
 Cuba
Flag of South-West Africa Peoples Organisation.svg SWAPO
Zambia Republic of Zambia
ANC UmkhontoweSizwe.gif Umkhonto we Sizwe
Supported by:
 Soviet Union
 South Africa
Flag of Unita.jpg UNITA
Supported by:
 United States

So Cuba clashed directly with Appartheid's South Africa (supported obviously and as usual by the U.S.A.)




Edited by pinguin - 05 Feb 2011 at 13:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 13:44


And this map shows the two foreign countries fighting in Angola: Cuba versus South Africa.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 14:32
Nelson Mandela comments on Castro and the visits of Mandela to Cuba and of Castro to South Africa.
Castro helped in the destruction of Appartheid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSx4v3EcCfI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8nfQX5znuY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tNF0YkRQjM


Edited by pinguin - 05 Feb 2011 at 15:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 18:15
That's a beginning but obviously you can not resist adding the usual tripe about evil "Tio Sam", while steadily ignoring the history behind the Umbundu and the Huambo/Bie plateau within the history of Angola itself. Refresh yourself on the actual history of Angola even within the narrow parameters of 1840 to 1920 before commencing your pontifications.

Edited by drgonzaga - 06 Feb 2011 at 05:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2011 at 22:03
I have just shown reports and some info, without making comment, or emiting any judgement. I am not taking sides, either.

Calm down, doctor, just calm down. Take your pills and come back. Your contributions are very welcome. Your turn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2011 at 05:23
Well why don't you begin by explaining how Nova Lisboa (now Huambo) was not established until 1912 and that Portuguese political control over the Ovimbundu (Bailundo Chiefdom) actually dates from the early years of the 20th century and the construction of the Benguela Railway.  Why we could even go into the hostility of the Protestant missionaries to the Catholic establishment and their specific exploitation of Ovimbundu ethnicity for their proselytizing activities--Carch would love that. The situation was far more than just another episode in the Cold War and you can gain an inkling of that by the questionable entries in Wiki concerning the Southern Mbundu peoples that even make the editors nervous: read it and guess as to why-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovimbundu

Edited by drgonzaga - 06 Feb 2011 at 05:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2011 at 12:18
Certainly, doctor. The history is a lot more complex. However, what calls my attention about this Cuban adventure is the following. For the first time ever, a Latin American country went to fight overseas, as if it were a "superpower".
Yes, it was financed by the Soviet Union, of course, but what motivated Castro to have imperial dreams? Was the experience of the Bay of Pigs what pushed him into this adventure as a revenge? Was pure Castro's megalomany? Was a sincere expresion of communist "fellowship"?

Your oppinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2011 at 18:16
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Certainly, doctor. The history is a lot more complex. However, what calls my attention about this Cuban adventure is the following. For the first time ever, a Latin American country went to fight overseas, as if it were a "superpower".
Yes, it was financed by the Soviet Union, of course, but what motivated Castro to have imperial dreams? Was the experience of the Bay of Pigs what pushed him into this adventure as a revenge? Was pure Castro's megalomany? Was a sincere expresion of communist "fellowship"?

Your oppinion.
 
That's not true. That honor belongs to Mexico in the Pacific and Brazil in the Mediterranean and the setting is World War II:
 
 
for Brazil see the summation in Wiki...
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 06 Feb 2011 at 18:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2011 at 21:27
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Certainly, doctor. The history is a lot more complex. However, what calls my attention about this Cuban adventure is the following. For the first time ever, a Latin American country went to fight overseas, as if it were a "superpower".
Yes, it was financed by the Soviet Union, of course, but what motivated Castro to have imperial dreams? Was the experience of the Bay of Pigs what pushed him into this adventure as a revenge? Was pure Castro's megalomany? Was a sincere expresion of communist "fellowship"?

Your oppinion.


When the USSR still had global aspirations, the availability of Cuba's manpower as a proxy was too good to pass up.  That is how to fight a war on the cheap, if you want to do it. 

For the Cubans it was additional "subsidy diplomacy."  They could use the money/exchange; whatever.

How could Castro get revenge on the US by fighting a war in Angola?  Cuba fought the war, not us...and certainly not the Russians.

Communist fellowship......don't think so.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2011 at 22:41
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

....
How could Castro get revenge on the US by fighting a war in Angola?  Cuba fought the war, not us...and certainly not the Russians.

Communist fellowship......don't think so.


Well, the U.S., as usual, was behing Appartheid South Africa. The war on Angola was against the interests of Uncle Sam.

And yes, Cuba "worked for" the Soviet Union. However, it was a very entusiastic "employee" that more than once had to be stopped by the Soviet Union itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2011 at 22:46
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
That's not true. That honor belongs to Mexico in the Pacific and Brazil in the Mediterranean and the setting is World War II:
 
 
for Brazil see the summation in Wiki...
 


Yes, I know Brazil and Mexico participated in WW II. There is nothing new there. But I wouldn't compare that participation at all with a "war of conquest" overseas. Rather, it was just a matter of sending troops and armies to be managed in the collective war effort of the allies. In that sense, Latin American troops have participated in many European wars. They were during the Spanish Civil War, but also during the Napoleonic invasion of Spain. Latinos fought for the allies in Europe and also for the Axis. But in none of those cases the expedition forces had autonomy as in the case
of Angola.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2011 at 22:55
It is interesting that many presuppose all was a clean slate in Angola and this matter with Savimbi was a novelty provoking a Cuban "intervention". For goodness sakes, shall I utter a single name and get this charade to end: Holden Roberto. The fact that this individual not only "had tea" with Kennedy in April of 1961 (the month and year ring a bell?) but was also on the US payroll as well as that of Israel should make all stop with the notion that Cuba was acting as a Soviet client in the turmoil that was the Congo valley in the 1960s. That all resumed in 1976 when the Portuguese state itself decided it was getting out of the "Overseas Portugal" business should underscore the why's behind Cuba's support of Neto rather than the discredited Roberto. A simplification, yes, but one that emphasizes that the scenario was well in place long before SWAPO and the activities of the South Africa state. Hey, even Mao backed the wrong horse in this race!
 
Here's a "whiff from the past" that should give all pause:
 
Cuba en Africa/Cuba in Africa [Estudios Cubanos, 1980]
 
 
Just beware of the typos...
 
Rather than a new post, I shall add brief comments to statement made by out resident political esperpentista, the P:
 
Well, the U.S., as usual, was behing Appartheid South Africa. The war on Angola was against the interests of Uncle Sam.

But I wouldn't compare that participation
(Mexico and Brazil in WWII) at all with a "war of conquest" overseas
 
And yes, Cuba "worked for" the Soviet Union. However, it was a very entusiastic "employee"
 
But in none of those cases the expedition forces had autonomy as in the case of Angola.

What can one say about the logic provoking such disconnected as well as contradictory cavils other than bunkum! 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 07 Feb 2011 at 03:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 2011 at 23:26
Contradictions. Look who is talking, doc.
To make you to make a clear statement about any topic is an achievement.
As usual, you go for the branches instead to attack the main topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2011 at 03:16
A tree without branches is not a tree at all but simply a dead log fit only for kindling. But your log is so rotted as to not even serve for such in the sparking of an interesting historical conversation. That bit about Cuba being involved in a "war of conquest overseas" is but another sign of the rot! You know even less about Angola than you do of Cuba as displayed here as well as elsewhere. If anything the Cubans have been consistent in both policy and execution throughout all of Southern Africa since 1961 vis a vis the liberation movements and guess what they were right at each instant(not the Russians, not the Chinese, and most definitely not the US--which is the source of the nonsense of the Cuban's being Soviet puppets) besides Angola from Frelimo, to SWAPO, and even as concerns the ANC.  None of these existing governments call them "interventionists", I wonder why?

Edited by drgonzaga - 07 Feb 2011 at 03:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2011 at 16:28
None calls them "interventionists" simply because that is a term forbidden among communist comrades. I bet you knew that already, comrade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2011 at 00:25
Ah, the truth comes out Nelson Mandela is a communist! So too his wife, probably, the widow of Samora Michel. Anyway, it just sounds like little more than sour grapes (if not downright jealousy) given the fact that Chile has only five embassies in all of Africa while the Cubans have 31!
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