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Topic ClosedChinese admit Erlitou is not Xia

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Chinese admit Erlitou is not Xia
    Posted: 09 Jun 2014 at 07:36
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2014 at 07:38
It's official.

http://books.google.com/books?id=oX6gs6TAZdEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Archaeology+of+China:+From+the+Late+Paleolithic+to+the+Early+Bronze+Age&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yAUnU4bZD9HvoAT594HgBA&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=xia&f=false

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We do not correlate Erlitou with the Xia dynasty; in this way, we acknowledge the controversial character regarding Erlitou's cultural identity.


If Chinese (the Shang) had to conquer the Xia they would have needed to move their capital all the way into Rong and Di territory. Xia was and always will be a myth constructed by the Zhou whom were descendants of Rong and Di peoples.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2014 at 07:46
 
Rolling eyesYOU'VE COMPLETELY MISREPRESENTED WHAT THE REFERENCE SAYS, AGAIN!
 
 
All it really says is that Erlitou is not XIA, they're two different entities.
 
Quote

BLACKS IN ANCIENT CHINA by Clyde Winters

( < id=cit-affiliation- =cit-inplace method=post ="">Professor of Education, Anthropology and Linguistics, Uthman dan Fodio Institute

< =cit-inplace method=post =""> < id=cit-int- =cit-inplace method=post ="">Education - Archaeogenetics - Anthropology - Linguistics )

In accordance with the oral traditions of China, the founders of Chinese civilization were Huangdi and Fu Xi. These legendary rulers like Dai Hao, were all buried in zhiu (burial mounds). The presence of this mound culture in China supports the traditions of burial of elects in mound tombs. 

The skeletal remains from southern China are predominately negroid. (Chang 1964, p.370) The people practiced single burials.

In northern China the blacks founded many civilizations. The three major empires of China were the Xia Dynasty (c.2205-1766 B.C), Shang/ Yin Dynasty (c.1700-1050 B.C) and the Zhou Dynasty. The Zhou dynasty was the first dynasty founded by the Mongoloid people in China called Hua (Who-aa). 

The founders of Xia and Shang came from the Fertile African Crescent by way of Iran. According to Chinese legends the first man Pan Gu, used a hammer 18,000 years ago to make man. 



Edited by toyomotor - 09 Jun 2014 at 07:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2014 at 19:15
The only misrepresentation is your claim of African Chinese dynasties.  The section states the controversial character of Erlitou is due to people acknowledging it as Xia while searching for Xia.  Xia is an exercise of imagination.  The author and her team aren't prohibiting past people claim their own dynasty Xia, but as it stands the Zhou people's accounts don't amount to evidence.

The author even speaks of Sarah Allan whose work revealed Zhou's wayward approach in inventing political identity by using the precursor of Shang's religious mythos.  It appeared to be a tradition in the past.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/25211710?uid=3739560&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104278221413

When the Zhou invented Xia it was basically to claim they were the precursor of the Shang.  It was for the sake of their identity which would have otherwise been foreign altogether.


Edited by literaryClarity - 09 Jun 2014 at 20:51
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2014 at 19:35
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 
Rolling eyesYOU'VE COMPLETELY MISREPRESENTED WHAT THE REFERENCE SAYS, AGAIN!
 
 
All it really says is that Erlitou is not XIA, they're two different entities.
 
Quote

BLACKS IN ANCIENT CHINA by Clyde Winters

( < id=cit-affiliation- =cit-inplace method=post ="">Professor of Education, Anthropology and Linguistics, Uthman dan Fodio Institute

< =cit-inplace method=post =""> < id=cit-int- =cit-inplace method=post ="">Education - Archaeogenetics - Anthropology - Linguistics )

In accordance with the oral traditions of China, the founders of Chinese civilization were Huangdi and Fu Xi. These legendary rulers like Dai Hao, were all buried in zhiu (burial mounds). The presence of this mound culture in China supports the traditions of burial of elects in mound tombs. 

The skeletal remains from southern China are predominately negroid. (Chang 1964, p.370) The people practiced single burials.

In northern China the blacks founded many civilizations. The three major empires of China were the Xia Dynasty (c.2205-1766 B.C), Shang/ Yin Dynasty (c.1700-1050 B.C) and the Zhou Dynasty. The Zhou dynasty was the first dynasty founded by the Mongoloid people in China called Hua (Who-aa). 

The founders of Xia and Shang came from the Fertile African Crescent by way of Iran. According to Chinese legends the first man Pan Gu, used a hammer 18,000 years ago to make man. 


See what I mean. He just distorts the sources. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2014 at 19:59
easy772, when you say I distort the source do you mean to agree that there actually is a Xia and that it's roots are African because that's what it sounds like.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 03:06
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:



Blacks in Ancient China by Clyde Winters


Please, Toyomotor. Clyde Winters is an idiot. An Afrocentric fanatic so ignorant I had the pleasure to put in evidence once in a Forum. He didn't know West Africans lacked writing up to the Middle Ages, and some even up to the 19th century! Winters' ideas are just a pile of BS.

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 04:19
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:



Blacks in Ancient China by Clyde Winters


Please, Toyomotor. Clyde Winters is an idiot. An Afrocentric fanatic so ignorant I had the pleasure to put in evidence once in a Forum. He didn't know West Africans lacked writing up to the Middle Ages, and some even up to the 19th century! Winters' ideas are just a pile of BS.

 
 
He may well be an idiot. I know that some of his claims have been refuted by the scientific community, but I also know that many in the scientific community agree with this claim.
 
It makes sense to me that people from the Out of Africa Coastal Migration made there way to China, while others travelled through India to Northern China. I haven't found anything to rebut this so far.
 
His views may also coincide with findings that the people in Southern China were different to the Northern Chinese, and spoke different languages.
 
Don't forget that these migrations didn't happen overnight, and over the millenia of their migrations, they probably developed a little differently.
 
If you have a look Feathers, there are quite a number of references to Black Chinese, from a number of different sources. I'll find some more and post them.Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 04:25
I could bet those "Blacks" are Australoids, though, and not the ancestral Bantus of Winters.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 04:33
Easy 772 wrote:
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See what I mean. He just distorts the sources. 
 
Either he is as I suggest, misquoting sources, or you, me and others are not understanding what he's trying to convey.
 
To take his next post for example, he questions if you're saying that the Xia descended from Africans.
 
Well, we all do originally, so why is it so hard to accept that the Chinese also have African ancestry?
 
I'm not saying that the Xia were the first people in China, far from it, but the old idea that there were a number of origins for mankind has fallen by the wayside, including the theory that all Chinese descended from Peking Man.
 
Time for Literary Clarity to reassess his position on Xianzhou I think.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 04:40
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I could bet those "Blacks" are Australoids, though, and not the ancestral Bantus of Winters.
 
Mate, I have no idea if they were Bantus or Swahili. The idea is that they were African, I suppose from Central Northern Africa, but I don't know if their precise origin has been pin pointed yet.
 
I think it's obvious that some of them later became what is now known as Austronesian, and others, the Australian Aborigines for example, Australoid. (Did I get them right this time?), and still others became Amerindians and so on.
 
The OP, imo, has been misrepresented by Literary Clarity, or at least misunderstood, because it doesn't rule out the existence of the Xia, just that they were not the same people as Erlitou.
 
He needs to go back and reread the source.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 04:56
Actually the studies point opposite to what toyomotor is saying.  The more gracile skulls developed in the south while the northern skulls were more robust leading one to observe that the paleolithic situation in China was mostly C and "Australoid" while in the neolithic period the O types with their advanced agriculture began to produce more gracile populations with less robust skulls (due to less masticatory pressures exerted on the skull).

Study by Wu, Liu, Bae titled, Craniofacial Variation Between Southern and Northern Neolithic and Modern Chinese
http://www.anthropology.hawaii.edu/people/faculty/bae/pdfs/2012-wu-et-al-ijo.pdf
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Introduction

The Holocene is the primary epoch for the formation, differentiation and migratory patterning of Modern human populations throughout the world. Many changes in Homo sapiens’ lifestyle, culture, technology, behaviour and economic patterning occurred. Analysis of Holocene human remains is very important to understand the development of Modern human populations and how this development was influenced by environmental and/or cultural processes. Research conducted on Holocene human remains from different spatio-temporal contexts indicates that the physical characters of Modern humans are still changing (Henneberg, 1988). For instance, 70% of the cranial features of northern populations from Chile show distinct temporal changes (Rothhammer et al., 1982). In certain American populations from the mid-19th century to the 1970s the cranium became more dolichocephalic, and the face became narrower and higher (Jantz & Jantz, 2000). Studies of northeast African Nubian populations show that cranial robustness decreased, and head shape became more brachycephalic, while tooth and mandible size decreased (Carlson, 1976; Carlson & Van Gerven, 1977).


Conclusion

The results of this study indicate that significant craniofacial variation exists between southern and northern Neolithic and Modern Chinese. For example, northern Chinese have more robust crania than southern ones. Principal component analyses show that the Neolithic-North is distinguished from the Neolithic-South in having a tall face, narrow nose and high eyes, while the Modern-North separate from the Modern-South in having a tall, broad face and high nose. Bivariate plots of selected measures indicate the northern Chinese are different from the southern Chinese on cranial length, upper facial height and nasal height. The Neolithic Chinese between the Qinling Mountain range and the Yangtze River are mixed with the North and South. Statistically significant craniometrical differences exist between the Neolithic age and Modern day groups, and between the northern and southern Chinese. Temporal variation is also present. For instance, size decreased through time. However, some degree of morphological similarity exists between North and South China, and also between successive time periods. In the Neolithic sample the separation is clearer between the northern and southern samples than with the Modern arrays. During the Neolithic, the Qinling Mountain Range and the Yangtze River served as a geographic boundary between North and South China. Environmental and cultural factors clearly played important roles in the development of Modern Chinese cranial morphologies.


Study by Wu, Liu, Zhu titled, Craniofacial morphological microevolution of Holocene populations in northern China
http://www.anthropology.hawaii.edu/people/faculty/bae/pdfs/2007-wu-microevolution.pdf
Quote
3.2 Reasons for the cranial morphological micro-evolution in Holocene populations
There are two primary reasons which may cause the variation in physical characters among Holocene human populations. One is the human migration and admixture, and the other is that the differences are controlled by human evolution. Based on the study of Holocene hu-man skeletons from China, the populations are all classi-fied as Mongoloids, except for the groups from the Xin-jiang region.


When they say Mongoloid, it is usually speaking of the people outside of Mongolia which is why I often find these studies a little backwards to be honest.  It's isn't until you reach Mongolia that you actually find true Mongoloids.  Anyway this study has a few photos and figures to illustrate the higher robustness of the "northern Mongoloid" skull.

The studies did not go into discussion about skintone but perhaps this may help.



The amount of protection for the skin to evolve into dark or vice versa the amount of non-protection for the skin to evolve into light is a function of the amount of sunlight penetration there is on the bareskin.  The higher lattitudes coincide with the lesser amount of sunlight and it is where lighter skin tones evolve.  However there is also the issue of cloud cover.  Since southern China is a vast landscape of hills and forests there was ample shade as well as cloud cover in all times of the year in contrast to the northern plains which didn't have as much cloud cover.  So even though the entire area of China is situated to be subtropical/temperate it is actually the south which would necessarily evolve lighter skin tones as well as more gracile skull shapes.




The difference between the 2 tribes is only one is in Mongolia and the other one is in Austrailia.  And one of them has significantly more historical admixtures with populations outside leading to sacrifice of original diversity and input of new genetic variations.


Edited by literaryClarity - 10 Jun 2014 at 10:36
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 05:14
Easy 772:
LC's latest contribution relies on skull morphology, with a reference to DNA thrown in.
 
It's obviously been lifted from someone elses work, but he supplies no attribution-plagiarism!
 
Skull morphology is  not, imo, a totally accurate methodology for this topic. He doesn't compare the Erlitou and the Xia, and so the post is irrelevant.
 
He's clutching at straws to try to firm up his position, but he's failing.
 
See below:-
 
 

 

Erlitou Site


City site of the Late Xia Dynasty
Location: Yanshi, Henan Province
Period: 1900-1500 BC
Excavated from 1959 to the present
Significance: The Erlitou Culture is named after the site. It has been preliminarily confirmed as the capital of the Late Xia Dynasty.
Introduction
The Erlitou Site is the city ruins of the late Xia Dynasty with an area of about 3 square kilometers. Remains such as palace, residential area, pottery and bronze workshops, and tombs were excavated in the site. Quite a few cultural relics of stone, pottery, jade ware, and bronze were unearthed here, among which the Jue is so far the earliest bronze vessel excavated in China. The Erlitou Culture is named after the site. 
Turquoise-inlaid bronze plaque with animal mask: ornament (left-up, height 14.4 cm); Pottery pot in the shape of duck: water vessel or wine vessel (left-bottom, height 10 cm); Bronze Jue (three-legged vessel with handle and open spout): wine vessel (right-bottom, height 22.5 cm)
Erlitou Culture
Erlitou Culture of the central plains of North China was the first state-level society in China, and its remains are taken to be correlates of the Xia Dynasty. Remains of palatial buildings, royal tombs, and paved roads were uncovered, leading to hypotheses that the site represents a Xia capital.
The society employed advanced bronze technology. The earliest urbanization in Bronze Age in China emerged during the Erlitou Culture. Some 38 calibrated radiocarbon dates derived from Erlitou Site in Henan indicate that this culture may have flourished during a period between 1900 and 1500 BC. Erlitou is the largest among all its contemporary sites in China, and sites containing the Erlitou material assemblages have been found over a very broad region mainly including Henan, southern Shanxi, Eastern Shaanxi, and Hubei.
Erlitou was characterized by a centralized and internally specialized government, indicated by a great concentration of palatial foundations and various craft workshops in an urban center (Erlitou), and rapid cultural expansion over a large region.
Some people may argue that some of these characteristics can be observed in the Longshan Culture. But they did not occur altogether. Erlitou manifested a qualitative social change from the Longshan Culture, while the Erligang Culture represented a quantitative change from the Erlitou.
 


Edited by toyomotor - 10 Jun 2014 at 05:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 05:34
I put the quotes in quotes and provided the link.  There's no plagarism. I actually don't subscribe to the skull nonsense unless it actually involves the populations involved, Australoid and Mongoloid.  In my post I provide photo reference to each.  I am correct in saying there was no Australoid in China since Australoid is by definition a human population in Australia.


Edited by literaryClarity - 10 Jun 2014 at 05:36
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 06:09
I agree with Pinguin, Clyde Winters is as far as I'm concerned, a total idiot and yet he has a lot of followers.  He's talking about out of Africa and yet people concerned with his views think people such as the Cumans and others were significantly different from the bunch that arrived out of Africa through a different route than the coastal migrations.  Clyde Winters needs to familiarize himself with the Holocene and Neolithic changes to the human diet and social behaviors.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 06:12
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

I put the quotes in quotes and provided the link.  There's no plagarism. I actually don't subscribe to the skull nonsense unless it actually involves the populations involved, Australoid and Mongoloid.  In my post I provide photo reference to each.  I am correct in saying there was no Australoid in China since Australoid is by definition a human population in Australia.
Note the difference in skin colour in the four photographs, particularly the one at top left.
 
Re the Skull morphology, it's not all junk, it has applications in some cases.
 
No, no-one has said there were Australoids in China, but there were Austronesians, afaik, in the coastal regions.
 
PS I note that you've been in and edited the original post, which did not have the photographs or the source links.
 
You are a fraud.


Edited by toyomotor - 10 Jun 2014 at 09:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 06:19
I've been in and out editting my grammar.  I'm particular because I don't want people thinking I speak some foreign language and be excused from understanding what I said. And for your information I was pointing out to Pinguin that he said there ought to have been Australoids in southern China instead of Bantus.  My point was he patterned an afterthought because you've given some incorrect information about the extent of African expansion.  Africans don't just remain as Africans after they they've had to go through hell to get to China.  Neither do Austrailians when they reach out from Austrailia.  And for the last time Austronesians were not in China unless you are talking about when they split from Tibeto-Burmans 8500 YBP.  You cannot detect a trace of their substratum or adstratum, only their cultural root words in Tibeto-Burman.  If you've read Sagart's paper "The Expansion of Setaria Farmers In East Asia" you'd know that.


Edited by literaryClarity - 10 Jun 2014 at 06:30
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 07:16
  1. http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp132_anyang.pdf
  2. http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp185_silk_road.pdf
  3. http://forwhattheywereweare.wordpress.com/2013/07/17/homo-sapiens-from-central-china-dated-to-81-101-ka-bp/

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Blacks in China and the Invasion of the Mongols

http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/they-all-look-like-all-them/11714-blacks-china-invasion-mongols.html

The skeletal remains from Southern China are predominately Negroid. The people of that era practiced single burials which is an African ritual. In northern China Blacks founded many civilizations. The three major empires of China were the Xia Dynasty (c.2205-1766 BC), Shang Yin Dynasty (c.1700-1050 BC) and the Zhou Dynasty. The Zhou dynasty was the first dynasty founded by the Mongoloid people in China called Hua (Who-aa). The founders of Xia and Shang came from the Fertile African Crescent by way of Iran. Chinese civilization began along the Yellow River. By 3500 BC. Blacks in China were raising silkworms and making silk. The culture hero Huang Di is a direct link of Africa. His name was pronounced in old Chinese Yuhai Huandi or "Hu Nak Kunte." He arrived in China from the west in 2282 BC and settled along the banks of the Loh River in Shanxi. This transliteration of Huandgi, to Hu Nak Kunte is interesting because Kunte is a common clan name among the Manding speakers. The Africans or Blacks that founded civilization in China were often called Li Min "black headed people" by the Zhou dynasts. This term has affinity to the Sumero-Akkadian term Sag- Gig-Ga "black headed people.â€

 The original Black population who lived in China were the Negritos and Austroloid groups. After 5000 BC, Africoid people from Kush in Africa began to enter China and Central Asia from Iran, while another groups reached China by sea. This two-route migration of Blacks to China led to the development of southern and northern Chinese branches of Africoids. The Northern Chino-Africans were called Kui-shuang (Kushana) or Yueh-chih, while the southern tribes were called Yi and li-man Yueh and Man. In addition to the Yueh Tribes along the north east coastal region, Blacks also lived in Turkestand, Mongolia, Transoxiana, the Ili region and Xinjiang Province.

Fifty thousand (50,000) years ago, the earliest forms of man were believed to have migrated from the Asian Subcontinent to the Philippine Islands via land bridges formed during the Ice Age. People of the Negrito Race came to the Philippines. Negritos can be described as a generally under five feet tall, flat nosed, dark-skinned with curly brown hair.

A number of factors lend support to the out-of-Africa hypothesis. The Negrito *look* African. Their skin color is light by African standards (though pygmy skin color is also lighter than their Bantu neighbors), but the rest of their physiology appears African. An interesting detail is the fact that the Negrito *sit* like pygmies, with their legs stretched out straight in front of them; I know of no other people who sit that way. The socio-economic relationship between the Negrito and their neighbors is strikingly analogous to that found in Africa. The relic populations of Vedda peoples found in Indonesia, Sri Lanka, and Arabia. The logical explanation for the presence of Blacks worldwide is part of a great migration.

In Southeast Asia and southern China, ancient skeletal remains represented the earliest inhabitants to be Austroloids and Negrillo/Negrito. By the beginning of the Present (Holocene) Period the population in China could be differentiate, and placed into categories designating Mongoloid in the north, and Oceanic on Black Races in the south. Below is an excerpt from Nsaka Sesepkekiu -Student of African and Asian Studies - University of the West Indies -Trinidad and Tobago who validates what is being said:

The original, first, native, primitive inhabitants of China were black Africans who arrived there about 100,000 years ago and dominated the region until a few thousand years ago when the Mongol advance into that region began. These Africans who fled the Mongol onslaught can still be found in South East Asia and the Pacific Islands misnomered Nigritos or "small black men." The Agta of the Philippines is one such example. Indeed archeology, forensic and otherwise confirm that China's first two dynasties, the Xia and the Ch'ang/Sh'ang, were largely Black African with an Australoid, called "Madras Indian" or "Chamar" in Trinidad, present in small percentages. These Africans would carry an art of fighting developed in the Horn of Africa into China which today we call martial arts: Tai Chi, Kung fu and Tae Kwon Do. Even the oracle of the I-Ching came with a later African group, the Akkadians of Babylon.

Around 500 BCE an African living in India called Gautama would establish a religion called Buddhism which would come to dominate Chinese thought. Any one who is in doubt should consult Geoffrey Higgins's Anacalypsis, Albert Churchward's Origin and Development of Religions, Gerald Massey's, Egypt the Light of the World, Runoko Rashidi's African Presence in Early Asia and J A Roger's Sex and Race Vol. 1. Many Africans survived the Mongol invasion into the twentieth century only to be exterminated by Chairman Mao's program of Cultural cleansing. Under this program millions of Africans and Afro-Asians were killed from 1951-1956. Contribute we still did, giving the People's Republic of China its first Chief Minister in the name of Eugene Chen, a Trinidadian of George Street, Port-of-Spain, who was of an African mother and a Chinese father.

The facts are well recorded in African, East Indian and African-American history books. China also has a series of pyramids and groups of people "minorities" in the South such as the Moi of Vietnam and the Nakhis of Southern China. Cheikh Diop's points are well made when he stressed that the Yellow Race has racial characteristics of both Negroid and Caucasian Races. The mixture of the two races created the Yellow Race.

The listed references give a good overview of ancient China and its peoples.
 
The last passage gives some credence to the theory that earliest Chinese were black.
 
This passage is believable and, afaik, is from a credible source.
 
But why is it so hard to accept that the earliest Chinese were black? So were the rest of us most likely.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 09:30
^LOL BTW why haven't you given examples of the Cuman's hand writing?

You said you wanted the reference about Qinling.

Study by Wu, Liu, Bae titled, Craniofacial Variation Between Southern and Northern Neolithic and Modern Chinese
http://www.anthropology.hawaii.edu/people/faculty/bae/pdfs/2012-wu-et-al-ijo.pdf
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Introduction

The Holocene is the primary epoch for the formation, differentiation and migratory patterning of Modern human populations throughout the world. Many changes in Homo sapiens’ lifestyle, culture, technology, behaviour and economic patterning occurred. Analysis of Holocene human remains is very important to understand the development of Modern human populations and how this development was influenced by environmental and/or cultural processes. Research conducted on Holocene human remains from different spatio-temporal contexts indicates that the physical characters of Modern humans are still changing (Henneberg, 1988). For instance, 70% of the cranial features of northern populations from Chile show distinct temporal changes (Rothhammer et al., 1982). In certain American populations from the mid-19th century to the 1970s the cranium became more dolichocephalic, and the face became narrower and higher (Jantz & Jantz, 2000). Studies of northeast African Nubian populations show that cranial robustness decreased, and head shape became more brachycephalic, while tooth and mandible size decreased (Carlson, 1976; Carlson & Van Gerven, 1977).


Conclusion

The results of this study indicate that significant craniofacial variation exists between southern and northern Neolithic and Modern Chinese. For example, northern Chinese have more robust crania than southern ones. Principal component analyses show that the Neolithic-North is distinguished from the Neolithic-South in having a tall face, narrow nose and high eyes, while the Modern-North separate from the Modern-South in having a tall, broad face and high nose. Bivariate plots of selected measures indicate the northern Chinese are different from the southern Chinese on cranial length, upper facial height and nasal height. The Neolithic Chinese between the Qinling Mountain range and the Yangtze River are mixed with the North and South. Statistically significant craniometrical differences exist between the Neolithic age and Modern day groups, and between the northern and southern Chinese. Temporal variation is also present. For instance, size decreased through time. However, some degree of morphological similarity exists between North and South China, and also between successive time periods. In the Neolithic sample the separation is clearer between the northern and southern samples than with the Modern arrays. During the Neolithic, the Qinling Mountain Range and the Yangtze River served as a geographic boundary between North and South China. Environmental and cultural factors clearly played important roles in the development of Modern Chinese cranial morphologies.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 09:45
Title: Y Chromosomes of 40% Chinese Are Descendants of Three Neolithic Super-grandfathers
Yan, Wang, Zheng and others

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1310/1310.3897.pdf

Which lineage in this study came directly out of Mongolia?  Oh wait, I couldn't find any.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 10:03
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Title: Y Chromosomes of 40% Chinese Are Descendants of Three Neolithic Super-grandfathers
Yan, Wang, Zheng and others

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1310/1310.3897.pdf

Which lineage in this study came directly out of Mongolia?  Oh wait, I couldn't find any.


By "cherry picking" extracts and using them out of the context intended, you are a fraud. You've done this on a number of posts on this and other threads.
 
I've told you, again, on another thread that I will no longer debate with you.
 
I've also reported your posts as being deliberate fraud and I hope you are banned.
 
DON'T ADDRESS ANY FURTHER POSTS TO ME BECAUSE I WON'T RESPOND.
 
 
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 10:19
What do you mean cherry picking extracts.  The whole paper was filled with the term "bottle-necks".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 10:32
Title: Y Chromosomes of 40% Chinese Are Descendants of Three Neolithic Super-grandfathers
Yan, Wang, Zheng and others

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1310/1310.3897.pdf

Quote
Haplogroup O, which covered 1/4 of all males on the world today 20, began frequent splitting into subclades before the LGM. The ancestor of O-M175 suffered an intermediate bottleneck event at 30 – 25 kya, and expanded rapidly at 24.7 – 21.5 kya, indicating a southern distribution during the LGM.


Not addressing anybody in particular now.  Just for the reference of people that want to avoid confusion in the debate about how I cherry picked.  I merely Ctrl F and searched for the term "bottlenecks".  It appeared no less than 7 times within 20+ pages of text.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2014 at 14:23
I'm glad you agreed to disagree...   live and learn...

Subject closed.
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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