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Chomsky: right or wrong?

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Poll Question: Do you agree with Chomsky?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
1 [7.69%]
1 [7.69%]
4 [30.77%]
7 [53.85%]
0 [0.00%]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 04:50
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

The works of Chomsky are literally not worth discussing!


As he is a linguist, he is worth discussing in that regard, but i do agree. Outside of his field he has no clue. His theories are not even worth a second thought.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 04:58
Captain Van, Chomsky is not regarded as an extremist in the current meaning of that word. He does not push extremist views on anyone. He is (rightly) regarded as a slippery apologist and propagandist for many unsavory left wing governments. He not only denies facts, but once faced with such, denies ever having denied them. And he steps across the threshold of apologist into the realm of propagandist when he musters all his resources to denounce those who have brought the sins of such regimes to light. In essence, he is a sort of Herman Goering mixed with Don Quijote of the Left.

Penguino: Who could disagree with that?  Go up and read the percentages on the poll. Obviously, many people disagree with that.


Edited by lirelou - 13 Mar 2011 at 05:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 05:23
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Captain Van, Chomsky is not regarded as an extremist in the current meaning of that word. He does not push extremist views on anyone. He is (rightly) regarded as a slippery apologist and propagandist for many unsavory left wing governments. He not only denies facts, but once faced with such, denies ever having denied them. And he steps across the threshold of apologist into the realm of propagandist when he musters all his resources to denounce those who have brought the sins of such regimes to light. In essence, he is a sort of Herman Goering mixed with Don Quijote of the Left.


Indeed.

Quote
Penguino: Who could disagree with that?  Go up and read the percentages on the poll. Obviously, many people disagree with that.


Pinguin, Chomsky and Co. see us as an empire, which is their right along with the criticism of the US, though being based solely on biased views, doesn't make us so. However, say it loud enough and often and people will start believing in what is being said. A model once formulated and followed by Goebbels. If he were alive today he would be so proud in seeing his ideas followed to the letter!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 12:16
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:



Pinguin, Chomsky and Co. see us as an empire, which is their right along with the criticism of the US, though being based solely on biased views, doesn't make us so. However, say it loud enough and often and people will start believing in what is being said. A model once formulated and followed by Goebbels. If he were alive today he would be so proud in seeing his ideas followed to the letter!


You are right, but don't you think, that the idea of messianic role of USA followed by many Americans is also delivered to human minds by the same methods?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 12:43
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

...
You just called Canadians a bunch of mindless sheep. The Canukians will not be pleased! Of course, in case you failed in noting, Canada and the US are two different countries with different styles of governance.


Well, in practise, Canada behaves as a Free associated state of the U.S.A. Something like a colder Puerto Rico Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 12:46
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


Pinguin, Chomsky and Co. see us as an empire, which is their right along with the criticism of the US, though being based solely on biased views, doesn't make us so. However, say it loud enough and often and people will start believing in what is being said. A model once formulated and followed by Goebbels. If he were alive today he would be so proud in seeing his ideas followed to the letter!


But you ARE an empire. Otherwise, how come the U.S.A. has so military bases around the world? And how come it invades countries at will?

It is shocking that Americans don't realize what they really are.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 12:49
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


Penguino: Who could disagree with that?  Go up and read the percentages on the poll. Obviously, many people disagree with that.


I see. Big brothers burocracy really works. They should read this Manufacturing Consent, then LOL




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 12:54
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


Pinguin, Chomsky and Co. see us as an empire, which is their right along with the criticism of the US, though being based solely on biased views, doesn't make us so. However, say it loud enough and often and people will start believing in what is being said. A model once formulated and followed by Goebbels. If he were alive today he would be so proud in seeing his ideas followed to the letter!


But you ARE an empire. Otherwise, how come the U.S.A. has so military bases around the world? And how come it invades countries at will?

It is shocking that Americans don't realize what they really are.




So, are you intending to discuss Chomsky as you said, or is he just cover for your usual anti-"gringo" agenda?




Edited by pikeshot1600 - 13 Mar 2011 at 12:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 13:27
Anti-gringo? Me?
So, just to mention the fact the U.S. is an empire is some sort of sacrilegious thought?
Amazing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 13:39
For his linguistic work; respect. I don't think we share more than that with mr Chomsky. Politics or ideas based on already formed political views are not of my interest. Those who judge based on politics may criticize him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 14:32
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Anti-gringo? Me?
So, just to mention the fact the U.S. is an empire is some sort of sacrilegious thought?
Amazing.


Sarcasm as well as evasion.  LOL

Amazing.

Seriously, others are discussing Chomsky.  We know you can as well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 14:50
Indeed, I found Chomsky a little bit exagerated, or cartoonistic.
Something like a cartoon of the gunboat policy age. No matter I agree with his points. I bet Americans agree on them as well.




Edited by pinguin - 13 Mar 2011 at 14:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 14:52
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Indeed, I found Chomsky a little bit exagerated, or cartoonistic.
Something like a cartoon of the gunboat policy age. No matter I agree with his points. I bet Americans agree on them as well.




*Sigh*  I guess you just can't help yourself.

Maybe others can actually discuss the topic YOU started.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 15:04
Maybe Chavez could help... Big smile




Edited by pinguin - 13 Mar 2011 at 15:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 15:18
And you know the hilarity that image produced among the educated, don't you Penguin. There is something so very gratifying in discovering the Dodo appealing to the Loon.
 
PS: And isn't it about time you find a new "cartoon" instead of misrepresenting the reality behind the one you always proffer?


Edited by drgonzaga - 13 Mar 2011 at 15:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 15:44
Another cartoon? Another American cartoon? Certainly sir. What about this one?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 16:23
Could it be a grand example of the woes in contemporary secondary education in the US and the nonsense about preparatory examination?
 
The site from which you drew the illustration:
 
 
The cartoon above is about foreign policy (we will not mention the undercurrents of racism therein expressed) and in advocacy of naval power with respect to such vis a vis Europe. That cartoon relates to events in 1904-1905 and the evolution the "Roosevelt Corollary" (and as with the other, outside the parameters raised by the thread), besides it is actually counterproductive with respect to your idol Chomsky because it is but another instance of his superficial plagiarisms when it comes to his forays outside linguistics. Here he is simply pillaging the thematics of Walter Lafeber in his revisionist writings of the 1960s (cf. The New Empire: An Interpretation of American Expansion, 1860-1898 [1963]). Why not go to the horse's mouth:
 
 
In his pseudo-historical writings Chomsky picks-and-chooses--usually without proper attribution--for the sake of his argumentative fiats and frankly reveals himself worthy of all the odium reserved for plagiarists. Of course, French intellectuals have done as much for centuries and explains why he is such a darling among that circle (Chomsky and Sartre are perfect bed-fellows). 


Edited by drgonzaga - 13 Mar 2011 at 16:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 16:34
Jesus! Chomsky a plagiarist? How common is it among American writers?
I know the guy that wrote Roots was a plagiarist as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 19:16
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

Actually, there seems to exist some evidence, no matter how it is received or conceived, that Oil is a "renewable" resource!  It seems that some people have exhibited some science indicating that "OIL" is currently being created, etc.! 
 
 
It's renewable. It just takes hundreds of thousands (at least) of years to renew it. We're using it up somewhat faster than that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 19:25
Chomsky is an embarrassment. I just wish he would shut up.
How anyone can describe himself as an anarchist, a socialist, a libertarian and a syndicalist at the same time beats me. I also can't see how anyone who subscribes, or says he does, to classical liberal economics can be described as 'leftist'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2011 at 22:07
I wonder if anybody has read Chomsky here, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 00:19
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:



Pinguin, Chomsky and Co. see us as an empire, which is their right along with the criticism of the US, though being based solely on biased views, doesn't make us so. However, say it loud enough and often and people will start believing in what is being said. A model once formulated and followed by Goebbels. If he were alive today he would be so proud in seeing his ideas followed to the letter!


You are right, but don't you think, that the idea of messianic role of USA followed by many Americans is also delivered to human minds by the same methods?


That certainly is a different kettle from the current pot of Chomsky stew we are gagging on currently. I believe the term is "American exceptionalism", which has it's own separate thread in the modern Americas forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 00:36
Exceptionalism? Why you avoid to used the word imperialism?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 01:14
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

...
You just called Canadians a bunch of mindless sheep. The Canukians will not be pleased! Of course, in case you failed in noting, Canada and the US are two different countries with different styles of governance.


Well, in practise, Canada behaves as a Free associated state of the U.S.A. Something like a colder Puerto Rico Wink


Sigh... I know you are just kidding, but therein lays the problem of foreign misconceptions, including us US citizens such as ahem... especially the disciples of Chomsky, for our northern neighbor. There are some similarities to be sure pinguin, but the mix of federalism and parliamentary rule is often ignored in favor of internationally goating along the Canadians into voicing some ridiculous sort of knee jerk anti-American response. The formula for deriding the Canadians and driving a wedge between them and the US works best when the US is, regretfully, required to be more engaged in the world than usual, either due to a lack of choice or dire necessity. But the accusation of intervening only for the sake of business or economical reasons is a childish way out of explaining the complexities of the world, a la Chomsky. I would like to sate further, like a dozen other states, it ought to be obvious to any foreign observers that Canada is still tied to the British monarchy, no matter however loosely.  Still, i am not foolish enough to paint the Canadians (Or any other ex British colony) as lacking the sovereignty in making their own decisions free of outside influences.

Besides proximity playing a huge role in the US-Canadian relationship, like most of the other Anglophone countries in the world, a combination of diplomacy and close cooperation in the world is a unique advantage all it's own and it makes it just a tad bit more easier when there is a shared history and language there to begin with. Unlike quite a few alive todayChurchill and FDR understood the uniqueness of the moment and ran with it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 01:16
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Exceptionalism? Why you avoid to used the word imperialism?


For the obvious enough reason that we are not an empire, yet... and hopefully never!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 01:53
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


That certainly is a different kettle from the current pot of Chomsky stew we are gagging on currently. I believe the term is "American exceptionalism", which has it's own separate thread in the modern Americas forum.


I was not going to discuss the exceptionalism, as you call it. I wrote my remark only to note that Chomsky's methods are not unique in USA (or wherever else).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 02:10
Panther, just in case anyone here assumes that all Chileans share "The Penguin's" views, I have in my library a short tome entitled: "El Imperialismo Norteamericano No Existe (and other essays)" penned by one Fernando Mires, born in Santiago, Chile, but a tenured professor in political sciences at the University of Oldenburg in Germany back in 2004. He even cites Chomsky among his references, but is apparently no fan. Hmm, imagine that. So our view of Noam is not merely some "American exceptionalism". Ther are others in the world who feel likewise.

Apologies to those who cannot understand the title, but the majority of English speakers should have no problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 07:48
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

...
You just called Canadians a bunch of mindless sheep. The Canukians will not be pleased! Of course, in case you failed in noting, Canada and the US are two different countries with different styles of governance.


Well, in practise, Canada behaves as a Free associated state of the U.S.A. Something like a colder Puerto Rico Wink


Sigh... I know you are just kidding, but therein lays the problem of foreign misconceptions, including us US citizens such as ahem... especially the disciples of Chomsky, for our northern neighbor. There are some similarities to be sure pinguin, but the mix of federalism and parliamentary rule is often ignored in favor of internationally goating along the Canadians into voicing some ridiculous sort of knee jerk anti-American response. The formula for deriding the Canadians and driving a wedge between them and the US works best when the US is, regretfully, required to be more engaged in the world than usual, either due to a lack of choice or dire necessity. But the accusation of intervening only for the sake of business or economical reasons is a childish way out of explaining the complexities of the world, a la Chomsky. I would like to sate further, like a dozen other states, it ought to be obvious to any foreign observers that Canada is still tied to the British monarchy, no matter however loosely.  Still, i am not foolish enough to paint the Canadians (Or any other ex British colony) as lacking the sovereignty in making their own decisions free of outside influences.

Besides proximity playing a huge role in the US-Canadian relationship, like most of the other Anglophone countries in the world, a combination of diplomacy and close cooperation in the world is a unique advantage all it's own and it makes it just a tad bit more easier when there is a shared history and language there to begin with. Unlike quite a few alive todayChurchill and FDR understood the uniqueness of the moment and ran with it.


 
Only pushed out into the world by lack of choice or dire necessity eh? Hmm. Are you sure you don't favor Palin for president?
 
One slight correction here: Canada is not "tied" to the British monarchy. The queen is the head of state in Canada, and a number of other countries, independant of the fact of being the head of state in Britain. Those countries are no more tied than European states are tied to the government of Belgium, because EU headquarters is in Brussels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 08:19
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

...
You just called Canadians a bunch of mindless sheep. The Canukians will not be pleased! Of course, in case you failed in noting, Canada and the US are two different countries with different styles of governance.


Well, in practise, Canada behaves as a Free associated state of the U.S.A. Something like a colder Puerto Rico Wink


Sigh... I know you are just kidding, but therein lays the problem of foreign misconceptions, including us US citizens such as ahem... especially the disciples of Chomsky, for our northern neighbor. There are some similarities to be sure pinguin, but the mix of federalism and parliamentary rule is often ignored in favor of internationally goating along the Canadians into voicing some ridiculous sort of knee jerk anti-American response. The formula for deriding the Canadians and driving a wedge between them and the US works best when the US is, regretfully, required to be more engaged in the world than usual, either due to a lack of choice or dire necessity. But the accusation of intervening only for the sake of business or economical reasons is a childish way out of explaining the complexities of the world, a la Chomsky. I would like to sate further, like a dozen other states, it ought to be obvious to any foreign observers that Canada is still tied to the British monarchy, no matter however loosely.  Still, i am not foolish enough to paint the Canadians (Or any other ex British colony) as lacking the sovereignty in making their own decisions free of outside influences.

Besides proximity playing a huge role in the US-Canadian relationship, like most of the other Anglophone countries in the world, a combination of diplomacy and close cooperation in the world is a unique advantage all it's own and it makes it just a tad bit more easier when there is a shared history and language there to begin with. Unlike quite a few alive todayChurchill and FDR understood the uniqueness of the moment and ran with it.


 
Only pushed out into the world by lack of choice or dire necessity eh? Hmm. Are you sure you don't favor Palin for president?


As a personal opinion, yes. No different than other countries acting in the own interests. Anyways, Canada is free to take on the Russians militarily all by themselves if they ever come calling on your Northern claims. We won't interfere in your part unless it is out of your countries own self interest that we do so, by simply asking us to.

Quote
 One slight correction here: Canada is not "tied" to the British monarchy. The queen is the head of state in Canada, and a number of other countries, independant of the fact of being the head of state in Britain. Those countries are no more tied than European states are tied to the government of Belgium, because EU headquarters is in Brussels.


So much is lost in translation Captain. What is your native tongue, if i may be so bold?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2011 at 08:51
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


That certainly is a different kettle from the current pot of Chomsky stew we are gagging on currently. I believe the term is "American exceptionalism", which has it's own separate thread in the modern Americas forum.


I was not going to discuss the exceptionalism, as you call it. I wrote my remark only to note that Chomsky's methods are not unique in USA (or wherever else).


A simple acknowledgment on my part would have sufficed. My apologies.
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