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Christian churches in the land of Islam

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Panther View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 May 2010 at 23:22
I admit, i am as near to being as thoroughly blind, ignorant and as confused about any one single subject as one can be! The thread i started about the mosque near ground zero has really got me too thinking: Are there Christian churches in Muslim countries and are they prevalent enough to be noticed by anyone? Are they even allowed at all? Are other worldly religions allowed too practice their beliefs in the lands of Muhammad? If not, why not? That is just one of the predominant questions raised that i continuously come across that i can not discuss nor address myself , let alone even reconcile this within my thoughts with what i had always thought Islam meant. I can't do this alone without the aid of the more knowledgeable posters.  So, can any Muslims or other fellow board members here please help to enlighten me on this very touchy subject?

Thank you,
Panther
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Parnell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2010 at 23:47
There are significant Christian minorities in many Muslim countries, particularly Syria and Egypt. The Coptish churches is one of the oldest Christian churches.

When the Crusaders arrived in Outremer in the last years of the 11th century they encountered a wide array of differing faiths, numerous Christian groups, Jews, Muslims etc. etc. There are still significant communities there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2010 at 23:49
Yes.
 
For example, the two holiest christian churches, the Church of the Nativity in Bethleham and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 03:52
The short answer, Panther, is yes. Still, I think it would be a bit misleading to say that there isn't a greater problem with religious tolerance in Muslim countries than in the West (although Europe is catching up, with it's mandatory dress codes and hate speech laws). I would suspect, however, that it has as much to do with relative levels of economic development and various other cultural factors as it does with "Islam".
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 04:09
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

The short answer, Panther, is yes. Still, I think it would be a bit misleading to say that there isn't a greater problem with religious tolerance in Muslim countries than in the West (although Europe is catching up, with it's mandatory dress codes and hate speech laws). I would suspect, however, that it has as much to do with relative levels of economic development and various other cultural factors as it does with "Islam".
 
-Akolouthos

You hit the nail on the head... and exactly as to why it is futile to continue with an apples and oranges comparison on such matters. Bring the discussion to a halt. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 10:26
Lets not bring anything to a halt, thank you. If you don't like the thread don't post in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 11:05
Agreed with Parnell. He has a perfectly objective question with perfectly possible objective answers, though granted the answer may vary from Muslim country to Muslim country. Anything else is obfuscation. Answers like es-bih's come over sounding completely defensive.
 
I also don't understand Akolouthos's point about hate speech laws which are certainly intended to help hold religious intolerance in check.
 
Ans as for dress codes, people with religious beliefs should be subject to exactly the same laws as people without, No privilege on the ground of religion, no exemption on the ground of religion, no restriction on the ground of religion is justifiable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 11:15

Church in Esfahan

Church in Esfahan

Church in Tehran

[StStephanusCathedralIran.jpg]



Edited by Zagros - 31 May 2010 at 11:18
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 11:15
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

The short answer, Panther, is yes. Still, I think it would be a bit misleading to say that there isn't a greater problem with religious tolerance in Muslim countries than in the West (although Europe is catching up, with it's mandatory dress codes and hate speech laws). I would suspect, however, that it has as much to do with relative levels of economic development and various other cultural factors as it does with "Islam".
 
-Akolouthos

You hit the nail on the head... and exactly as to why it is futile to continue with an apples and oranges comparison on such matters. Bring the discussion to a halt. 


Es_bih,

I realize this subject can be very touchy, but let me assure you, my intentions are purely honest and in the spirit of open inquiry due to my own inquisitiveness on a subject i am nearly clueless about.

My many apologies if i had upset anyone's sensibilities,
Panther
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 15:15
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Lets not bring anything to a halt, thank you. If you don't like the thread don't post in it.

I think you misunderstood me ... had nothing to with brining the thread to a halt, but the apples to oranges comparison that this discussion usually dwindles in to.

If anything it was a attempt to steer this thread down the AE direction ... in other words productive and full of context. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 15:16
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

The short answer, Panther, is yes. Still, I think it would be a bit misleading to say that there isn't a greater problem with religious tolerance in Muslim countries than in the West (although Europe is catching up, with it's mandatory dress codes and hate speech laws). I would suspect, however, that it has as much to do with relative levels of economic development and various other cultural factors as it does with "Islam".
 
-Akolouthos

You hit the nail on the head... and exactly as to why it is futile to continue with an apples and oranges comparison on such matters. Bring the discussion to a halt. 


Es_bih,

I realize this subject can be very touchy, but let me assure you, my intentions are purely honest and in the spirit of open inquiry due to my own inquisitiveness on a subject i am nearly clueless about.

My many apologies if i had upset anyone's sensibilities,
Panther

Please read my post above. I should've added another paragraph with my original post.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 15:18
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Agreed with Parnell. He has a perfectly objective question with perfectly possible objective answers, though granted the answer may vary from Muslim country to Muslim country. Anything else is obfuscation. Answers like es-bih's come over sounding completely defensive.
 
I also don't understand Akolouthos's point about hate speech laws which are certainly intended to help hold religious intolerance in check.
 
Ans as for dress codes, people with religious beliefs should be subject to exactly the same laws as people without, No privilege on the ground of religion, no exemption on the ground of religion, no restriction on the ground of religion is justifiable.

Let us not be haste with casting me in the "people like..." category just yet. In order to be on any defensive I'd have to actually be apologetic of governments/countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and some others... which I've been fairly critical of in my personal, academic, and "AE" life if you will.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 15:23












Edited by es_bih - 31 May 2010 at 15:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 15:24
Some examples from Bosnia. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 15:47
Well a simple question--Are there any churches in Muslim countries?--demands a simple answer: yes!
 
The problem here is one of perception in terms of Islam and the politics of Saudi Arabia. Let us not forget that it was not so long ago that other political entities proscribed public sanctuaries of belief systems not in accord with state policy. Likewise, any fostering of the premise that Islam itself is anti-thetical to Christianity is essentially unhistorical and can only be discussed not in terms of religion but rather politics at each and every band of the historical spectrum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 18:28
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Agreed with Parnell. He has a perfectly objective question with perfectly possible objective answers, though granted the answer may vary from Muslim country to Muslim country. Anything else is obfuscation. Answers like es-bih's come over sounding completely defensive.
 
I also don't understand Akolouthos's point about hate speech laws which are certainly intended to help hold religious intolerance in check.
 
Ans as for dress codes, people with religious beliefs should be subject to exactly the same laws as people without, No privilege on the ground of religion, no exemption on the ground of religion, no restriction on the ground of religion is justifiable.

Let us not be haste with casting me in the "people like..." category just yet. In order to be on any defensive I'd have to actually be apologetic of governments/countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and some others... which I've been fairly critical of in my personal, academic, and "AE" life if you will.
Where did 'people like...' come from? And I said it sounded defensive, as it did. It's obvious from other people's reactions too that you were a little unguarded in what you said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 18:31
Part of the problem comes from the fact that we can even talk about 'Muslim countries' and 'Christian countries' and 'secular countries'.
 
At a deeper level still part of the problem is that we even talk about 'countries' as a special kind of political entity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 19:22
Hello to you all
 
I been away for two days but this thread and the other one (haven't read it yet) is a classic one:
"they don't allow us to worship why should we".
 
The problem is that 99% of people who strat with this line know perfectly well that its dead wrong but since the average guy in street has no clue about it he goes with the herd.
 
Here is a list of Cathedrals in the world, pick a muslim country and you will find one, you will be surprised that some muslim countries have more cathedrals than "christian ones":
 
Here is a list of muslim countries:
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 20:11
Great information, al Jassas, especially with the spinoff lists at the bottom to other religions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 04:41
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Ans as for dress codes, people with religious beliefs should be subject to exactly the same laws as people without, No privilege on the ground of religion, no exemption on the ground of religion, no restriction on the ground of religion is justifiable.
 
Isn't this more of a European perspective? There do appear to be implicit protections -- if not privileges -- the the ground of religion in the U.S., at least. And there are, unless my understanding is faulty, more restrictions as well -- in the way the law has been interpreted, if not in the way the founders intended.
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 12:09
Protecting groups of people is not privileging them unless the same protection is denied to other groups. If a group of people is actually defined as sufferers from a specific disability (which would, generously interpreted, include being a child) then such privileging is acceptable[1] Otherwise though it isn't.
 
In particular I would argue that offering protection to people of one religious belief and denying it to others would be wrong (and in fact I can't see any acceptance of that in the US constitution).
 
I don't see my perspective as being particularly European. It may be true that there currently are more such biassed protections - or restrictions - in the US than in Europe (I'm not claiming there are) but if so that merely means the US is more in the wrong than Europe, There's nothing particularly justificatory about the geographical location of such practices.  
 
[1] I could hardly say otherwise, since I have and use a privileged parking permit for disability.


Edited by gcle2003 - 26 Aug 2010 at 12:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 14:45
One has to make a distinction between so-called "Muslim countries".
A "Muslim country" (or a "Muslim"), could refer to any of the 3:
- a country where the official state religion is Islam (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan under the Talibans)
- a country where the majority of its inhabitants are practicing Muslims (Egypt, Jordan, Algeria, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia etc.)
- a country where the majority of its inhabitants are of Muslim background, many of which are non-practicing (Bosnia, Azerbaijan, Tunisia, kazakhstan, Kyrgystan, Senegal etc...)

Most of the countries in the first categories do not tolerate any, or very few Christian believers.
Most of the countries in the second categories do have substantial other religious minorities, although in many cases they are under constante pressure from the Muslim majority. Most of those in the third category tend to be as religiously as tolerant as most European countries.

The sensationalist press tend to use the word "Muslim" collectively refering to a wide category from any non-believer of a Muslim religious background to devout believers, in order to make people equate one with the other and view all "Muslims" as the same as the most orthodox, reactionary, fundamentalist sects.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2014 at 03:06
At the end of the day, does any of this really matter.
 
What God a person holds dear is a personal thing and should not be politicised, yes, I know that statement is simplistic, but it's what I believe.
 
Back in the 13 and 14th Centuries, while the Roman Catholic Church was inflicting unspeakable cruelty on its members via the Holy Inquisition, the Mongols allowed any and all religions to be practised in areas under their control. So much for Mongol savagery!
 
Yes there are Christian Churches in Muslim Countries, just like their are Mosques in Christian countries, and that's how it should be, live and let live, it's the Australian way!
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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