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CIA-911-Benghazi

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2015 at 05:10
I jumbled because I couldn't quite remember it right.  I was thinking fox and lion? no, fox and wolf? no...  etc.  so I said two foxes.  Hedgehog makes a lot of sense, in Aesop fables terms.

this means that ancient peoples knew that replacing one tyrant with another doesn't solve the problem.
If George W Bush or Barack Obama had studied their Aesop, maybe we won't be in this position.

I'm not saying that we (the U.S.) should have done this or done that, I am saying that we replaced one set of blood suckers with another set, even more vicious and hungry.
People have 20/20 hindsight, however, accurate foresight is even more important (and more rare).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2015 at 05:42
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I jumbled because I couldn't quite remember it right.  I was thinking fox and lion? no, fox and wolf? no...  etc.  so I said two foxes.  Hedgehog makes a lot of sense, in Aesop fables terms.

this means that ancient peoples knew that replacing one tyrant with another doesn't solve the problem.
If George W Bush or Barack Obama had studied their Aesop, maybe we won't be in this position.

I'm not saying that we (the U.S.) should have done this or done that, I am saying that we replaced one set of blood suckers with another set, even more vicious and hungry.
People have 20/20 hindsight, however, accurate foresight is even more important (and more rare).


Hedgehogs make sense to you, very well.

Maybe you should have used a modern example or correctly cited the ancient one.

You have said nothing but the obvious regarding Libya.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2015 at 17:12
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Secretary of State Clinton and Susan(?) Rice (former UN ambassador) were hawkish women in the Obama administration who pushed for us to go into Libya, because of a concern for human rights.  Rice, in particular wrote a book or something "about" the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and Serbia and the role Bob Dole played in getting us as involved a we were, in the Balkans.  After WWII, Bob Dole was put back together by the donation of time and effort by an Armenian doctor, and so when ethnic cleansing started happening in the Balkans, Dole recognized that, "it was happening again."  Dole ran and lost the Presidency against Bill Clinton, but as a powerful senator he was able to manuever us into going in to the Balkans, despite the fact that the separation of powers says that the executive branch sets foreign policy.  I don't think that Bill was quite happy with this, but according to Rice in a television interview, that is how it worked out.  President Bill Clinton has expressed some regrets that we didn't use the military in Rwanda to prevent the genocide.  I assume that has some effect on Secretary Clinton's hawkish stance (relative to President Obama), towards Libya.  My point is, that despite personally looking at Hillary Rodham Clinton unfavorably, I think that there honestly were human rights issues motivating our involvement in Libya (but not necessarily _just_ human rights issues, as Rahm Immanuel would say, "never let a crisis go to waste." an evil little saying, if I ever heard one).  
In principle, I think that using the military to stop genocide is a worthy goal (in principle).  The problem is, is that it doesn't stop at that.

Now I am going to give a little story from Aesop, and it will sound like I am talking about foxes and other animals, but I am really talking about Libya, and Iraq, and Syria, etc.;)

There was this fox who was stuck in a thicket and covered in ticks and half dead from the loss of blood.  Along came another fox, and his heart went out to the first fox in such a predicament.  Not able to get the first fox out of the thicket, the other fox offered to pick off the ticks.  The first fox, replied to the second, "don't do that, these blood suckers are nearly full, but if you remove them, new ones will take their place, and they would suck me dry and finish me for good."

To paraphrase Baba O'Reilly, "meet the new boss, same as the old boss, just like yesterday, we get on our knees and pray, that we don't get fooled again!  (Who)


Comparing the clout of WW2 vet Dole with Susan Rice is almost childish. Do you really think she had the political prowess to make an invasion of Libya happen? This is based on your assumption that Dole made the Balkans invasion happen. (NATO invaded Kosovo)

She in fact was forced as you know to lie repeatedly about Benghazi (because of a video). Then she said we had a deal to use bases in Ankara(we didn't).
As for Rice's book, she found and angle and worked it. Not unusual but its a sliver of perception. Its never been the full story of the war in Bosnia/Serbia.

And Obama is no Reagan. You are old enough to remember that after 444 days the hostages in Iran were released minutes after the presidency was turned over to R.Reagan. Baby, that ain't the same BOSS.

If you had gone back and found the ancient quote it would have been elegant. And its not so hard on the eyes to be wrong if you are at least poetic.

Don't worry about me using other people's work without sourcing. I don't and I won't. Every post I've written has been referenced when I used someone else's work. From your beloved:

When a source may not be needed[edit]

Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue,
The Pope is Catholic
General common knowledge: Statements that the average adult recognizes as true. Examples: "Paris is the capital of France" or "Humans normally have two arms and two legs."
Subject-specific common knowledge: Material that someone familiar with a topic, including laypersons, recognizes as true. Example (from Processor): "In a computer, the processor is the component that executes instructions."
Plot of the subject of the article: If the subject of the article is a book or film or other artistic work, it is unnecessary to cite a source in describing events or other details. It should be obvious to potential readers that the subject of the article is the source of the information. If the subject of the article is a work that has been published or broadcast in a serial manner, then citing the episode, issue or book can aid comprehension for readers not familiar with the whole of the serial work. It also aids verification if editors are concerned about inappropriate use of the artistic work (a primary source) for interpretation.


Edited by Vanuatu - 26 May 2015 at 17:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2015 at 18:28
Yes, a hedgehog makes sense, a lion is proud, a fox is clever, a wolf is vicious, a dog is loyal, there is kind of an anthropology of human characteristics to Aesop's animals.

Okay, I butchered the story, mea culpa,  If the ancients knew it, and if it is so darn obvious to you, (albeit I suspect 20/20 hindsight), then the sophisticates in DC should have known it, or at least recognized it as a potential trap.  But, they probably believed that since we have the best toys, we can
do anything.
I think that you misunderstood about Rice and Dole.  Rice wrote a book, 15 years ago, in which she talked about Dole and him forcing President Clinton's hand into getting involved in the Balkans.  Genocide is a very important topic for Rice, and the Balkans is actually where we (Nato) actually got a little involved in stopping it.

WHAT!  You're using Wikipedia as a source!  I thought that was forbidden in your book! <grin>
Plato defined man as a featherless biped, at which point Diogenes the Cynic burst into the Academy waving a plucked chicken, screaming "here is Plato's man!"  to which Plato added to his description, "with nails."  Got to love Diogenes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2015 at 20:03
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Yes, a hedgehog makes sense, a lion is proud, a fox is clever, a wolf is vicious, a dog is loyal, there is kind of an anthropology of human characteristics to Aesop's animals.

Okay, I butchered the story, mea culpa,  If the ancients knew it, and if it is so darn obvious to you, (albeit I suspect 20/20 hindsight), then the sophisticates in DC should have known it, or at least recognized it as a potential trap.  But, they probably believed that since we have the best toys, we can
do anything.
I think that you misunderstood about Rice and Dole.  Rice wrote a book, 15 years ago, in which she talked about Dole and him forcing President Clinton's hand into getting involved in the Balkans.  Genocide is a very important topic for Rice, and the Balkans is actually where we (Nato) actually got a little involved in stopping it.

WHAT!  You're using Wikipedia as a source!  I thought that was forbidden in your book! <grin>
Plato defined man as a featherless biped, at which point Diogenes the Cynic burst into the Academy waving a plucked chicken, screaming "here is Plato's man!"  to which Plato added to his description, "with nails."  Got to love Diogenes. 


What does a hedgehog represent in this discussion? You left out the one relevant animal symbol to the discussion.

If anyone forced Clinton's hand in going into the Balkans it was Madeline Albright not Republican Bob Dole.

You confound in your representation of history. The US was more than a little involved in the Nato action, including US Air Force and US Infantry. You do them a disservice.

State Dept. ignored the obvious because they were being advised by Sid Vicious who was working his own deal with the rebels (the Libyan gold?).

He originally perpetrated the lie about the video but by the next day he was advising that it had nothing to do with the attack and confirms that the security team simply abandoned Ambassador Stevens.
Yet the lies continued on and on. Not just from Rice but from Hillaroid and the corporate media.

However important genocide is to Rice (as if this was an uncommon virtue) you avoid the obvious, she is a talking head with no real political power. If you deny that they why don't you wiki up a rebuttal?

Wiki was for your benefit. I then went on to edit that entry to include that all quotes from the Obama Admin should be told in parables.
Damn right I would have loved Diogenes.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 01:14
Don't you know?  everybody thinks that Madeline Albright was state department, but that was really a cover for her true position in the CIA.  Some of those pins she had squirted acid;)  And Bob Dole was her handler.
Susan Rice (I believe was the same Rice, there are so many these days) was an academic who wrote a book (if I remember right) about genocide in general as an introduction, and about Bosnia specifically.  She was interviewed on the hour long show, Booknotes, on Cspan.  She said that the person who was key for us getting involved with Bosnia was Bob Dole, who was put back together by an Armenian doctor after WWII and by him, educated about the Armenian genocide.  Dole recognized the same thing was happening in Bosnia, and as a very important senior Senator, he twisted the White House's arm, getting them (U.S.) more involved.  Bill Clinton, however, didn't really want to get involved.  How he did this, I don't remember.  If you want to hunt down the story, do so, I've given you enough to probably find it on your own, either a youtube clip of Booknotes, or Rice's book.  What I'm saying is very simple, 'this is what I heard and remembered.'  You are not obligated to check on it, I mention things to hopefully illuminate things, a little, sometimes maybe a very little.<grin>  But if you don't like them, then don't use them for food for thought. I'm just saying that past behavior or belief may be connected to future or current behavior or belief.
Did I say the US wasn't involved?  Whenever NATO is involved the US is the backbone of it, or at least a major player.  I think you just want to ride me:P <grin>
Well you can tell the Obama administration that all quotes should be told in parables, but they don't listen to anyone else, so I don't think they'll listen to you.  
You might look up "Diogenes" in _The Lives of Eminent Philosophers_ by Diogenes Laertius (the author is a different Diogenes).  You can find it on Perseus.tufts.edu.  It's a fun read.

Well, either my story about the two foxes/fox and hedgehog is obvious, and thus you know about hedgehogs, or it is not obvious, and you don't know about hedgehogs.  Which is it???  ;)

"The fox knows many things, the hedgehog but one, one big one."  foxes are known for their cleverness, but despite all their cleverness, they can't defeat the hedgehog, if he does what a hedgehog does, roll up in a ball and stick out his spines.  Fox is a complex character, but sometimes too tricky for his own good.  Hedgehog is a more simple soul.  In this story of the fox, the hedgehog and the ticks, you really just need any animal for the fox to play off of.  Something "neutral" like a hedgehog, but not like a lion (too proud to get involved), nor a wolf (too vicious, according to folklore), nor a dog (an enemy of the fox).

Sid Vicious??  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 01:49
I knew Albright was powerful person. I did not know that she had a connection to Bob Dole as her CIA handler. I will look into it.
Look I believe our country is torturing people in this so called war on terror, I'm not gonna be shocked if its true about Albright and Dole.

You seemed to minimize the extent of the involvement of the US military and I heard about unbelievable bravery,sacrifice and suffering during that war by our troops while helping civilians, kids and old people... so I wanted to be clear about the extent of the commitment.

I had no idea what the hedgehog meant. If you had said porcupine I would have got it.

Sid Vicious? My pet name for Sid Blumenthal. He was the lead guitarist for the Sex Pistols, a 1970's punk rock band. Good film about him called Sid and Nancy, actor Gary Olman.

Ok gotcha, thanks for Diogenes suggested reading.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 04:22
Porcupines are, I believe, North American.  Hedgehogs are Europeans and have wonderful accents.
I remember Nancy's whining.
No, I think Bosnia shows that we (U.S) can be kind to muslims, even though in later conflicts there have been problems of mistreatment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 04:56
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Porcupines are, I believe, North American.  Hedgehogs are Europeans and have wonderful accents.
I remember Nancy's whining.
No, I think Bosnia shows that we (U.S) can be kind to muslims, even though in later conflicts there have been problems of mistreatment.


Hystricidae - Old World porcupines. There are 11 species in this family. Old World porcupines are found in Europe, Africa, and Asia. They have stocky bodies, rounded heads, and stiff quills.www.nhptv.org/wild/hystricidae.asp

Ok so "Dimsdale" the hedgehog has a Porcupine pal. Hehe, Nancy. That movie...ever laugh so much at something so damn sad?

No actually the torture reference was response to recent news stories about US scooping up civilians and sending them to GITMO for torture. Were talking Nazi level sick, cruel and monstrous.

"Kidnapping Civilians"

"The plight of the Guantanamo detainees is now coming to light with the release of prisoners from the Camp Delta Concentration camp in Guantanamo, after more than two years of captivity.

The evidence suggests that most of the detainees are in fact civilians.

Compare Seymour Hersh’s account in the “Getaway” pertaining to the US sponsored evacuation of hard core Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters with the various accounts and testimonies pertaining to the deportation of innocent civilians to Guantanamo."

"What these comparisons convey is that Al Qaeda fighters and their senior Pakistani advisers were “saved” on the orders of Donald Rumsfeld. Meanwhile, also on the orders of the Secretary of Defense, innocent civilians who had no relationship whatsoever to the war theater were categorized as “enemy combatants”, kidnapped, interrogated and sent to Guantanamo."

There is a film called "Dark side of Doctors; Torture at Guantanamo Bay"
Short youtube link there. They have psychologists and a very sophisticated method for breaking people. One story of a seven year old kid who got taken for throwing a rock at troops...almost seven years later they send him home a zombie. It's just immoral beyond words.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/kidnapping-and-deporting-civilians-to-guantanamo-providing-a-safe-haven-to-al-qaeda-fighters/5448290https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSVTrtof6Ao

Edited by Vanuatu - 27 May 2015 at 04:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 05:18
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Don't you know? everybody thinks that Madeline Albright was state department, but that was really a cover for her true position in the CIA. Some of those pins she had squirted acid;)


    Thanks, I really needed that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kardama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2015 at 10:48
I personally liked the Larry King's interview with Jesse'the body'Ventura shortly after 9.11.2001.
Asked by King why he doesn't believe the 9-11 was planned and organized by Osama bin Laden,the former governor started with the line.."How can 2 airplanes knock down 3 buildings"?
More on Jesse Ventura,if you type...Conspiracies with Jesse Ventura.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2015 at 22:09
I hadn't gotten around to that conspiracy theory yet. I'm glad you poste that Kardama thank you.

I can't believe what I'm reading and seeing on YouTube. But as someone said on the subject -the Jews never thought it would happen either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2015 at 01:09
I wouldn't believe everything you hear, or rather tentatively believe it, but look for what kind of slant or bias is being put on it?  What is being said, and what is not being said?  What is the distortion?

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Figures don't lie, but liars figure.

There is nothing in that Lindaur speech that feels substantial.  By that I mean some fact or interpretation that one could check out.  Maybe one could check out that she was imprisoned, but why is more nebulous.  Yes, there were specific charges, but those don't answer the real question, "why."  All we have is her word, and while she does seem honest, intelligent and forthright, the facts for an independent judgment of what happened in her case are all missing.  Maybe that was part of the intention of isolating her so much, and I don't know what's in her book.
Why did she say there is sulfer in thermite, did people at the site smell sulfer??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kardama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2015 at 03:31
Lindauer was a CIA asset and put in prison for" spilling the beans "...HAVING A BIG MOUTH.
We didn't need Susan to tell us all,there was something rotten in Denmark.Other sources started harping on 9-11 long before she did.
Her book and trips to George Noory's studio only confirmed events many people were highly suspicious of.
For example the owner of one of the skyscrapers is on record on YouTube saying in an interview that his building was brought down by a controlled explosion,thus ridding him of the'asbestos problem' of an old structure and lawsuits connected with this.
His property was the 3rd tower that fell shortly after the twin towers.
Then there were the pesky office workers from neighboring skyscrapers in NY, reporting to the media that,before the towers fell there were multiple light flashes/those are also from controlled explosions/ seen by many.Lindauer confirmed all those facts by saying that CIA folks in maintenance vans were working months before 9-11 wiring the explosions to support columns in those buildings.NO ASBESTOS-NO MORE LAWSUITS FOR THE OWNERS OF THESE HIGH RISES..wink wink.
And on and on and on...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kardama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2015 at 03:41
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I hadn't gotten around to that conspiracy theory yet. I'm glad you poste that Kardama thank you.

I can't believe what I'm reading and seeing on YouTube. But as someone said on the subject -the Jews never thought it would happen either.


And talking about the jews...several Israeli folks were arrested atop of one of the neighboring skyscrapers,clapping,cheering as the twins fell to the ground.
FBI arrested all of them and sent them back to Tel Aviv.
Later,it turned out these fun seekers were poised hours before the events of 9-11 with cameras and what have you to 'record' the event for posterity.
FBI seized the films.It was reported on all networks at the time.
Those were MOSAD operatives...according to George Noory...OMG...what a surprise.
But wait,there's more...also reported on the main networks the next day was the minor fact,that all brokers from one of the investment firms were advised early in the morning on 9-11 not to come to work.
To manys surprise,some of those traders,instead of shutting up, were talking to the media.
Some clairvoyant knew there was something that was going to happen that same day...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2015 at 03:58
Its sage advice that you give and I appreciate the intention. Thank you.
I don't know enough about the physics behind thermite to determine if the debunkers are correct. Same problem Joe Rogan had when a friend convinced him that the moon landing was fake.

My inclination to believe Susan Lindauer is based on her claims about the events leading up to 9/11 and her incarceration without a hearing. Have not read the book as yet.

You see what I do know is that the Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme was real and yet people in power completely resisted extensive evidence for ten years because of corruption.

The banking crisis and subsequent corporate welfare at the expense of regular folks did actually happen. Much of that money was used for bonuses to the bankers themselves.

The Housing Bubble may be called a result of economic decisions made by Federal Reserve thereby making it legitimate.
But those decisions are not made in any democratic way. Hearings be damned average people simply don't know who to believe.

Its been all too easy for the CIA and FBI to use people for unethical medical experiments and the invasive disruptions of subversive but constitutionally protected speech. And DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt.

I think of Tuskegee Syphilis study.

Inhumane conditions at mental hospitals in Massachusetts.

Asbestos being used even though it was known to cause disease as early as 1932.

As late as 1970 Britain sent hundreds of children in state care to Australia to be used as slave labor.

MK-ULTRA the secret program to see if LSD could be used as a truth serum.

Multiple cases where industrial waste poisoned water supplies in the US, denied by the corporations who made money. Finally forced into the light because of diligent citizens.

Iran Contra, Fast and Furious, (recent)IRS Scandal, Operation Paperclip, The Manhattan Project, Watergate. Colin Powell and his retraction of the claims he made to justify the case for war in Iraq.

There are films of Armenian children being given candy, smiling because they were starving, then cut, print and dig a big hole.

Do I even have to go into Joseph Kennedy and his support of the Nazis, his manipulation of the stock market?

All these things were denied until the truth was forced out; usually many decades later when those responsible couldn't be touched. And I know I'm not hitting all of them.

In my view there is enough room for the consideration of conspiracy in world events. So I will keep an open mind.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1238063/It-happened-I-sent-Australia-child-migrant.html

Edited by Vanuatu - 30 May 2015 at 04:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2015 at 04:40
I tend to think that there are conspiracies, but there is no "Conspiracy."

I don't really believe in an overarching conspiracy, because I think stupidity and arrogance can go a long way in explaining things.

It is generally not the crime that gets politicians in trouble, it is the coverup.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2015 at 14:49
Originally posted by Kardama Kardama wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I hadn't gotten around to that conspiracy theory yet. I'm glad you poste that Kardama thank you.

I can't believe what I'm reading and seeing on YouTube. But as someone said on the subject -the Jews never thought it would happen either.


And talking about the jews...several Israeli folks were arrested atop of one of the neighboring skyscrapers,clapping,cheering as the twins fell to the ground.
FBI arrested all of them and sent them back to Tel Aviv.
Later,it turned out these fun seekers were poised hours before the events of 9-11 with cameras and what have you to 'record' the event for posterity.
FBI seized the films.It was reported on all networks at the time.
Those were MOSAD operatives...according to George Noory...OMG...what a surprise.
But wait,there's more...also reported on the main networks the next day was the minor fact,that all brokers from one of the investment firms were advised early in the morning on 9-11 not to come to work.
To manys surprise,some of those traders,instead of shutting up, were talking to the media.
Some clairvoyant knew there was something that was going to happen that same day...


I had this sense of disbelief about 9/11 conspiracy, I couldn't even let my mind go there for a long time. Many people around the world, not lunatics, scientists and journalists who don't share my impediment, have looked at the events without the lens of Old Glory.

There is something about MOSAD in all of this. It's been years and people forget that at least 60 Israelis were arrested right after the attack/bombing. There were 140 instances of espionage being investigated as those buildings went down. These were instances of ex-Israeli military operating in the US, spying on Arabs. Yes everyone has to serve in Israeli military. In this case a disproportionate number were information specialists.

These documents are classified of course. Amdocs is an Israeli company that records and stores billing data for companies in the US. They work for the top 25 American phone services, AT&T, Verizon...and there's Converse Info services doing wiretapping for the US. They were intercepting calls, recording and storing information. MOSAD did warn the White House just before 9/11 but the warning was without any quantitative details.

As for the people seen reacting with joy on the rooftop, there are eye witnesses saying this. People were very alert while this was going on. Again I'm no longer accepting official government responses. I am more inclined to believe what was observed by the people who could see the events that day. There was at that point, no reason for average citizens to lie.   
This conference in Toronto available on free version of HULU
"911 Ten Years of Deception"

Edited by Vanuatu - 01 Jun 2015 at 15:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2015 at 04:04
There are plenty of reasons for average citizens to lie, there are also reasons why they could get an observation wrong.  Some people want to attribute all kinds of evil things to Israel, or to Bush or to bankers, so forth.  Some people hate others of certain group so much that they do not care about whether what they say is true, they just care about whether it maligns the group they hate.  Now whether the conspiracy theorists regarding 9/11 are that way, I don't know.  But, when I hear about Israelis cheering the falling of the Towers, I tend to disbelieve it.  "Anonymous" sources say so, or it must be true because Mossad spies on US, well that just doesn't cut it in my book.  (Mossad does spy on the US and the CIA or NSA probably spies on them too.)  The fact that they spy on us, does not mean that much, _except_ that we have information that they want to know both about our actions and about others actions.
It is interesting that the CIA is thought to be so powerful and efficient in supposedly "getting away" with 9/11, and yet they got the WMDs so wrong for Iraq, and they didn't even "arrange" for stockpiles to get discovered.  If they were so powerful, then why didn't they just _make_ the evidence?  btw, there is a reason why Western intelligence services got the WMDs wrong.  Iraq was saying one thing to the West (no WMDs) and saying another to Iran (yes WMDs).  They were also jerking around the inspectors and so intelligence services looked at what they were saying to Iran, and so didn't believe that there were none.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2015 at 04:57
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There are plenty of reasons for average citizens to lie, there are also reasons why they could get an observation wrong.  Some people want to attribute all kinds of evil things to Israel, or to Bush or to bankers, so forth.  Some people hate others of certain group so much that they do not care about whether what they say is true, they just care about whether it maligns the group they hate.  Now whether the conspiracy theorists regarding 9/11 are that way, I don't know.  But, when I hear about Israelis cheering the falling of the Towers, I tend to disbelieve it.  "Anonymous" sources say so, or it must be true because Mossad spies on US, well that just doesn't cut it in my book.  (Mossad does spy on the US and the CIA or NSA probably spies on them too.)  The fact that they spy on us, does not mean that much, _except_ that we have information that they want to know both about our actions and about others actions.
It is interesting that the CIA is thought to be so powerful and efficient in supposedly "getting away" with 9/11, and yet they got the WMDs so wrong for Iraq, and they didn't even "arrange" for stockpiles to get discovered.  If they were so powerful, then why didn't they just _make_ the evidence?  btw, there is a reason why Western intelligence services got the WMDs wrong.  Iraq was saying one thing to the West (no WMDs) and saying another to Iran (yes WMDs).  They were also jerking around the inspectors and so intelligence services looked at what they were saying to Iran, and so didn't believe that there were none.




Why didn't the CIA plant WMD's? They didn't have to, did they? Still got two wars and Americans ready to go after a selected target out of terror. So when our government said they knew about WMD's- they didn't really, did they?

Since when is Iran our friend in the information exchange?
If you care to know what really happened look at the day of 9/11...there are fire fighters, journalists and people who were THERE on air talking about successive explosions, you can hear the explosions. Look at the way the buildings collapsed watch the pattern of deliberate demolition.

Listen to the BBC predict the imminent collapse of Building #7 two hours before it happened.

Yeah Saddam did all that sh*t. He wasn't St Paul. Guess Bashir gassing his people was acceptable. Look at the death and destruction since 9/11. We sacrificed our best and brightest, now we have thousands of veterans who are sick, suffering and neglected.

We created the opportunity for Iraq to be taken over by an element even worse than Saddam. Iran is lying about their nuke program, should we go kick in their door now?

It's not anonymous sources on MOSSAD, it was reported at the time by the news media. All swept under the rug. Those guys were released and went on Israeli TV and admitted they were there to "document" the event.

Believe what you will. There is a ton of information to be considered. Your not going to find it on American TV.
If you are content with the official story then sleep well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 05:00
Satellite photos can only tell so much, there were things that they thought were WMD, that on closer inspection, were not.  The Iraqis were telling us that they had no WMDs, but the Iraqis were saying to the Iranians (and we were eavesdropping), that they did have WMDs.  Other intelligence agencies thought that they had WMDs, and of course they had gassed the Kurds and the Iranians in the past, so there was a history of Iraq trying to develop WMDs.  

There is a strong inclination in the American psyche to be isolationist and pretend the rest of the world is not there.  Some people, who believe that 9/11 was due to terrorists, believe that the 9/11 attack shows that we cannot just stand there with our head in the sand.  There may be debate about what is the best action to take, but the worst case would just be passive towards everything and everyone.

But, I'll look at your Mossad link, I have also been looking on my own into the sources on 9/11 and also
on conspiracy theory.  I want you to know that I take what you say seriously, even though I don't agree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 13:49
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Satellite photos can only tell so much, there were things that they thought were WMD, that on closer inspection, were not.  The Iraqis were telling us that they had no WMDs, but the Iraqis were saying to the Iranians (and we were eavesdropping), that they did have WMDs.  Other intelligence agencies thought that they had WMDs, and of course they had gassed the Kurds and the Iranians in the past, so there was a history of Iraq trying to develop WMDs.  

There is a strong inclination in the American psyche to be isolationist and pretend the rest of the world is not there.  Some people, who believe that 9/11 was due to terrorists, believe that the 9/11 attack shows that we cannot just stand there with our head in the sand.  There may be debate about what is the best action to take, but the worst case would just be passive towards everything and everyone.

But, I'll look at your Mossad link, I have also been looking on my own into the sources on 9/11 and also
on conspiracy theory.  I want you to know that I take what you say seriously, even though I don't agree.


http://rethink911.org/

I listened to Powell too and I believed him. I know you're a smart guy but please do bear in mind when you say that the "Iraqis were telling us..." xyz. What you mean is the government and corporate media were feeding us this information.

So far thousands of engineers and architects have signed this petition. Some polls have 84% of Americans not believing the 9/11 Commission Report. BTW Building #7 isn't even in the report. It's barely mentioned. No one asks why the building fell.

All the evidence that would have shown the source of the explosion   was quickly cut up, mixed with other metals and sent to China. Since we what? Don't have ways to handle crime scenes? Only when we already know the official answer.

Also, know that I am not someone looking to a pin crime like this on an ethnic group. It's about Zionist, they are not only Jews. Gaza for all intents and purposes is a concentration camp. That's not a quote that's what I believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 18:36
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden

Pulitzer winner Seymour M. Hersh has suggested that Bin Laden died years before the official "STORY" which is nothing more than a gift from Obama to Obama.
‘Why create the treasure trove story?’ the retired official said. ‘The White House had to give the impression that bin Laden was still operationally important. Otherwise, why kill him? A cover story was created – that there was a network of couriers coming and going with memory sticks and instructions. All to show that bin Laden remained important.’
from the article-

"In July 2011, the Washington Post published what purported to be a summary of some of these materials. The story’s contradictions were glaring. It said the documents had resulted in more than four hundred intelligence reports within six weeks; it warned of unspecified al-Qaida plots; and it mentioned arrests of suspects ‘who are named or described in emails that bin Laden received’. The Post didn’t identify the suspects or reconcile that detail with the administration’s previous assertions that the Abbottabad compound had no internet connection. Despite their claims that the documents had produced hundreds of reports, the Post also quoted officials saying that their main value wasn’t the actionable intelligence they contained, but that they enabled ‘analysts to construct a more comprehensive portrait of al-Qaida’.
In May 2012, the Combating Terrorism Centre at West Point, a private research group, released translations it had made under a federal government contract of 175 pages of bin Laden documents. Reporters found none of the drama that had been touted in the days after the raid. Patrick Cockburn wrote about the contrast between the administration’s initial claims that bin Laden was the ‘spider at the centre of a conspiratorial web’ and what the translations actually showed: that bin Laden was ‘delusional’ and had ‘limited contact with the outside world outside his compound’.

Within weeks of the raid, I had been told by two longtime consultants to Special Operations Command, who have access to current intelligence, that the funeral aboard the Carl Vinson didn’t take place. One consultant told me that bin Laden’s remains were photographed and identified after being flown back to Afghanistan. The consultant added: ‘At that point, the CIA took control of the body. The cover story was that it had been flown to the Carl Vinson.’ The second consultant agreed that there had been ‘no burial at sea’. He added that ‘the killing of bin Laden was political theatre designed to burnish Obama’s military credentials … The Seals should have expected the political grandstanding. It’s irresistible to a politician. Bin Laden became a working asset.’ Early this year, speaking again to the second consultant, I returned to the burial at sea. The consultant laughed and said: ‘You mean, he didn’t make it to the water?’

"The retired official said there had been another complication: some members of the Seal team had bragged to colleagues and others that they had torn bin Laden’s body to pieces with rifle fire. The remains, including his head, which had only a few bullet holes in it, were thrown into a body bag and, during the helicopter flight back to Jalalabad, some body parts were tossed out over the Hindu Kush mountains – or so the Seals claimed. At the time, the retired official said, the Seals did not think their mission would be made public by Obama within a few hours: ‘If the president had gone ahead with the cover story, there would have been no need to have a funeral within hours of the killing. Once the cover story was blown, and the death was made public, the White House had a serious “Where’s the body?” problem. The world knew US forces had killed bin Laden in Abbottabad. Panic city. What to do? We need a “functional body” because we have to be able to say we identified bin Laden via a DNA analysis. It would be navy officers who came up with the “burial at sea” idea. Perfect. No body. Honourable burial following sharia law. Burial is made public in great detail, but Freedom of Information documents confirming the burial are denied for reasons of “national security”. It’s the classic unravelling of a poorly constructed cover story – it solves an immediate problem but, given the slightest inspection, there is no back-up support. There never was a plan, initially, to take the body to sea, and no burial of bin Laden at sea took place.’ The retired official said that if the Seals’ first accounts are to be believed, there wouldn’t have been much left of bin Laden to put into the sea in any case."


"The retired official disputed the authenticity of the West Point materials: ‘There is no linkage between these documents and the counterterrorism centre at the agency. No intelligence community analysis. When was the last time the CIA: 1) announced it had a significant intelligence find; 2) revealed the source; 3) described the method for processing the materials; 4) revealed the time-line for production; 5) described by whom and where the analysis was taking place, and 6) published the sensitive results before the information had been acted on? No agency professional would support this fairy tale.’
Letters

Vol. 37 No. 11 · 4 June 2015

"The allegations in Seymour M. Hersh’s article about the killing of bin Laden have received official denials and journalistic gasps similar to those that greeted his 1974 reporting on the CIA’s MH-CHAOS domestic spying programme and the revelations in his 1983 book The Price of Power about Henry Kissinger’s masterminding of the carpet-bombing of Cambodia and hiding it from the US Congress (LRB, 21 May). I suppose that’s no surprise. I’m curious to see whether the embarrassing admissions that followed and confirmed those stories arrive too. In the meantime the CIA has put out a variety of documents including a list of the books on bin Laden’s shelves. It turns out he preferred Bob Woodward to Seymour Hersh."

Colin Leonard
London NW2



http://www.truthandaction.org/michael-savage-seal-team-6-assassinated-executed/

video at link

Michael Savage: SEAL Team 6 was assassinated, executed

Why are 22 members of Navy SEAL Team 6 dead shortly after their unit killed Osama bin Laden?

Talk show host Michael Savage is relentless in his pursuit to uncover the truth about why all the members of the Seal team that ‘took out Bin Laden’, have died.

“They were killed. They were assassinated. They were executed. Or it was done because there’s a moron working inside the Defense Department who did it to them,” Savage said.

“How could we lose more men in one mission than in the entire history of the Navy SEALS, and no one has been held accountable for it?” he asked.

One father of one of the SEALs told Savage in a radio interview he believed the U.S. government sent his son and his colleagues to their deaths. Claiming that on at least three separate occasions his son grabbed him by the bicep and announced that he had prepared his will, knowing that he and his SEAL team were going to meet his demise.

“They knew,” the father states. “They knew something was up. Every one of them.”


"On CBS’s ’60 Minutes’an interview conducted by Scott Pelley with former U.S. Navy SEAL Matt Bissonnette involved in the killing of Osama Bin-Laden and author of ‘No Easy Day’ under the name of Mark Owen admits he did not recognize if the man they killed was in fact Osama Bin-Laden:


Pelley: So, after Osama bin Laden is wounded, he’s still moving. You shot him twice?

Bissonnette: A handful of times.

Pelley: A handful of times, and the SEAL in the stack behind you also shot Osama bin Laden. And at that point, his body was still?

Bissonnette: Yes.

Pelley: Did you recognize him?

Bissonnette: Nope. You know, everybody thinks it was, like, you know it’s him. No. To us, at that time, it could have been anybody. Maybe this was another brother. Maybe this is a bodyguard. Maybe, it doesn’t matter. The point is to just continue clearing.

With recent revelations confirmed by Judicial Watch and Matt Bissonnette’s testimony on Main Stream Media on the operation of May 2nd, 2011 only proves that Osama Bin-Laden’s death at the hands of US Navy Seals is questionable to say the least."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-osama-bin-laden-files-no-photos-no-videos-a-real-conspiracy-theory/5368456

Edited by Vanuatu - 06 Jun 2015 at 20:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2015 at 20:27
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There are plenty of reasons for average citizens to lie, there are also reasons why they could get an observation wrong.  Some people want to attribute all kinds of evil things to Israel, or to Bush or to bankers, so forth.  Some people hate others of certain group so much that they do not care about whether what they say is true, they just care about whether it maligns the group they hate.  Now whether the conspiracy theorists regarding 9/11 are that way, I don't know.  But, when I hear about Israelis cheering the falling of the Towers, I tend to disbelieve it.  "Anonymous" sources say so, or it must be true because Mossad spies on US, well that just doesn't cut it in my book.  (Mossad does spy on the US and the CIA or NSA probably spies on them too.)  The fact that they spy on us, does not mean that much, _except_ that we have information that they want to know both about our actions and about others actions.
It is interesting that the CIA is thought to be so powerful and efficient in supposedly "getting away" with 9/11, and yet they got the WMDs so wrong for Iraq, and they didn't even "arrange" for stockpiles to get discovered.  If they were so powerful, then why didn't they just _make_ the evidence?  btw, there is a reason why Western intelligence services got the WMDs wrong.  Iraq was saying one thing to the West (no WMDs) and saying another to Iran (yes WMDs).  They were also jerking around the inspectors and so intelligence services looked at what they were saying to Iran, and so didn't believe that there were none.



Sorry had to address these comments. On the morning of 9/11 2001 there were hundreds of calls about the "middle eastern looking men" Dan Rather reported it so did Fox news. Those reports were scrubbed. Dan Rather even said on air that Building #7 looked just like controlled demolition.
The people that you suggest are lying were just New Yorkers -like somebody's mom -who actually witnessed these men high fiving after the towers fell. CIA is powerful and inefficient, why does that seem odd to you? Do you think this game has only one player?

I remember the White House Christmas video of 2001. We got to see the beautiful tree, and Barney the dog and President Bush looking under his desk saying "Still haven't found those WMD's hehehehe"
I'm sure New Yorkers and most others found that incredibly crude. Yes Iraq was jerking Hans Blix around, and so has Iran.

Do you think the world which understands the duplicity of the CIA sees this 9/11 event the same way that American, reality TV watching, can't even name the vice president- ego maniacs do? Realize we get a scrubbed down Administration approved version of events. They know what they want to know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2015 at 01:37
There is a saying, "two men can keep a secret if one man is dead."  The point is, that people are not generally good at keeping secrets.  And the scenario with 9/11 World Trade Towers is, if a conspiracy, an awfully BIG secret.  If it is a conspiracy (or set of conspiracies), then there must be a lot of people that are in on it.  How is it that the actors of this alleged huge conspiracy have all kept silent?  We have claims of a lot of "external" reports saying "what must be the case" but we don't have accounts of conspirators, or do we?

I don't think Dan Rather is a demolitions expert, rather, Rather is a talking head who job is to fill up the time on TV, in reaction to such an event, until something of 'real' news comes out.  It was that way for the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, the Challenger accident, and the Columbia accident.  All of a sudden all channels are filled with 'news' of the event, with the talking head repeating things and grasping at straws ad nauseum. 

There are conspiracies, I find what Seymour Hersch says to be plausible, but I don't know why you say Bin Laden was dead years before the raid.  I think what Savage is saying gets him a lot of mileage on his talk show, but really he doesn't know any better (or worse) than most people.  

I found Myles Power's youtube posts to be quite interesting, on the anniversary of 9/11, he went to where the "Truthers" were and interviewed them, being quite honest about his scepticism.  He then addressed their arguments in his videos.  He also did not address arguments that they did not bring up, thinking that it would not be fair for him to 'put words in their mouths,' refuting something that was not their arguments.  He addresses the building #7 episode, I don't remember what he says about its collapse being covered by BBC beforehand.  But you can look at it if you want, again I found his stuff quite interesting, he obviously has some science background.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2015 at 03:51
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There is a saying, "two men can keep a secret if one man is dead."  The point is, that people are not generally good at keeping secrets.  And the scenario with 9/11 World Trade Towers is, if a conspiracy, an awfully BIG secret.  If it is a conspiracy (or set of conspiracies), then there must be a lot of people that are in on it.  How is it that the actors of this alleged huge conspiracy have all kept silent?  We have claims of a lot of "external" reports saying "what must be the case" but we don't have accounts of conspirators, or do we?

I don't think Dan Rather is a demolitions expert, rather, Rather is a talking head who job is to fill up the time on TV, in reaction to such an event, until something of 'real' news comes out.  It was that way for the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, the Challenger accident, and the Columbia accident.  All of a sudden all channels are filled with 'news' of the event, with the talking head repeating things and grasping at straws ad nauseum. 

There are conspiracies, I find what Seymour Hersch says to be plausible, but I don't know why you say Bin Laden was dead years before the raid.  I think what Savage is saying gets him a lot of mileage on his talk show, but really he doesn't know any better (or worse) than most people.  

I found Myles Power's youtube posts to be quite interesting, on the anniversary of 9/11, he went to where the "Truthers" were and interviewed them, being quite honest about his scepticism.  He then addressed their arguments in his videos.  He also did not address arguments that they did not bring up, thinking that it would not be fair for him to 'put words in their mouths,' refuting something that was not their arguments.  He addresses the building #7 episode, I don't remember what he says about its collapse being covered by BBC beforehand.  But you can look at it if you want, again I found his stuff quite interesting, he obviously has some science background.


Hey there, well maybe 'people' don't keep secrets well but we are talking about the government. I know it was along time ago but at least 100,000 people knew about the Manhattan Project. MKULTRA went on from pre- Nuremburg trials, 1940 and wasn't uncovered until Watergate. It seems that 20,000 documents were misfiled, ended up revealing former CIA Chief Dulles' project to use drugs to study mind control. I'd say proper motivation will keep a secret. Note during the Ford Administrations over 100,000 people got monetary settlements from the government. Watergate was a well kept secret, at least for a while.

Under most circumstances I agree with talking head theory, however 9/11 has no equal in my lifetime and I do believe even news anchors were thinking that day. Have you not seen building #7 go down? Have you not seen film of controlled demolition?

There are other sources for that specifically I will provide just need to backtrack. But the SEAL is quoted as saying he didn't know if it was really him.

If you are right about Savage then I say he is useful because he provides a format for opposing views. Opposing the corporate spin with alternative media is growing exponentially since people have access to more information, as you know.

I will look at Myles Powers thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2015 at 04:40
Okay thanks for Myles. do you always watch videos with so many cartoon sound effects? hardly serious. The experiments were done with nano thermite sulphate that cut straight through steel both vertically and laterally.

Why were samples saved for six years? Here is a better question- why didn't the government have samples? You know the Investigative body that looked into why...oh that's right there was no investigation of the evidence that was cleaned up carted off and shipped to Wolfhnd's basement.

Edited by Vanuatu - 07 Jun 2015 at 16:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2015 at 05:11
This  looks as good a time as any to bring up by reminding everyone of: CoC VII - B: 3, 5 & 8

  3. Trolling; Trolling is the act of posting witty, response-provoking comments that appear relevant in order to disrupt the discussion, annoy or create attention. Trolling can also be considered as Spam, inflammatory remarks, or annoyance.

5. Rude insults, defamatory remarks, offensive images, cursing, profanity intended as an insult towards another member, personal attacks, words of hate. Any remarks that stirs up anger. In dealing with flame wars, comments that started the flame war will have more weight in terms of violation.

    8. Negative attitude; tone of confrontation, annoyance, or contempt; disrespectful toward other members.


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http://www.globalresearch.ca/pentagon-orders-purge-of-osama-bin-ladens-death-files-from-data-bank/5342055

Apologies, not Hersh, Global Research. Do you remember this story?

"In an “authoritative” December 26, 2001, report Fox News acknowledged Osama bin Laden’s “peaceful death” in December 2001:

Usama bin Laden has died a peaceful death due to an untreated lung complication, the Pakistan Observer reported, citing a Taliban leader who allegedly attended the funeral of the Al Qaeda leader.

“The Coalition troops are engaged in a mad search operation but they would never be able to fulfill their cherished goal of getting Usama alive or dead,” the source said.

Bin Laden, according to the source, was suffering from a serious lung complication and succumbed to the disease in mid-December, in the vicinity of the Tora Bora mountains. The source claimed that bin Laden was laid to rest honorably in his last abode and his grave was made as per his Wahabi belief.

About 30 close associates of bin Laden in Al Qaeda, including his most trusted and personal bodyguards, his family members and some “Taliban friends,” attended the funeral rites. A volley of bullets was also fired to pay final tribute to the “great leader.”

The Taliban source who claims to have seen bin Laden’s face before burial said “he looked pale … but calm, relaxed and confident.”

Asked whether bin Laden had any feelings of remorse before death, the source vehemently said “no.” Instead, he said, bin Laden was proud that he succeeded in his mission of igniting awareness amongst Muslims about hegemonistic designs and conspiracies of “pagans” against Islam. Bin Laden, he said, held the view that the sacrifice of a few hundred people in Afghanistan was nothing, as those who laid their lives in creating an atmosphere of resistance will be adequately rewarded by Almighty Allah.

When asked where bin Laden was buried, the source said, “I am sure that like other places in Tora Bora, that particular place too must have vanished.”
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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