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Circumcision is haram.

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    Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 21:12
God is perfect, everything he creates is perfect... according to Muslims.  So why do they defile the male penis?  Surely an affront to Allah the akbar, the rahman, the rahim.


"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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No, only God is perfect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2012 at 22:30
Why do you brush your teeth? comb your hair? wear clothes?
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I think the thing is there need to be a surgical operation to correct male body. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 00:01
Why can't we all just be eunuchs? That way we could never offend God(s) by indulging in temptations of the flesh.
http://xkcd.com/15/



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 01:06
If we didn't had any animal like desires like hunger, thirst and sex than we would still offend God with our hunger for power thus with vanity. But if we wouldn't commit anything but good than what would be point of being human?
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Sex = good. Be fruitful and multiply, no matter what condition your equipment is in. Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 01:35
Originally posted by The Hidden Face The Hidden Face wrote:

I think the thing is there need to be a surgical operation to correct male body. 

But nothing suggests it is correcting, in the OT it is suggested that it is to seal a covenant.

The Islamic texts merely state that it is in imitation of Abraham (pbuh), although the Arabic name for it does suggest it's about cleanliness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 01:38
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Why can't we all just be eunuchs? That way we could never offend God(s) by indulging in temptations of the flesh.

Wrong religion, perhaps you mean Christianity?

Islam encourages people to fulfill their desires (in a guided manner of course), and considers sex to be an act of worship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 04:08
Having a foreskin is damn good fun. Any religion which in this day and age of good hygiene would attempt to take away a man's foreskin is as heartless as an adolescent stealing ice cream from a baby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 04:26
Don't get too melodramatic Constantine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 14:39
On the subject I can seriously recommend God: a biography by Jack Miles.
http://tinyurl.com/8a4d6bx
 
Amazon lets you
 search inside the book and look for 'circumcision'. But the book's more interesting than just that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 15:58
Among all the trivial things in life nothing nears circumcission in stirring up passions and for no good reason.
 
First of all only jews mandate circumcission. In Islam circumcission is a right of the new born male baby. If the father doesn't want to circumcise him according the majority opinion he, not the child, will get a sin and its considered a trivial one.
 
Second, people cicumcised well before any of the so called "Abrahamic" religions came into existence. Egyptians done it and so were others. Arabs and Semites in general did it well before it was mandated in their religions and it was considered a right of passage. Indeed even today Arab tribes in Southern Arabia only circumcise their men on the wedding night or when they turn 15.
 
Finally about hygene. If your hygene is good most is not so much and believe me, having seen alot of people from other cultures, hygene is not on the top of their list. The smell is so awful that no one can bear it by them. Seeing the British series "An Idiot Abroad" I was even more convinced at that.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2012 at 20:18

With regard to practicality, circumcision was commonplace among British troops in the desert in both world wars and in between, for both comfort (apparently) and hygiene reasons. That of course meant adult circumcision. In the '20s and '30s it was also commonplace in England at birth as a hygiene and preventative procedure, rather like having your tonsils out.

Maybe the British fought so hard against invasion in 1940 because they were afraid the Nazis would take them for Jews? Ermm 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2012 at 09:23
Just to make this thread a bit more intellectual:
 
Circumcision was pretty well ubiquitious in Australia 40 years ago, just as it was in Britain. Now, while still very common, it is not always done. Why?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2012 at 09:55
To put things in perspective, only about 1/4 of baby boys in Australia today undergo a circumcision and the number is dropping. Omar is right about it being pretty much the norm 40 years ago, however.

Circumcision rose to prominence in Australia and many other parts of the Anglosphere in the 50s and 60s due to the advice of prominent paediatricians such as Dr Spock who wrote in the 40s that circumcision was of tremendous value to boys provided it be performed within a few days of birth. In many ways it was simply a parenting fad. And like all fads, it passed.

Spock later retracted his advocacy for the procedure and went on to recommend against it, describing it as traumatic, painful and unnecessary.

My own father (born in the 50s) was a recipient of the practical application of Dr Spock's early advice, while I was not. In Australia and Britain the practice is now far more uncommon than common, and I believe that in Britain the NHS has stopped funding for the procedure as they do not consider it medically necessary or wise. America has not dropped off as drastically and 50-60% of baby boys will undergo the procedure, but the number is dropping.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2012 at 11:29
Actually I think in Australia now it is getting pretty hard to even get it done.

It seems only specialists (usually Muslims or Jews) actually perform the procedure.

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A housemate I lived with 5 years back had it done as an adult, and I have known others in adulthood who have requested it and had it performed by a urologist. I have noticed that with a significant number of males (maybe one in 12) a problem can develop where the foreskin is not large enough to retract from the glans of an erect penis. This can cause discomfort during sex and circumcision is one option to fix that.

As for babies, I'm not too certain what facilities are currently available for them. But non Jews and non Muslims I know who have had children have not needed to take their boys to religious congregations to get the procedure done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2012 at 13:39
The reason why circumcission rose to prominence in Anglophone countries was their painful experience in desert/trench wars of 1914 as one of our old forumers (Sparten where ever you are) pointed out in a similar thread. One of the most common types of trench/desert diseases was urinary tract infection. Since it killed the last Pope I think its pretty damn serious when not treated.
 
As Graham pointed out circumcission was recommended for troops fighting in the NA and Arabian deserts in WWII and the practice migrated with it.
 
In the US it still remains a white phenomenon. Blacks/hispanics (who are now making almost 40% of all newborns if I am not mistaken) who didn't participate in both wars and come from different cultural backgrounds still don't practice it although whites still do as the vote in San Francisco proved some months ago.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2012 at 07:51
Originally posted by Mukarrib Mukarrib wrote:

Why do you brush your teeth? comb your hair? wear clothes?
 
But my parents did not remove my teeth when I was an infant, and I do not cut away my hair so it never comes back, and I do not remove my skin. Circumcision is irreversible and it is to take away a part of your body. And all because of some old superstition.
 
If adults choose to do it, it is one thing, but to enforce it on small children is just bizarre.


Edited by Carcharodon - 24 Jan 2012 at 07:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukarrib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2012 at 08:14
Some people do treat their hair, to stop it coming back. Likewise some extract all their teeth and replace them with false synthetic ones.

It's better for kids to be circumcised when it will not effect them. If they do it in adulthood, then it is much riskier.

If you don't believe in circumcision, then don't get your kids circumcised, simple.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2012 at 08:20
Originally posted by Mukarrib Mukarrib wrote:

Some people do treat their hair, to stop it coming back. Likewise some extract all their teeth and replace them with false synthetic ones.
 
Yes, there are people who do all strange kind of things. That does not make it better to cut the penises of babies for some superstitious reasons.
 
Religious superstition still has too prominent place in society.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2012 at 13:37
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

The reason why circumcission rose to prominence in Anglophone countries was their painful experience in desert/trench wars of 1914 as one of our old forumers (Sparten where ever you are) pointed out in a similar thread. One of the most common types of trench/desert diseases was urinary tract infection. Since it killed the last Pope I think its pretty damn serious when not treated.


Hi Al Jassas.

You raise an interesting point here but I am still left with some doubts. Looking back on my own family history and that of my nation as a whole, it seems that my generation is largely uncircumcised, my father's was largely circumcised, and my grandfather's uncircumcised. Despite the fact that Australians experienced the full force of trench and desert warfare during WWI, it was not until after WWII that circumcision became the norm here.

It doesn't make sense to me that men would come back from the war and sit down with their expecting wives and say "well Margaret, I had the worst urinary tract infection in the trenches, and I'm not having my little boy go through that. Let's give him the snip when he arrives".

These sorts of decisions are typically made when the government and prominent health care professionals team up to create awareness and spread a message aimed at getting people to change their behaviour. I see this happening more after WWII with the means of mass communication available.

As for the Pope dying from a urinary tract infection, the man was 84. At that age anything can kill you.

Quote Finally about hygene. If your hygene is good most is not so much and believe me, having seen alot of people from other cultures, hygene is not on the top of their list. The smell is so awful that no one can bear it by them. Seeing the British series "An Idiot Abroad" I was even more convinced at that.


Concerning hygiene, there are some serious points that need to be considered.

If you are not circumcised, correct hygiene is not at all difficult to follow. When you urinate, be sure to retract the foreskin (not at all difficult) and give your member a decent shake at the end. When you shower, also retract the foreskin and wash the glans. That's all there is to it, it's very simple and the area remains clean.

The problem for many people is that we are a generation of uncircumcised men whose fathers were circumcised. So the above advice was never provided to us because our fathers never needed to inherit this knowledge. I ended up learning this from my doctor in my mid teens.

Sex education also needs improvement. When I underwent sex education at about 12, we were shown a US documentary from the 70s which explained the varying range of things a young man might need to be aware of as they go through puberty. It wasn't exactly easy to relate to, with these American boys on screen wearing their flared jeans and massive afro haircuts. Because it was an American documentary from the 70s, they automatically made the assumption that all the boys watching would be circumcised. And so penile hygiene was never even discussed. This, naturally, needs to change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2012 at 13:46
Originally posted by Mukarrib Mukarrib wrote:

Why do you brush your teeth? comb your hair? wear clothes?


You are comparing brushing teeth to circumcision?  You could only compare the removal of teeth to circumcision since you can still clean your penis with or without a foreskin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2012 at 13:47
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

No, only God is perfect.


Exactly so you are questioning his perfect judgement by removing something he added.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2012 at 13:48
Originally posted by Mukarrib Mukarrib wrote:

Some people do treat their hair, to stop it coming back. Likewise some extract all their teeth and replace them with false synthetic ones.

It's better for kids to be circumcised when it will not effect them. If they do it in adulthood, then it is much riskier.

If you don't believe in circumcision, then don't get your kids circumcised, simple.


Yes, you're right - but I am scared my wife's parents might do it behind my back.  if they do then I am having them charged with grievous bodily harm  since the act is one of mutilation and it is not clinically available in the Uk and has to be done by some smelly filthy cleric's hands.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2012 at 13:51
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

The reason why circumcission rose to prominence in Anglophone countries was their painful experience in desert/trench wars of 1914 as one of our old forumers (Sparten where ever you are) pointed out in a similar thread. One of the most common types of trench/desert diseases was urinary tract infection. Since it killed the last Pope I think its pretty damn serious when not treated.


Hi Al Jassas.

You raise an interesting point here but I am still left with some doubts. Looking back on my own family history and that of my nation as a whole, it seems that my generation is largely uncircumcised, my father's was largely circumcised, and my grandfather's uncircumcised. Despite the fact that Australians experienced the full force of trench and desert warfare during WWI, it was not until after WWII that circumcision became the norm here.

It doesn't make sense to me that men would come back from the war and sit down with their expecting wives and say "well Margaret, I had the worst urinary tract infection in the trenches, and I'm not having my little boy go through that. Let's give him the snip when he arrives".

These sorts of decisions are typically made when the government and prominent health care professionals team up to create awareness and spread a message aimed at getting people to change their behaviour. I see this happening more after WWII with the means of mass communication available.

As for the Pope dying from a urinary tract infection, the man was 84. At that age anything can kill you.

Quote Finally about hygene. If your hygene is good most is not so much and believe me, having seen alot of people from other cultures, hygene is not on the top of their list. The smell is so awful that no one can bear it by them. Seeing the British series "An Idiot Abroad" I was even more convinced at that.


Concerning hygiene, there are some serious points that need to be considered.

If you are not circumcised, correct hygiene is not at all difficult to follow. When you urinate, be sure to retract the foreskin (not at all difficult) and give your member a decent shake at the end. When you shower, also retract the foreskin and wash the glans. That's all there is to it, it's very simple and the area remains clean.

The problem for many people is that we are a generation of uncircumcised men whose fathers were circumcised. So the above advice was never provided to us because our fathers never needed to inherit this knowledge. I ended up learning this from my doctor in my mid teens.

Sex education also needs improvement. When I underwent sex education at about 12, we were shown a US documentary from the 70s which explained the varying range of things a young man might need to be aware of as they go through puberty. It wasn't exactly easy to relate to, with these American boys on screen wearing their flared jeans and massive afro haircuts. Because it was an American documentary from the 70s, they automatically made the assumption that all the boys watching would be circumcised. And so penile hygiene was never even discussed. This, naturally, needs to change.


Using Mukarrib's rhetoric to demonstrate, why should you not clean your knob as you clean your teeth?  We all know if you don't clean your teeth they will probably rot and cause you horrible difficulties.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2012 at 14:05
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Using Mukarrib's rhetoric to demonstrate, why should you not clean your knob as you clean your teeth?  We all know if you don't clean your teeth they will probably rot and cause you horrible difficulties.


We have to take care of ourselves, that much is obvious. Be it dental hygiene, body fat percentage, toxin intake or cleaning your cock.

Circumcision does make it less likely that you will contract a veneral disease, as the lack of a foreskin makes the chance of blood tranfer via lesions about 50% compared to having a foreskin (because the flesh on the foreskin itself is softer than on the glans). So if you are the sort of person who has frequent unprotected sex with carriers of venereal disease, circumcision may be a wise move. But of course, most of us do not.

Personally I spend 20 times as much time dealing with dental hygiene each day than I do dealing with penile hygiene. It really is not a difficult nor onerous task.


Edited by Constantine XI - 24 Jan 2012 at 14:08
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As to the original post, I feel I should reply to that. Having a foreskin is not like having an appendix or coccyx. We are born with it because we are meant to, it serves a purpose, it isn't a defunct part of evolution. It essentially protects the glans of the penis, which is by far the most sensitive area in the male body, from harm. This part of the male form by far contains more nerve endings by area than any other.

We have it because it is something which from an evolutionary point of view is useful. Even if only 1 in every hundred men should suffer some injury to that part of their body, having a foreskin on that area will make a massive difference both in terms of suffering and in terms of being able to continue to reproduce.

I can certainly understand why cultures living in a desert environment hundreds of years ago would remove it. I would even call that a wise move considering that, on balance, doing so probably saved more lives and resulted in less health problems than if it had not been done. But of course the world has changed, we now have indoor plumbing, and we can reassess the usefulness of the procedure.


Edited by Constantine XI - 24 Jan 2012 at 14:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2012 at 15:30
In anycase, I don't know about judaism but here is why circumcission is mandated (but not as I said according to much of the scholarly opinion a must):
 
As for hygene, hygene is never hard to follow, the problem is will people follow it? I dout a guy peeing 6-10 times a day would take the time.
 
Finally about trauma, circumcission for children especially newborns is not only almost perfectly safe, rate of failure if done by a professional is less than piercing if I am not mistaken, with new technologies even painless. Parents have just as much of a right to circumcise as to pierce their children's ears.
 
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Edited by Al Jassas - 24 Jan 2012 at 15:35
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