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Clovis your descendant?

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Apr 2014 at 03:36
http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/discovery-ancient-stone-tools-brazil-challenges-0988765

Archaeologists have announced the discovery of stone tools in Brazil which they say prove that ancient humans arrived in the Americas long before the Clovis people, upending the predominant theory of how the continent was settled.

According to current perspectives, the Clovis people arrived in the Americas from Asia about 13,000 – 15,000 years ago. However, researchers found stone tools embedded in a rock shelter where prehistoric humans once lived, which have been dated to 22,000 years.

“If they’re right, and there’s a great possibility that they are, that will change everything we know about the settlement of the Americas,” said Walter Neves, an evolutionary anthropologist at the University of Sao Paulo.

If these people are correct, it puts paid to existing theories about both Solutrean and Clovis origins of indigenous Americans. In fact, it would make the Clovis people descendants of these "originals".
 
Having their findings disputed is nothing new for the archaeologists working at Serra de Capivara. Dr Guidon, the Brazilian archaeologists who pioneered the excavations, asserted more than two decades ago, that her team had found evidence in the form of charcoal from hearth fires that humans had lived in the region about 48,000 years ago. Prior to that, her team had found remnants of ancient fires dating back 100,000 years. Her theory is that the first humans arrived in the Americas not overland from Asia, but by boat from Africa.  But that is just too much for some scholars to swallow."
 
 
 
The next debate will surely be precisely who these people were.


Edited by toyomotor - 08 Apr 2014 at 03:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2014 at 03:38
Brazilian anthropologists are usually very exaggerated. I want to see real hard proofs before believing in theirs claims.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2014 at 03:41
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Brazilian anthropologists are usually very exaggerated. I want to see real hard proofs before believing in theirs claims.
 
 
That's fair enough. I'm always of a similar mindset.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2014 at 08:11
Pinguin:
 
Nevertheless, if it turns out to be true, it turns the whole settlement of the Americas on its head.
 
Are you aware that there's also a theory out there that the Americas could have been settled out of Africa? I don't give that much credence either, but, you never know.
 
Regardless of this, I still favour the "out of Asia" and possibly Europe theory.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2014 at 08:48
pinguin:
If we accept the information is correct, just for a moment, who could these people have been?
 
Clovis were AMH, and it's before them, so could they have been Neanderthals? Could they have been an admixture between Neanderthals and AMH?
 
Could there have been Denisovans in the Americas?
 
I found this article from National Geographic:
 
"When our ancestors first migrated out of Africa around 60,000 years ago, they were not alone. At least two of our hominid cousins had made the same journey—Neanderthals and Denisovans. Neanderthals, the better known of the two species, left Africa about 300,000 years ago and settled in Europe and parts of western Asia. The Denisovans are a much more recent addition to the human family tree. In 2008, paleoanthropologists digging in a cave in southern Siberia unearthed a 40,000-year-old adult tooth and an exquisitely preserved fossilized pinkie bone that had belonged to a young girl who was between five and seven years old when she died."
 
So, I'm theorising that if Denisovans reached Southern Siberia, couldn't they have kept on going to the Americas?
 


Edited by toyomotor - 11 Apr 2014 at 08:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2014 at 17:11
we don't know it as yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2014 at 02:52
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

pinguin:
 
So, I'm theorising that if Denisovans reached Southern Siberia, couldn't they have kept on going to the Americas?
 
No, we don't know it yet, but I think it's not a bad theory.
 
If these people predate the Clovis Culture and are not Neanderthals, who do you think they could have been?
 
Where do you think they could have come from?
 
Did you know that there are also theories that the Americas could have been first populated from people crossing the ocean?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2014 at 16:47
There was a population stuck in Beringia during 10.000 years (a very recent discovery). Therefore, obviously, if anyone reached the Americas before the Clovis, the more likely candidate also came from Beringia.
I don't know why the past of the Americas is so much attractive for myth makers. It is time to stop those lies for good and start looking for the truth, which is a lot more interesting than those wild fantasies.


Edited by pinguin - 13 Apr 2014 at 16:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 02:59
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

There was a population stuck in Beringia during 10.000 years (a very recent discovery). Therefore, obviously, if anyone reached the Americas before the Clovis, the more likely candidate also came from Beringia.
I don't know why the past of the Americas is so much attractive for myth makers. It is time to stop those lies for good and start looking for the truth, which is a lot more interesting than those wild fantasies.
 
 
Agreed. But there are revisionists and fantasists under every bush.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2014 at 02:05
Sure, particularly in the topic of settling the Americas. I don't know why this topic is full of pseudoscience given the facts are quite clear by now, and it is even possible to trace the history of the Americas with relative precision in an horizon of thousand of years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2014 at 06:20
Maybe, but people keep falling over old bones, science keeps making progress in determining age, origin etc., and so there will always be discussion.

Whether or not it is myth remains to be seen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2014 at 14:45
I can agree with you on that. Science will have the last word.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2014 at 14:57
Hooray ***k, you finally agree with me on something.

I'm feeling faint.

I need a LARGE glass of Red Wine.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2014 at 12:07
This report from Ancient Origins tends to confirm the theory that, possibly AMH, inhabited the Americas prior to Clovis.
 
"Human Origins in the Americas

Scientists made an incredible discovery in a streambed in southern Uruguay – a set of 30,000-year-old fossilised animals which show distinctive marks left by human tools.  The immense significance of the discovery is that mainstream archaeology says that humans began arriving in the Americas between 13,000 and 15,000 years ago, and the Clovis people of North and Central America are generally considered the "first Americans."  But these results show that humans inhabited the Americas at least 15,000 years before previously thought."

So, who were these people?
 
Is it possible that they could have been part of one of the migrations out of Africa which didn't linger on Beringia?
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 21 May 2014 at 03:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2014 at 04:47
Baloney. What for confirmation. Some scientists in Brazil and Uruguay like to make wild claims that fall down afterwards.

All you should be aware is that so far there is not an early migration, and your beloved Australoid in the Americas aren't confirmed at all.




Edited by pinguin - 21 May 2014 at 04:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2014 at 06:35
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Baloney. What for confirmation. Some scientists in Brazil and Uruguay like to make wild claims that fall down afterwards.

All you should be aware is that so far there is not an early migration, and your beloved Australoid in the Americas aren't confirmed at all.


 
 
But, mon ami, you are wrong. It has been confirmed that there was more than migration out of Africa, and likewise more than migration into the Americas.
 
There were people in the Americas before Clovis!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2014 at 15:01
More than one immigration "out of Africa" doesn't mean every one of those expansions reached the Americas! Come on! Homo Erectus didn't reach the Americas, nor Homo Neanderthal... Only Homo Sapiens Sapiens reach the New World, and so far it is known, only Siberians related Beringians did it. All the rest is fantasy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 02:27
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

More than one immigration "out of Africa" doesn't mean every one of those expansions reached the Americas! Come on! Homo Erectus didn't reach the Americas, nor Homo Neanderthal... Only Homo Sapiens Sapiens reach the New World, and so far it is known, only Siberians related Beringians did it. All the rest is fantasy.
 
We don't know for certain that Neanderthals and others didn't reach the Americas.
 
Yesterdays fantasy is todays fact, I've said that before, many times. As each new discovery is made, we learn more about the world and its people and it could be only a matter of time before Neanderthal signs are found in the Americas.
 
The finding of ancient animal bones with signs of having been killed by Homo, of one species or another, and the fact that the animal bones are pre Clovis, surely indicates that someone was in the Americas prior to Clovis.
 
I agree that proving that more than one migration OoA took place doesn't prove that the people all reached the Americas, but obviously some did.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 03:28
Fellow, the recent studies on Beringia are previous to Clovis. And "pre-Clovis" doesn't mean Australid.
As I keep repeating, please hold your fantasies.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2014 at 08:21
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Fellow, the recent studies on Beringia are previous to Clovis. And "pre-Clovis" doesn't mean Australid.
As I keep repeating, please hold your fantasies.

 
Now, my dear chap, no one has suggested anything to the contrary, and in this thread we're only looking at the possibilities unearthed by recent research.
 
If you agree that there were people in the Americas before Clovis, who were they?
 
Were they AMH or Neanderthal?
 
Bear in mind that the bones discovered pre-date the time in which ancient Americans first arrived in the Americas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2014 at 02:28
The simpler explanation, if there was another wave, is that they also came from Beringia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2014 at 08:44
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The simpler explanation, if there was another wave, is that they also came from Beringia.
 
No argument there. I think it's more than fair to say that during the relevant period, all humans entering the Americas would have arrived via Beringia.
 
It was much later that some Europeans arrived by sea, and they didn't stay very long, as far as we know, and the people who did stay, you wish hadn't.
 
Just a small point on the side, two or three years ago we didn't know about the occupation of what is now called Beringia, although we did know that people came by way of the small gap between Siberia and Alaska. As the result of research and increased technology we found out about the occupation by humans of Beringia over a period of about 10,000 years.
 
Each new discovery adds to our knowledge of human development.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2014 at 05:43
Certainly. Science has advanced quite a bit in this topic in the last 20 years. Today we know quite a bit more about the past than in any other time.
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