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Coin points to Early Chinese Trade With Africa

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 14:18
Certainly. But Zheng He weren't travels of discovery at all. The routes were well known.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 14:19
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Certainly. But Zheng He weren't travels of discovery at all. The routes were well known.
 
Yes, indeed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 14:25
It is also interesting to speculate about what would have happened if China would have kept up and expanded its policy of trade, diplomacy and establishing of Ming sovereignity in the Indian Ocean. What would have happened if China had implemented a more aggressive, and longer lasting, approach and taken control (and kept it) of important ports and other points of support in the ocean? Could they have kept the Portuguese out? How would the history looked like today?

Edited by Carcharodon - 07 Dec 2010 at 14:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 15:39
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Yes, it is ofcourse difficult to prove that the coins, and ceramics, found in Mambrui actually come from Zheng Hes fleet. But at least the coin is right in time. And the type of coin is known to have been carried by envoys of the emperor.
It shall be exciting to see what further investigations will show. It seems that the Chinese has invested around 3 million dollars in this project.
 
 
 
Were any student of mine foolish enough to cite a news medium as an authoritative "source" there would be hell to pay come red ink time! Even the simplest numismatist knows that in 1553 the Chia Ching emperor issued a voluminous amount of bronze cash bearing the throne names of all of his predecessors beginning with Hung Wu!
 
Frederick Schjoth. Chinese Currency. London: 1976. pp. 48ff
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 15:42
PS: It is not interesting "to speculate", Carch, and if you wish to do so get thee to the nunnery that is the thread known as "Alternative History".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 15:57
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Yes, it is ofcourse difficult to prove that the coins, and ceramics, found in Mambrui actually come from Zheng Hes fleet. But at least the coin is right in time. And the type of coin is known to have been carried by envoys of the emperor.
It shall be exciting to see what further investigations will show. It seems that the Chinese has invested around 3 million dollars in this project.
 
 
 
Were any student of mine foolish enough to cite a news medium as an authoritative "source" there would be hell to pay come red ink time! Even the simplest numismatist knows that in 1553 the Chia Ching emperor issued a voluminous amount of bronze cash bearing the throne names of all of his predecessors beginning with Hung Wu!
 
Frederick Schjoth. Chinese Currency. London: 1976. pp. 48ff
 
 
 
Well, there was not only coins at the dig but also contemporary porcelain. Also there are other ways to date archaeological sites.
And I presume that professor Qin Dashu can see what kind of coin he holds in his hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 16:09
Carch, no one questions his ability to recognize a Chinese coin or even porcelain shards. What is being questioned is the frame of reference he is looking at them through. Rising Asian powers have, in the not too distant past, used archeology to build myths upon which to base territorial claims. Though China is unlikely to have any territorial designs upon East Africa, it is certainly interested in trade there. It would not unimaginable to find a few isolated voyages trumped up into a long history of Chinese-African trade relations harking back to some imagined golden age, before those 'greedy Europeans' ruined everything.

Just saying....  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 16:23
As iterated long, long ago, presence does not constitute proof of "contemporary" anything other than a nebulous "someone". To assert that such trifles constitutes proof Zheng He was at Mombasa is highly unprofessional and I doubt Professor Qin would assert such in a professional paper. Of course, one has to keep in mind the impact of contemporary politics on the quality of Chinese "scholarship".  Any and all fancy can not contradict the summation found here with respect to the "sailing" interlude. Besides, the Chinese were not venturing to "unknown" territories even then...think Yuan Dynasty!
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 16:25
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Carch, no one questions his ability to recognize a Chinese coin or even porcelain shards. What is being questioned is the frame of reference he is looking at them through. Rising Asian powers have, in the not too distant past, used archeology to build myths upon which to base territorial claims. Though China is unlikely to have any territorial designs upon East Africa, it is certainly interested in trade there. It would not unimaginable to find a few isolated voyages trumped up into a long history of Chinese-African trade relations harking back to some imagined golden age, before those 'greedy Europeans' ruined everything.

Just saying....  
 
As I wrote before there is ofcourse no conclusive evidence that the findings can be connected with Zheng Hes expeditions but the thought is interesting. We must await more results to know what is what. I am looking forward for the reports and final publications from the excavations.
 
And about the propaganda part of the archaeological expedition: Chinese archaeologists are mostly not more propagandistic than their western counterparts. At least not nowadays.


Edited by Carcharodon - 07 Dec 2010 at 16:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 16:27
Speak for yourself Carch, oh ye of much agiprop!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 16:31
You should just know the amount of strange philosophical and ideological outpourings in some parts of todays western archeological world.
 
Especially among some of the worst Po Mo people Smile


Edited by Carcharodon - 07 Dec 2010 at 16:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 21:37
There you go again...trying to create a diversion and blaring about the post modern when if we are to search for examples of Po Mo culture one could not but put forth the countless posts penned by the Great White Beast on AE!
 
Here is a brief definition of the Po Mo: a tendency in contemporary culture characterized by the rejection of objective truth and global cultural narrative or meta-narrative.
 
What is the objective truth here in terms of global consequences? The voyages of Zheng He has no consequences in the meta-narrative of trade and cultural development in the Indian Ocean nor did they serve as a catalyst provoking Chinese curiosity over maritime exploits. As with the Vikings, what we have is but an interesting footnote irrelevant to the historical narrative leading to the modern world. Even tiny Portugal had a greater impact just some 65 years later on the Somali coast than the vaunted "expedition" you are putting forth. After all. they did not leave just stray coins and instead erected citadels that stand to this day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 22:15
Doctor G:  In re:  " Even tiny Portugal had a greater impact just some 65 years later on the Somali coast than the vaunted "expedition" you are putting forth. After all. they did not leave just stray coins and instead erected citadels that stand to this day."

Indeed, they left several groups of mixed race and mixed culture peoples who continue to have an impact in their regions. Goans in India. Macanese in China, Burghers and Colombos in Sri Lanka. Why, even Michael Ondaatje, despite the obvious dutch name.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2010 at 09:47
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

  There you go again...trying to create a diversion and blaring about the post modern when if we are to search for examples of Po Mo culture one could not but put forth the countless posts penned by the Great White Beast on AE!
 
Hardly any PoMo from me.
But let us in this context also not forget the many historians, and some archaeologists, that have an anitquated, conservative, yes even fossilized, conception of world history and who pass it on as objective truth. That kind of schoolars are so unaware of their bias that they do not even recognize it.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 What is the objective truth here in terms of global consequences? The voyages of Zheng He has no consequences in the meta-narrative of trade and cultural development in the Indian Ocean nor did they serve as a catalyst provoking Chinese curiosity over maritime exploits.
 
As a matter of fact the Zheng He voyages had indeed an impact especially in the South East Asian and Indonesian worlds. After the travels the Chinese presence in this areas increased and also a cultural, and even spiritual, heritage can actually be seen still today.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

As with the Vikings, what we have is but an interesting footnote irrelevant to the historical narrative leading to the modern world.
 
Well, if you think that you are not really aware of their impact in places like the British isles or in the east (Russia and todays Ucraine).
 
But that is perhaps another thread.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2010 at 19:47
Carch, in re your: As a matter of fact the Zheng He voyages had indeed an impact especially in the South East Asian and Indonesian worlds. After the travels the Chinese presence in this areas increased and also a cultural, and even spiritual, heritage can actually be seen still today."

While Zheng He's travels were known to the Chinese, they did not result in thousands of Chinese moving into the area to trade. That took place in the wake of the Qin dynasty's overthrow of the Ming, which send many Ming loyalists fleeing to SEA countries, where their military and administrative skills were welcomed, and resulted in the permanent establishment of colonies, whose roots were reflected in Chinese Associations. For an example of one such Chinese, you might google "Mac Cu'u", who was merely one example of the phenomenon. But as for any cultural and spiritual heritage, this is confined to the members of the overseas Chinese populations alone. Vietnam is geographically SEA, but its cultural heritage, while largely derived from China's, predates Zheng He by a millennium. Straights Chinese roots also go back to the fall of the Ming, and Singapore's majority Chinese arrived after Raffles, but the rest of SEA has been far more influenced by Indian culture. One major Chinese influence in Southern Vietnam was their commercial practices, which many of their Vietnamese neighbors duplicated, becoming merchants in their own right. All of this had very little to do with the voyages of Zheng He.     

If you can pull up Choi Byung Wook's "Southern Vietnam under the Reign of Minh Mang (1820-1841)" on Amazon and read pages 35-41, you should have an idea of just how varied the Chinese community was in SEA, and when they got there.


Edited by lirelou - 08 Dec 2010 at 19:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2010 at 20:38
Rather than reproduce the instance of the Po Mo busily at work in the post above let us look at the most glaring excerpts:
 
Carcharadon wrote:
But let us in this context also not forget the many historians, and some archaeologists, that have an anitquated, conservative, yes even fossilized, conception of world history and who pass it on as objective truth. That kind of schoolars are so unaware of their bias that they do not even recognize it.
 
Besides being treated to a sterling example of the glittering generality in rhetorical writing, just who are these "many" and "some"? If anyone practices such dither it is normally found in the constructs of the New Left, who still can not tear themselves away from the hoary Marxist model crowned by Determinism. Talk about fossilization, there can be no better example than the ravers fixed to dialectical materialism. Carch does a marvelous impression of one by bringing out the tired adjectives typical of the Po Mo in their shouts of materia vincit.
 
With regard to Zheng He and any possible relationship between these voyages and any historical consequences, I believe Lirelou has more or less exposed the ya da-ya da placed on public display.
 
As for the bit about "Vikings" well given that the term itself is an invention of early English romanticism--yes Carch, the term does not enter the English language until the late 18th century--we can hardly be speaking of either a people or a culture...not even in old Norse! Even good old Wikipedia admits this truth. You can go beserker all you want, but within historiography the representatives of the Norse ethne have their proper identities and are discussed directly under those terms.
 
Perhaps you are in need of "religion" here since by know it is more than apparent where the operative words are found: see Proverbs 26:11
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 08 Dec 2010 at 20:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2010 at 22:53
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

As for the bit about "Vikings" well given that the term itself is an invention of early English romanticism--yes Carch, the term does not enter the English language until the late 18th century--we can hardly be speaking of either a people or a culture...not even in old Norse!


So, you change a term and a people magically stop to exist? Confused So Toltecs and Olmecs never existed because the weren't called that way? Confused You have a fantastic illogical reasoning.
If they were called Norse, Vikings or Titumkis is irrelevant. They had a role in history and the rumours of lands further west certainly reached Columbus ears. There you go.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2010 at 23:52

Apparently I was mistaken in denying that penguins might squawk like parrots! FYI Pinguin all of the fault lies in your ignorance since "sailors" do not represent either ethnes nor states. There never existed a "Viking" kingdom and much less a political entity carrying any formative impact whatsoever. As usual, because your feathers have been singed you begin squawking utter nonsense that utterly discredits any and all possibilities--remote as they might be--that you might have a positive contribution to any discussion. It is more than apparent that you wish to undertake a personal vendetta even if you do not have the slightest inkling of the subject at hand. Better stick to Hal Foster's Prince Valiant as your source material since the mileu of the comic strip suits you to a "P"!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2010 at 02:37
Your arguments are so weak, drgonzaga.
Everybody knows Vikings weren't a state. Even a high school student knows Vikings were the Norse that practised piracy at summer times, and that aren't representative of all Norse society.
So, what's your point now?

The Norse reached the Americas? Yes, they did.

The Norse keep that knowledge in Europe? Yes, they did, that's how we can read theirs Sagas.

Were Norse expeditions important? Yes they were.

Did Norse expeditions influenced later European travels to the New World? Certainly they did, at least there is a chance they did.

I am using an structured and logical style to develop arguments. Please try to follow the style, so your confusing arguments are readable.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2010 at 11:32
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

---
While Zheng He's travels were known to the Chinese, they did not result in thousands of Chinese moving into the area to trade. That took place in the wake of the Qin dynasty's overthrow of the Ming, which send many Ming loyalists fleeing to SEA countries, where their military and administrative skills were welcomed, and resulted in the permanent establishment of colonies, whose roots were reflected in Chinese Associations.
---
 

I do not believe Zheng Hes voyages alone led to all the immigration or cultural influence of Chinese, but it had some impact in for example Malacka and also Indonesia. Interesting enough later there has even become some cult of Zheng He and temples are still built in his honour.

 
After all, Zheng Hes voyages created or expanded political and cultural contacts over a rather wide area.


Edited by Carcharodon - 09 Dec 2010 at 12:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2010 at 11:46
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Besides being treated to a sterling example of the glittering generality in rhetorical writing, just who are these "many" and "some"? If anyone practices such dither it is normally found in the constructs of the New Left, who still can not tear themselves away from the hoary Marxist model crowned by Determinism. Talk about fossilization, there can be no better example than the ravers fixed to dialectical materialism. Carch does a marvelous impression of one by bringing out the tired adjectives typical of the Po Mo in their shouts of materia vincit.
 
Well, conservatives often are under the impression that they represent the most objective world view. Some of them can not discern that their alleged objectivity also is a social construct and is influenced by ideology in the same way as many other ways of looking at history.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 With regard to Zheng He and any possible relationship between these voyages and any historical consequences, I believe Lirelou has more or less exposed the ya da-ya da placed on public display.
 
Well, modern archaeology and new views on written material can sometimes give new information and even change old views.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

  As for the bit about "Vikings" well given that the term itself is an invention of early English romanticism--yes Carch, the term does not enter the English language until the late 18th century--we can hardly be speaking of either a people or a culture...not even in old Norse! Even good old Wikipedia admits this truth. You can go beserker all you want, but within historiography the representatives of the Norse ethne have their proper identities and are discussed directly under those terms. .
 
Well, if you prefer the terms Nordic or Scandinavian it is fine for me. But that does not negate that these people had an influence on the history of both the British isles and todays Russia and Ucraine.
 
And even if the word Viking became popular in later times it is an old word  (even if its original meaning is somewhat debated). One can read it in old poems and also on runestones.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2010 at 14:40
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Your arguments are so weak, drgonzaga.
Everybody knows Vikings weren't a state. Even a high school student knows Vikings were the Norse that practised piracy at summer times, and that aren't representative of all Norse society.
So, what's your point now?

The Norse reached the Americas? Yes, they did.

The Norse keep that knowledge in Europe? Yes, they did, that's how we can read theirs Sagas.

Were Norse expeditions important? Yes they were.

Did Norse expeditions influenced later European travels to the New World? Certainly they did, at least there is a chance they did.

I am using an structured and logical style to develop arguments. Please try to follow the style, so your confusing arguments are readable.
 
ROTFLMAO!
 
Being argumentative does not translate into the construct of a didactive much less tenable argument particularly since elsewhere, Pinguin, you berate the syllogism and make known the fact that the grasping of both inductive and deductive reason is beyond your capacity. Get back to me once you can understand the differences.
 
Suggested reading for the furtherance of your education:
 

In logic, an argument is a set of one or more meaningful declarative sentences (or "propositions") known as the premises along with another meaningful declarative sentence (or "proposition") known as the conclusion. A deductive argument asserts that the truth of the conclusion is a logical consequence of the premises; an inductive argument asserts that the truth of the conclusion is supported by the premises. Deductive arguments are valid or invalid, and sound or not sound. An argument is valid if and only if the truth of the conclusion is a logical consequence of the premises and (consequently) its corresponding conditional is a necessary truth. A sound argument is a valid argument with true premises.

Each premise and the conclusion are only either true or false, i.e. are truth bearers. The sentences composing an argument are referred to as being either true or false, not as being valid or invalid; deductive arguments are referred to as being valid or invalid, not as being true or false. Some authors refer to the premises and conclusion using the terms declarative sentence, statement, proposition, sentence, or even indicative utterance. The reason for the variety is concern about the ontological significance of the terms, proposition in particular. Whichever term is used, each premise and the conclusion must be capable of being true or false and nothing else: they are truthbearers.

Informal arguments are studied in informal logic, are presented in ordinary language and are intended for everyday discourse. Conversely, formal arguments are studied in formal logic (historically called symbolic logic, more commonly referred to as mathematical logic today) and are expressed in a formal language. Informal logic may be said to emphasize the study of argumentation, whereas formal logic emphasizes implication and inference. Informal arguments are sometimes implicit. That is, the logical structure--the relationship of claims, premises, warrants, relations of implication, and conclusion--is not always spelled out and immediately visible and must sometimes be made explicit by analysis.

 
 
When you can practice the art of clarity in analysis perchance you might become a useful contributor. Until then please leave your bird droppings in more appropriate receptacles.


Edited by drgonzaga - 09 Dec 2010 at 14:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2010 at 15:32
Now on to Carcharadon. He wote:
 
Well, conservatives often are under the impression that they represent the most objective world view. Some of them can not discern that their alleged objectivity also is a social construct and is influenced by ideology in the same way as many other ways of looking at history.
 
Who are these "conservatives" and just exactly which weltanschauung are they representing. After all, I was very specific with regard to the antics of the New Left and how they violate the understandings required in valid historical methodology. After all there is a marked difference between the Critical and the Speculative when discussing the Philosophy of History. Would you care to propound on the teleological?
 
As was undertaken with your cohort in the realm of language abuse, here is some suggested reading:
 

The term philosophy of history refers to the theoretical aspect of history, in two senses. It is customary to distinguish critical philosophy of history from speculative philosophy of history. Critical philosophy of history is the "theory" aspect of the discipline of academic history, and deals with questions such as the nature of historical evidence, the degree to which objectivity is possible, etc. Speculative philosophy of history is an area of philosophy concerning the eventual significance, if any, of human history.[1] Furthermore, it speculates as to a possible teleological end to its development—that is, it asks if there is a design, purpose, directive principle, or finality in the processes of human history. Part of Marxism, for example, is speculative philosophy of history. Though there is some overlap between the two, they can usually be distinguished; modern professional historians tend to be skeptical about speculative philosophy of history.

Sometimes critical philosophy of history is included under historiography. Philosophy of history should not be confused with the history of philosophy, which is the study of the development of philosophical ideas through time.

Speculative philosophy of history asks at least three basic questions:

  • What is the proper unit for the study of the human past — the individual subject? The polis ("city") or sovereign territory? The civilization or culture? Or the whole of the human species?
  • Are there any broad patterns that we can discern through the study of the human past? Are there, for example, patterns of progress? Or cycles? Is history deterministic? Or are there no patterns or cycles, and is human history random? Related to this is the study of individual agency and its impact in history, functioning within, or opposed to, larger trends and patterns.
  • If history can indeed be said to progress, what is its ultimate direction? What (if any) is the driving force of that progress?

[1]  W. H. Walsh, Introduction to the Philosophy of History (1951) ch.1 s.2.

 
Elementary, of course, but then one must start at the beginning with all the immature. Then there is needed lesson in distinguishing the differences between valid proposotions and cavils. Propositions are accompanied by analysis while cavils are little else than "buts" uttered over the small and unimportant. Here are two grand examples of the latter from your pen (ethereal, naturally):
 
Well, modern archaeology and new views on written material can sometimes give new information and even change old views.
 
Well, if you prefer the terms Nordic or Scandinavian it is fine for me. But that does not negate that these people had an influence on the history of both the British isles and todays Russia and Ucraine. And even if the word Viking became popular in later times it is an old word  (even if its original meaning is somewhat debated). One can read it in old poems and also on runestones.
 
Modern? archaeology is nothing but an exercise in the abuse of the adjective. Further, confirmation is a two way street after all did not archaeologists receive a shock to their own psyches upon discovering the murals at Bonampak!?! The only views that had to change were their own and thus conform to the historical narrative set long before: the Classic Maya like all other Mesoamerican "urbanites" practiced human sacrifice!
 
As for your "vikings" all I need utter is but one name Snorri Sturluson! And here I would hasten to remind you on my ever repetitive advise on connections and consequences. In addition, perhaps you are in need of running out of the sauna of Romanticism into the cold waters of historical reality.  
 
 
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2010 at 15:51
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
ROTFLMAO!
 
Being argumentative does not translate into the construct of a didactive much less tenable argument particularly since elsewhere, Pinguin, you berate the syllogism and make known the fact that the grasping of both inductive and deductive reason is beyond your capacity. Get back to me once you can understand the differences.
 
Suggested reading for the furtherance of your education:
 

In logic, an argument is a set of one or more meaningful declarative sentences (or "propositions") known as the premises along with another meaningful declarative sentence (or "proposition") known as the conclusion. A deductive argument asserts that the truth of the conclusion is a logical consequence of the premises; an inductive argument asserts that the truth of the conclusion is supported by the premises. Deductive arguments are valid or invalid, and sound or not sound. An argument is valid if and only if the truth of the conclusion is a logical consequence of the premises and (consequently) its corresponding conditional is a necessary truth. A sound argument is a valid argument with true premises.

Each premise and the conclusion are only either true or false, i.e. are truth bearers. The sentences composing an argument are referred to as being either true or false, not as being valid or invalid; deductive arguments are referred to as being valid or invalid, not as being true or false. Some authors refer to the premises and conclusion using the terms declarative sentence, statement, proposition, sentence, or even indicative utterance. The reason for the variety is concern about the ontological significance of the terms, proposition in particular. Whichever term is used, each premise and the conclusion must be capable of being true or false and nothing else: they are truthbearers.

Informal arguments are studied in informal logic, are presented in ordinary language and are intended for everyday discourse. Conversely, formal arguments are studied in formal logic (historically called symbolic logic, more commonly referred to as mathematical logic today) and are expressed in a formal language. Informal logic may be said to emphasize the study of argumentation, whereas formal logic emphasizes implication and inference. Informal arguments are sometimes implicit. That is, the logical structure--the relationship of claims, premises, warrants, relations of implication, and conclusion--is not always spelled out and immediately visible and must sometimes be made explicit by analysis.

 
 
When you can practice the art of clarity in analysis perchance you might become a useful contributor. Until then please leave your bird droppings in more appropriate receptacles.


What's your point? Copying and pasting won't do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2010 at 16:00
If you can not "grasp" the point, reread the first sentence. It's there and as the old addage goes "if you can't get it, try following instructions!"
 
And in a paraphrase of the famed W. C. Fields: Go away bird, ya bother me!
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2010 at 17:13
Carch, in re your:  "I do not believe Zheng Hes voyages alone led to all the immigration or cultural influence of Chinese, but it had some impact in for example Malacka and also Indonesia. Interesting enough later there has even become some cult of Zheng He and temples are still built in his honour."

And I agree that it had some impact. But he was certainly not the first Chinese to travel through Southeast Asia. Numerous Chinese and Indian travelers crisscrossed what later came to be called the Indochinese Peninsula in the late B.C. and early Christian era, ergo what little we know of Funan, which later became "Lower Cambodia" before becoming today's Mekong Delta. So, both Insular and Peninsular SEA was known to the Chinese (literatti, at least) even before Zheng He's voyages, and his certainly were impressive.

However, as regards their impact, remember that after Zheng He's voyages, his fleets were destroyed and trade with Southeast Asia banned by the Ming dynasty. Though there were a healthy number of smugglers who ignored that ban, it was not lifted until after the Europeans were already sailing the Pacific and Indian Oceans and South China Sea. It was lifted in 1567, during the reign of  Ming Mu-zung, and that suggests that European trade in Asia spurred the Chinese to lift the ban. (date taken from Li Tana's "Nguyen Cochinchina: Southern Vietnam in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries" (Cornell, SEAP, 1998), pp. 68-69) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2010 at 17:33
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

If you can not "grasp" the point, reread the first sentence.


Your long scholastic speech it is an abuse for my attention span. I can't dedicate 20 minutes to each post you put here, just to get an idea about what you mean. Most of the times you mean nothing, anyways Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2010 at 21:48

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

While Zheng He's travels were known to the Chinese, they did not result in thousands of Chinese moving into the area to trade.

Not true actually. Malacca's Chinese population was established during the voyages of the treasure fleets.

Some other points I picked up:
-> As far as currency goes don't forget that the currency of the sahel was cowrie shells from the Maldives. Imported via Egypt though the Indian ocean trade routes.
-> Not only did Roman goods flow to & fro India but Roman people did as well. St Thomas and Keralan Christanity is a case in point.
-> As lirelou has already said, there were plenty of chinese sailing around in the indian ocean in the 15th century

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2010 at 00:47
I recall a report where some Africans said they were descendants of Chinese sailors of ancient times. They even have some chinaware to prove it. Sorry if I can't provided sources, because it was just on TV. 

Edited by pinguin - 10 Dec 2010 at 00:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2010 at 03:57
Omar, that would be from the mid-half of the 16th Century (1567 on).
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