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Coin points to Early Chinese Trade With Africa

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2010 at 08:11
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Carch, in re your:  "I do not believe Zheng Hes voyages alone led to all the immigration or cultural influence of Chinese, but it had some impact in for example Malacka and also Indonesia. Interesting enough later there has even become some cult of Zheng He and temples are still built in his honour."

And I agree that it had some impact. But he was certainly not the first Chinese to travel through Southeast Asia. Numerous Chinese and Indian travelers crisscrossed what later came to be called the Indochinese Peninsula in the late B.C. and early Christian era, ergo what little we know of Funan, which later became "Lower Cambodia" before becoming today's Mekong Delta. So, both Insular and Peninsular SEA was known to the Chinese (literatti, at least) even before Zheng He's voyages, and his certainly were impressive.
 
Yes, as I mentioned earlier in this thread Chinese precence in these waters was quite old even in the days of Zheng He. Zheng He also met other chinese on his voyage, the most notorious among them where the pirates of the Malacca strait that he waged war against on his first mission.

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

However, as regards their impact, remember that after Zheng He's voyages, his fleets were destroyed and trade with Southeast Asia banned by the Ming dynasty. Though there were a healthy number of smugglers who ignored that ban, it was not lifted until after the Europeans were already sailing the Pacific and Indian Oceans and South China Sea. It was lifted in 1567, during the reign of  Ming Mu-zung, and that suggests that European trade in Asia spurred the Chinese to lift the ban. (date taken from Li Tana's "Nguyen Cochinchina: Southern Vietnam in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries" (Cornell, SEAP, 1998), pp. 68-69) 
 
As you say, there were smugglers and also the laws were not always upheld effectively so there were indeed Chinese ships and traders that continued to traverse South East Asian and Indonesian waters and even beyond.


Edited by Carcharodon - 10 Dec 2010 at 08:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2010 at 08:26
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Well, conservatives often are under the impression that they represent the most objective world view. Some of them can not discern that their alleged objectivity also is a social construct and is influenced by ideology in the same way as many other ways of looking at history.
 
Who are these "conservatives" and just exactly which weltanschauung are they representing. After all, I was very specific with regard to the antics of the New Left and how they violate the understandings required in valid historical methodology. After all there is a marked difference between the Critical and the Speculative when discussing the Philosophy of History. Would you care to propound on the teleological?
 
Obviously there are concservative historian that are rather stuck in an old ethnocentric way of viewing history, with a notion of westerners being the pinacle of human evolution and written, preferrably western, narratives as the only valid source material. Also they many times asks the source material a very limitied set of questions, questions that in their turn are determined by their limited view of the world and historical processes. Much of this is perhaps subconscious and not explicit expressed or even thought of.
  
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Modern? archaeology is nothing but an exercise in the abuse of the adjective. Further, confirmation is a two way street after all did not archaeologists receive a shock to their own psyches upon discovering the murals at Bonampak!?! The only views that had to change were their own and thus conform to the historical narrative set long before: the Classic Maya like all other Mesoamerican "urbanites" practiced human sacrifice!
 
Well, also archaeological theories and suppositions change in the face of new source material. But many times one can see that archaeology expands the knowledge (and modifies it, or changes it completely) that historians thought they had about a subject.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

As for your "vikings" all I need utter is but one name Snorri Sturluson! And here I would hasten to remind you on my ever repetitive advise on connections and consequences. In addition, perhaps you are in need of running out of the sauna of Romanticism into the cold waters of historical reality.
 
 
Snorri Sturlasson was indeed not the first one who use the word Viking, for example mentionings on runstones are a couple of hundred years older, and even older are poems where the word also can be seen. Also modern archaeology can give a much more detailed and comprehensive view of Nordic life in iron age and early medieval time than just the writings of Snorri and his contemporaries.  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 13:27
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I recall a report where some Africans said they were descendants of Chinese sailors of ancient times. They even have some chinaware to prove it. Sorry if I can't provided sources, because it was just on TV. 
 
Perhaps it was these people you saw?
 
 
Quote
Distant Ties to China?

On Pate Island along the Swahili coast of Kenya, the Mohame family pounds corn to make cornbread, a staple of their diet. The Mohameds are one of three families of the Famao clan who claim Chinese lineage. According to local legend, shipwrecked sailors from Zheng's fleet made it to shore and married local women, a belief that has become a central part of the Famao's personal mythology. Hints of past Chinese presence still exist on the island: Local tombs and lion statues have designs that some believe closely resemble those of the Ming era, and bits of Chinese ceramics that have washed ashore decorate the facades of some houses.
 
Chinas Great Armada Gallery Photo
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 11 Dec 2010 at 13:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 14:07
Yes! It looks like that was the report.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2010 at 21:11
Interesting...the Swahili coast is really Chinese. Not! The Lamu Islands have a history all of their own and Pate itself is part of that archipelago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 11:39
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Interesting...the Swahili coast is really Chinese. Not! The Lamu Islands have a history all of their own and Pate itself is part of that archipelago.
 
So what? That do not exclude some contact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 13:55
Give it a break, Carch! Hans Staden was shipwrecked off the Brazilian coast but such is not evidence that the port of Hamburg had contact much less traded with the Tupinamba! Or do you not grasp the full implications behind the descriptive Swahili?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 14:10
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Give it a break, Carch! Hans Staden was shipwrecked off the Brazilian coast but such is not evidence that the port of Hamburg had contact much less traded with the Tupinamba! Or do you not grasp the full implications behind the descriptive Swahili?
 
Contact between China was not new even during the time of Zheng He himself. Such contacts are recorded already from Tang and Song.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 14:15
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Interesting...the Swahili coast is really Chinese. Not! The Lamu Islands have a history all of their own and Pate itself is part of that archipelago.
 
So what? That do not exclude some contact.
That you cannot prove something didn't exist is not evidence that it did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 14:45
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Interesting...the Swahili coast is really Chinese. Not! The Lamu Islands have a history all of their own and Pate itself is part of that archipelago.
 
So what? That do not exclude some contact.
That you cannot prove something didn't exist is not evidence that it did.
 
Now and then contacts have existed between China (or chinese travellers) and the East African coast, both archaeological evidence and written accounts show that. But how important such contacts were, how long they lasted and the exact nature of them can always be discussed. They are also subject to research.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 15:05
Parapsychology was once an object of research and a waste of public money...today it is limited to the purse strings of rich fools and avid flim-flam artists (although you can certainly make money from it by going "Hollywood"). Any discussion requires substance and all you have proven by these persistent cavils, Carch, is its marked dearth in the proposition of Chinese trade with Africa in the 15th century. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 15:12
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Parapsychology was once an object of research and a waste of public money...today it is limited to the purse strings of rich fools and avid flim-flam artists (although you can certainly make money from it by going "Hollywood"). Any discussion requires substance and all you have proven by these persistent cavils, Carch, is its marked dearth in the proposition of Chinese trade with Africa in the 15th century. 
 
Sometimes you just seem to argue for the cause of arguing. Since you have not conducted any research about these things it is better you abstain from meaningless interjections.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 15:45
I am not arguing it is you who continues to smother with truly meaningless interjections without even posting any credible research that asserts proof! Now go look that up in your Funk & Wagnall's...then try to "sock it to me"...until then I'll bet my sweet bippie that the result will be but the usual froth dressing up a latte and calling it coffee!
 
Until then thank you for the early morning (CST) Laugh-In...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 18:42
And there was I thinkinig it was going to be a recording of the show...Cry
 
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 17 Dec 2010 at 18:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 00:17
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Sometimes you just seem to argue for the cause of arguing. ...


I wouldn't say "sometimes", but ""Always" LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 00:24
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

And there was I thinkinig it was going to be a recording of the show...Cry


This is more on topic. Watch it. You may learn something.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11531398




Edited by pinguin - 18 Dec 2010 at 00:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 01:22
Aw....how idyllic the shark and the penguin "swimming" together...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whalebreath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2010 at 05:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2010 at 14:52
Yes, Whalebreath there is no novelty here but such is totally irrelevant to the points Carch purports that deals specifically with the Ming in the 15th century.
 
From your own link:
 
Technological advances in shipbuilding and navigation led to the opening of new sea-lanes to Southeast Asia, Malacca, the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf. Guangzhou became the first great harbour in China around the time of the Tang and Song Dynasties, although it was later substituted by Quanzhou in the Yuan Dynasty (1271-1368) as the most important trade port.

The governments of the Ming and Qing Dynasties however issued a ban on maritime trade, contributing to a massive decline in its use.

No one disputed the existence of sea commerce and established "lanes" for centuries (or millennia); instead, what became the bone of contention were the implications raised by the term "Chinese" as well as the assertion of organized perseverance.
 
However, such does not mean that your link itself is not free from ethnic insouciance specially with regard to shipwrecks off of the South China Sea coasts. But that's another topic entirely.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whalebreath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2010 at 18:45
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Yes, Whalebreath there is no novelty here blah, blah, blah, blah, onto infinity.....
 From your own link:


Please Note-the proper term is 'from the link as posted' it's not my link anymore than it's my Forum I'm merely a participant passing along information.

Why some people here feel the need to personalise disputes is beyond me-in the end it's all just tiny points of light on a computer screen nothing more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2010 at 19:30
Originally posted by whalebreath whalebreath wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Yes, Whalebreath there is no novelty here blah, blah, blah, blah, onto infinity.....
 From your own link:


Please Note-the proper term is 'from the link as posted' it's not my link anymore than it's my Forum I'm merely a participant passing along information.

Why some people here feel the need to personalise disputes is beyond me-in the end it's all just tiny points of light on a computer screen nothing more.
 
 
ROTFLMAO! Physician heal thyself because if you do not grasp how ridiculous your purported umbrage really is just leave it as written so that others may have a good chuckle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2010 at 21:40
Originally posted by whalebreath whalebreath wrote:


Why some people here feel the need to personalise disputes is beyond me-in the end it's all just tiny points of light on a computer screen nothing more.


Cosign. Some people here like it that way LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2010 at 03:47
Ah...a comment from the Peanut Gallery of Deedyville! Next we will await the impersonation of Clarabelle.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2010 at 02:15
Zheng He in Africa


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2010 at 02:37
Historical evidence? What next the Chinese invented photography in the 14th century...Give it a rest there is little else left to discredit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2010 at 03:05
Austronesians in Africa at ancient times.

Austronesian genetic signature in East African Madagascar and Polynesia

M Regueiro, S Mirabal, H Lacau, J L Caeiro, R L Garcia-Bertrand and R J Herrera

Abstract

The dispersal of the Austronesian language family from Southeast Asia represents the last major diaspora leading to the peopling of Oceania to the East and the Indian Ocean to the West. Several theories have been proposed to explain the current locations, and the linguistic and cultural diversity of Austronesian populations. However, the existing data do not support unequivocally any given migrational scenario. In the current study, the genetic profile of 15 autosomal STR loci is reported for the first time for two populations from opposite poles of the Austronesian range, Madagascar at the West and Tonga to the East. These collections are also compared to geographically targeted reference populations of Austronesian descent in order to investigate their current relationships and potential source population(s) within Southeast Asia. Our results indicate that while Madagascar derives 66.3% of its genetic makeup from Africa, a clear connection between the East African island and Southeast Asia can be discerned. The data suggest that although geographic location has influenced the phylogenetic relationships between Austronesian populations, a genetic connection that binds them beyond geographical divides is apparent.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2010 at 03:43
If you are trying to kill me with laughter, Pingui old boy, you are succeeding splendidly as well as providing ample evidence that you are reading far beyond your capacity to comprehend! ROTFLMAO do you even know what is meant by Austronesian!?!
 
As I said before give it a break...you are fast turning this forum into little more than an outlet for the off-the-wall tinged with rather unsavory undertones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2010 at 04:02
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

If you are trying to kill me with laughter,


Laughter is abundant in the mouth of fools
(Popular proverb in Spanish, probably of Italian origin)

Who laugh last laugh better


(Spanish proverb)





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2010 at 17:06
Look here and see the fool!
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 26 Dec 2010 at 17:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2010 at 21:55
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Look here and see the fool!
 


I see. You already looked at the mirror, and now you grasp the truth Wink
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