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Comfort Women

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Comfort Women
    Posted: 06 Jul 2009 at 15:00
They were referred to women and girls who were involved in Japan's sexually enslavement between 1932 till 1945. These women came from throughout the territories which were occupied by Japan during the war. The estimation of the number of comfort women could be up to 200,000.




"Pregnant woman guarded by soldier"


The comfort women program was said to be a very systematic and well planned by the Japanese Government. In addition, it was reported that there was U.S participation when a comfort station was opened for Allied troops to use in Tokyo (1945).

The question here, what had/has Japan done to help all the victims? Aren't there any
laws to protect women during wars?

source: http://www.cmht.com/cases_cwcomfort2.php
             http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women




Edited by cahaya - 06 Jul 2009 at 15:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2009 at 15:04
A wonderfully euphemistic thing to call them - 'Comfort women'. The Japanese government wants all these women to die and for the entire thing to be forgotten, simple as that. The amount of people this affected is far too large for there to be any sort of investigation into it, for fear of the amount of money it could cost. Unfortunataly for these women, justice will probably not be done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2009 at 15:29
Good point Dolphin, to add to that point: Japan isn't good at admitting mistakes either. Look at the War Crimes accusations for one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2009 at 19:47
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Good point Dolphin, to add to that point: Japan isn't good at admitting mistakes either. Look at the War Crimes accusations for one.
 
Of the WWII countries, only Germany has been accused (successfully) in war crimes, I believe. And that's because they epically lost.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2009 at 15:23
Here is one of the Comfort Women house still available in China


An old comfort women house at 65 Guangxiao Road in Guangzhou, capital city of South China's Guangdong Province.

Source: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-07/17/content_349192.htm

In this 2004 article, there were arguments whether to maintain or to destroy this place.

Originally posted by ride<strong><em><b>r rider wrote:



Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:


Good point Dolphin, to add to that point: Japan isn't good at admitting mistakes either. Look at the War Crimes accusations for one.

 
Of the WWII countries, only Germany has been accused (successfully) in war crimes, I believe. And that's because they epically lost.


So.. no justice for these women?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2009 at 15:40
No justice... Unless of course huge political and social pressure is put on the government, and how is that going to happen? Too much culpability out there, I think most are waiting for it to go away. Either that, or their guilt dies with them. Maybe in 2032 - 2045, when all the people involved are dead will the Japanese government say sorry for the things other people did in the past, but that's about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2009 at 15:49
Originally posted by cahaya cahaya wrote:


The question here, what had/has Japan done to help all the victims? Aren't there any
laws to protect women during wars?


Sure there are laws, like the Geneva Convention, but Japan didn't bother to sign it before being defeated.

The Japanese conduct in WWII compared to the Western Allies reads like a classic 'good vs bad' comic book. Sometimes the Japanese admit their mistakes and try to compensate the victims, as was the case with Singapore which received an apology and aid. But that example is notably different: Japan appeases a foreign country and so that action will result in a diplomatic profit.

Where individual victims are concerned, Japan seems more inclined to ignore them and just wait for them to die (which will not take much longer).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2009 at 14:00
There was an allegation saying that the Allied Troops were involved in this issue. The accusation pointed towards US participation.  I suppose, US (and whichever countries involved) should be responsible as Japan too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2009 at 15:30
I never have heard about the Japanese "comfort women." When I read a book about the war in Burma, I read accounts of Japanese soldiers committing gang rape against women. Looks like the difference between Japanese "comfort women" and American "comfort women" is the American ones were not prisoners (at least until after the war in 1945 Tokyo). Both countries should apologize for their involvement in this horrible act. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2009 at 16:58
The problem with the Comfort Women issue is that there is too much late 20th Century political correctness tied up in it for any reasonable discourse. I have seen a few brave souls try to dissect this, but politics continue even today.

http://www.mutantfrog.com/2007/02/26/first-mention-of-comfort-women-in-the-english-press/

This second link specifically dissects the "political correctness" of the issue in Korea, and points out that the Japanese were not alone.  http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2007/04/the_dangers_of_.html



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2009 at 19:28
Originally posted by EB EB wrote:


Looks like the difference between Japanese "comfort women" and American "comfort women" is the American ones were not prisoners (at least until after the war in 1945 Tokyo).


refer to this link: http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/database3.html

For me.. there is no different
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2009 at 05:51
Reading the jiyuu-shikan link, it appears that many "comfort women" have no case at all. They made good money out of the deal, and were free to leave when their contracts were up. Some certain number of them willingly became "comfort women". Was that the link you intended to provide?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cahaya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2009 at 06:15
Good money?? The Table shows based on per year right? If it was per year basis, It was not good money.
Maximum income JPY6600.00 per year. If we are using current rate = US$71.28 per year
On that time, the conversion is JPY105/US$. It will be lower than the earlier amount that I had mentioned. Approx US$62.86 per year. US$5.24 per month? So u mean, this all women should be happy for what had happened to them?

Actually the main reason I am sharing the link because there were reports saying US forces/Allied soldiers were involved in sexual crimes as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2009 at 19:42
Originally posted by cahaya cahaya wrote:

Originally posted by EB EB wrote:


Looks like the difference between Japanese "comfort women" and American "comfort women" is the American ones were not prisoners (at least until after the war in 1945 Tokyo).


refer to this link: http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/database3.html

For me.. there is no different


The only difference being that the United States did not invade foreign lands and then use their native women as prostitutes. A minor difference, being that the U.S. was still complacent, but still a difference nonetheless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2009 at 20:11
Cahaya, in re: "Actually the main reason I am sharing the link because there were reports saying US forces/Allied soldiers were involved in sexual crimes as well."

Sexual crimes are an unfortunate aspect of human nature, whether in small hamlets, or large cities. Mix in a military force with its youth and high testosterone levels, and I have no doubt that percentages increase. Indeed, some of the reasons for establishing military brothels in the French Army was the desire to reduce such incidents to the absolute lowest level possible in North Africa, where the majority populations were Muslim. It is also the reason that U.S. military authorities generally (not, apparently, in Iraq and Afghanistan) relax their attitudes towards prostitution, and increase their anti-venereal disease campaigns. The belief is that the access to prostitutes and bar girls (the two are different) reduces the risks of the lowest 10% forcing themselves upon the local women and thereby alienating the community. This hardly constitutes a policy of condoning sexual slavery, though modern U.S. military commanders have been forced to take that view.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeannie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2009 at 18:15
So, you're saying--what? That women forced into prostitution isn't sexual slavery? I don't CARE how much money you're given, it's still forced prostitution--the amount of payment is irrelevant.

And I would dispute that sexual crimes are a just part of human nature. So is murder. Sexual crimes flourish (and are demonstrably much higher) in countries where such crimes are considered "a part of human nature" and accepted. There are countries and societies that have much higher rates of rape and sexual crimes and a number of studies show that those seem to be invariably countries where it is considered natural that men would attack women. (I won't EVEN go into the concept that the only objection to rape is that it might "alienate the local community.") The old "men have too much testosterone not to rape women" argument is just so outdated as to be not worth addressing. There is NO scientific standing to such an argument. Some research on the subject might clear up some of your misconceptions.

However, sexual crimes are a different class of action than a government enslaving women for sexual purposes. Apparently, according to your argument, this is acceptable if the women are thrown some money and "free to leave after their contract was up" since they were abused and enslaved for only a set amount of time.  Maybe you'd like to be enslaved to be raped (anally, of course) for a year or two and then told that since you're released, the rape and enslavement doesn't count.

I'd say we have VERY differing concepts human rights.  (Mainly, that women should be included in the concept)



Edited by Jeannie - 09 Aug 2009 at 18:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2009 at 04:11
Prostitution is not ipso facto sexual slavery. There are women who are willing to prostitute themselves. Thus all charges of sexual slavery need to be treated with common sense. If there is sufficient grounds to establish that the relationship was based upon coercion, then it is sexual slavery. If it the coercion element is absent, it is not. The fact that the alleged victim is Korean should not establish a presumption that it is sexual slavery. The burden of proof of that element should be upon the alleged victim.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2009 at 07:53
Originally posted by Jeannie Jeannie wrote:

And I would dispute that sexual crimes are a just part of human nature. So is murder.
So you accept that however strict the penalties it will occasionally happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2009 at 09:03
There are always some crazy people running around doing the most bad and disgusting things whatever penalty you will have for them. But you cannot cure one evil with another. You can not cure sex crimes with prostitution.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2009 at 09:08
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Prostitution is not ipso facto sexual slavery. There are women who are willing to prostitute themselves. Thus all charges of sexual slavery need to be treated with common sense. If there is sufficient grounds to establish that the relationship was based upon coercion, then it is sexual slavery. If it the coercion element is absent, it is not. The fact that the alleged victim is Korean should not establish a presumption that it is sexual slavery. The burden of proof of that element should be upon the alleged victim.  
 
In a colonial situation or a situation of occupation prostitution as a kind of sexual slavery is commonplace. Often the dynamic of the colonial or occupational situation creates different kinds of dependencies that hampers the free will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2009 at 18:35
Why the silence over what does constitute a contemporary problem of critical proportions within an African setting?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2009 at 19:26
     "Why the silence over what does constitute a contemporary problem of critical proportions within an African setting?"

Amen! There are some pretty gruesome problems in Africa that merit attention. The problem with the "comfort women" issue is that first, it is over half a century old, and second, there is contrary evidence that the majority of women who did participate did so willingly. Dredging up wartime Japan's actions, which were certainly atoned for in blood and fire during the U.S. bombing campaigns, and adding the added insult of viewing them through the lens of 21st century political correctness, seems pointless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2009 at 05:02

japan havenot admitted his  war crime

bec 1,
Japan did not commit the crime of genocidellike Germany ,  those crimes all Western countries are also committed during the colonial period
 
 
 
bec2,
Japan believes that they are fighting for self-defense to oppose the  four countries war encirclement, and indirectly caused the collapse of  Western colonial rule in Asia after ww2,they called the war "a great Greater East Asia War"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2009 at 05:10
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

     "Why the silence over what does constitute a contemporary problem of critical proportions within an African setting?"

Amen! There are some pretty gruesome problems in Africa that merit attention. The problem with the "comfort women" issue is that first, it is over half a century old, and second, there is contrary evidence that the majority of women who did participate did so willingly. Dredging up wartime Japan's actions, which were certainly atoned for in blood and fire during the U.S. bombing campaigns, and adding the added insult of viewing them through the lens of 21st century political correctness, seems pointless.
 
here is contrary evidence that the majority of women who did participate did so willingly?
 
 
i donnot think so, maybe the japans comfort women are devout their body to the imperial army willingly,but in china,Their use of fraudulent means, such as servicewomen recruitment, cheated a lot of honest woman
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2009 at 05:12
Originally posted by tradition tradition wrote:

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

     "Why the silence over what does constitute a contemporary problem of critical proportions within an African setting?"

Amen! There are some pretty gruesome problems in Africa that merit attention. The problem with the "comfort women" issue is that first, it is over half a century old, and second, there is contrary evidence that the majority of women who did participate did so willingly. Dredging up wartime Japan's actions, which were certainly atoned for in blood and fire during the U.S. bombing campaigns, and adding the added insult of viewing them through the lens of 21st century political correctness, seems pointless.
 
here is contrary evidence that the majority of women who did participate did so willingly?
 
 
i donnot think so, maybe the japans comfort women are devout their body to the imperial army willingly,but in china,Their use of fraudulent means, such as  waiter recruitment, cheated a lot of honest woman
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 20:17
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

     "
Amen! There are some pretty gruesome problems in Africa that merit attention. The problem with the "comfort women" issue is that first, it is over half a century old, and second, there is contrary evidence that the majority of women who did participate did so willingly. Dredging up wartime Japan's actions, which were certainly atoned for in blood and fire during the U.S. bombing campaigns, and adding the added insult of viewing them through the lens of 21st century political correctness, seems pointless.
Well, for the moment we discuss the comfort women in this thread. Africa today is another thread.
 
And when talking to at least Chinese historians and descendants of people who lived during the time of occupation one for sure do not get the impression that the comfort women and other raped women did go into such a situation voluntarily. Most of them were forced or in other way pressed to do it. But of course the Japanese will try to present another story. And some westerners are obviously jumping on that train too.
It reminds somehow about the discussions and Japanese denial campaigns concerning the massacre in Nanjing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2009 at 22:18
Carch, this is a women's history thread, so this is the proper place to discuss or challenge the Comfort Women issue. Otherwise, we would be in the East Asia thread.

Also, in re: "And when talking to at least Chinese historians and descendants of people who lived during the time of occupation..." 

And exactly how many of those have you talked to?I lived in Asia for seven and a half years, and I talked to very few real Chinese (or Korean or Vietnamese) historians, and when I did talk to a very small number of people who lived through the Japanese occupation about that specific subject, I received an interesting variety of views. Thus, most of what I know about this subject comes from books, newspapers, and internet sites. Which, I suspect, is exactly where you get your information. So unless you can claim some time studying Asian history in a respected institution, or some minimum of Asian language expertise, why not drop the "man in the street" pretensions?

Notwithstanding all the above, the fact remains that is is ancient history, and there are more pressing issues facing women in this century.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tradition Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2009 at 05:07
my grandfather was caught by japanse to served for the officers,like wash clothes,japanese soldiers sometime will use gun to threten him,when he cry,they will laugh.when the officer came back, he will punish these soldiers.
 
japanese will shoot any one who smuggle food out of town,even one bag of rice,my grand mother is luck to live,once the bullet  is not far   with the scalp
 
 
The Japanese takes a bath the men and women to wash together,my grandfather is very shy,once he has a bathe with a japanese women together
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2009 at 06:34
Originally posted by tradition tradition wrote:

my grandfather was caught by japanse to served for the officers,like wash clothes,japanese soldiers sometime will use gun to threten him,when he cry,they will laugh.when the officer came back, he will punish these soldiers.
You'd think that the Japanese could have got people to wash their clothes just by paying them. I think WW2 Japanese Officers were drunk with power - forcing instead of employing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2009 at 07:16
There is something fishy here...after all in one thread tradition asserts his residence as Taiwan and now he is discussing an issue that intimates "military occupation" and outside the context of the topic as set forth within references to Taiwan:
 
 
Within a historical context we have to understand that few true comfort women in a Taiwanese setting are still alive (or were in 1996) as the above referenced site makes quite clear:
 
 
Now what raises an eyebrow here is this statement:
 
"The Japanese takes a bath the men and women to wash together,my grandfather is very shy,once he has a bathe with a japanese women together"
 
Japanese women in a military setting? It doesn't take a TV detective to start wondering what game's afoot here.


Edited by drgonzaga - 18 Aug 2009 at 07:17
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