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Comfort Women

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Carcharodon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2009 at 08:21
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Carch, this is a women's history thread, so this is the proper place to discuss or challenge the Comfort Women issue. Otherwise, we would be in the East Asia thread.

Also, in re: "And when talking to at least Chinese historians and descendants of people who lived during the time of occupation..." 

And exactly how many of those have you talked to?I lived in Asia for seven and a half years, and I talked to very few real Chinese (or Korean or Vietnamese) historians, and when I did talk to a very small number of people who lived through the Japanese occupation about that specific subject, I received an interesting variety of views. Thus, most of what I know about this subject comes from books, newspapers, and internet sites. Which, I suspect, is exactly where you get your information. So unless you can claim some time studying Asian history in a respected institution, or some minimum of Asian language expertise, why not drop the "man in the street" pretensions?

Notwithstanding all the above, the fact remains that is is ancient history, and there are more pressing issues facing women in this century.
 
Well, I have talked to a fair share about these issues and the one I talked to (both so called men in the street, and historians) were quite united in their condemnation of the Japanese exploitation of women and their holding of sex slaves. And most of the knowledge I have about at least chinese circumstances comes from personal meetings not from the internet. But some books and internet sites I have also watched, but the things who made most impression on me is my personal meetings with people. 
 
Since you do not know my background or my whereabouts in life its better you do not assume a lot of things about where I got my experiences or information about different things.
 
 
 
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Carcharodon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2009 at 08:25
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

There is something fishy here...after all in one thread tradition asserts his residence as Taiwan and now he is discussing an issue that intimates "military occupation" and outside the context of the topic as set forth within references to Taiwan:
 
 
Within a historical context we have to understand that few true comfort women in a Taiwanese setting are still alive (or were in 1996) as the above referenced site makes quite clear:
 
 
Now what raises an eyebrow here is this statement:
 
"The Japanese takes a bath the men and women to wash together,my grandfather is very shy,once he has a bathe with a japanese women together"
 
Japanese women in a military setting? It doesn't take a TV detective to start wondering what game's afoot here.
 
Well, he talked about his grandfather. Maybe the grandfather came from mainland China and later moved, or fled to Taiwan? Many people have done such a journey. But maybe it is better to ask him himself.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2009 at 09:25
Well Carch, I've given up trying to decipher the context of his varied content. Perhaps you should take a peek at the China thread to understand why.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2009 at 11:28
The colonial capture is one of the important factor which increased the prostitution business during the colonial period. The post is extremely informative.

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I am the author of Parmethia
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2009 at 03:57
Marc, I don't understand the context of your post. Are you alluding to Korea, Taiwan, or the issue of colonialism in general. Dr, Andrei Lankov, who did his post-Ph.D. studies at Kim Il-sung University, notes that prostitution as such did not exist in Korea prior to the arrival of the Japanese. This is not to say that no tradition existed of female 'entertainers', it was just that Korea was so poor, there was no theatre life to attract the audiences that would thereafter spend the night entertaining guests in the company of women, as existed in Japan at the time. But once conditions within Korea improved, and a nightlife sprang up in Seoul, so did a 'red light' district with prostitutes. I find it interesting that most of those who comment on the 'comfort women' issue, do so from a 21st century perspective, and fail to even mention the cultural position of women generally in the East Asia of 1905-1945.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2009 at 13:00
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

I find it interesting that most of those who comment on the 'comfort women' issue, do so from a 21st century perspective, and fail to even mention the cultural position of women generally in the East Asia of 1905-1945.
 
That do not diminish the fact that the Japanese took many women as prisoners and even dragged them round with their army to have them at hand when need arised. I have heard several haunting stories about this from Chinese historians and ordinary people I talked too. These stories come originally from people who actually were there, so one can hardly blame those narratives for 21th century bias.


Edited by Carcharodon - 09 Dec 2009 at 13:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2009 at 18:16
Omg are my eyes deceiving me or did car actually define and set a scope for adiscussion thread!?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2009 at 18:36
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Good point Dolphin, to add to that point: Japan isn't good at admitting mistakes either. Look at the War Crimes accusations for one.
 
Of the WWII countries, only Germany has been accused (successfully) in war crimes, I believe. And that's because they epically lost.
 
Japanese were tried for war crimes. For instance Hideki Tojo was executed.
 
After all, they epically lost too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2009 at 18:43
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Good point Dolphin, to add to that point: Japan isn't good at admitting mistakes either. Look at the War Crimes accusations for one.
 
Of the WWII countries, only Germany has been accused (successfully) in war crimes, I believe. And that's because they epically lost.
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Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2009 at 03:00
Carch, my studies done some years ago convinced me that the great majority of Comfort Women were voluntarily recruited. The Japanese army did not march into peaceful villages or farm homes and abduct the women. They relied upon contractors to provide volunteers. Now, does that mean that some were not underage, or that these women simply wanted to be prostitutes. It does not. Women were not regarded as being equal to men in either China, Japan, or Korea. In some cases, fathers decided to better the family fortunes by "selling" a daughter into the system. Women who had been raped, or had the misfortune to fall in love and share their bodies with someone who would not marry them, also signed such contracts. Bar girls signed such contracts. Common prostitutes signed such contracts. And girls who had the misfortune to fall into gangster hands had such contracts signed for them. The initial bonus often went to a parent. The money was comparatively good! After all, they were regarded as unfit for marriage within traditional Asian societies. Comfort women existed long before WWII. Indeed, there was a Japanese film back in the '70 about Japanese women who had gone to Indonesia and other places to service Japanese migrant workers. Comfort women existed throughout Asia. The Japanese merely systematized the process. lost a war, and then lived through the entry of Asia into the 20th Century. Women's place in modern Asian societies has radically changed, and for the better. But we are doing ourselves a disservice if we insist of judging 1900-1945 Asia by 21st Century Asian standards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2009 at 12:04
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Carch, my studies done some years ago convinced me that the great majority of Comfort Women were voluntarily recruited. The Japanese army did not march into peaceful villages or farm homes and abduct the women. They relied upon contractors to provide volunteers. Now, does that mean that some were not underage, or that these women simply wanted to be prostitutes. It does not. Women were not regarded as being equal to men in either China, Japan, or Korea. In some cases, fathers decided to better the family fortunes by "selling" a daughter into the system. Women who had been raped, or had the misfortune to fall in love and share their bodies with someone who would not marry them, also signed such contracts. Bar girls signed such contracts. Common prostitutes signed such contracts. And girls who had the misfortune to fall into gangster hands had such contracts signed for them. The initial bonus often went to a parent. The money was comparatively good! After all, they were regarded as unfit for marriage within traditional Asian societies. Comfort women existed long before WWII. Indeed, there was a Japanese film back in the '70 about Japanese women who had gone to Indonesia and other places to service Japanese migrant workers. Comfort women existed throughout Asia. The Japanese merely systematized the process. lost a war, and then lived through the entry of Asia into the 20th Century. Women's place in modern Asian societies has radically changed, and for the better. But we are doing ourselves a disservice if we insist of judging 1900-1945 Asia by 21st Century Asian standards.


Completely wrong. The studies done by Chinese historians I have contact with, and also the narratives from women who actually were there and lived these things contradicts what you are saying, at least in China. Rapes, kidnappings and forcing women to follow them were actually legio in China.
You must also separate the prostituion that existed in pre war conditions with the many times abducted women in war situations.
To add to the comfort women there were also plenty of other rapes and abuse in China, you can just take as an example the enormous wave of rapes and violence towards women in connection with the massacre of Nanjing  in 1937.

So all in all, to call the imprisoned Chinese women that were used and abused by Japanese soldiers for prostitutes do not give a true picture of the circumstances and it is also an insult against most of these victims.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2009 at 15:54
Carch, good counterpoint. I believe that my use of "peaceful villages or farms" excludes combat operations in China. The great majority of literature I've seen on Comfort Women relates to Korea, Manchuria, Japan, and Taiwan. So, if you wish to limit the term 'comfort women' to China only, I will gladly concede your point. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2009 at 20:58
War is hell...but then "paper wars" by those who somehow can not escape the past become little more than exercises in polemical vitriol. After all rejection of blood taint is a fundamental understanding in law, no matter the excessive verbiage nor the enterprise of lawyers.
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