| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Contribution of the "primitives" to progress
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Topic ClosedContribution of the "primitives" to progress

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 7>
Author
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Topic: Contribution of the "primitives" to progress
    Posted: 15 May 2011 at 01:03
The tribal peoples has been called "primitives", as if they were a surpassed state in human development. However, historically, the tribal societies had contributed with many inventions, techniques and crops to theirs "civilized" neighbours. (In the Americas, for instance, it is particularly curious that many advances spread from tribal peoples, rathen than from local civilizations. The tribal people had novelties, while civilizations usually had inventions whose Eurasian equivalent was superior. As it is the case mexican amate paper, the Mayan zero and mathematics or the quipus, which couldn't compite with theirs eurasian counterparts)

Let open this thread about those contributions worldwide, where primitive peoples brough advances and novelties to the "supossedly" more advanced civilizations.

Examples of contributions by "primitives" worldwide, and just to name a few:

(1) Northern Europe: slides, skies.
(2) Central Asians: styrrups, horse ridding
(3) Inuits: Kayaks, iglues, dog slides.
(4) Polynesians: Catamarans.
(5) Australian aborigines: Boomerang
(6) SS Africa: Cubism, through Picasso.
(7) North America:
     Native track reading and war tactiques.
     Syrup extraction.
     Bark canoes.
     Snow rackets.
     Lacroise
( 8 ) Caribbean:
     Hammocks
     barbecues
(9) Mesoamerica:
     Tacos.
     Chocolate processing.
     Rubber.
(10) South America.
     Powdered mashed potatoes.
     Platinum









Edited by pinguin - 15 May 2011 at 01:11
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2011 at 11:43

Of course primitive societies have contributed to human advanement technologically and in all sorts of ways. If they hadn't done so they would still be primitive.

And incidentally Cubism has nothing whatsoever to do with Africa, sub-Saharan or otherwise. Cubism was an intellectual movement that developed out of Cézanne's fascination with the simplificaton of shapes. It is essentially a highly sophisticated development that could only have arisen in a milieu where artists were considering finding new worlds to conquer (rather as with the explosion of abstract work post 1945).
 
The only possible connection with Africa is that in the 19th century artists may have been inspired to look for new worlds by being confronted with art from China, India, Polynesia, Africa and the Americas and realising that artistic development was possible outside the European tradition of pictorialism. But African art is not in the least Cubist.
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2011 at 14:51
You can see the relation between African art, Picaso and Cubism in here

http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/african-american/twentieth_century/cubism.htm

http://bsu.edu/artinsight/Timeline/timeline_cubism.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picasso%27s_African_Period


A quote from the second link:

Influenced by the style and distortion of African art, Pablo Picasso and Georges Braque began working in the Cubist style around 1906, and the style remained popular among artists for several decades.

Comparisons between African and Picasso's art








Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2011 at 15:02
A very interesting comment on Primitivism:

Source: http://www.coursework.info/AS_and_A_Level/Art___Design/Primitive_Art__146_s_Influence_on_Modern_L13275.html


"Primitivism" can be defined as the "interest of modern artists in tribal art and culture, as revealed through their thought and work" (Rubin 1). The term refers not to the art itself, but to the Western interest and reaction to the art (5). Over and over again, modern artists have drawn on the powers of tribal and primitive art because they are attracted to it authentic, timeless, magical, and innocent ideas -- values most artists felt were fading in the West. Relationships often exist between twentieth-century art and primitive art, whether it is an affinity or a literal borrowing from the past (Stevens 92). Some influences are absorbed, invisible, spiritual, and cannot be exhibited; others can be seen clearly in the artist’s work (93). Losing faith in Western art traditions, many artists searched for something pure and real, something to redefine the true nature of art. Many, such as Pablo Picasso, Henry Moore, and Frank Lloyd Wright found this in the ancient art of the primitives.

"In no other artist's career has primitivism played so pivotal and historically consequential a role as in Pablo Picasso's" (Rubin 241). With a continuous presence of tribal objects in his studio and his work from 1907 until his death, Picasso is described as the "key protagonist" of 20th century primitivism. Picasso's childhood was bourgeois and conventional, with a respected traditional artist and art professor as a father (241). Picasso began to view the art of his childhood, as well as the art of society as no longer viable or true, so he took it upon himself to provide new alternatives. Before 1906, Picasso began moving in a different direction from tradition by celebrating the outsiders of society in his work: the poor, the blind, the old, and the rejected. Finally, in June of 1907, Picasso had an "epiphany". After a yearlong evolution in his works, called the "Iberian" style, triggered by the Archaic Iberian relief exhibit at the Louvre, Picasso entered into "his first stage of primitivism” (242). Many of the African pieces he began to see had origins several centuries old, associated with early civilizations and a simple model of the world, something Picasso was looking to portray in his art (243). An example was "Guitar," the first of Picasso's Cubist sculptures, which was made of sheet metal and directly influenced by an early Grebo mask (18). Then, Picasso's work, "Two Nudes," was painted at the end of 1906, and is now known as the end of his Iberian phase and the beginning of something new for Picasso. Over the next few months, Picasso began to flatten and simplify the Iberian figures in his works (247). Though the "Two Nudes" is not as primitive as Picasso's work of next 2 years, it has a rawness and simplicity that shows his important step in that direction (248).

Late in 1906, Picasso began sketches of his most famous work, "Les Demoiselles d’Avignon" (251). The painting appeared in its first Iberian form in late May and June of 1907. However, in late June and July, Picasso made many changes to the left and right side of the painting, where the inception of his tribal phase occurs (253). In the first stages, the scene was a narrative of a doctor and a sailor with a venereal disease. This seemed to depict Picasso's own fears and concerns with the diseases. After completing the first Iberian version of "Demoiselles," Picasso visited the Palais du Trocadero, and finally the Musee d' Ethnographic wing, devoted only to African and Oceanic sculpture (254). The gallery was in bad shape and Picasso could wander freely. Picasso claims that given his initial disgust with the gallery, his first instinct was to flee. For some reason though, he could not take eyes off of the tribal material, so he remained there for quite some time. He later described the visit as something disturbing happening inside of him; he was experiencing an epiphany, a "shock," and a "revelation." He was instantly drawn to the "magical" conception of the art in the tribal masks and sculptures he saw, as well as the reductive, ideographic character of the works. He understood the logical and conceptual sense of the tribal art, and it appealed to him (255). His reaction to this visit inspired many second works of "Demoiselles." Critics proposed the reason for the changes to be that Picasso was attempting to transform his work from the narrative to the iconic and abstracted, as he had seen in the tribal work. He wanted to recapture the meanings through style, instead of illustration, making it more profound and generalized (252). "Demoiselles" marked the final stage of Picasso's transition from perceptual to conceptual, clearing the way for Cubism's development in later years.

The mystical roots of tribal art were the central feature in Picasso's revelation (255). The African art moved Picasso to a rediscovery of art making as "magical" and pure. He loved the African art because he found it "raisonnable," as a result of the reasoning process, making it conceptual (18). Picasso wanted modern art to share the universal quality that he found in tribal sculpture, and as a result, Picasso's primitivism broadened the Western language of art (53). By the end of 1907, had given primitivism a new, twentieth-century definition, anchored in tribal, not exotic, objects and an appreciation for their "magical" and artistic force (242).

Another example of the influence of primitive art forms on modern art can be seen through the work of Henry Moore, one of the most prominent British abstract sculptors of the 20th century. Moore had many non-western influences throughout his career, but the most important and influential was that of Pre-Columbian art. He first encountered this art style while a student in art school and almost immediately began using it for models in his work. During the 1920s, Moore began to explore sculpture more seriously, following the basic rules: unity of the aesthetic experience and permission to search the world for different models (“Henry” 94). While attending the traditional art schools, Moore catered to the demands of the classical coursework, but decided to pursue his real education elsewhere, seeking an alternative to the classical traditions. Moore thought of Greek and Roman sculpture as the enemy, and desired to “start again” like the primitives. The art of ancient Mexico grabbed his attention the most and began to greatly form his views on carving and sculpting (95). The Aztec sculptures had cubic shapes and features, which are subordinated into a whole, symbols which are relayed through various reliefs, and a bareness of surface - - all characteristics Moore could appreciate in sculpture. Pre-Columbian art became his primary model, and after spending much time in the libraries, pouring over books and photographs, he advanced to become a scholar of ancient Mexican sculpture (97). In 1921, he began drawing and sketching ideas for different sculptures. In these drawings were many copies of Pre-Columbian and primitive artwork. His first modernist carvings were executed in 1922, along with his first 3-D sculpture, “Mother and Child.” This piece displays a great awareness of a similar Aztec seated figure. With characteristics of geometric simplification, muting of incidental details, and a formal clarity, this piece certainly points the ancient Mexican ideas (98). Between 1927 and 1930, Moore carved more than a half a dozen masks based on Aztec models, using museums and books as his sources. In fact, a number of his masks seem to be direct translations of the images found in the books. His work always seems to possess certain qualities commonly attributed to traditional ancient Mexican culture art such as: symmetrical order, cubit units of mass, division of large planes, and especially the obscuring of unnecessary detail into the whole. Moore found the ancient Mexican art to be “true and right,” something he believed had been lost in the Western classical tradition (107).

In 1928, a major turning point occurred in Moore’s work, sparked by the commission to create a relief figure for London’s new Underground office building called the “West Wind.” This piece was Moore’s first effort at public art, causing him to rethink his style in larger terms, different from his earlier intimate and smaller works. At some point in the figure’s conception, Moore turned to Pre-Columbian sculpture for inspiration, focusing on the Mayan Chacmool, a common reclining figure on its back, with its head at a right angle to its body and its legs drawn up, often associated with temple doorways and seats of authority (112). The “West Wind” came to be a blocky, angular, geometric, flattened, boldly simplified sculpture, solely based on the Mayan pieces (114). The Chacmool was the most important influence on Moore, but other references to Pre-Hispanic forms exist in his work through the 1950s (120).

The primitive influences not only affect visual arts, such as painting and sculpting, but forms such as architecture as well. Frank Lloyd Wright, the leading American architect of the twentieth-century, loved to use a combination of new and old, gaining much of his inspiration from Pre-Columbian architecture from the Mayans and Indians. Though Wright never actually traveled to Mexico or Central America, he was constantly alert to the Pre-Columbian architectural style and method. It is recorded that he had a childhood infatuation with Pre-Columbian architecture, and had his first true encounter with it in the 1880s at the Chicago School of Architecture where he saw huge casts and monuments of the Mayan style. Around 1887, he joined the firm of Adler and Sullivan, who was known for his use of ornament inspired by nature and the exotic. Sullivan soon became Wright’s mentor and caused Wright to really search outside the classical tradition for new models (“Frank” 137). He was drawn to the Pre-Columbian ideas that were elemental and natural in form and material, as opposed to the artificial classical traditions he was used to (140). After 1910, Wright turned to Pre-Columbian concepts in a major way, using ancient buildings as prototypes for a series of experimental designs, but also using new materials and much architectural ornamentation (143). The Midway Gardens of 1914, an open-air Chicago music hall and restaurant, was an example of Wright’s turning to Mayan architecture for inspiration. His first dependence on Pre-Columbian forms, scattered throughout the garden, are the concrete decorated blocks, elaborated with designs and geometric patterns inspired by Mayan ornaments (145). Wright experimented with concrete as a building material while using the Mayan models, since the Mayans had regularly used concrete cement as their building material. Using this substance, he could create smooth or textured surfaces, and even convey sculptural volumes, like architects in the Mayan culture had done. The A. D. German Warehouse in Richland Center, Wisconsin, used as a storage space for commodities, is another good example of Wright's Pre-Columbian inspired buildings. Designed in 1915 and constructed between 1917-20, the building was the first time the overall configuration of Wright's building was Pre-Columbian, from the large rectangular blocks, to the divisions of a highly decorated zone and an undecorated lower zone. Wright even used Mayan models for exterior layout (148).

Between 1916-22, Wright accepted a commission from Aline Barnsdall to build an elaborate complex on a hill in Hollywood, CA. This was Wright’s first domestic design using Pre-Columbian sources. The house resembled a temple, adopting the shape from Mayan Peten style temples. With much ornamental design and use of the hollyhock (Barnsdall's favorite flower), the home came to be known as the Hollyhock house (150). After the Hollyhock house, Wright built four more Pre-Columbian based residences, later known as "textile blockhouses." These textile-block houses were representations of Maya ruins, but with hopes of developing a system of construction for the new machine age, one that's efficient and economical, but also ornamental (156). Wright's interest sparked a new Pre-Columbian style in southern California and other areas of the US during the late 1920-30s. Bossom, Miller, Pflueger, and Judd were all architects following his lead, designing private and public buildings, residences, hotels, shops, civic centers, skyscrapers, etc. One of the most noted followers was Frank Wright's son, Lloyd Wright. He embraced his father's ideas and goals strongly, and declared own interest in Pre-Columbian architecture. His best example is seen in the 1926 John Sowden House in LA, where the younger Wright used adaptations of the ancient Yucatan Mayan Temples (166). Frank Lloyd Wright believed the Mayan designs to have a certain spiritual value and mystic feeling that he desired in his work. He thought they better grasped the geometric sense of form with symbolic meaning, and in essence, captured the "core of reality" (173).

As William Rubin states, “ours is the only society that has prized a whole spectrum of arts of distant and alien cultures” (41). These examples are only a few of the many people that have been influenced by primitive art and methods. More than anything, primitivism has played huge role in the shaping and transforming of various modern art forms of the twentieth-century. It is understood that primitive objects have had less to do with the redirecting of modern art, than the reinforcing of changes and ideas already underway in the artist’s mind and in today’s world (Rubin 17). Society was looking for something new and better - - something unlike the traditions of the western world. Primitivism surfaced at a time when society needed it to, and remained a constant influence throughout the twentieth-century.
Back to Top
Dolphin View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Teaman to the Society of Dilettanti

Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Location: Lindalino
Status: Offline
Points: 2766
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2011 at 15:25
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

A quote from the second link:

Influenced by the style and distortion of African art, Pablo Picasso and Georges Braque began working in the Cubist style around 1906, and the style remained popular among artists for several decades.

Comparisons between African and Picasso's art





I suppose the assumption would be that the African art - like the mask you've shown above - is an organic naive depiction of the human form, whereas Picasso's (later) work is a return to 'essential form' from a more complex grounding. Whether the intention behind an art work is important to the interpretation of its outcome is the real question, I suppose.


Garcon a la Pipe

This is one of Picasso's works from the Rose period that came before his Cubist phase. I think it demonstrates that Picasso was more than able to render a more 'complex' depiction, but ultimately chose to express himself differently. So it would be my contention that Picasso's later Cubist paintings are indeed more complex, owing to an assumed philosophical grounding in other forms that cannot be reliably ascribed to similar African art.



Back to Top
Panther View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 4577
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2011 at 18:26
Not much to say at the moment. Just thought i would give pinguin a thumbs up for supplying links without even being asked or reminded to do so. Thumbs Up
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2011 at 18:33
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You can see the relation between African art, Picaso and Cubism in here

http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/african-american/twentieth_century/cubism.htm

http://bsu.edu/artinsight/Timeline/timeline_cubism.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picasso%27s_African_Period


A quote from the second link:

Influenced by the style and distortion of African art, Pablo Picasso and Georges Braque began working in the Cubist style around 1906, and the style remained popular among artists for several decades.

Comparisons between African and Picasso's art


 
Accidental resemblance, heightened by deliberately photographing the mask from a certain angle. The thinking and analysis that went into the Cubist picture is very different from that that lies behind the African mask. Not least in the fact that the African offering IS a mask whereas the Cubist is a flat painting.
 
Odd resemblances like that screw up a lot of art criticism.
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2011 at 18:39
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Over the next few months, Picasso began to flatten and simplify the Iberian figures in his works (247).
African art is neither flattened nor simple.  I don't deny that Picasso was influenced by African art, and indeed by pretty well any kind of art you can imagine, including Victorian sentimentalism (see the painting of the dying girl in the Picasso musuem at Barcelona). What's wrong is saying that CUBISM had anything to do with African art.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 01:29
Well, it is not what the BBC thinks. In this exibit they compare Picasso's and African art.





Source:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/06/africa_picasso_and_africa/html/1.stm





Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 01:30
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Not much to say at the moment. Just thought i would give pinguin a thumbs up for supplying links without even being asked or reminded to do so. Thumbs Up


Thanks Panther. And we aren't even discussing about the Americas in here LOL
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 01:53
The problem here, Penguin, is that your are taking one aspect of art criticism and inverting the process of artistic creativity. African art is irrelevant to Cubism as an artistic genre and regardless of the reams of paper generated by art critics in search of savanthood, Cubism is a phenomenon of the early 20th century avant garde in search of modernist simplification and abstraction. One could just as easily claim that Altamira and Paleolithic art carried as great an implication on Picasso and his use of simple line and color if one wishes. How about Cubism as destructuring the whole?

Edited by drgonzaga - 16 May 2011 at 20:23
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 01:57
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

African art is irrelevant to Cubism as an artitic genre ...


Yes. I bet it is irrelevant to an ARTITIC genre... wathever ARTITIC means LOL...

But the relation of African art with cubism is clear, as Picasso himself once said.

In other terms, European artistic pride should accept it is indebted to savage Africa Big smile
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 11:59
Many modern European artists have indeed been influenced by Africa. But that isn't the point.
 
What you and others are claiming is that African art led to CUBISM, and that coudln't be farther from the truth. Picasso himself anyway was only a cubist for a very short period, and arguably his interest in African (and other) artistic styles took him away from cubism, not towards it. Part of the attraction of the exotic styles lay with their religious/magical overtones, and there is nothng less mystical or ethereal than Cubism.
 
The prime mover in the development of Cubism from more traditional painting styles was undouibtedly Paul Cézanne, who shows no sign of African influence. The wikipedia entries at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubism and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_C%C3%A9zanne confirm that, and you might want to read another couple of examples at http://www.helium.com/items/777721-cezanne-and-his-influence-on-the-cubist-movement-in-art
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 12:12
Today, psycologists, researchers, health industry and others are also turning their attention towards so called primitive peoples to find knowledge and inspiration for a more healthy life style. Here is a little take about the approach to life that are shown by hunter gatherers, an approch that can be called Life as an adventure:
 
Quote Life as an adventure

There is an aspect to the HG (Hunter Gatherer) lifestyle that has received relatively little attention, an aspect that I have called life as an adventure: the life of a hunter-gatherer is a sequence of smaller and larger challenges, positive as well as negative, with the main characteristic that most challenges are unpredictable, of short duration, and of extremely diverse type and intensity. In contrast, agricultural and industrial societies prescribe a highly regulated life, where tasks and duties are predictable, constant, uniform, and rule-bound.

While HG challenges can be very stressful, e.g. running away from a bear, falling from a tree or crossing an ice-cold river, this stress is typically acute, i.e. intense and of short duration (seconds to hours). The rush of adrenalin is followed shortly by a pleasurable feeling of relief. The stress of modern life, on the other hand, is typically chronic, i.e. of low intensity but long duration (weeks to years). Examples are waiting for an evaluation report, preparing a PhD thesis, or enduring the daily traffic jams. This produces continuously high levels of the stress hormone cortisol, which tends to break down muscle, suppress the immune system and promote obesity, anxiety and depression.

The modern approach to tackling challenges is based on formulating far-away goals, detailed planning to reach them, discipline and regularity in implementing the plans, and a strong sense of duty in order to keep on track and stick to the plan. This entails a constant worry about whether you are doing the right thing.

Hunting and gathering, on the other hand, cannot rely on planning, as it is impossible to predict precisely where or when a significant opportunity (e.g. prey to catch, or fruit to collect) or danger (e.g. a predator) will be encountered. This leads to a much more spontaneous, opportunistic style of problem solving, characterized by features such as intuition, improvisation, exploration, adaptation, and play.

There is plenty of evidence that this more playful HG style of living is what our brain was actually selected for, and what it is best at. Moreover, applying this lifestyle stimulates brain and body to further develop themselves. On the other hand, suppressing it, by sticking to unflinching rules and duties, produces chronic stress and its attendant health problems. This means that we would be happier, healthier and more effective if we could live more in the HG way.

That may seem naive and utopian, but the present state of our science, technology and economy perfectly allows such a more relaxed attitude. The strictly disciplined following of rules may have been necessary to build up the wealth we have now. But nowadays our technology has become so powerful that we can delegate that type of activities to machines. It is precisely the following of formally defined rules that machines are good at, while the more creative, adventurous, intuitive aspects of problem solving are better left to humans.
 
 
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 12:27
I have no doubt that human beings evolved mentally and physically for the cnditions in which early hunter-gatherer societies emerged. There haven't been enough generations for the body to catch up with the changes in he environment caused by our own skills and talents.
 
However this piece offers no solution to the problem. We cannot - and even if we could hardly anyone except literal freaks wants to - return to a hunter-gatherer society.
 
We've done the arithmetic before. Hunter gathering can support no more than maybe a few dozens of millions of people. Nobody wants to be the ones who die.
 
A statement like 
Quote It is precisely the following of formally defined rules that machines are good at, while the more creative, adventurous, intuitive aspects of problem solving are better left to humans.
is of course no more than a soporific platitude.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 12:41
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I have no doubt that human beings evolved mentally and physically for the cnditions in which early hunter-gatherer societies emerged. There haven't been enough generations for the body to catch up with the changes in he environment caused by our own skills and talents.
 
However this piece offers no solution to the problem. We cannot - and even if we could hardly anyone except literal freaks wants to - return to a hunter-gatherer society.
 
We've done the arithmetic before. Hunter gathering can support no more than maybe a few dozens of millions of people. Nobody wants to be the ones who die.
 
A statement like 
Quote It is precisely the following of formally defined rules that machines are good at, while the more creative, adventurous, intuitive aspects of problem solving are better left to humans.
is of course no more than a soporific platitude.
 
We can not return to become hunter gatherers all of us, but we can learn from certain aspects of their life style and try to implement those learnings into our own lives.
 
And about the machine quote: there are certainly tasks that are rather repititive, and mentally and physically depleting that we can hand over to machines. And to focus peoples lives and work towards more fulfilling (mentally and physically) ways could indeed be possible with knowledge and foresight.


Edited by Carcharodon - 16 May 2011 at 12:42
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 13:24
Besides hunter gatherers also tribal agriculturalists and horticulturalists have contributed a lot regarding crops and methods of managing land. Today some of these methods are studied in order to improve agriculture in tropical countries and to find ways of land utilisation that are sustainable and environment friendly.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3608
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 14:31
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


We can not return to become hunter gatherers all of us, but we can learn from certain aspects of their life style and try to implement those learnings into our own lives.
 
And about the machine quote: there are certainly tasks that are rather repititive, and mentally and physically depleting that we can hand over to machines. And to focus peoples lives and work towards more fulfilling (mentally and physically) ways could indeed be possible with knowledge and foresight.

Do you grow your own potatoes?
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 14:56
I have grown many sorts of crops, including potatoes, but in relatively small scale.
 
I also collect wild edibles, fish and live with nature in other ways.
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 15:10
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Many modern European artists have indeed been influenced by Africa. But that isn't the point.
 
What you and others are claiming is that African art led to CUBISM, and that coudln't be farther from the truth. Picasso himself anyway was only a cubist for a very short period, and arguably his interest in African (and other) artistic styles took him away from cubism, not towards it.


The point is precisely this: Cubism was known in Africa before it was copied in Europe. Yes, the argument that Roger Bacon "invented" gunpowder, just because he commented about this new substance, it is very similar to this one.


Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 15:26
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I have no doubt that human beings evolved mentally and physically for the cnditions in which early hunter-gatherer societies emerged. There haven't been enough generations for the body to catch up with the changes in he environment caused by our own skills and talents.


That's an idea that lacks scientific support. It has only passed around 10.000 years since the first farming societies appeared. That's no time enough for people physically to "evolve" in the darwinian sense of the word.
Let me make it very clear. The only difference between a modern citizen of a complex society and a hunter gatherer is the EDUCATION. Nothing else. Genes has nothing to do with it.



Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 15:54
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
We can not return to become hunter gatherers all of us, but we can learn from certain aspects of their life style and try to implement those learnings into our own lives.
Then why dono't you just do that, instead of preaching to others?
Quote  
And about the machine quote: there are certainly tasks that are rather repititive, and mentally and physically depleting that we can hand over to machines. And to focus peoples lives and work towards more fulfilling (mentally and physically) ways could indeed be possible with knowledge and foresight.
I didn't say it wasn't true, I said it was a soporific platitude. Of course it's true. It's blatantly obvious. That is what makes it (a) soporific and (b) platitudinous.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 15:58
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
Then why dono't you just do that, instead of preaching to others?
 
I am actually learning from them, and I also try to practice some aspects of it.
 
We could all benefit from incorporating aspects of hunter gatherer life styles in our society.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 16:04
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Many modern European artists have indeed been influenced by Africa. But that isn't the point.
 
What you and others are claiming is that African art led to CUBISM, and that coudln't be farther from the truth. Picasso himself anyway was only a cubist for a very short period, and arguably his interest in African (and other) artistic styles took him away from cubism, not towards it.


The point is precisely this: Cubism was known in Africa before it was copied in Europe. Yes, the argument that Roger Bacon "invented" gunpowder, just because he commented about this new substance, it is very similar to this one.
Cubism was never known in Africa, at least until the twentieth century  after 1910 or so. No forerunner of Cubism was ever known in Africa. No African artsist (as far as can be told from available artefacts) ever dreamt of Cubist analysis or produced anything that corresponded to Cubist notions of composition (and decomposition).
 
Basically you have no idea what Cubism is, what it was trying to do, what art it produced, where it came from and how it developed. You're just treating it as though it was some generic term for all of modern art or all of Picasso's work. Cubism is a very specific method of analysiing shapes and synthesising images out of them. It's an intellectual movement that led to similar movements in non-graphic arts like poetry. (And prose - consider for instance Burroughs' The Naked Lunch and even Heller's Catch-22)
 
It has absolutely nothing to do with looking like some piece of African sculpture.  
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 16:06
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

I have no doubt that human beings evolved mentally and physically for the cnditions in which early hunter-gatherer societies emerged. There haven't been enough generations for the body to catch up with the changes in he environment caused by our own skills and talents.


That's an idea that lacks scientific support. It has only passed around 10.000 years since the first farming societies appeared. That's no time enough for people physically to "evolve" in the darwinian sense of the word.
Let me make it very clear. The only difference between a modern citizen of a complex society and a hunter gatherer is the EDUCATION. Nothing else. Genes has nothing to do with it.
 
That's what I said, if you bother to read it again.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 16:13
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Cubism was never known in Africa, at least until the twentieth century  after 1910 or so. No forerunner of Cubism was ever known in Africa. No African artsist (as far as can be told from available artefacts) ever dreamt of Cubist analysis or produced anything that corresponded to Cubist notions of composition (and decomposition).
 
Basically you have no idea what Cubism is, what it was trying to do, what art it produced, where it came from and how it developed. You're just treating it as though it was some generic term for all of modern art or all of Picasso's work. Cubism is a very specific method of analysiing shapes and synthesising images out of them. It's an intellectual movement that led to similar movements in non-graphic arts like poetry. (And prose - consider for instance Burroughs' The Naked Lunch and even Heller's Catch-22)
 
It has absolutely nothing to do with looking like some piece of African sculpture.  
 


It seems to me, this is a very ethnocentric way to see the development of mankind. As if only certain ethnic groups could be creative.
And I know it is a method of synthetising images, that was discovered in Africa before than in Europe. With respect to "intellectuals"... well, Africans also think, I believe.




Edited by pinguin - 16 May 2011 at 17:02
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13262
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 20:10
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

It seems to me, this is a very ethnocentric way to see the development of mankind. As if only certain ethnic groups could be creative.
Nothing of the kind. It just happens to be the way Cubism was developed. It had nothing at all to do with Africa. Cubism is a product of 20th century Europe (mainly France) just as Stockholm is in Sweden and kangaroos originated in Australia. You may want to claim that Africans invented towns and learned to hunt, but they didn't invent Stockholm and they didn't hunt kangaroos.
Quote
And I know it is a method of synthetising images, that was discovered in Africa before than in Europe.
No it wasn't and you have not one shred of any kind of evidence to show that it was. The best you can do is come up with an odd photograph or two (not even a painting) that freakily look alike. As if what it looks like is the issue.
 
We've seen what nonsense 'looking alike' can lead to in discussing racial issues.
Quote
With respect to "intellectuals"... well, Africans also think, I believe.
Of course they can. But what a pointless and irrelevant remark. Americans, Chinese, Indians, Scandinavians, Greeks and Arabs, among others, did not invent Cubism. But they can all think.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: MS, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2011 at 21:01
Discussing art, anyone's opinion is worth just what it means. We all have opinions and in the art world, they are mostly just like the appendage whereby we exclude waste products!

Ron
Back to Top
pinguin View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 15238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 02:37
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

No it wasn't and you have not one shred of any kind of evidence to show that it was. The best you can do is come up with an odd photograph or two (not even a painting) that freakily look alike. As if what it looks like is the issue.


Painting? Cubism in Africa was done on sculptures; not painting.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


Americans, Chinese, Indians, Scandinavians, Greeks and Arabs, among others, did not invent Cubism. But they can all think.


Europeans didn't either. They copied it from Africans.

http://quazen.com/arts/visual-arts/cubism-modernizing-the-art-of-africa/

Cubist artists were heavily influenced by African sculpture. However, Cubist works make significant departures from each of the African sculptures they are reputedly derived from, and as Robert Goldwater has observed, these differences are at least as significant as the parallels. To cite one of his examples, the Kota figure’s symmetry and frontality imbue it with a static quality that is entirely antithetical to the movement and energy of the dancer in Picasso’s Nude with Raised Arms.

So, it is not the same, but it is impossible to complete "de-Africanize" cubism, calling it some abstract idea created by Picasso from empty air.





Back to Top
SPQR View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 917
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2011 at 03:34
some of the blowdarts that come out of the Amazon are pretty gnarly... just saying.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

- Albert Einstein
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 7>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.